Related
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/reviews/2011/03/ars-reviews-the-motorola-xoom.ars
Just read through the whole thing. Exhaustive review. 10 pages in all. Lots of information, esp. for someone like me who is on the fence about the device.
Just don't read the braindead comments...
Sent from my Xoom using XDA Premium App
Thanks for this. I have been awaiting their review on the Xoom since they announced they were going to be doing an exhaustive one.
Only about halfway through, but I noticed something interesting. When discussing the browser and how most sites are still displaying the mobile version, he seemed to not have done any further searching as if he had, they probably would have found the "about:debug" fix. While I've heard that it isn't a persistent change, it still works out when in a pinch. Just thought it was odd they weren't aware/didn't do further searching on the issue.
Hm. So far this seems to be one of the better reviews out there (outside of the 10 pages of clicking...). Thanks for this.
Very good review. Ars Technica is one of the best Tech Blogs out there, and very rarely do their writers come across as fanboys of one OS or another. This review really confirmed to me that although the Xoom is a great start, it will likely be summer before I purchase an Android tablet to keep (mainly I'm waiting on flash, lower prices, microSD fixed, and more Honeycomb apps). I am very much in support of Honeycomb, but it's not time for me to buy yet.
Just bought a Xoom on Friday. Love it.
I started reading this review and I can't help to notice they say 7 hours of mixed use. I have had email notifications pushing, wifi on the whole time, and got 20 hours @ 50% battery left. This is leaving it on over night and playing games and messing with it for at least 3-4 hours straight, as well as syncing/transferring files, playing games like Words with Friends, etc. So I am very skeptical about this 14 hours of standby time. I got the device to 25 hours and it was still well over 30-35%.
pekosROB said:
Just bought a Xoom on Friday. Love it.
I started reading this review and I can't help to notice they say 7 hours of mixed use. I have had email notifications pushing, wifi on the whole time, and got 20 hours @ 50% battery left. This is leaving it on over night and playing games and messing with it for at least 3-4 hours straight, as well as syncing/transferring files, playing games like Words with Friends, etc. So I am very skeptical about this 14 hours of standby time. I got the device to 25 hours and it was still well over 30-35%.
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That's the issue with discussion on battery life. Unless it's explicitly mentioned what was done, when and for how long, it's hard to gauge exactly could be considered "intensive use" and look at battery life that way.
Ars rocks. Hopefully google will speed things up a bit in regards to the current disadvantages of the Xoom. Thus far, most of them can be cleaned up with a couple of patches. Hopefully it happens soon.
streetmapp said:
That's the issue with discussion on battery life. Unless it's explicitly mentioned what was done, when and for how long, it's hard to gauge exactly could be considered "intensive use" and look at battery life that way.
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Before charging mine for the second time yesterday when it was around 18%, I had reached 26-27 hours of use. This is after I played, oh I don't know, an hour of Gun Bros, an hour (if not more) of Hex Defense (I think that's what it's called), push notifications on from, gmail, Twitter, fb, browsing, etc. I literally didn't put it down for at least 4 hours straight at one point. The screen was on auto/a third brightness. I even listened to an entire album, so around an hour of music playing.
I really don't see how anyone can have the audacity to say it's standby doesn't last for at least 24 hours.
Did someone get an LTE equipped version that we don't know about? Otherwise I just don't see how that's possible.
pekosROB said:
Before charging mine for the second time yesterday when it was around 18%, I had reached 26-27 hours of use. This is after I played, oh I don't know, an hour of Gun Bros, an hour (if not more) of Hex Defense (I think that's what it's called), push notifications on from, gmail, Twitter, fb, browsing, etc. I literally didn't put it down for at least 4 hours straight at one point. The screen was on auto/a third brightness. I even listened to an entire album, so around an hour of music playing.
I really don't see how anyone can have the audacity to say it's standby doesn't last for at least 24 hours.
Did someone get an LTE equipped version that we don't know about? Otherwise I just don't see how that's possible.
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Same here, at 32% battery I was at 29 hrs of use. And this was after nonstop usuage. It was a new toy and I just played around on it for hours. Battery is definitely solid.
mazz0310 said:
Same here, at 32% battery I was at 29 hrs of use. And this was after nonstop usuage. It was a new toy and I just played around on it for hours. Battery is definitely solid.
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So apparently Moto has stumbled across something here - an Android device that can be used AND last longer than 24 hours without a problem!
Now if only every device could follow in its footsteps... Sure, the battery is bigger than a phone, but so is the screen, not to mention all of the stuff crammed in it (like a barometer I have no idea how to use yet).
The Bad:
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The software is not particularly stable or robust
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It's the first device running Honeycomb. Even with that said, I haven't had any crashes or freezes. It's running great for me.
Requires a proprietary power adapter and can't charge through microUSB
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While frustrating it's understandable. The iPad has a proprietary power adapter and doesn't charge through USB. Plus the Xoom charges pretty quick
Users have to rely on the MTP protocol to manage media on the device
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Agreed, Google needs to build their own "iTunes"
The built-in e-mail client has extremely poor protocol support
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I disagree, I love the built in e-mail client. Regardless their are plenty of other options for Android, and will hopefully be built new for Xoom/Honeycomb.
There are very few third-party Android applications designed for the form factor
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When the iPad came out, there were very few applications those first few weeks as well. It's a brand new OS.
The Google Books e-book application doesn't support side-loading content
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There are other options that do allow this.
Very few websites handle the Honeycomb browser's User-Agent string correctly
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You can change the UA string, or download a new browser. Hopefully it will be fixed in the future though.
The browser's support for advanced CSS3 features lags behind Safari's
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Haven't had any problems yet.
The browser issue is quite dissapoiting to me (as a web developer). I hoped for a full webkit browser with extensions. Maybe Firefox4 for Android will be better?
Magnesus said:
The browser issue is quite dissapoiting to me (as a web developer). I hoped for a full webkit browser with extensions. Maybe Firefox4 for Android will be better?
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Extensions would be nice, and I can't believe Google still hasnt fixed typing lag in the browser yet (on some sites)
While the charger on the Ipad is "proprietary", its the same charger that is used on other devices of theirs. Also the Ipad will charge from USB, but very slowly.
I'm disappointed in their review. It's not very good, and seems in some spots like they're looking for something critical to talk about, like the default email client: yeah, it's not great, but it's been not-great for a while now, and isn't a Xoom-specific issue; they talk about future-proofing issues with browser rendering, correctly stress that it's not a big deal right now, but then make a big deal of it in the conclusion.
The review's written like the author doesn't really care about the device. Engadget's review seems a lot more balanced compared to this one.
(PS. Lots of reviews keep talking about the lack of tablet apps. Wasn't this _exactly_ the same issue when the iPad 1 came out?)
Most of the sites are apple bias they just don't admit it
ydaraishy said:
I'm disappointed in their review. It's not very good, and seems in some spots like they're looking for something critical to talk about, like the default email client: yeah, it's not great, but it's been not-great for a while now, and isn't a Xoom-specific issue; they talk about future-proofing issues with browser rendering, correctly stress that it's not a big deal right now, but then make a big deal of it in the conclusion.
The review's written like the author doesn't really care about the device. Engadget's review seems a lot more balanced compared to this one.
(PS. Lots of reviews keep talking about the lack of tablet apps. Wasn't this _exactly_ the same issue when the iPad 1 came out?)
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ydaraishy said:
(PS. Lots of reviews keep talking about the lack of tablet apps. Wasn't this _exactly_ the same issue when the iPad 1 came out?)
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The iPad launched with ~2000 tablet apps. The Xoom launched with ~20
So what? The "non-tablet" apps still work great a la tapatalk
sangreal06 said:
The iPad launched with ~2000 tablet apps. The Xoom launched with ~20
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sangreal06 said:
The iPad launched with ~2000 tablet apps. The Xoom launched with ~20
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I think you mean 2000 apps that were compatible with the iPad in full-screen. Google made the mistake of labeling the Tablet section in the Market as Tablet Apps. They have since corrected it to be Featured Tablet Apps. Most Android apps work fine on the Xoom, even if they don't support the new Honeycomb UI guidelines. Since Apple just threw their existing UI onto a larger device, there isn't really a comparison here.
For me, primarily Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory
I play ET Pro mod and am an Owner of the Nbs Clan - One of the biggest ET Pro clans there is with 5 pub servers, 3 war servers and spanning 5 gaming platforms
Xfire me - HipKat2000
Wtf ET is still around? I thought that game would have died by now. Its so 2003. LoL.
CS 1.6 and source
TF2
Bad Company 2
MW:BO and Halo3/reach on xbox
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App
Rem3Dy said:
Wtf ET is still around? I thought that game would have died by now. Its so 2003. LoL.
CS 1.6 and source
TF2
Bad Company 2
MW:BO and Halo3/reach on xbox
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App
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Oh yeah, and going strong. It's just too good, too user configurable, a lot of maps, unlike COD and the community is strong.
Wanna hear something funny, I was on RTCW multiplayer the other night for the first time in YEARS, and THAT was still really active
MW2, Halo Reach & NBA 2k11. xbox 360
used to buy a ton of games but now I really just buy like 5 a year. (Anything halo/call of duty/2k sports related)
FIFA 2011, mw2, blackops, homefront
Enviado desde mi GT-I9000 usando Tapatalk
Used to be a big SOCOM player, but not so much these days. Same with FIFA and Madden. Huge NBA 2K player and anything Rockstar with the exception of the Midnight Club series. Lifelong Metal Gear (Solid) fan as well. Sadly I don't find that much time for teh video games these days.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App
I don't play any games on mine but does it count my daughter who is 6 has an Epic and loves Zoodles?
Battlefield Bad Company 1 & 2 and sometimes Red Dead Redemption.
Pokemon and yugioh on my evo
sent from my ummmm....I dunno
Ummm just css and bc2.. So looking forward to bc3
Halo reach just began forging I'm decent enough, cod black ops mw2 forza 3 halo 3
sent from my HTC evolution running a freshly baked gingerbread with the 4gs in it
Avid Gamer
REACH,BLOPS,RED DEAD ,TORCHLIGHT ,MAFIA 2,ASSASSIN CREED 2,BORDERLANDS,FALLOUT 3 DLC,DRAGON AGE 2,BAD COMPANY 2,METAL OF HONOR 2010 ETC .
I'M 32 INSTEAD OF WAISTING MONEY ON SHRINK I PLAY GAMES WHEN I'M STRESS .
Mostly Unreal Tournament 3. When I had my PS3 though I played GRID (best racing game ever) and some other FPS game I can't remember the name of lol
Zenonia 3 on Android and just recently placed the new Mortal Kombat. I bought, and has just arrived, Dragon Age: Origins ultimate edition. So I believe I have all the expansions. I'm hoping it will be a good time.
HipKat said:
Oh yeah, and going strong. It's just too good, too user configurable, a lot of maps, unlike COD and the community is strong.
Wanna hear something funny, I was on RTCW multiplayer the other night for the first time in YEARS, and THAT was still really active
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Gonna load up some et tomorrow!
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App
Cool, well, there's 3 steps (Depending on how long since you've played).
The game, the 2.6 upgrade, the 2.6b patch and then punkbuster.
You can still d/l that stuff, except the game itself all from my old clan's page www.et-grimclan.com
on my evo i play castlevania - symphony of the night and tony hawk pro skater 1 2 and 3 via psx4droid playstation emu. cuz its free
haven't played much lately, but mostly MW series, Battlefield. Used to play a decent amount of wow. (there. I said it. ) The later is the only one that I played a lot online without serious nerdrage when getting fragged by 12 yr olds.
I played WoW for about a week, then realized it was so totally boring, I wanted to shove nails in my eyes....
Bad Company 2 xbox 360
Well, after a lot of consideration I decided to "take the risk" and just placed an order for a 64GB Pixel C and keyboard. Google Canada had a promo going with a $150 discount so I took it. Years ago I used to be a fervent Android phone and tablet user and I said I would never go to Apple. I had Nexus this and that for many years and a Moto 360 and an Android settop box. Eventually I got sucked into the whole Apple ecosystem, first with my Macbook for work, and now I have two Macbooks at work, plus an iPhone, iPad (Pro), Apple Watch, iMac, and Apple TV and I must admit I love them all especially the way things (mostly) handoff across any device such as phone calls.
Despite all this I am still curious about the latest in the Android world and love the idea of the Pixel C hardware and am glad I can get access to the latest OS without waiting on some OEM like Samsung. I use my iPad Pro (12.9) with the Smart Keyboard a lot (and yes the Apple Pencil for annotating music and docs) and love the versatility it provides and yeah I use split screen and video in a pop-out window a lot so it will be interesting to compare Nougat on the Pixel C.
I bought a Nexus 10 as soon as they released, just over 4 years ago. I used it extensively for the 1st year, and then afterwards, only a bit here and there. I actually currently have it running a Nougat ROM, but it is quite sluggish nowadays... but for being 4 years old, I can't complain. It was a great device and I certainly got my money's worth, as it's probably the device I have kept and used the longest out of all my electronics.
I just bought a Pixel C on Swappa today as it seemed like the only suitable replacement in terms of build quality, software, and updates. I decided I wouldn't be picking up the keyboard as I didn't see much use for it since I bought the expensive Logitech K810 bluetooth keyboard a long time ago for the Nexus 10. I'm hopeful it's as fast as my Pixel XL in terms of usability, and lasts me another 4 years.
Mine just came today! Loving it.
The power button was frozen and hardly worked. I was initially bummed after having a N9 with horrible unraised buttons. But the PCs power button loosened up and now works fine.
The screen is incredible. I work in Hi Res imagery all day and have a Moto X Pure with it's 5.7" quad HD display and 520 ppi pixel density, I was initially worried I would not like the Pixel C's screen. Especially going back and forth at a glance between screens. But the screen is amazing. All the power and speed I need and being an easy rootable Google devices, that has gotten quick updates and I was sold.
Very happy with my choice. Unlocking and rooting it as we speak.
I can't wait to use DSLR Controller app with my Canon 5DS and use the pixel C as a live view camera screen. My N10 and N9 were nice but this Pixel C is incredible.
So I just got my Pixel C and keyboard today and got it all updated and setup. Initial thoughts:
Hardware, specifically the the combination of the tablet and the keyboard, sure is nice.
Sucks not having a fingerprint reader.
Tried the multiwindow thing using Taskbar. A bit klugey but definitely promising. Unfortunately mostly unusable for me as a number of the critical apps I use (including Google Inbox) refuse to do multiwindow even with the "force resizing" developer setting enabled. I'd really like to see this working for real. At least the split screen is pretty usable although a pity no popout video windows like on iOS.
It's pretty snappy but still no match for my iPad Pro in general response. Feels a bit sluggish by comparison.
I expect the main use case for me will be as smaller alternative to my iPad Pro 12.9 and for carrying around the office for Google Docs, Slack, e-mail, and Hangouts, where we use Google apps for most things.
Since this is a Google device I look forward to some reasonable life out of with many more OS updates to come.
Just wanted to add that I was wrong about some apps not working on forced floating window mode using Taskbar. I clearly had launched some of these full-screen previously and that's why they continued to launch full-screen. I've been using Nova but will try just using Taskbar for a while. In general though I'm finding the split-screen mode pretty usable and especially handy with the keyboard shortcuts to get to things I often use like the browser, calendar, etc. I I only wish these shortcuts were customizable. For example, I don't use Gmail for my work e-mail but use Inbox instead but the keyboard shortcut will only launch Gmail.
Update: Floating windows using Taskbar is still a bit unpredictable so it's back to Nova and split-screen when needed. Remix doesn't really look like it's worth trying. It would be great if Google could really get floating windows (including video) baked into a future release.
One of the few things I can't do with my Pixel C around the office, compared to my Macbook, is screenshare in a Hangout. Unfortunately Hangouts on Android doesn't support any kind of screenshare even from Google Docs which is a shame.
Omniswitch recents on Dirty Unicorn's 7.1.1 01-06-17 build for the Pixel C, really adds another dimension for multitasking. DU runs well and is definitely a daily driver.
It's finny to come across this thread today. I too had a Nexus 10 that just died. The ribbons that connected on the back of the battery broke.
I decided to pick up a Pixel C but in the process I was told of another alternative. The Lenovo Yoga Book.
I've had my Pixel C for about a week now and it is a great device. An excellent replacement for the Nexus 10. However, I'm hearing greater things about the Lenovo, so much so that I may end up returning the Pixel in favor of keeping the Yoga Book.
Yes, the Yoga Book doesn't have the same powerful CPU/GPU as the Pixel C nor does it have the brand behind it. But the keyboard/drawing/writing board that comes with it is fantastic apparently. It also has a microSD slot, Dolby Digital audio, a miniHDMI port (shame on you Google for not including this in the Pixel), considerably better Wifi, and a SIM card option. The Pixel C has none of these things.
It's supposed to be in the mail tomorrow so I'll have a rare opportunity to compare both tablets while in my possession. Perhaps I'll make a video about it. The least I can do is post back here about my findings.
Skullpuck said:
It's finny to come across this thread today. I too had a Nexus 10 that just died. The ribbons that connected on the back of the battery broke.
I decided to pick up a Pixel C but in the process I was told of another alternative. The Lenovo Yoga Book.
I've had my Pixel C for about a week now and it is a great device. An excellent replacement for the Nexus 10. However, I'm hearing greater things about the Lenovo, so much so that I may end up returning the Pixel in favor of keeping the Yoga Book.
Yes, the Yoga Book doesn't have the same powerful CPU/GPU as the Pixel C nor does it have the brand behind it. But the keyboard/drawing/writing board that comes with it is fantastic apparently. It also has a microSD slot, Dolby Digital audio, a miniHDMI port (shame on you Google for not including this in the Pixel), considerably better Wifi, and a SIM card option. The Pixel C has none of these things.
It's supposed to be in the mail tomorrow so I'll have a rare opportunity to compare both tablets while in my possession. Perhaps I'll make a video about it. The least I can do is post back here about my findings.
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I'm also very curious about the yoga book. Please post your comparisons.
So I've had the Yoga Book for about a day and have come to some conclusions about both devices. Generally speaking, the Pixel C is a much more hardware oriented device. It has a much better CPU, GPU. But that's where the pros stop for me. Out of curiosity I ran the AnTuTu 3DBench on both devices. Where the Pixel C came back with something like 30-45 FPS the Book only received between 10-15 FPS. The Yoga Book is not a hardcore gaming machine. The thing is, I don't use these devices primarily for gaming. If that's what you want to do then the Pixel C is what you want. If that isn't what you want to do and productivity is more important to you then please read on.
Here is what the Pixel C has that the Yoga Book does not have: CPU power, GPU power, durability, brand power,
Here is what the Yoga Book has that the Pixel C does not: A light up LED touch sensitive keyboard that quickly turns into a note taking drawing tablet (this includes the special pen that comes with it and the paper), microHDMI slot, SIM card slot, 4GB ram, lightweight, easily folds in half to hold itself up for Netflix/YouTube viewing sessions, multiple apps running at the same time, "windows" for each app so you can work with 2 or 3 apps on the screen at the same time, Dolby Digital sound (I never thought I would hear this quality of sound come out of a tablet, it's very good and I'm an audiophile. It doesn't beat out my 7.1 surround theater but in a pinch it does deliver 5.1 surround audio in a very unique way), speaking of sound the Pixel C is terrible in this capacity; either I got a bad device or the Pixel C has worse sound than the Nexus 10, your purchase comes with a free "sleeve" to carry your book in if you purchase from lenovo.
Needless to say I'm keeping the Yoga Book and sending back the Pixel C. Probably not going to win me any friends here but I wanted to be truthful. Don't get me wrong, the Pixel C is a great device... if I were to purchase it 6 to 12 months ago. With the new devices on their way up and nothing in the way of innovation going on I cannot recommend one. It's basically just an updated Nexus 10 with newer CPU/GPU and fewer ports.
The Yoga Book is innovative and useful. I am currently using it at work to administer 122 computers in 3 locations. I then take it into a meeting and write notes onto it which then transcribe to text. Saving everything I wrote into journals. Then bring it back to my desk, flip it up and watch Netflix.
If you want me to take pictures or if you have any questions let me know I'll respond for the next 24 hours or so.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Just checked today to see that I had the StarWars and Strangers things among other stickers for AR on my camera! Tried it and it works real smooth and fast!
Yeah real smooth indeed, in the cost of 1% battery every minute. Have had my fun with it for about 10 mins.
ithehappy said:
Yeah real smooth indeed, in the cost of 1% battery every minute. Have had my fun with it for about 10 mins.
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No kidding on the battery. I've not seen anything beyond a rogue or malfunctioning app drain it as fast as these stickers.
They're cool as a novelty and for specific situations (such as the Star Wars stickers when taking pictures before and after watching The Last Jedi this week), but it's not something I'll be using hardly at...if at all.
And before anyone asks, they won't show up in your camera until after you've updated to 8.1 and have had the two necessary apps from the Play Store installed (ARCore and AR Stickers - which will install automatically at some point).
Small children will be really excited.
Really 1% a minute that is pretty bad.
Mind you I can not see anybody spending too much time on it.
Create a picture with an overlay and call it a day .... may take a minute.
This does not seem original to me, apps have done this in the past
Picture. Video is more fun. If you put 2 stickers in they interact.
Just a fun playtoy.
I expect we will see other people make pacs for this.
I just got the pixel xl 2 after having op 5t (thanks god) but I don't see stickers on mine even though everything is updated?
I want to create a sort of track of multitasking on pixel 2/xl on the next updates.
I'm pretty sure that 4g of ram that's not enough on 2018 with Android Oreo , I have various mobiles with 6gb/8gb of ram and I can really see the differences regarding the ram management.
So i do love stock Android, I love fast updates , I love the really good camera that Google put on this, but 2018 with 4gb of ram? With the next updates we'll have more features so I'm thinking that is gonna be worse.
So I just you guys to track the next updates to see if we're gonna to have better ram management.
Otherwise I'm going to Neve ever buy Google pixel mobiles ,
They'll only fool me once.
lima002 said:
I want to create a sort of track of multitasking on pixel 2/xl on the next updates.
I'm pretty sure that 4g of ram that's not enough on 2018 with Android Oreo , I have various mobiles with 6gb/8gb of ram and I can really see the differences regarding the ram management.
So i do love stock Android, I love fast updates , I love the really good camera that Google put on this, but 2018 with 4gb of ram? With the next updates we'll have more features so I'm thinking that is gonna be worse.
So I just you guys to track the next updates to see if we're gonna to have better ram management.
Otherwise I'm going to Neve ever buy Google pixel mobiles ,
They'll only fool me once.
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I'm happy with this amount of ram. I can be driving getting navigation, listening to music, getting a phone call or sending a voice text and everything is perfectly smooth. I don't feel fooled
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
pixelsquish said:
I'm happy with this amount of ram. I can be driving getting navigation, listening to music, getting a phone call or sending a voice text and everything is perfectly smooth. I don't feel fooled
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Well that's 5 apps opened, every 2gb of ram mobile can do that too, but just try more apps and chrome with lots of pages opened and you'll see.
Don't get me wrong he loads apps very fast the same level of iPhone x with bionic 11
lima002 said:
Well that's 5 apps opened, every 2gb of ram mobile can do that too, but just try more apps and chrome with lots of pages opened and you'll see.
Don't get me wrong he loads apps very fast the same level of iPhone x with bionic 11
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Why will u leave pages open in chrome.... The max I ever used were 10... And didn't see Amy issues... Also I don't keep them open all the time... When dome... Close all tabs and move on....
I don't for the best of !e see any1 sane using more than 4apps at once ..
Well sometimes I do a lot of search I let opened and do my work and return later, and that with ,and,calls,insta, Twitter etc and with a total of maybe 12 apps and he'll began to reload.
And others mobile that I have I do the same and doesn't reloads often like that, I'm Tolking about 6gb or 8gb mobiles
Yup i have definetly noticed it
But it reloads quickly it doesn't matter but yea it is noticeable
Sent from my Google Pixel 2 XL using XDA Labs
What other mobile devices do you own that you are comparing the Pixel 2 XL to?
Sometimes i wonder what people did with so many apps left opened behind,
At most, when doing some image and video campaign edit to be posted on social media or web, i'll only have 5-6 apps opened. And it still leave around 200-300 MB of RAM left,
With today's 4G speed, i dont feel the need of keeping that many app opened anymore,
As long as my draft of notes/article writings and my photo edits stay intact in the background for around 30-60 minutes, am fine
Why should i keep my game opened if i already finished the round ? Or youtube when am not actually watching or listen to RED ? Anything unused should be killed right away anyway.
Used to have 6GB in OP3 but never found it totally used. Well maybe, i gonna need it, in next one or two years. But maybe not as well