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Okay, I'm assuming you all bought your hero's for what it was capable of when you bought it, seeing as there were no confirmed updates from HTC and even Google scheduled yet, so why does the majority get annoyed when their phone misses out on the latest 2.2 update? It still has all the features you bought it for. Any update at all is a positive, no update is neutral since your phone didn't lose anything, it just didn't gain anything either. Besides the fact that our Hero's already have basic flash support and are ahead of most devices in functionality just because it was ahead of its time when it got released?
I am somewhere in the middle: somewhat content with my Android 1.5 Hero and somewhat annoyed at the lack of updates. I think the trouble all comes down to convergence. Let me toss a couple thoughts your way. Generally speaking, in the recent past people have:
1) Paid full price for a computer (laptop, desktop, etc) and then promptly go out at get what ever Internet service provider they want (cable DSL) etc. The computer works on any network.
2) Paid a reduced price for mobile phones for the trade off of signing a contract and being tied to a particular provider. In many cases, only certain phones are available on certain networks. This is the complete opposite of the computer case in #1
3) Expected that their computer will be upgradeable (for a fee) over the years, at least until the hardware becomes obsolete. I know I've had XP, Vista, and Windows 7 on the same machine.
4) Expected that if they wanted new features on a phone, they would need to get a new phone.
Now the phones and computers are, too some extent, converging into one device. If I use my Android phone to check email, twitter, facebook, etc and never make voice calls - is it really a phone? No, it is just another Internet connected device for which my expectations are typically that I can upgrade the device until the hardware becomes obsolete. I didn't necessarily say that should be free, but it should be possible.
Another aspect that people expect of their computers, is that they can load virtually any application designed for that OS. Even today, most applications (if not all?) written for Windows 7 still run on XP. With Android, the applications seem to have been tied to the OS. For example, with my 1.5 phone I still can't use Google Voice search or Google Goggles? Why? My phone has a camera and a microphone, but for some reason you need to have 1.6 for them. Same for the free Google Navigation. You need to have a later version - just to run an application.
Again, I am somewhere in the middle. I have been VERY pleased with my HTC Hero. At the same time, I sure would like Google Voice search, Navigation, multiple gmail accounts, etc. I might even be willing to pay to update it (much like Apple makes people pay for iPod Touch updates). But shelling out $600 for a new phone (I buy unlocked - which is much cheaper for me in the long run) for those features does not seem worth it.
The lesson learned might be to always by the Google phone (i.e. Nexus One or whatever comes next). Google are responsible for pushing out those updates and it seems to happen fast!
I bouth my Hero after I saw the HTC tweet that they are working on the 2.1.
Update from 2.1 to 2.2 is a natural function of Android - it's OTA friendly. If a manufacturer declares Android, it declares everything what goes with it. If they don't want to spend time on such minor updates as 2.2, they should declare that as well: Android without updates. And they have not. So people are angry for not getting what they expect. And the expectatons are absolutely reasonable. That's why I will NOT buy any other HTC device. I learned that they dont't treat us, customers, fairly. They are going to do the same exact thing with the Desire as well. Not going down that path again.
I personally haven't heard one person moaning about not getting 2.2.
But people are expecting 2.1 due to no updates being given on the OS since the handset was released. Hero users were promised a long time ago that we would be getting 2.1 due to 1.6 being skipped, whereas other, lower spec models had that update.
You don't know what functionality will be added two updates later, so not having them is neutral, no one is oblidged to update their products and they can be discontinued whenever they wish. Does it matter? No, you got the phone based on the features it had when you bought it, the phone doesn't all of a sudden get worse because it didn't get an update.
I for one will purchase another HTC device when I'm done with my hero, simply because they deliver the best product with the best feature set regarding android, if updates are slow oh well, I buy phones for what they are capable of at the time of purchase since I can't look into the future, and neither can you.
So - all you set out to do with your original post was anger people and not take into account other peoples point of view? I took some time to provide some rational arguments.
Dont you expect to get updates for your computer? Graphics Drivers? Network Drivers? Operating Systems? Surely you don't just by a new computer everytime you need that functionality. You expect either the OS Vendor or the computer manufacturer to provide updates - both to create new features and fix bugs.
Bug fixes yes, but as they said those will be provided, and no I don't expect additional features, sure I'll be happy with new features but I didn't expect them. Even though phones are getting closer and closer to being computers they aren't.
How are they different?
seshmaru said:
Okay, I'm assuming you all bought your hero's for what it was capable of when you bought it, seeing as there were no confirmed updates from HTC and even Google scheduled yet, so why does the majority get annoyed when their phone misses out on the latest 2.2 update? It still has all the features you bought it for. Any update at all is a positive, no update is neutral since your phone didn't lose anything, it just didn't gain anything either. Besides the fact that our Hero's already have basic flash support and are ahead of most devices in functionality just because it was ahead of its time when it got released?
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I was happy with it when I got it, it was after all the flagship HTC device of 2009. But then about a month later 1.6 came out, and HTC said they were working on an upgrade to 1.6. This was delayed, then 2.0 came out and HTC suggested they would upgrade to 2.0 instead. The same happened with 2.1. But you are correct that they never really announced any upgrades officially, it was just announced on there twitter stream. Which is half the problem really. They kept suggesting that they were working on an upgrade, but kept pushing it back. Had they just done the 1.6 upgrade and then stopped, I don't think half as many people would be annoyed.
What HTC did wrong here was to give inconsistent information, along with delays and then kept junking what they had done and telling people they were working on something better. As a result, people kept hanging on, and being told that if they just waited a little longer then they would get an upgrade. If HTC had just come clean and updated us with offical announcements, or had stuck with 1.6 and been honest about a lack of improvement, then people wouldn't still be waiting.
Also, if you look at the iPhone model, they may charge for upgrades but the original 2G iPhone has only just gone out of support. Given that the Hero was the 2009 flagship Android device, and was still being sold way into 2010, its a little hard to stomach the idea that its out of support so quickly.
tl;dr HTC kept pissing us around and making us wait just a little longer, when it could have just said "not going to happen, here is 1.6, sorry" and this is annoying.
Are we buying a piece of hardware which is only going to be bug fixed, or are we buying hardware which is going to be updated for a certain amount of time even after they're no longer selling it?
In my opinion we're not just buying hardware, we're buying a software package behind it. That software needs to be updated, otherwise some major killer feature in a slightly newer version isn't possible for you to get - such as Google navigation, can turn a 6 month old phone which has the hardware capability into a device which is so frustrating.
I expect my device to last around 2 years, various networks offer contracts on these devices for 2 years, I think it's fair to expect updates to smart phones for that duration. I wouldn't expect every feature to be supported (eg. no live wallpaper if the device can't handle it), but it should be updated so it's possible to run the latest apps on it.
The phone manufacturers need to be honest on how long they plan to support these things, because it is becoming an issue. People feel abandoned if they pay hundreds of pounds on a device and never get an update, whilst other users pay the same amount and get multiple updates. If HTC doesn't want to release updates then that's fine - I'll just consider it before buying the device.
clobber said:
I am somewhere in the middle: somewhat content with my Android 1.5 Hero and somewhat annoyed at the lack of updates. I think the trouble all comes down to convergence [snip].
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Nice argument. I hadn't thought about the convergence issue. You might well have hit the nail on the head.
I see your point, but if you had gotten any other non android smartphone besides the iPhone you wouldn't be getting significant feature set updates either.
But some people bought the hero because HTC said they were working on 2.1 months ago, others bought it because it was advertised "Android" and assumed you'd get Android updates. Others bought it because it's a good phone, but to the first two groups of people, the promise of new features was a reason for buying.
People are annoyed because HTC won't provide an update they've said they're working on (2.1), which seems to be a marketing interference to get as many people to buy a new device, rather than keep using their all one.
Also annoying is that we're stymied from having a generic OS made with drivers for all sorts of mobile hardware, but that's more of a philosophical annoyance.
I'm ticked off at the lack of update, not because I think I deserve an update per se, but more because I think I deserve all the features to work properly on my phone, and they don't.
And it's not like I could have tried it before I bought it either...
I've been an HTC user since 2003 and have always promoted the brand, but I don't think I'll get another one after this.
Android 5.0 release date
Google has announced that its next developer conference - Google IO - will take place from May 15 to May 17 2013, a month earlier than 2012's June dates. Given that Google announced Android 4.1 Jelly Bean at 2012's IO conference, it's not unreasonable to expect to see Android 5.0 at this year's event On 31 January, a Google IO showing of Android 5.0 looked more likely when screengrabs of a Qualcomm roadmap were leaked, showing Android 5.0 as breaking cover between April and June 2013.
Android 5.0 phones
Rumours of a new Nexus handset started trickling in during the third quarter of 2012, as we reported on 1 October 2012. There was speculation that this phone would be sporting Key Lime Pie, but sources who spoke to AndroidAndMe correctly claimed that the handset, which turned out to be the Google Nexus 4 would be running Android Jelly Bean.
While the Nexus 4 didn't appear with a helping of Key Lime Pie, speculation that we reported on 21 January 2013 suggests that the Motorola X Phone is the Android 5.0-toting handset that will be revealed at Google IO. According to a post on the DroidForums website, the phone will also feature a virtually bezel-free, edge-to-edge, 5-inch display.
The same leaked Qualcomm documents cited above also made mention of a two new Snapdragon devices, one of which will be, unsurprisingly, a new Nexus phone.
Android 5.0 features
For 24 hours, it seemed as though the first kinda, sorta confirmed feature for Android 5.0 was a Google Now widget, which briefly appeared in a screenshot on the company's support forum before being taken down. As it was so hurriedly pulled, many people assumed it was slated for the big five-o and accidentally revealed early.
As it happened, the following day, on 13 February 2013, the Google Now widget rolled out to Jelly Bean.
So while we wait on Key Lime Pie features to be revealed and scour the web for more Android 5.0 news, TechRadar writer Gary Cutlack has been thinking about what we want to see in Android 5.0 Key Lime Pie. Hopefully the new mobile OS will feature some of these things...
Performance Profiles
It's bit of a fuss managing your mobile before bed time. Switching off the sound, turning off data, activating airplane mode and so on, so what Android 5.0 really needs is a simple way of managing performance, and therefore power use, automatically.
We've been given a taste of this with Blocking Mode in Samsung's Jelly Bean update on the Samsung Galaxy S3 and the Note 2 but we'd like to see the functionality expanded.
Something like a Gaming mode for max power delivery, an Overnight low-power state for slumbering on minimal power and maybe a Reading mode for no bothersome data connections and a super-low backlight.
Some hardware makers put their own little automated tools in, such as the excellent Smart Actions found within Motorola's RAZR interface, but it'd be great to see Google give us a simple way to manage states.
Another little power strip style widget for phone performance profiles would be an easy way to do it.
Better multiple device support
Google already does quite a good job of supporting serious Android nerds who own several phones and tablets, but there are some holes in its coverage that are rather frustrating.
Take the Videos app which manages your film downloads through the Play Store. Start watching a film on one Android device and you're limited to resuming your film session on that same unit, making it impossible to switch from phone to tablet mid-film.
You can switch between phone and web site players to resume watching, but surely Google ought to understand its fans often have a couple of phones and tabs on the go and fix this for Android Key Lime Pie?
Enhanced social network support
Android doesn't really do much for social network users out of the box, with most of the fancy social widgets and features coming from the hardware makers through their own custom skins.
Sony integrates Facebook brilliantly in its phones, and even LG makes a great social network aggregator widget that incorporates Facebook and Twitter - so why are there no cool aggregator apps as part of the standard Android setup?
Yes, Google does a great job of pushing Google+, but, no offence, there are many other more widely used networks that ought to be a little better "baked in" to Android.
Line-drawing keyboard options
Another area where the manufacturers have taken a big leap ahead of Google is in integrating clever alternate text entry options in their keyboards. HTC and Sony both offer their own takes on the Swype style of line-drawing text input, which is a nice option to have for getting your words onto a telephone. Get it into Android 5.0 and give us the choice.
A video chat app
How odd is it that Google's put a front-facing camera on the Nexus 7 and most hardware manufacturers do the same on their phones and tablets, yet most ship without any form of common video chat app?
You have to download Skype and hope it works, or find some other downloadable app solution. Why isn't there a Google Live See My Face Chat app of some sort as part of Android? Is it because we're too ugly? Is that what you're saying, Google?
Multi-select in the contacts
The Android contacts section is pretty useful, but it could be managed a little better. What if you have the idea of emailing or texting a handful of your friends? The way that's currently done is by emailing one, then adding the rest individually. Some sort of checkbox system that let users scroll through names and create a mailing list on the fly through the contacts listing in Android Key Lime Pie would make this much easier.
Cross-device SMS sync
If you're a constant SIM swapper with more than one phone on the go, chances are you've lost track of your text messages at some point. Google stores these on the phone rather than the SIM card, so it'd be nice if our texts could be either backed up to the SIM, the SD card, or beamed up to the magical invisible cloud of data, for easy and consistent access across multiple devices.
A "Never Update" option
This would annoy developers so is unlikely to happen, but it'd be nice if we could refuse app updates permanently in Android 5.0, just in case we'd rather stick with a current version of a tool than be forced to upgrade.
Sure, you can set apps to manual update and then just ignore the update prompt forever, but it'd be nice to know we can keep a favoured version of an app without accidentally updating it. Some of us are still using the beta Times app, for example, which has given free access for a year.
App preview/freebie codes
Something Apple's been doing for ages and ages is using a promo code system to distribute free or review versions of apps. It even makes doing little competitions to drum up publicity for apps much easier, so why's there no similar scheme for Android?
It might encourage developers to stop going down the ad-covered/freemium route if they could charge for an app but still give it away to friends and fans through a promo code system.
Final whinges and requests...
It's be nice to be able to sort the Settings screen by alphabetical order, too, or by most commonly used or personal preference, as Android's so packed with a huge list of options these days it's a big old list to scroll through and pick out what you need.
Plus could we have a percentage count for the battery in the Notifications bar for Android 5.0? Just so we know a bit more info than the vague emptying battery icon.
(Source)
Okay I wanted to drop this in about video chat. You say that Google doesn't have one right? Of I remember correctly Google talk has video.
Sent from my PC36100 using xda app-developers app
jlmancuso said:
Okay I wanted to drop this in about video chat. You say that Google doesn't have one right? Of I remember correctly Google talk has video.
Sent from my PC36100 using xda app-developers app
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This one is built in,you dont have to look for it and install it from 3rd party.
Diablo67 said:
This one is built in,you dont have to look for it and install it from 3rd party.
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Google talk has built in video chat, you don't have to install anything its preloaded on every android phone for as long as I can remember.
I like to break stuff!
-EViL-KoNCEPTz- said:
Google talk has built in video chat, you don't have to install anything its preloaded on every android phone for as long as I can remember.
I like to break stuff!
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Most of the gapps i ever installed didnt,but yes on a sense rom you can find it and maybe an official ICS or JB that is meant for a certain phone.So i should have reworded that.You are correct though.
I know this doesn't apply to all of us but as someone who is a heavy android game player waiting on my Nexus 6 has got my worried that about half my games that i have invested hours and hours and hours into will not be playable on this device.
Now sure some over time will be updated to work again. But plenty of poor devs (like EA) can't be counted on to update games that are a few years old. And it's my belief Google should make every new android update somehow programed with a way to make older apps work. Granted i know we are moving to art. But certainly there could have been a creative programming solution.
I think how great a game like Dead Space would look on a Nexus 6 and unfortunately i will never probably see it.
What makes you think that any of your games will have issues with the nexus 6?
Couldn't tell you which game but a buddy of mine can't play one on his, nexus 7 2nd gen updated to lollipop, anymore.
But no I don't think google should make everything backwards compatible. At a certain point that's going to hinder progress when you can't change certain things because (this is overboard but) apps meant for 1.5 wouldn't work anymore.
seh6183 said:
What makes you think that any of your games will have issues with the nexus 6?
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Most Square Enix games explicitly say they don't support ART.
Hand76 said:
I know this doesn't apply to all of us but as someone who is a heavy android game player waiting on my Nexus 6 has got my worried that about half my games that i have invested hours and hours and hours into will not be playable on this device.
Now sure some over time will be updated to work again. But plenty of poor devs (like EA) can't be counted on to update games that are a few years old. And it's my belief Google should make every new android update somehow programed with a way to make older apps work. Granted i know we are moving to art. But certainly there could have been a creative programming solution.
I think how great a game like Dead Space would look on a Nexus 6 and unfortunately i will never probably see it.
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It is not the responsibility of the developer of the OS to ensure third party games work with their updated API's, that is solely on the app/game developers. If they don't want to put the work in, then you are just out of luck unless someone programs some kind of emulator. It is what is required on desktop OS's for compatibility, I see no reason to change that for the mobile world.
Retaining legacy support for extended periods just leads to junk like Windows XP continuing to be used despite Microsoft dropping support.
It is inevitable and necessary for backward compatibility to break at some point of time otherwise all phones would still be running on android doughnut.
I understand it should be the developer that fixes it. But being most are not going to care (Ea/Gameloft) if it's a slightly older tile. It would be nice if Google had a plan b for us.
Take ms Windows. All the newer ones 7/8 have a way to run software in an older compatability mode.
Bottom line v is some companies have 40-50-60+ apps in their android library and growing. We are going to expect them to update all of them every year Google makes changes??? Or are we just going to slowly keep losing everything over time?
Your gripe is with the app developers not google. Also you say every year when google updates. That's not accurate. This is the first time in a long time that google has implemented something that would break app compatibility.
seh6183 said:
Your gripe is with the app developers not google. Also you say every year when google updates. That's not accurate. This is the first time in a long time that google has implemented something that would break app compatibility.
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That's not accurate. When Kitkat was released i would say about 30-40% of the games I had had to be updated to work on it. Most were fixed in months i don't think we're going to be as lucky this time
Hand76 said:
That's not accurate. When Kitkat was released i would say about 30-40% of the games I had had to be updated to work on it. Most were fixed in months i don't think we're going to be as lucky this time
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Right and when jellybean came out nothing broke. So my statement stands.
Solution. Don't buy software from devs you know will not support their product.
Skripka said:
Solution. Don't buy software from devs you know will not support their product.
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^^^^^^^^THIS/thread^^^^^^^^
OP, the BEST thing you and other people like you could do is vote with your wallet and not purchase these company's products and to tell them exactly why. No one NEEDS any of these games but these companies NEED your money.
AndrasLOHF said:
^^^^^^^^THIS/thread^^^^^^^^
OP, the BEST thing you and other people like you could do is vote with your wallet and not purchase these company's products and to tell them exactly why. No one NEEDS any of these games but these companies NEED your money.
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Further, if you don't mind a history lesson, supporting ancients OSes long past their prime is what nearly killed Apple. Their OS X was such a smash hit in large part technically because they finally severed software support for years and years of previous OSes. People squawked initially and being cut off, but then didn't mind the dividends in performance.
It looks like Marshmallow is following the usual pattern of Android "x.0" alpha release to the public, followed by "x.0.1" beta release with initial defect ('bug") corrections starting with Nexus beta testers (I.e. Nexus users in general).
Reading about the MM 6.0 problems on MXPE, I'm sitting out the 6.0 alpha testing on the sideline with LP 5.1.1. Most trouble-free phone I've had yet, and I don't yet need the only compelling feature I see with MM on the MXPE (T-Mobile Band 12 support).
Any noises yet about MM beyond 6.0.1? (I know I can look for this elsewhere too, but thinking maybe some of the XDA community may have inside info from the Android community.)
TIA...
The marshmallow update give me some new features and better battery life (though I do own the X Style, not pure). Unless you are dead set on being intentionally obtuse, then this isn't considered an alpha update.
Also the 6.0.1 update is quite minor, the largest change being some ART performance improvements, the rest is adding bands to the Nexus line and some emoji's: http://www.androidheadlines.com/2015/12/google-posts-android-6-0-1-changelog.html
I know the label "alpha" is not not the official label for something like 6.0. But with so many substantial defects, and multiple forthcoming revisions to correct those defects a certainty, that's really what it is IMO. Maybe "public release alpha" would be a better description, since pre-release revisions go through even more defect-ridden levels including pre-release alpha, prior to public release.
Similar situation with previous Android versions, and in fact most software foisted on the public these days (I'm looking at you, Microsoft and Apple). Look at Lollipop and the multiple public release revisions it took to iron out most of the substantial defects, finally, with 5.1.1.
6.0.1 is not just "...some ART performance improvements, the rest is adding bands to the Nexus line and some emoji's...", it also includes defect corrections. (Bluetooth, anyone?) And if the changelog doesn't list a significant number of defect corrections, that doesn't necessarily mean it is already polished at 6.0.1. The fragmented Android ecosystem and separation between Google, phone manufacturers, carriers, and users guarantees a plethora of various non-trivial defects in the ecosystem, many of which Google will address only slowly or even never for most phones.
For example, the memory leak defect in LP was not fixed until 5.1.1. How may revisions and months did that take? How many phones still run pre-5.5.1 with this defect?
One reason I bought the MXPE was the idea that it would be one of the first to get the updates. That turned out to be overly optimistic. It looks like Nexus is the only one still close enough to the source to get timely updates, and it also looks like Google is not pursuing Android defect corrections with any kind of urgency at all nowadays, maybe because the hardware ecosystem is becoming way too diverse to adequately support any more (or maybe because the profits roll in no matter what). Motorola phones, with the Moto alterations to Android, outsider status with carriers, and now hollowed-out Motorola support, appear to be no closer to adequate Android support from Google than any other non-Nexus phone.
"Obtuse"? A "bug" is a euphemism for a defect. Let's stop being obtuse, and call it what it is.
Any other info also appreciated.
You're being obtuse by insisting that we're all public alpha testers.
You obviously have no idea about software development, nor about Android Open Source development. Not your fault, but running your mouth is.
You bemoan the memory leak fix took several revisions to fix. So, you think that Google dedicated the whole team to fixing that one bug? What then? No other bugfixes or features are introduced in the meantime? The likely case is (and this is from experience) that bug took some revisions to fix, in the meantime, Google were also pushing ahead with other fixes. Regardless to what the uneducated (about SW development), throwing 15 developers onto one problem doesn't solve it any quicker. 5.0.1 came, adn 5.0.2 came, then 5.1 came in the meantime. While that memory leak was being worked on, more releases come fixing other things. Be grateful they didn't listen to you and leave it at 5.0 for several months while they fixed one issue.
Whatever bluetooth fixes that you think are in 6.0.1 are pure fantasy, because none exist in AOSP 6.0.1: http://aosp.changelog.to/android-6.0.0_r5-to-android-6.0.1_r1.html <-- That's the FULL changelog of commits between 6.0.0_r5 and 6.0.1_r1.
It is not Google's job to fix a problem in anything other than their own devices. At all. Google's job is to make AOSP run smoothly on Nexus devices and release the source. Samsung, HTC, LG, Motorola et al all take the source code, just like CM, AICP, Slim and the rest do, and make modifications for their devices, using the sources given to them by their hardware partners and themselves. So if BT works in Nexus devices, but not others, then it's not Google's problem (usually). An AOSP issue will persist several devices, including Nexii devices.
Google also have taken on the quite large undertaking of monthly security updates for their devices, which I can tell you will be taking up some of the development teams time (it's what, 3-4 months into that project?).
No software ever released on this planet comes without bugs and issues. This is software development. You can check the status of AOSP development here: https://android-review.googlesource.com/#/q/status:open and feel free to download, code and submit your own features.
MattBooth said:
You're being obtuse by insisting that we're all public alpha testers.
You obviously have no idea about software development, nor about Android Open Source development. Not your fault, but running your mouth is.
You bemoan the memory leak fix took several revisions to fix. So, you think that Google dedicated the whole team to fixing that one bug? What then? No other bugfixes or features are introduced in the meantime? The likely case is (and this is from experience) that bug took some revisions to fix, in the meantime, Google were also pushing ahead with other fixes. Regardless to what the uneducated (about SW development), throwing 15 developers onto one problem doesn't solve it any quicker. 5.0.1 came, adn 5.0.2 came, then 5.1 came in the meantime. While that memory leak was being worked on, more releases come fixing other things. Be grateful they didn't listen to you and leave it at 5.0 for several months while they fixed one issue.
Whatever bluetooth fixes that you think are in 6.0.1 are pure fantasy, because none exist in AOSP 6.0.1: http://aosp.changelog.to/android-6.0.0_r5-to-android-6.0.1_r1.html <-- That's the FULL changelog of commits between 6.0.0_r5 and 6.0.1_r1.
It is not Google's job to fix a problem in anything other than their own devices. At all. Google's job is to make AOSP run smoothly on Nexus devices and release the source. Samsung, HTC, LG, Motorola et al all take the source code, just like CM, AICP, Slim and the rest do, and make modifications for their devices, using the sources given to them by their hardware partners and themselves. So if BT works in Nexus devices, but not others, then it's not Google's problem (usually). An AOSP issue will persist several devices, including Nexii devices.
Google also have taken on the quite large undertaking of monthly security updates for their devices, which I can tell you will be taking up some of the development teams time (it's what, 3-4 months into that project?).
No software ever released on this planet comes without bugs and issues. This is software development. You can check the status of AOSP development here: https://android-review.googlesource.com/#/q/status:open and feel free to download, code and submit your own features.
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t
No new or useful information there. Thanks anyway, despite the ad hominem. I guess that comes with the territory (forums).
Yep, the Google-Android-(independent hardware makers) ecosystem is seriously flawed. Too much disconnect between the OS owner (Google), the hardware makers, the carriers, and the customer. And the first three in the chain (not including the customer) have different incentives/disincentives, and there are a bazillion hardware variations, of course it is broken. We know all this.
Reminds me of the original PC/Windows mess. Except worse because the carriers interpose an additional dysfunctional layer hindering OS updates/support. (Before anyone says "just DIY with one of the many available ROMs, I started this "Q" thread about stock MM, not third party ROMs.)
Still hoping for any useful information on anything happening to fix the MM defects, to get an idea when it might be past public beta and worth installing to MXPE.
TIA...
Tinkerer_ said:
t
No new or useful information there. Thanks anyway, despite the ad hominem. I guess that comes with the territory (forums).
Yep, the Google-Android-(independent hardware makers) ecosystem is seriously flawed. Too much disconnect between the OS owner (Google), the hardware makers, the carriers, and the customer. And the first three in the chain (not including the customer) have different incentives/disincentives, and there are a bazillion hardware variations, of course it is broken. We know all this.
Reminds me of the original PC/Windows mess. Except worse because the carriers interpose an additional dysfunctional layer hindering OS updates/support. (Before anyone says "just DIY with one of the many available ROMs, I started this "Q" thread about stock MM, not third party ROMs.)
Still hoping for any useful information on anything happening to fix the MM defects, to get an idea when it might be past public beta and worth installing to MXPE.
TIA...
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What ad hominem? Your uneducated state affects your ability to understand the nature of Android and software development. It's a perfectly legitimate response to your position. You lack the ability to understand and therefore your argument is flawed. I'm not attacking you, I actually tried to give you some insight into how it works, but you're not really interested and would rather insist on this "public beta" bull.
As far as fixing any "defects" you suppose, you haven't actually listed any so no-one is going to be able to help you with temporary work around without a list of what you feel is broken. I also showed you the changelog, so you can do your own homework to see if your supposed defects are fixed in 6.0.1.
The various hardware configurations doesn't even matter because Android is built to deal with it. So long as the hardware vendors of chips and modules support them properly and give out functioning binaries to OEM's, or proper source code, it's irrelevant. The exact opposite of what you said is true, Google has a very close relationship with it's partners (anyone signed up to their Google programs, to preinstall Google apps). The problem is carriers, who really shouldn't have a say in software on the phones, but that seems to be a chiefly North American problem.
Google doesn't need to have any connection to Android users as customers. Google does not sell Android, therefore you are not Google's customer unless you use a Nexus phone. Google sell the Google Experience, with the Nexus. You are Motorola's customer, and you are using Motorola's branched version of Android. Google doesn't owe Motorola any fixes or patches for their device. Motorola must maintain their own device tree and maintain their own relationships with their partners.
EDIT:
Also, Motorola's problem is resources. They have four version of the Moto X 2015 to deal with, three versions of the Moto X 2014, the new X Force, then the various versions of the G and E to deal with, along with two smart watches, and so forth. Their line up is increasing whist I imagine their development team is not. There was outrage (rightly so) when news broke that the Moto G 2015 wasn't getting the MM update, despite being a couple of months old, and Motorola listened and OTA's are rolling out.
I am asking if anyone can offer any info on anything being done to move toward MM revision with the many significant defects of 6.0 corrected. Read the forums, there are way too many defects with 6.0, it is patently a de facto public alpha, and we are tracking the usual pattern where it takes 3 to 5 revisions before an OS major rev is ironed out enough that upgrading will not cause more problems than it fixes.
There are always excuses made for why there are so many defects in software. There is a euphemism for "defect" everybody uses, "bug". Everyone has been making excuses for so long about shoddy workmanship and inadequate testing and correction of software, with the "bug" euphemism to minimize the reality that these are defects, that we are all just to suppose to accept systems ridden with faults without complaint. It's unacceptable. It can be done better. Part of why it doesn't get better is because everybody says "that's just the way it is, deal with it". With mountains of byzantine excuses and even ad hominem attacks (as here).
This thread was not started to start a tit for tat ad hominem back and forth, nor to post long essays detailing excuses for the pathetic status quo of the fragmented Android ecosystem with respect to defect causes and distributions. It was started looking for any info about work being done to fix the stock MM defects. Still seeking info.
TIA.
You should probably check the definition of ad hominem. There was no attack on you as a person, just pointing out that your uneducated state with regards to knowledge about software development affects your ability to call judgement on this.
But you haven't listened to a single word I've said and still maintain a shoddy position, so I would suggest to anyone else who reads this to simply ignore you as a troll.
Tinkerer_ said:
It looks like Marshmallow is following the usual pattern of Android "x.0" alpha release to the public, followed by "x.0.1" beta release with initial defect ('bug") corrections starting with Nexus beta testers (I.e. Nexus users in general).
Reading about the MM 6.0 problems on MXPE, I'm sitting out the 6.0 alpha testing on the sideline with LP 5.1.1. Most trouble-free phone I've had yet, and I don't yet need the only compelling feature I see with MM on the MXPE (T-Mobile Band 12 support).
Any noises yet about MM beyond 6.0.1? (I know I can look for this elsewhere too, but thinking maybe some of the XDA community may have inside info from the Android community.)
TIA...
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I think we'll close this debate. There are no real "Android" insiders on XDA, so asking for update info which is privy to Google is perhaps somewhat futile.
On a related note, XDA have a few dedicated "Android Fora", such as this complete Category where non-device specific discussion and indeed conjecture takes place. Perhaps you could take a look there and see what transpires?
Thanks
Ok, first off, I DID do a search for this, and did not find any pertinent information, so please don't jump my case about using search.
I have often wondered why so many apps get so many updates from the Play Store, some getting updates 3 or 4 times in one week! Is there really that much behind the scenes development going on? Are they just changing the ads or something? Is Play Store updates broken so you get the same update multiple times? It does not seem to be just the free apps though. I have a number of paid apps that do the same thing. If any of you devs could shed some light on this, I would appreciate it. It bothers me when I see an app getting so many updates so quickly, as I wonder what is going on with it that requires those constant changes.
Regards,
--KB
KB_Thailand said:
Ok, first off, I DID do a search for this, and did not find any pertinent information, so please don't jump my case about using search.
I have often wondered why so many apps get so many updates from the Play Store, some getting updates 3 or 4 times in one week! Is there really that much behind the scenes development going on? Are they just changing the ads or something? Is Play Store updates broken so you get the same update multiple times? It does not seem to be just the free apps though. I have a number of paid apps that do the same thing. If any of you devs could shed some light on this, I would appreciate it. It bothers me when I see an app getting so many updates so quickly, as I wonder what is going on with it that requires those constant changes.
Regards,
--KB
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In short, one of the reason are manufacturers, apps have sometimes problems and bugs with specific phones, for example App 1 works good on Xiaomi, but has bugs on Samsung, developer fix some problem for Samsung but breaks something on HTC phones, and so on, it's sometimes endless loop. And sometimes the same app can be working excellent on Samsung A, but buggy on Samsung B, or App FC when you have some other app installed, but works good if you don't have that other app for example.
Second is that there is 0 app that hasn't got some kind of bug.
Thanks Nitro. As a retired software engineer it just disturbed me that the apps seemed to be so unstable. I guess it makes sense though as they do run on a large number of different devices, with a large number of different iterations of the base software. I also would think that with the shear number of devices out there, actual testing on the various devices would be pretty hard unless you were a rich man. That is where the guidelines from Google come in I guess. You write to the guidelines and hope the manufacturers didn't mess with that portion of the base Android system. Heck of a way to make a living.
In any event, thanks again for the reply, and thanks to the devs that try to make usable apps in a chaotic system! :good:
--KB