Database Users

Free Windows upgrades?

Hello everyone.
I've always wondered why tablets/phones get free software upgrades (Android 3 to 4), while Computer OS's do not. (Windows Vista to 7).
Considering Windows 8 will be both a tablet and a desktop OS, will updates to windows 9 (or whatever they decide to call it) be free, for tablets at least?
It does not sound possible, but if Microsoft phones got free upgrades, why not their tablets?
Please share your thoughts on this.

Micro$haft?
I dont think so.
do you know how much money Bill Gates has? Yes, not enough!
It would be nice if we got a "Mac" type deal $29 upgrade , etc.

I thought Bill Gates retired.. Oh well..
And I wouldn't set Apple as a model for pricing.

DarkSeL said:
I thought Bill Gates retired.. Oh well..
And I wouldn't set Apple as a model for pricing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I second that brother... And I think some people have not even the slightest idea about the philanthropy Bill Gates is involved in... Plus, if PC OSes are upgraded freely then we would be at mercy of hardware providers to determine whether our hardware deserves an OS upgrade or not (as it is in the case of all smartphones today)...

gururoop said:
I second that brother... And I think some people have not even the slightest idea about the philanthropy Bill Gates is involved in... Plus, if PC OSes are upgraded freely then we would be at mercy of hardware providers to determine whether our hardware deserves an OS upgrade or not (as it is in the case of all smartphones today)...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The question remains.. Will W8 tablets be treated like computers or phones.

android is a bad example given that the money is made through advertising and selling your info.
a more reliable comparison is Apple and iOS. WP7 and the iPhone are limited use devices,
OSx and Windows on there respective hardware are computers with a significant use attached to them, the same can be said for Windows Tablets, however they are different from Apples ipad offerings which is just a bumped up iphone OS, the tablet is (at least we believe. x86 - yes, ARM - ?) its a fully functional computer
So to your question, a Windows Tablet, is a computer (probably), and thus will likely follow computer upgrade cycles. and ipad is an extension of its iphone and would follow the phone update model.
As to how much it should cost, well that's up to MS, but before folk start raving about Apples "cheap" updates, its worth pointing out that developing an OS with a fixed hardware design will be much easier (cheaper) to do than for an almost infinite number of hardware designs
Lets be clear on something, NOTHING is done without there being money to be made in one form or another, Googles model is not as transparent as Microsofts but it still makes a mint, and whilst it doesn't do that by charging you directly it does use you as its *****

Its a nice though but not going to happen.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA

chrisrotolo said:
Micro$haft?
I dont think so.
do you know how much money Bill Gates has? Yes, not enough!
It would be nice if we got a "Mac" type deal $29 upgrade , etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The difference between Microsoft and Apple is that Apple already ripped you off with their expensive hardware so they can afford it to upgrade the OS for 29$.
Microsoft needs to get their profits from software only, that's why it's a bit more expensive than OSX upgrades.

DarkSeL said:
Hello everyone.
I've always wondered why tablets/phones get free software upgrades (Android 3 to 4), while Computer OS's do not. (Windows Vista to 7).
Considering Windows 8 will be both a tablet and a desktop OS, will updates to windows 9 (or whatever they decide to call it) be free, for tablets at least?
It does not sound possible, but if Microsoft phones got free upgrades, why not their tablets?
Please share your thoughts on this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no they wont be, in the same way that OSx updates are chargable
you need to remember that everyone needs to make money, even the beloved Android "free" OS, android makers and OEMs make their money by selling your soul to anyone who has the money to pay for it, MS makes money by charging you directly, both are valid business models but one is more "open" than the other, the irony is that the "open" OS is actually the least open when it comes to the business modelm both have good points both have bad points.
The Windows phone portion will remain "free" to a point, but tablets and desktop versions are very much computer OSs, not a phone OS unlike its android and iOS cousins
edit, Boom! 1700 posts

Donny1987 said:
The difference between Microsoft and Apple is that Apple already ripped you off with their expensive hardware so they can afford it to upgrade the OS for 29$.
Microsoft needs to get their profits from software only, that's why it's a bit more expensive than OSX upgrades.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everyone looks at Mirosoft thinks that they are cheating big arse sum of marney from you guys.
Microsoft just ended their support for XP like few months ago, which was release about 10years ago.
For just $29, Apple only provide 11 updates on that whatever cat OS and then just kiss your old cat goodbye on support on your whatever latest iPhones or Pads.
So Apple OS = cheap????
Sent from my Milestone using Tapatalk 2

DarkSeL said:
Hello everyone.
I've always wondered why tablets/phones get free software upgrades (Android 3 to 4), while Computer OS's do not. (Windows Vista to 7).
Considering Windows 8 will be both a tablet and a desktop OS, will updates to windows 9 (or whatever they decide to call it) be free, for tablets at least?
It does not sound possible, but if Microsoft phones got free upgrades, why not their tablets?
Please share your thoughts on this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a good point, and potentially a future issue for Microsoft. Apple can afford to give software updates away for free because they make so much money off hardware sales, iTunes and the App Store. The updates for the iPod Touch weren't always free though, I remember paying for a few. Google can afford to give the OS away for free because the OS is just a vehicle for ad revenue etc.
To my mind though, the parallel between PCs and smartphones/tablets isn't an issue yet (maybe one for the Windows 9 launch?). iOS and Android are updated to new versions annually, Windows is more like every 3 years. Windows support continues long after the next version is released. The oldest device to get iOS5 was the iPhone 33GS (now 3 years old) and the oldest device to get the ICS update was likely (I don't actually know the answer) much younger. While iOS and Android contain a limited amount of legacy hardware support, Windows will run on very old computers indeed. Windows 8 will run on hardware less powerful than my smartphone (actually, that could be an interesting experiment at the end of the year; which OS will run well on lower hardware; the latest Android build, or Win8 RT?).
I can see consumer perceptions towards paying for software shifting though, and that could well cause Microsoft issues in the future, especially when Apple inevitably stop charging for OS X upgrades.

chrisrotolo said:
Micro$haft?
I dont think so.
do you know how much money Bill Gates has? Yes, not enough!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bill Gates has been giving his money away as charity for the past 10 years.

satchef1 said:
It's a good point, and potentially a future issue for Microsoft. Apple can afford to give software updates away for free because they make so much money off hardware sales, iTunes and the App Store. The updates for the iPod Touch weren't always free though, I remember paying for a few. Google can afford to give the OS away for free because the OS is just a vehicle for ad revenue etc.
To my mind though, the parallel between PCs and smartphones/tablets isn't an issue yet (maybe one for the Windows 9 launch?). iOS and Android are updated to new versions annually, Windows is more like every 3 years. Windows support continues long after the next version is released. The oldest device to get iOS5 was the iPhone 33GS (now 3 years old) and the oldest device to get the ICS update was likely (I don't actually know the answer) much younger. While iOS and Android contain a limited amount of legacy hardware support, Windows will run on very old computers indeed. Windows 8 will run on hardware less powerful than my smartphone (actually, that could be an interesting experiment at the end of the year; which OS will run well on lower hardware; the latest Android build, or Win8 RT?).
I can see consumer perceptions towards paying for software shifting though, and that could well cause Microsoft issues in the future, especially when Apple inevitably stop charging for OS X upgrades.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think desktop OS upgrades will change in the near future, theres too much work within a desktop OS, yes the kernel may be the same or similar but there is an awful lot more to a desktop. which is why paying for upgrades in justified so long as upgrades bring new functionality.
a Phone OS is very different its a limited use function and the revenue stream is from sale of apps and market penetration and adverts. Personally I think if windows RT is similar to the desktop in functionality then it will follow the desktop model, if it is a limited use device then it will more likely follow the phone OS model.

That's because you're paying the lisencing for the product. Microsoft is a software company, they make very little hardware (And most of their hardware is just comprised of peripherals and concept products). They have to make money somehow, so they do this by selling the lisencing to their OS. Mac is exactly the same, $30 and upgrade. Windows just charges more though because their OS upgrades take longer to come around and usually take a bigger step forware (I'm not dissing Mac by saying it's slow to evolve or anything, I'm just saying Mac takes slow and steady steps, while Windows takes a large leep, but only every few years).
iOS used to cost money to upgrade on iPod Touches, but this generated very little revenue, and mostly irritated iPod Touch users, so Apple stopped. As only Apple makes devices that use Apple OS's, there's no licesing fee.
Andriod is 100% open scource and free, meaning anyone, including you, can just go and download it free. They don't charge licesing fees, instead, making money off increased ad traffic.
Windows Phone does charge a liscensing fee, meaning every WinPhone device sold, the manufactor has to pay a small fee to Microsoft. Of course, to stay competitive, they don't charge upgrade fees.
Going back to conventional x86 desktops, when you buy one at a store, the license for that computer has already been paid for by the maker, so if you build your own, you have to pay Microsoft for a license. If you wish to upgrade, you must pay for the right to use that new OS, through the means of paying for a new license or upgrade fee.
I imagine Windows RT/WoA wil follow this same principle, because it's a more full fledged OS (But it can't run legacy programs). Of course, I would imagine the upgrade fee would be much smaller, but we can't know, becuase this will be the first time Windows has ever supported an ARM device.

Looks like B&N Caved to MS

Barnes & Noble and Microsoft have settled their patent litigation, and moving forward, Barnes & Noble and Newco will have a royalty-bearing license under Microsoft’s patents for its NOOK eReader and Tablet products.
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http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/Press/2012/Apr12/04-30CorpNews.aspx

Wait what... Reading article
Edit: does this affect us at all?

brendan10211 said:
Wait what... Reading article
Edit: does this affect us at all?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Probably not with current devices, but to me, it means that future devices are very likely to be windows based instead of android based.

I don't think that it will switch immediately to Window-based,
but no good can come from inviting an 800 pound gorilla to our private party.

I think M$ is more looking to bundle the Nook reader App with Windows 8 and leverage B&N's store for the books.
I really can't foresee M$ being able to scale down Windows 8 to run with any efficiency on an e-reader like the NST.
And M$ investment amounts to 17.6% so they are not in a controlling position, just a favorable one.
I don't see it as a bad deal for B&N as it gives them some capital to shore up the new company as well as get a sticky piece of patent litigation off their backs.
It still remains to be seen how it all plays out. Remember M$ did pretty much the same thing with Apple and look how that turned out for them.

From the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17896534
The Windows 8 operating system is specifically designed to work with touch screens and mobile devices like tablet computers.
Its Metro user interface can host small dedicated applications like Nook to sit on top of Windows.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Yes, a new Nook Color tablet device could be built for Windoze 8, but they would have to ramp up the hardware on an e-ink reader to run that.
Which would raise cost of manufacture which translates to a higher consumer price.
There are already complaints about the $40 price increase for the new Nook GL (which I love btw, got mine today...woot!). The Flexiglow tech is still a new technology and early adopters have to pay a premium for using it in their devices.
How much more would people pay for an e-ink capable of running Windoze 8?
Then there is the Windoze 8 interface. M$ is hard bent on ensuring that the OS remains the same core across all hardware platforms. That would not be an insignificant hurdle for an e-ink reader.
Could it happen? Sure, it's not impossible. But I think there are more than few tough barriers to pass to get there.
How much money will it cost and is M$ willing to spend it?
And then there the fickle consumer.
B&N currently has a working formula. It could use some tweaking, but do you totally scrap that for Windoze 8?
Ok, I probably rambled too much, back to reading in the dark!

B&N CEO Lynch doesn't immediately foresee a Windoze 8 Nook either:
Fortune: Will we see Microsoft engineers and other Redmond-based talent actively working on new Nook devices and software?
Lynch: Currently, we've not communicated anything related to the roadmap about any hardware collaboration on Nook. Nook, as you know, uses open sourcing. Microsoft is obviously very entrenched in Windows. On the reading software side, in reading technologies, they're making interesting integrations into Windows, potentially Office. That kind of work has already started. Definitively yes.
Fortune: With the announcement, there's a lot of speculation now about what can come out of this partnership, like a potential Nook based on Windows 8, as opposed to Android. What can you tell us about the possibilities there?
Lynch: If you look at the content sort of flow from authoring tools, obviously, Microsoft is one of the leaders, if not the leader in authoring tools with Word, PowerPoint, Excel, their Office franchise, all the way through the transaction buying merchandising, sale or cloud management of the content. You can see us working across that.
So again we haven't announced anything specifically, but imagine an integration where an information worker, student, author, consumer, creates something in Office and has it immediately published for sale through the Nook book store. It starts to open a lot of exciting possibilities.
Full article including adding NFC: http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/05/01/nook/

why all this speculation focusing on a Nook device of the future running on full Windows 8 when the perfectly natural OS would be a Win Phone 7 variant?
not to mention the OS that e-reading and font smoothing was marketed on first and the foundation of what xda-dev was made for - WINDOWS CE, which is still in develoment as an embedded OS.
I for one welcome a CE Nook, no rooting required!
also, coincidentally, MS just filed a patent app for e-ink 2nd screen to display interactive info. I'd also love to slave my NST to my Windows 8 as a separate touchpad with display!

Personally, I don't want to see a Windows 8 Nook for one reason: Price.
As it is the price for nooks is mostly hardware what with Android being a free OS and not requiring things such as royalties (being opensourced and all) if it all goes to Windows 8 I see the price going up as you'll not only be paying for the hardware, but you'd also be paying for the Windows 8 OS on the device, which would no doubt push the price point higher cause you know M$ has to have their cut. Instead of a $99 e-ink reader we'd probably be looking at $199 or $299 if say it were possible to switch the current Nook Touch to Windows 8 (it isn't but still). The higher end hardware which would be required for Windows 8 will mean that will also push the price point higher than it needs to be. Also replacing current devices with all W8 devices means they've effectively killed their App Market and since I can't see M$ playing nicely on that front they'd lose a source of income.
Another thing is, I can't see M$ playing nicely with people who want to create their own UI to replace whatever UI is on the tablet. Meaning that while you could run a Nook app on the device, you'd still be able to access everything else. So this could be a good point getting away from the restrictive UIs Nooks are known for if they went Win8.
Personally I think B&N needs to stick to android based devices, possibly releasing a W8 Tablet separately that doesn't replace any of their current devices. This would allow for them to continue making lower priced devices for customers who don't want all the bells and whistles of a higher end device.

Yes.
Thanks for an interesting read, guys
If any products are replaced, I'm pretty sure people will stop buying them.. Even though Windows 8 is cool and all, M$ is pushing too hard.

brendan10211 said:
Yes.
Thanks for an interesting read, guys
If any products are replaced, I'm pretty sure people will stop buying them.. Even though Windows 8 is cool and all, M$ is pushing too hard.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mainly because the Windows Phone 7 interface was pretty much the only one they came up wtih by themselves. They're acting like a kid that just learned a new word that's fun to say; all they want to do is show everyone the word and try to get them saying it.

That sounds like me..
Thanks for the great analogy.

GabrialDestruir said:
Personally, I don't want to see a Windows 8 Nook for one reason: Price.
As it is the price for nooks is mostly hardware what with Android being a free OS and not requiring things such as royalties (being opensourced and all) if it all goes to Windows 8 I see the price going up as you'll not only be paying for the hardware, but you'd also be paying for the Windows 8 OS on the device,
...
Another thing is, I can't see M$ playing nicely with people who want to create their own UI to replace whatever UI is on the tablet. Meaning that while you could run a Nook app on the device, you'd still be able to access everything else. So this could be a good point getting away from the restrictive UIs Nooks are known for if they went Win8.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
again... Windows CE is still in developement for embedded devices and runs on way more anemic ARM hardware than the NST and about the same as the WP7 OS. Plus their development is already paid for and very reliable and very developer friendly. remember, the core of XDA-DEV was built on modding Win CE and changing the UI. I could certainly see that for an eInk budget device.
yet, the future of the Nook Color / Tablet could be running on the Win 8 ARM OS, I agree with you there, and that would open up the device more than B&N does out of the box. target price of a full Intel based Windows 7 and 8 tablet is already $500. they are totally aiming for the $200 - $300 market with their ARM version of 8. I bet price would remain competitive.
although if you look at the aquisition of Skype, MS has been very slow to change anything or absorb them into other products. MS may do absolutely nothing to the Nook hardware line if it's working.

[Q] Few general questions - before I buy tablet now

Hi (sorry for length of the post!),
I am on the verge of getting new tablet.
I have good, old iPad 1 but unfortunately it is more toy than tool.
I have decided that device like Transformer (hybrid tablet/laptop) would be perfect for what I do. Till few days ago I was all set to wait for such a device with Win8 on-board... but now I am not so sure anymore.
Perhaps you will be able to help me make a good choice.
Currently during day I use at least two PC's with Win7 (and Windows Live services) + Google Chrome and iPad.
As much as I like iPad I hate that it can not sync (in full) like two PC's and especially Chrome (not to mention the lack of keyboard).
Because as I wrote I use Live services I was thinking that by the end of the year I should get a Windows Phone device (few of the things I need to know about WP are here, can you help? : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1643996), Win8 for desktop and tablet with Win8 onboard.
From what I read Win8 will be much more "closed" when compared to prev. vers of Windows.
Questions are:
1. Will both x86 and ARM version force user to use only MS app store (no more free, unrestricted download from the internet like today? - can it really be true???)
2. Will Win8 have geo-restrictions like currently Windows Phone (got your Live ID assigned to USA -> than you can not get any software from App Store UK. Even iOS is less problematic here).
3. Flash support? Got myself nice VPN... at the moment Hulu works perfectly on Win7 and via Splashtop on my iPad. What about Windows 8?
4. As I wrote I use Google Chrome as a browser. It is quick, it syncs in a very good way, etc. I can not get it for iOS (one of the reasons to drop the iOS)... I can have it on Android tablet (although I am not sure about sync capabilities) but I was hoping I will be able to get the proper, full Chrome for my Win8 desktop and tablet.
5. VPN support on Windows8? Any? Will I be able to access Netflix (as I do now) ob both Win8 desktop and Win8 tablet.
6. Do you think tablet with Win8 will differ in a way system is open (I am not sure if I use correct words for that) between x86 and ARM ver? I do understand that if I will get ARM device all software I will get will have to be "wrote" specifically for ARM and opposite... (unless x86 will have no problem in emulating ARM as it will be more powerful platform).
7. In another words... is it worth to wait for Windows 8 on tablet or I will do most of the stuff I want on Android ICS device?
All insights are welcome!

Sry, didn't have the time to answer all of your questions but hopefully some parts will be clearer in some minutes ^^
1.) no, x86 will work just like a win7 pc nowadays. Not quite sure, but ARM will be restricted to the new marketplace/store (correct me if I'm wrong)
2.) Don't know for sure, but I think it will connect your Live Accout (in W8 called Microsoft Account) will have a connection to your location, but just for the store - not for downloaded applications.
3.) On x86 (tablets) I don't see any problems in using flash. ARM may not be having flash at release, but I think it'll come fast.
4.) If Google is willing to release Chrome for Windows 8 RT (the ARM version), you will be able to install it on all your W8 devices. But you could buy a x86 tablet and the desktop version of Chrome will run.
So, have to go...
Some last words: Tablets with x86 are just like a desktop pc for win7 with a touchscreen, a new look and feel and in one little case

galtom said:
1. Will both x86 and ARM version force user to use only MS app store (no more free, unrestricted download from the internet like today? - can it really be true???)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Metro apps are restricted, and the ARM version primarily only supports METRO apps. So an ARM version will force you unless you: Have a developer account, Are on a Domain, or Use an items signed by a trusted cert provider and make some registry settings.
x86 has the same restrictions on METRO apps, but can run any x86 item (all existing windows applications) without restriction.
galtom said:
2. Will Win8 have geo-restrictions like currently Windows Phone (got your Live ID assigned to USA -> than you can not get any software from App Store UK. Even iOS is less problematic here).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Likely yes. You would need to use a proxy to access other stores.
galtom said:
3. Flash support? Got myself nice VPN... at the moment Hulu works perfectly on Win7 and via Splashtop on my iPad. What about Windows 8?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x86 IE10 yes, I use Hulu on my 8 device right now. Metro IE10 will not support plugins (no flash, silverlight, or active x). You will need an 'app', or a site supporting HTML5 for IE10 to work.
galtom said:
4. As I wrote I use Google Chrome as a browser. It is quick, it syncs in a very good way, etc. I can not get it for iOS (one of the reasons to drop the iOS)... I can have it on Android tablet (although I am not sure about sync capabilities) but I was hoping I will be able to get the proper, full Chrome for my Win8 desktop and tablet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It works fine on an x86 tablet. It will be up to Google on whether or not they provide a Metro version. At this time there should be no restriction in place to prevent them from doing so if they desire to.
galtom said:
5. VPN support on Windows8? Any? Will I be able to access Netflix (as I do now) ob both Win8 desktop and Win8 tablet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x86 yes. Metro requires an App. I use this today on Windows 8.
galtom said:
6. Do you think tablet with Win8 will differ in a way system is open (I am not sure if I use correct words for that) between x86 and ARM ver? I do understand that if I will get ARM device all software I will get will have to be "wrote" specifically for ARM and opposite... (unless x86 will have no problem in emulating ARM as it will be more powerful platform).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x86 is completely open. ARM is restricted to things that install on ARM, and in most cases to things that are acquired through the METRO store (except for the exceptions listed in item 1
galtom said:
7. In another words... is it worth to wait for Windows 8 on tablet or I will do most of the stuff I want on Android ICS device?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are going to buy a convertible windows 8 tablet, so it can be a laptop & a tablet, or if you are going to buy an x86 tablet, I would consider waiting for a windows 8 compatible device (expect sometime late summer / early fall.)
If you are going to buy a Win RT tablet, it is up to you, but I would probably buy a 200-300 android tablet, and then sell it and buy a windows one if/when it becomes a compelling device for you.

most of your questions have been answered, but im going to add a question (for you) an answer it
Should I buy a tablet now?
No, is the answer.
MS and its hardware partners have made some very interesting gains in the touch technology, not to mention Intels gains in performance / low watt CPUs.
if you buy now you will be missing out on some great tech especially around touch screens so it really would be a bit daft to buy just now, you also run the risk of it not supporting Win 8 completely as well. Seriously, wait it out until Win 8 comes, if you must get an older current gen device (perhaps price constrained?) then it will be cheaper then too

First of all thank you all for your time (and answers).
Since (as usual) answers to questions raise new questions... we... here we go
hanswurst24 said:
1.) no, x86 will work just like a win7 pc nowadays. Not quite sure, but ARM will be restricted to the new marketplace/store (correct me if I'm wrong)
2.) Don't know for sure, but I think it will connect your Live Accout (in W8 called Microsoft Account) will have a connection to your location, but just for the store - not for downloaded applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. I am not so sure... and I think even for MS "all this" might be a problem.
On one hand they should not change "philosophy" of Windows because no one would swap Win7 to Win8 if they would have to buy all software form 1 (or few) stores only).
On the other hand Windows Phone is showing the way they want to/would like to go (which company would not want to make extra cash on apps the way Apple, Google and Amazon are doing??? - to find balance will not be easy).
All this shows (in my opinion) another problem - system fragmentation. Only iOS is safe as Apple has full control over system and devices (but THANK GOD - is not that stubborn on geo/market restrictions as Google or Ms).
If you remember how confusing for customers it was with Vista and Win7 versions imagine what will happen now?
To be honest (if those versions RT and x86) will differ so much in terms of practicability, options, openness, functions of hardware I cant imagine how everything will be introduced, market and advertised in order for "Mr Average Joe" to comprehend and not run back next day to the shop with complaints - about system, software, compatibility, etc...
Looks like a pure nightmare and I think this is the reason (they do not know what to do exactly with all this mess) we have so little information on how it all is going to work and c0-work with each other :-(
2). You see... as far as I know if I would buy Windows Phone (or RT Win8 tablet - by the end of the year) I will be limited to apps available only in my location. If Live ID is assigned to UK than forget (even free!) apps for US market (and others). In my case it is a disaster... For my pleasure and entertainment I use apps (on iOS and Android [if I can find them - it is way more difficult than on iOS] from UK, US and Poland.
Installing Netflix or BBC iPlayer on a dive form other parts of the world on iOS is very simple and does not require any hacking/rooting/jaibrakes/etc/.
On Android one has to know how to root the device and than simply search the net... not alwys finding what he/she wants.
On Windows Phone if you create new Live ID (like on iOS), switching those equals HARD RESET of the device.
If that will be the case with Win8 RT... that is a very bad news! Even if x86 ver will have less restrisctions those news will be bad for ARM manufacturers as they will get like "handicapped" system when compared to x86... - would you be happy about it if you were Nvidia or Qualcomm?
hanswurst24 said:
3.) On x86 (tablets) I don't see any problems in using flash. ARM may not be having flash at release, but I think it'll come fast.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe it will, maybe it will not... question are:
- will it at all?
- how difficult it will be to install (root? bootloader? other restrictions? unauthorized software when compared to what your Live ID has bought from the shop?)
- how many AVERAGE people will want to go into all this mess?
michiganenginerd said:
Metro apps are restricted, and the ARM version primarily only supports METRO apps.
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Click to collapse
So... if there will DESKTOP mode on Win8 RT don't you think it will limit its general appeal. If it will be so restricted, without desktop mode... why would you want it over Android?
michiganenginerd said:
x86 has the same restrictions on METRO apps, but can run any x86 item (all existing windows applications) without restriction.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, if you are right... this move from MS would mean that hardly anyone will buy ARM version of the system -> ARM devices with Win8 will not sell. If that would be the case what would be the point for ARM ver of Win8 in first place if no sane manufacturer would invest money to produce devices that can not compete with x86 devices because of system they have. Unless they are very, VERY cheap (looking at cost of Android devices is not making me hopeful in this matter) or if people do not much care for the system but for batt. life - again why would you want Win8 over Android or (well established) iOS. It is worth to remember that it will be even more difficult to win customers who already own Android or iOS device - there is a good chance that they have spend quite a lot of cash so far on apps.
QUESTION (off topic): if you got iOS, purchased apps are assigned to account, not device -> meaning if you buy an app for iPad 1 you can still use it on iPad3. How dose it work on Windows Phone and Android devices?
michiganenginerd said:
Likely yes. You would need to use a proxy to access other stores.
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Click to collapse
Proxy/VPN is not a problem - problem is in Live ID that is assigned to a specific country during creation and registration. In this case your IP does not matter. It is the same with Google Play. Once you have your Google account you can connect to the store form any location but it will not allow you ti install software not in your market (even if you can see it).
michiganenginerd said:
x86 IE10 yes, I use Hulu on my 8 device right now. Metro IE10 will not support plugins (no flash, silverlight, or active x). You will need an 'app', or a site supporting HTML5 for IE10 to work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, if it will be so difficult with getting those apps it might influence sales and opinions outside of the US.
It looks to me that if only manufacturers of x86 devices will resolve problem with heating and active cooling (which imho have no please on tablet or hybrid laptop) it will be the only ver of Win8 that will make sense to buy.
Shame, as I would love to have "all this freedom" on an ARM device - I do not need computing power on mobile device but I also do not want to be limited in what I can install and from where/who.
michiganenginerd said:
It works fine on an x86 tablet. It will be up to Google on whether or not they provide a Metro version. At this time there should be no restriction in place to prevent them from doing so if they desire to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What happens now 9on x86 Win8) if you try to add shortcut to Chrome on Metro UI? It dose not shows... or what?
If so, you mean you can lunch any software from desktop but not from metro screen? Does not make much sense... does it?
I understand that a "Metro app" will be easier to use and more touch friendly that current range of apps designed for mouse but still... it should be my choice. If I want to use it let me start it from any interface.
michiganenginerd said:
If you are going to buy a convertible windows 8 tablet, so it can be a laptop & a tablet, or if you are going to buy an x86 tablet, I would consider waiting for a windows 8 compatible device (expect sometime late summer / early fall.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am considering buying now something like TF Prime or TF 300 - it might do what I need. And with some outside help (perhaps from here) beside usual stuff I should be able to get VPN client, Hulu +, Netflix and BBC on it. I am not worried about text editors as there should be quite few of those that will work with docx files and skydrive and hotmail.
And if Win8 will be a hit (I already bought Vista on a first day of sale - never again the same mistake! ) than I will consider getting it for my desktop and perhaps swapping a hybrid mobile device.
Does it make sense?
michiganenginerd said:
If you are going to buy a Win RT tablet, it is up to you, but I would probably buy a 200-300 android tablet, and then sell it and buy a windows one if/when it becomes a compelling device for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly what I wrote above .
dazza9075 said:
most of your questions have been answered, but im going to add a question (for you) an answer it
Should I buy a tablet now?
No, is the answer.
MS and its hardware partners have made some very interesting gains in the touch technology, not to mention Intels gains in performance / low watt CPUs.
if you buy now you will be missing out on some great tech especially around touch screens so it really would be a bit daft to buy just now, you also run the risk of it not supporting Win 8 completely as well. Seriously, wait it out until Win 8 comes, if you must get an older current gen device (perhaps price constrained?) then it will be cheaper then too
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well... I see your points, but...
It is still long wait for Win8, devices, decent reviews, all the hype and prices to settle and actual (physical) choice in the shop. I remember all the hype about competition to iPad 1 when it came out - it took almost a over year for devices to get to shops (remember CES and MWC in 2010 and 2011) - it is 2012 and not all devices are here.
How long it took Xoom to get to shops outside USA...?
Although Win8 (RT as well???) will go on sale after holidays... time for actual devices with the system (laptops, ultrabooks, netbooks, desktops, all in one PC's, tablets and hybrid tablets [have I missed anything?]) to get to the shop is a whole different story.
Meaning.... if it will take another (at least) 6-8 months to have an actual choice in the shops is it worth to wait and suffer in the mean time? But if I do get a TF300/Prime now - will I need a Win8 replacement for it?

sounds like you already made your mind up what you want to do and that Win 8 will not be as good as we think.
So perhaps save yourself to hassle and don't bother with it.
As for buying now that's up to you, but Win 8 wont be that long, hardware will be out soon and if you don't want that new hardware the older stuff will be a lot cheaper. 8 months after launch is way to far down the line, MS will be bending OEMs over backwards to get hardware out for launch.
You would be completely Bonkers buying now, we are about to get an RC of win 8, ARM will be getting developed in parallel, OEMs will have hardware taped out already to test the OS, which is something Apple doesn't have to worry too much about as they build the OS and hardware around one another where as Windows needs to support it all hence the longer development cycle and early gear in the wild
IF you get something now, there is no guarantee it will work or work well with Win RT or x86, so yes, potentially you will need to get new gear, and of course Win RT is OEM only meaning you can only get it with hardware soo.... you choice I guess.

As Dazza said it sounds like you have pretty much made up your mind. But in case there is still value in conversation.
galtom said:
Why not let ARM do what x86 does
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exisiting applications written for windows cannot just run on a ARM device. They need to be modified to support and recompiled.
Existing applications written for desktops and laptops, even if they could run with no changes, would result in a poor experience.
You have two types of devices: Windows & Windows RT
You have two types of applications: Metro & Classic
RT devices are low power tablets running metro only.
Windows devices are likely to be ultrabooks, convertible laptops, and desktops running what they run today.
If you want a tablet, Win RT is a tablet with a full copy of office and a fun interface that will do what an iPad or an android tablet does, but is a device aimed at content consumption, not generation.
If you want a hybrid, you'll be be buying an x86 device, at least in the near future.
Not letting Diablo II & HALO run on Windows RT isn't just an arbitrary restriction. It won't run. It wasn't written, compiled, and tested on an ARM architecture.
galtom said:
Restrictions / curation:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OSX is adding sandboxing and store requirements over time. Expect in 10 years you have to buy apps from the Mac Store.
Microsoft is heading down the same path, at least for Metro applications. Expect in 10 years, consumers buy most apps from the Windows Store.
Is that a good thing? For some consumers probably. For a developer maybe. For an xda-reader not so much.
galtom said:
Flash Support
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As for flash, it will be very unlikely to come to Windows RT.
Win RT browser will not support plugins.
Adobe has ended new development of Flash on ARM to focus on HTML5.
galtom said:
Why would I buy Win8 RT over android if it is restricted?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why would you choose Android over an iPad?
You choose what is the most compelling to you.
Maybe you like METRO, want domain support, or full native MS Office.
galtom said:
It is still long wait for Win8 devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It isn't that long. Release Candidate is first week of June.
I am running it on an AMD E-350 acer tablet I bought for $300, and I use it over my Transformer.
I hold onto my transformer still to use with Citrix Reciever,
Otherwise I use a laptop, an E-350 hybrid, and an A100 as my devices today.
Expect end of summer that 5 point devices, using the new touch technology go on sale.
Expect late fall devices are sold for the holidays.
What you do is up to you as an individual about what is compelling.
For me I can't wait to buy device like the IdeaPad Yoga. I'll switch to using that and a 7" tablet.
If you are happy with Android, the Transformer is fine, I just find myself using the 7" or a full laptop. I rarely use the 10".
You sound fairly unhappy about Win 8's existance. I'm happy to have more choices.
For me, I will reduce my 4 devices to two, one of which I'm excited about. I won't be likely to buy an RT device, but I expect many will.
We aren't the average user that is being targeted by an RT Device. My parents use a 10" tablet for 90% of their internet. They get on a laptop or desktop for writing long emails, uploading photos & using office. If their tablet had widi to wirelessly throw the screen to a monitor, and could use office, they would probably never use their laptop.
Sales People & Relationship Managers that carry around iPads or Androids also can get a device that works with their corporate domain, and has full office on it. For many that would meet their needs.
But just because Windows RT doesn't meet the needs of an average xda user, doesn't mean it fails for the millions of people using netbooks & 5 year old laptops to browse the web, pay bills online, and occasionally use office.

michiganenginerd said:
As Dazza said it sounds like you have pretty much made up your mind. But in case there is still value in conversation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, that is true but only to a point.
At the moment I think I will give ICS on Asus TF a try and byt the end of the year if x86 tablets with W8 will get good reviews I think I will jump the ship.
My concern (I had Asus 1201n with Atom 330 onboard and have Samsung NC10) is performance of current Atom chips - is it really better (forget about watching smooth YT video on NC10 - and it is not a problem on iPad!).
Heat! - cant have tablet with active cooling system.
Weight! - the likes of current fliptop netbook/tablets its just not nice (heavy and hot).
Battery life - 8h is a must (basically x86 W8 tablet [with a dock] has to be able to work (videos, internet, e-mail - nothing very heavy) to work 1 day
michiganenginerd said:
Originally Posted by galtom
Why not let ARM do what x86 does
Exisiting applications written for windows cannot just run on a ARM device. They need to be modified to support and recompiled.
Existing applications written for desktops and laptops, even if they could run with no changes, would result in a poor experience.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not exactly what I have asked or at least not what I meant.
It is clear from me that x86 and ARM are two different platforms and I have never, ever expected old software to work on ARM devices.
But! If x86 can have both desktop and Metro why limit W-RT? If someone wants to create an ARM app that will support both modes, if users will want to use it...? Why not let us have the option to do so.
Second is the limitation of the sources of the software.
I can not imagine that W-RT will not get jailbroken as iOS is. But since iOS i way ahead of Windows and there is lots of Android devices on the market I can not see this as a PLUS point for W-RT, quite opposite.
W-RT (and devices with this system) will have to compete with:
- iOS: that is well marketed, well known, still cool, less restricted (no problem in swapping iTunes accounts), people already spend cash on software for their iPads, there is Office for iOS + lots of other business & entertainment software - why would current Apple customers ditch iPads?
Why would and iOS device owner said - OOO, another closed and restricted enviromet just looking different - I want it! - somehow I do not see that happening
- Android: envelope of openness that surrounds Android, no problem with root, community support, ROMS, apps from Google (or from wherever you want), probably a bit lower prices of devices, as iOS (in most cases) works with all Microsoft services + points as in iOS - folks have already spent cash on software, some devices are already in second or third generation
- Windows 8 x86 it has everything W-RT has + lots of more. Beats iOS and Android in terms of software availability, it is basically what you now have on desktop and laptop but with the proper support for touch (when you need it), if Intel&Friends will solve problems of weight/heat/battery life and price range will not be as for current line of Windows tablets it looks like a winner to me.
Having said (wrote) all that - why would Joe go to the shop and said:
"Gimme' that Asus with Windows RT" - instead of iOS, Android or Windows 8 device???
michiganenginerd said:
If you want a tablet, Win RT is a tablet with a full copy of office and a fun interface that will do what an iPad or an android tablet does, but is a device aimed at content consumption, not generation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Office for RT and Office for x86 - two different things :-(
+ Office for iOS should be here any moment (I thought it is already out). As much as MS would love to ignore iOS and keep Office out of iPAD I do not think they can. how many millions devices is already out there? If only 25% of those people would want one of Office products... its quite a lot of cash...
+ to all points above - there is also a question of price of the software for all platforms and system itself.
What's more, considering how big profit Apple is making on iPad it seems as lots of room for price adjustment once Windows8 & RT devices are out.
michiganenginerd said:
If you want a hybrid, you'll be be buying an x86 device, at least in the near future.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Quite true, but since I miss this sort of functionality every day (and I doubt I am only one) why not go for TF300 or TF Prime now?
There is nothing wrong with those devices and when I look at ICS and what RT will bring to table I do not see any reasonable points that would convince me to wait (that was the reason I wrote here - to see I my line of thinking is correct. So far (unfortunately for W-RT) you have not wrote that I am wrong or that I have misunderstood something about Windows RT.
The only thing worth considering are devices with x86 Windows onboard but:
- its still few months (in the mean time I could give ICS a try?
- they are unknown in terms of battery/heat/weight and price!
Windows RT seems like a great idea that was f...up during creation. If Windows RT would be first on the market (before iPad with iOS and Android) - no problem. They could do all that and people would still get it... nowadays, whey MS is trying to chase others... I do not really see it happening with Windows 8 RT looking as it is.
It is pretty similar to situation with Windows Phone. It is not a bad system... but it is not better either. In some case is like or a bit worse than iOS in some it is like or a bit worse than Android - but it is not BETTER.
And just look how iPhone and Android phones are selling. look where is manufacturers focus.
Samsung/LG/Sony/HTC - how many Android models and how many WP models?
I got strange felling that W-RT will share the same fate. It will be there but not as any threat to iOS or Android, unlike x86 Windows 8 if Intel&Co will deliver.
michiganenginerd said:
OSX is adding sandboxing and store requirements over time. Expect in 10 years you have to buy apps from the Mac Store.
Microsoft is heading down the same path, at least for Metro applications. Expect in 10 years, consumers buy most apps from the Windows Store.[/qoute]
Yes, and there is nothing wrong with this... especially that (I hope) with x86 version we will always keep the choice where we want our software to get from.
Looking at the history (of thing in general) I can not remember 1 good exaple where introduction of more and additional restrictions actually worked well. It is against human nature.
If in 10-15 Windows will become completely shut... than Linux (or something else) might raise its head and actually win hearts of customers - like Apple did not so far ago!
michiganenginerd said:
Is that a good thing? For some consumers probably. For a developer maybe. For an xda-reader not so much.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can not agree! It is bad for every one - even developers as they will be forced to accept any policy and conditions from Microsoft (similar to what it is right now with Apple ).
Limiting the choice is never good for anyone beside "The Man" in control.
michiganenginerd said:
As for flash, it will be very unlikely to come to Windows RT.
Win RT browser will not support plugins.
Adobe has ended new development of Flash on ARM to focus on HTML5.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And with recent news that RT will not support other browser but its own, best it is another point against this system.
It looks to me as MS is doing all it actually can to make it bad.
michiganenginerd said:
Why would you choose Android over an iPad?
You choose what is the most compelling to you.
Maybe you like METRO, want domain support, or full native MS Office.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
EXACTLY! If all above is true... who is going to get W-RT???
It will sell but only to people with no idea what they are buying, who dont really need it and who will not really use it (will not buy additional apps). Because if they do, if that will think before they buy... W-RT will be the last on the list (unless it will be the cheapest - which I doubt!)
michiganenginerd said:
It isn't that long. Release Candidate is first week of June.
I am running it on an AMD E-350 acer tablet I bought for $300, and I use it over my Transformer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If only there would be an x86 ver of transformer with no fans to cool it down I would already be on it and this thread would not exist.
I just wanted to make sure that I am not missing something about Windows RT or situation in general.
I hold onto my transformer still to use with Citrix Reciever,
Otherwise I use a laptop, an E-350 hybrid, and an A100 as my devices today.
Expect end of summer that 5 point devices, using the new touch technology go on sale.
Expect late fall devices are sold for the holidays.
What you do is up to you as an individual about what is compelling.
For me I can't wait to buy device like the IdeaPad Yoga. I'll switch to using that and a 7" tablet.
If you are happy with Android, the Transformer is fine, I just find myself using the 7" or a full laptop. I rarely use the 10".
You sound fairly unhappy about Win 8's existance. I'm happy to have more choices.
For me, I will reduce my 4 devices to two, one of which I'm excited about. I won't be likely to buy an RT device, but I expect many will.
We aren't the average user that is being targeted by an RT Device. My parents use a 10" tablet for 90% of their internet. They get on a laptop or desktop for writing long emails, uploading photos & using office. If their tablet had widi to wirelessly throw the screen to a monitor, and could use office, they would probably never use their laptop.
Sales People & Relationship Managers that carry around iPads or Androids also can get a device that works with their corporate domain, and has full office on it. For many that would meet their needs.
But just because Windows RT doesn't meet the needs of an average xda user, doesn't mean it fails for the millions of people using netbooks & 5 year old laptops to browse the web, pay bills online, and occasionally use office.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Short version:
W-RT is not for targeted at You, I, or many xda-readers. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a place or that the option existing is bad.
galtom said:
Heat, Weight, Battery Life!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Intel is getting closer, but you just can't pull off an iPad size / weight device with 8h+ battery life on x86. The tech isn't there yet.
galtom said:
If x86 can have both desktop and Metro why limit W-RT?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
W-RT is OEM only. It is meant to be an 'appliance' not a PC.
Whether you agree with the approach or not, the justifications for limiting are somewhat explained here:
Microsoft's Windows chief Steven Sinofsky:
If we enabled the broad porting of existing code we would fail to deliver on our commitment to longer battery life, predictable performance, and especially a reliable experience over time. The conventions used by today's Windows apps do not necessarily provide this, whether it is background processes, polling loops, timers, system hooks, startup programs, registry changes, kernel mode code, admin rights, unsigned drivers, add-ins, or a host of other common techniques.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...ndows-for-the-arm-processor-architecture.aspx
galtom said:
I can not imagine that W-RT will not get jailbroken as iOS is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Less immediate need to jailbreak it. There are supported methods of sideloading, but I am sure there will be other people who extend it beyond that.
galtom said:
why would Joe go to the shop and said:
"Gimme' that Asus with Windows RT" - instead of iOS, Android or Windows 8 device???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Joe may work for a BYOD company, or Joe is buying for his company.
Joe may be my Father, who would like a tablet device he could do email, netflix, hulu, office, and wireless screencasting.
Some Joe's this will work for, other's it won't. We have to recognize, just because we aren't the target market doesn't mean their isn't one.
Many Joe's will buy an iPad or an Android, some will buy W-RT, some will buy none of the above.
A device that is 300-500 dollars, that comes with a free copy of office, and integrates well with a enterprise, has a market.
galtom said:
Office for RT and Office for x86 - two different things
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Excel, OneNote, PowerPoint and Word are expected to support all of the same Office 15 x86 features.
galtom said:
Windows Phone. It is not a bad system... but it is not better either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed, except in the base security model, and as a feature phone replacement. The phone is massively ahead in terms of sandboxing and enforcing secure practices. It would also be a better phone in terms of ease of use and simplicity for a subset of users. Would I replace my Android with it? no. But that doesn't mean it doesn't do some things well, and that their are users who would find the experience simpler than iPhone or Android when buying their first smartphone.
galtom said:
It will be there but not as any threat to iOS or Android, unlike x86 Windows 8 if Intel&Co will deliver.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does something have to be an 'iPad Killer' for there to be a place for it? Why is choice a bad thing?
galtom said:
Restrictions .... bad for every one
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For some consumers the security and curation makes their experience better, for some the restrictions outweigh any benefit.
For some developers the market will be better than one not existing, for some the restrictions outweigh any benefit.
For most people on this board the restrictions outweigh the upside.
As a developer, while I hate the restrictions Apple and MS impose, I also now have a market to sell to that did not exist 10 years ago.
I will continue to be a proponent of more open options, and an end to restrictions put in place to support a business model rather than architecture or security, but that doesnt' mean that the app store's existance is a net negative on my life.
galtom said:
RT will not support other browser but its own
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not true. RT will not support other browsers in 'Classic / Desktop' mode.
I think MS should work with major vendors to allow them to deliver 'classic' mode applications on ARM, but this isn't a ban on other browsers, it's a ban on all software that does not run in the sandbox.
galtom said:
It will sell but only to people with no idea what they are buying
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I share concern in this area. I believe that most people who bought netbooks did not get what they expected.
I do think there is a place for these devices for a larger group of users than netbooks had a place for.
But I do think they need to make sure it is sold / marketed in a way that makes it clear what it is, and what it is not.
I will probably get my Father one for Christmas. I probably will not get one of my own. Different users have different needs, hopefully the marketing, sales, and staffs at stores do a better job of directing them.

How difficult will Windows 8 be to root.

I enjoy flashing roms and if I can't do that I may not go with a windows phone.
Sent from incredible 2 .

please check out the windows phone 8 forum for windows phone. As for the question I would say wait and see because until we get our hands on with the device its impossible to say. We will have a much better idea in 2 weeks

I see I posted it in the wrong spot.
I saw in wp8 forum somebody posted a similar question and they're getting their head cut off.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using xda premium

wmsforties said:
I see I posted it in the wrong spot.
I saw in wp8 forum somebody posted a similar question and they're getting their head cut off.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is quite a volatile question lol

I think the OP might be talking about RT, which does need rooting. There's no way to tell, though, until the tabs actually get onto store shelves.

RT will probably be a royal pain in the arse, if WP7 security has been copied on to Win8 RT then we are all DOOOOOOOOMED
at least until an OEM screws up and its bypassed
Win 8 (x86) probably fairly easy pickings and unlikely to give anyone any bother, its like your regular Win 7 so I don't foresee a big issue, secure boot might prove a concern but not in a "rooting" sense as you will already have that, it might be a wee bit trickier to install other OSs or to hack the OS but all the usual stuff will still be possible on a x86 Win 8

>RT will probably be a royal pain in the arse, if WP7 security has been copied on to Win8 RT then we are all DOOOOOOOOMED
It doesn't matter. All announced Win RT tablets are north of $600, which aren't competitive with Clovertrail tabs that can run full Win8, let alone iPads and Androids. Few will buy into RT this year.
Moreover, it doesn't matter if RT is locked down or not. Because Intel tabs look to be viable on performance & battery life, if RT gets to be a PITA about its walled garden, people (and hackers) will simply stick to x86 and Win8. The only loser is Win RT and Microsoft.
The first order of biz for Win8 is to put it on a diet and strip out most of the 20GB bloat, to maximize what remains of your 64GB storage. I expect Win enthusiasts will take on this task, as they did for XP (XPLite) and Win7 (RT7Lite).

e.mote said:
>RT will probably be a royal pain in the arse, if WP7 security has been copied on to Win8 RT then we are all DOOOOOOOOMED
It doesn't matter. All announced Win RT tablets are north of $600, which aren't competitive with Clovertrail tabs that can run full Win8, let alone iPads and Androids. Few will buy into RT this year.
Moreover, it doesn't matter if RT is locked down or not. Because Intel tabs look to be viable on performance & battery life, if RT gets to be a PITA about its walled garden, people (and hackers) will simply stick to x86 and Win8. The only loser is Win RT and Microsoft.
The first order of biz for Win8 is to put it on a diet and strip out most of the 20GB bloat, to maximize what remains of your 64GB storage. I expect Win enthusiasts will take on this task, as they did for XP (XPLite) and Win7 (RT7Lite).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It seems you think that the majority of consumers are, well, us... We're outnumbered by an incredible amount man, the majority of people purchasing anything out there don't even know what "root" means... Nor do they care...
I don't exactly see how Microsoft is losing by successfully protecting their product where most others have failed. The only way to obtain root on most devices is through some security hole exploit or something, indicating that the developer did not want you to have root on your device, it is not like it's a feature of the operating system... Microsoft is just doing the same thing that everyone else has done, except they seem to be the only ones who have done it right... We love having full access to our devices here, we hate being locked down but I think that keeping us from breaking into their devices is technically a win for Microsoft & a loss for us.

>I don't exactly see how Microsoft is losing by successfully protecting their product where most others have failed.
Normally, a company erects a walled garden when it has something to protect, eg a successful product, or a market lead that it doesn't want the competition to copy.
MS is erecting a walled garden for RT, a platform that is yet to have any audience, and at launch will behind its competitors in every metric--pricing, content, software, hardware. Perhaps you would be kind enough to point to me what it is that is worth protecting. To me, it's corporate idiocy gone amok.
Putting aside RT for the moment, Win8 is starting its leak to mainstream media now. Of the various Main Street reaction pieces being written about it, one word sums them up: "confusing." If Surface tanks, it'll be just one more in a long series of failed MS initiatives. But if Win8 tanks, it's a hit to its main piggy bank.
I like Win8, but I'm aware that people will have different reactions, and IMO Win8 is going to have a rough time with the userbase--rough enough that a comparison to Vista may be appropriate. No need to argue about it. Launch is next week, and we'll get plenty of reactions from the hoi polloi.
I'd love to have a full-fledged OS on a tablet. But Win8 is a WIP, and my gauge it'll take at least another cycle for mobile use. For my current use, I'm bypassing the Metro UI and using it as a regular desktop OS. My opinion of Windows-on-ARM (RT) is much less optimistic. It won't die, but it will be on life support, waiting for a resuscitation in version 2.0. Let's hope MS perseveres.

Um... no offense @e.mote, but WTF are you talking about? Surface RT starts at $499, not "over $600" by any stretch of the imagination, and there are other vendors announcing Windows RT devices too.
As for "rooting" it... it's Windows NT6.2, and very similar to the desktop version. Getting "root" is a UAC prompt away, nothing more. Heck, you can log in as Administrator if you want to (it's disabled by default, as on Win7, but it can be enabled). It's a multi-user OS (unlike iOS and most if not all Android installs) and uses standard Windows accounts ("Metro-style" Windows Store apps use low-privileged chambers, similar to WP7, but the standard user experience on the desktop is pretty similar to on x86 Win8 except you can't run third-party EXEs.
Now, if you want to talk about bypassing that little restriction on the end there... that'll take some work. It's probably possible, but it will depend on where the check is implemented and enforced, how much debug functionality is exposed in the OS (some things, like sideloading of "Metro" apps, is already known to be available), and how many layers of protection there are. Worst case, it'll take a ring-0 (kernel, essentially) exploit to overwrite the loader check in the running RAM image. More likely, it will require some moderate tweaking to put the device into a "test mode" plus installing a custom signing certificate and signing your binaries, or something similar to that.

Windows 7 or 8 which...

In all honesty who recommends windows 8 over windows 7 laptop?
Sent from my VM670 using Xparent Pink Tapatalk 2

No one
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---------- Post added at 07:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 PM ----------
I've got it on my desktop...Im not impressed. It would be good on a tablet but for a pc, eh...
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I would go for it. Running windows 8 on my laptop and there are no downsides once you get used to the new interface.
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Who:
Gamers. It uses less system resources. Plus there are some decent games available in the Win8 store.
Anybody using multi-monitor systems; it has a bunch of cool new features for multi-mon.
Developers. If you want to write apps for the Windows Store, you have to be using Win8.
People buying very low-end PCs (see above comment about resources).
Anybody using virtualization (Client Hyper-V is awesome).
Anybody who wants to take advantage of Storage Spaces or other new Win8 features.
Anybody who wants their settings to sync automatically across their PCs (Windows account signin).
There are plenty of other advantages to Win8...

GoodDayToDie said:
Who:
Anybody using virtualization (Client Hyper-V is awesome).
There are plenty of other advantages to Win8...
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Click to collapse
OK found a disadvantage (not really a disadvantage to the OS because it's a new, optional feature). On my computer, enabling hyper-v from windows setup locks the cpu to its max frequency, wasting the battery. Also, it breaks virtualbox so I can't boot guest os'es from there. Apparently, this only happens to Intel chips. So Hyper-V is really only worth it if you are only hosting Windows guests and 1) have an amd cpu or 2) have a desktop computer
Also, the new interface eats hdd space like crazy. Hdd usage has continuously been growing with each Windows release, but storage costs have been decreasing even faster, so it is a largely irrelevant issue, except that 1) windows 8 is meant to be used on low-capacity mobile devices, and 2) the advent of SSDs has led many users to replace their traditional HDDs with them, which leads to less storage space and a greater cost per gigabyte. Do not expect to run Windows 8 on a 32gb or smaller SSD unless the computer is going to be an Internet + Office device (as many $1500+ college student MacBooks become, ironically).

ganggreen30 said:
In all honesty who recommends windows 8 over windows 7 laptop?
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Click to collapse
people who know what their talking about. Get it, learn it, you won't regret it.
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ganggreen30 said:
In all honesty who recommends windows 8 over windows 7 laptop?
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Click to collapse
Me. I have it on 2 laptops, a netbook, a tablet and a desktop.

Considering that you can activate Windows 7 with Windows 8 key, it only makes sense to get Windows 8 devices now. If you hate it, just get a Windows 7 installer and downgrade.

One that has too much free time to offer support after the purchase is being made.

My thought is - the upgrade to Win8 is only a matter of time (unless you abandon Windows for Linux or MacOS - or wait 4 years for Win9).
Honestly, I'm not a "get on the cutting edge" kind of guy most of the time, but I did upgrade one of my servers simply to support WinRT dev and Remote Apps. I have to say I like Win8. I kinda like the desktop mode better than Win7, and some of the new features are really nice.
Upgrades are cheap now. $40 for a legit upgrade to Win8 Pro if you do it before Jan 31. I plan to upgrade all of my stuff before then.

I have it on my gaming rig, and I love it now. Took me some time to get used to the interface. Now I have tons of custom tiles for my steam games. Also, some games run better. I'm getting straight fps boosts in most cases.
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I'd recommend it any day, I use it for my desktop and its great, the only time I use metro is when I use a metro app, some people are just over reacting to the whole new menu it really isn't that bad. I admit it that I would use the metro more if I had a touch screen as its made for that purpose but even with mouse it works quite good. Multiple monitors work great with it too
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JihadSquad said:
OK found a disadvantage (not really a disadvantage to the OS because it's a new, optional feature). On my computer, enabling hyper-v from windows setup locks the cpu to its max frequency, wasting the battery. Also, it breaks virtualbox so I can't boot guest os'es from there. Apparently, this only happens to Intel chips. So Hyper-V is really only worth it if you are only hosting Windows guests and 1) have an amd cpu or 2) have a desktop computer
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It also breaks the Netflix app.

>the upgrade to Win8 is only a matter of time
Not really. I'm looking some sales info that's starting to roll in for Black Friday, and Win8 and associated hardware sales look like a major bust, worse than Vista. This of course goes double for WinRT and Surface RT. You can get some of the same indications by Googling (not Binging, heh) on "windows 8" sales black friday.
Some think that no matter how bad the adoption, Win8 will still succeed by virtue of being on every new PC. Again, not really. People are delaying their PC buys (and buying tablets instead), and Win7 is still an option.
All this isn't news to early adopters. Win8 has been in use among techies for a whole year, and we all know its fortes and foibles. We always knew that public adoption of Metro UI on the desktop (and laptop) was problematic. The overpricing on Win8 laptops/hybrids only made it worse. Interest in Win8 desktops and tablets is minimal.
My best guess is that as a short-term fix, MS will release a SP to allow boot-to-desktop and putting back the Start button, effectively cleaving Metro out for the desktop crowd. This will need to happen soon, some time in spring, if there's to be any chance of salvaging Win8. IMO, Win8's rep is already irreparably damaged, and it'll be up to Blue to leave the stigma behind with a fall 2013 release.
For those still on the fence, my advice is don't bother with Win8. There'll be a "fixed" version coming, whether a SP or a Win9 coming down the pike, and whatever investment you make to transition to Win8 will be wasted, as you'll have to do it again. I say this as a Win8 user.
Now you know the real reason why Sinofsky is gone. If Win8 was a success like Win7, he'd still be around. But it doesn't take a whole quarter of sales to see whether Win8 flies or dies, and by this time MS should have ample data for sales projection.

e.mote said:
>the upgrade to Win8 is only a matter of time
Not really. I'm looking some sales info that's starting to roll in for Black Friday, and Win8 and associated hardware sales look like a major bust, worse than Vista. This of course goes double for WinRT and Surface RT. You can get some of the same indications by Googling (not Binging, heh) on "windows 8" sales black friday.
Some think that no matter how bad the adoption, Win8 will still succeed by virtue of being on every new PC. Again, not really. People are delaying their PC buys (and buying tablets instead), and Win7 is still an option.
All this isn't news to early adopters. Win8 has been in use among techies for a whole year, and we all know its fortes and foibles. We always knew that public adoption of Metro UI on the desktop (and laptop) was problematic. The overpricing on Win8 laptops/hybrids only made it worse. Interest in Win8 desktops and tablets is minimal.
My best guess is that as a short-term fix, MS will release a SP to allow boot-to-desktop and putting back the Start button, effectively cleaving Metro out for the desktop crowd. This will need to happen soon, some time in spring, if there's to be any chance of salvaging Win8. IMO, Win8's rep is already irreparably damaged, and it'll be up to Blue to leave the stigma behind with a fall 2013 release.
For those still on the fence, my advice is don't bother with Win8. There'll be a "fixed" version coming, whether a SP or a Win9 coming down the pike, and whatever investment you make to transition to Win8 will be wasted, as you'll have to do it again. I say this as a Win8 user.
Now you know the real reason why Sinofsky is gone. If Win8 was a success like Win7, he'd still be around. But it doesn't take a whole quarter of sales to see whether Win8 flies or dies, and by this time MS should have ample data for sales projection.
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Click to collapse
First of all, 8 hasn't "taken off" but the sales are on par with 7, and the launch sales were pretty significantly higher than 7.
"Win8 has been in use among techies for a whole year, and we all know its fortes and foibles. We always knew that public adoption of Metro UI on the desktop (and laptop) was problematic."
This is pretty much bull****. Most self proclaimed "techies" who disliked it never even used it- it's all just "I read it was bad from some blogger and hey, let's all jump on the MS is stupid again bandwagon!"
Those that did use it never knew how to properly use it because they went in hating it, never gave a real effort to use it, *****ed about how hard it was and called their crappy self confirmation bias a terrible "experience". Experience my ass. Learning curves are not inherently bad. In fact most *real* "techies", ie server admins and people who can think for themselves, really like what 8 has to offer.
I suspect that a lot of PC gamers don't know what's good for them and hate 8 for no other reason than Gabe Newell hates 8. And you know why he hates 8? If you take what he says at face value, he sounds like an old fart who has used Macs all his life. The real reason is competition- he is worried that 8 might actually catch on and threaten steam sales via the store.
It's so hard to know what the average user actually thinks because the whole damned thing is so steeped in political and other various biases. But you know what I say? Shut your damn mouth. There's no reason to *not* buy 8 now that it's $40, there's nothing but benefits to the system, and all perceived "negative traits" are so easily changed or removed that I'm surprised the lazy assholes who refuse to get 8 because of them haven't died from starvation, being too lazy to stand up and go shove food at their faces.
There's nothing wrong with 8, it's well worth the money- telling people to "not bother" is only going to make a self fulfilling prophecy that does not need to happen.
GOOD DAY, SIR.

>But you know what I say? Shut your damn mouth...I'm surprised the lazy assholes who refuse to get 8 because of them haven't died from starvation, being too lazy to stand up and go shove food at their faces.
.

Zardos66 said:
Also, some games run better. I'm getting straight fps boosts in most cases.
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Click to collapse
I'm pretty sure they've shown gaming increases to be negligible unless you're running hardware that has conflicts with Win 7 and not Win 8. I wanna say Tom's Hardware did a shootout where they ran the same two machines with Win 7 and Win 8 and showed +/- 2 FPS in all games except one.
Edit: Found the link
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windows-8-gaming-performance,3331.html
link68759 said:
I suspect that a lot of PC gamers don't know what's good for them and hate 8 for no other reason than Gabe Newell hates 8.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hate is a pretty strong word. I don't hate Windows 8. I do hate the "Modern (Not Metro)" UI, as I feel it sacrifices information density and customization for the sake of aesthetics, which I find to be mostly useless. I don't care if my OS is pretty. I care if it works. I especially don't care if it's designed for a method of input that I not only do not own, but do not plan to purchase.
I've been using Windows my entire life. My first home computer (at 8 years old) had Windows 95. When the local computer store told us that we couldn't install Windows 98 (Not enough RAM), I took the copy home and installed it myself. I skipped 2000 and ME because they were garbage, and bought a new store-built for Windows XP. After the recovery partition got corrupted and HP told me that to get a copy of the discs would cost $60 + shipping, I went out and bought Windows XP Pro. I skipped Vista, because it was garbage, and bought a new Win 7 laptop a week after the launch of the new OS.
With my level of familiarity with the Windows OS I would say that I am a power user. I am equally comfortable on the command line and in the policy editors. With the latest incarnation of the OS Windows has lost me. I now have a laptop that I'm triple booting Win 7 Ult, Win 8 Pro, and Linux Mint Cinnamon, while my main computer (now degraded to file server) is running a bulletproof install of XP that hasn't been reinstalled since late 2004. It'd be on Win 7 ultimate if nVidia didn't buy out ULi and decide that making Vista+ drivers for their RAID hardware was a fruitless endeavor.
I love the fact that they have optimized the underlayings of the operating system. A more efficient registry with a lot of bloat cut out really increases Windows performance, and you can plainly tell in Windows 8. That along with features in Pro that I bought Win 7 Ult for is a big bonus, especially at the $40 price point.
My biggest gripes are touch input. It's a gimmick. I've spent the last 17 years yelling at my parents, coworkers, nieces, nephews, and any other asshole who dared touch my screen and leave their nasty greasy fingerprints on my display device. I don't want to touch my screen. Ever. It's a desktop computer, not a tablet, and requiring me to mimic campy finger gestures with my mouse is annoying. The neon pastel color scheme looks like it came out of My Little Ponie's My First Computer, and not an adult's operating system, and even customizing the colors leaves you with nasty shades. Then there's Windows Explorer. Imagine my frustration when I hit Alt+V and a ****ING RIBBON pops up with my options. I hated Ribbons in Office 2007, hoped they'd be gone in 2010, but at least they made major improvements. Now the same menu that used to be maybe 100 pixels by 100 pixels is expanded to fill up a 600 x 100 pixel space, with no additional functionality.
I feel like Microsoft is telling me that "[I'm] holding it wrong." I always bought Microsoft because of the level of customization I was afforded. Looks like it's finally time to learn Linux.

e.mote said:
>the upgrade to Win8 is only a matter of time
Not really. I'm looking some sales info that's starting to roll in for Black Friday, and Win8 and associated hardware sales look like a major bust, worse than Vista. This of course goes double for WinRT and Surface RT. You can get some of the same indications by Googling (not Binging, heh) on "windows 8" sales black friday.
Some think that no matter how bad the adoption, Win8 will still succeed by virtue of being on every new PC. Again, not really. People are delaying their PC buys (and buying tablets instead), and Win7 is still an option.
All this isn't news to early adopters. Win8 has been in use among techies for a whole year, and we all know its fortes and foibles. We always knew that public adoption of Metro UI on the desktop (and laptop) was problematic. The overpricing on Win8 laptops/hybrids only made it worse. Interest in Win8 desktops and tablets is minimal.
My best guess is that as a short-term fix, MS will release a SP to allow boot-to-desktop and putting back the Start button, effectively cleaving Metro out for the desktop crowd. This will need to happen soon, some time in spring, if there's to be any chance of salvaging Win8. IMO, Win8's rep is already irreparably damaged, and it'll be up to Blue to leave the stigma behind with a fall 2013 release.
For those still on the fence, my advice is don't bother with Win8. There'll be a "fixed" version coming, whether a SP or a Win9 coming down the pike, and whatever investment you make to transition to Win8 will be wasted, as you'll have to do it again. I say this as a Win8 user.
Now you know the real reason why Sinofsky is gone. If Win8 was a success like Win7, he'd still be around. But it doesn't take a whole quarter of sales to see whether Win8 flies or dies, and by this time MS should have ample data for sales projection.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First, Black Friday is now and has always been a day to offload all the old, **** stock. It is not now, nor has it ever been, about selling the new, current stock.
Microsoft has no interest in going backwards. There is a new SDK that is coming out that will merge Windows and Windows Phone development. In the future you will target screen size and resources, just like in the past. There will not be a desktop/mobile choice like there is now.
When Microsoft releases an update for Windows 8, it will no doubt be to remove MORE of the desktop features and move them to Metro. I already think there are way to many trips to the desktop for RT users to do things like configure keyboard, mouse, network, file management, etc.
No one thinks their computer is easier to use than their phone.

>Hate is a pretty strong word. I don't hate Windows 8.
As said, Win8 is no longer a new thing, having been in available to techies for over a year. We all have our opinions on it by now, and there's no need to justify it to anyone.
>With the latest incarnation of the OS Windows has lost me...I feel like Microsoft is telling me that "[I'm] holding it wrong."
Yes, legacy support was always the Windows mantra, going all the way back to Windows 3.0. It was the major reason that Win95 prevailed over OS/2 (anyone here old enough to remember that far back?) The Windows userbase got thrown under the bus in the rush to adopt mobile. Since Sinofsky was the man in charge, and as imperious as he was, I have little doubt of the culprit. That he's summarily tossed out face-first is a good sign that dumping the desktop may not have been a wise move, thus my expectation for rapproachment with the desktop crowd.
MS has trumpeted the "40 million licenses sold" pretty loudly, and is good fodder for fanboys to rally behind. But those who know the difference between sell-in vs sell-through take the PR spiel with a yawn. Yes, MS claimed the same for "strong" Vista sales vs XP five years ago.
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Windows/Microsoft-Says-Vista-Sales-Strong/
>Microsoft has no interest in going backwards.
You can only forward if the userbase follows. There is no "going forward" if Win8 flops. Win7 still works just fine, just as XP still works just fine for a large segment of the userbase. Unlike years past where Win is the dominant monopoly, there are now viable choices. The many iPads users have lock-ins to Apple's ecosystem, and buying a Mac is becoming an appealing choice, even moreso if "new" Windows forces a substantial learning curve. Again, I say this as a current Win8 user.
>When Microsoft releases an update for Windows 8, it will no doubt be to remove MORE of the desktop features and move them to Metro.
The fundamental problem with the "Metro uber alles" view is that it can't replace the desktop WIMP metaphor with multiple overlapping windows. Try doing Photoshop, or any heavy-duty productivity applications with a single window (or the 1/4 split window). You can't. To say the desktop will disappear is just plain idiotic.
>No one thinks their computer is easier to use than their phone.
Spoken like a true consumer who only knows how to consume content rather than produce it. If yours were true, then you shouldn't be using Windows, because iOS and Android already have the phone market cornered.
Anyway, we'll know soon enough how Win8 sales go, once the new year rolls around. That's only a month away. Wait and see, yes?

@TheScaryOne: If you think 2000 was crap compared to 98, then you are part of the problem with why a Windows "Power User" is considered a complete joke on whoever would call themselves that. The entire Win9x family, from first release of 95 through to ME, was a complete technological backwater compared to the NT family (which includes 2000). Yes, it used a bunch of hand-tuned assembly code to let it boot up and run quickly on low-RAM systems, but in turn you sacrificed
* stability (soooo many crashes, and it was terrible at recovering from them)
* reliability (no filesystem journaling so data loss or corruption on a crash was common, etc.)
* security (it had *no* support for a permissions system so you couldn't run with anything other than "admin" permissions, and was full of exploitable bugs)
* portability (single-CPU x86 systems only, and low caps on amount of usable RAM and HDD space)
* features (the NT line was, especially back then, the only true "power user" environment).
OK, with that out of the way...
Why are you spending any time in the "metro" environment if you don't like it? Ever since Vista, if you actually use the Start menu with a mouse, you're doing it wrong. Windows key + <first few letters of program name> + Enter. You can be launching a program before Start finishes its load animation.
The ribbon takes up less space than a menu bar + toolbar, or than the Win7 "command bar" used in Explorer, unless you for some reason leave it open all the time. As a "power user" shouldn't you be using keyboard shortcuts and context menus instead of moving your mouse up to the top of the window anyhow? The ribbon is for people who aren't familiar with what a program can do, but want to find things. The keyboard (and to a lesser extend context menus) are for people who already know how to use the system. The old menus are for people who only ever learned a bunch of operations by rote... it may have taken me a whole week to get used to them, back when they first appeared in a pre-release version of what wasn't even yet called Office 2007.
... I could go on, but I'm not sure there's a point. If you want to live in the past and ignore the last half decade of usability improvements to Windows (which I'll admit Metro doesn't count as if you're using a mouse and keyboard, but it's only a very slight downgrade and since you didn't even mention that particular flaw I doubt you're even aware of it; if you use touch it's a *huge* upgrade though), nobody here can stop you. We might laugh and shake our heads, though.