Database Users

[Q] Looking for advice on S4 ROM

Hi all,
I once more turn to XDA gurus for some advice and also questions. Let me start with saying that I have very basic experience with android phones: my main phone is an iPhone but I love to play with Android devices to fill in the iOS blanks. I own a Samsung Infuse (with a custom ROM but very unstable) and briefly had an HTC One but returned it.
Anyway, I bought an AT&T S4; it's unlocked and works great. However I'm in Canada on Rogers and couldn't care less about the bloatware installed on it. Here come the questions:
- Does anyone know of a way to install the stock Rogers ROM on this phone (more like where to get it)?
- Alternately, would you recommend to install another ROM?
Here's the thing: a week after I bought mine, Google announced the Google editions; would have known I would have waited to get that.
- Would it be recommendable to flash the Google ROM on my phone?
- Would there be a way to install some of the Samsung SPKs on such a ROM (I could never seem to do it on my Infuse)?
I know how to flash a ROM, and it's well documented in the Forums. I'm more after opinions; my experience with flashing ROMs on my Infuse has been spotty at best. Seems like no matter what I did, the phone would become unusably unstable after a while. This scares me because it seems like the Infuse is one of the most modded phones out there... The S4 is very impressive and I don't want to hinder it's performance in any way.
If none of this is doable/recommendable, then I might sell this one and pay the extra $100 and get the Google edition.
I appreciate any input!
Thanks

Well, I know it's not polite to bump your own post, but I would really appreciate some feedback.
And actually I'll add a bit more to it: let's say I either try the Google ROM or decide to buy a Google Edition, there are some pretty cool apps included with the Samsung version (such as multi window and air gestures). Is it possible to have those available on the Google Edition/ROM?
Thanks and sorry again for my lack of knowledge in the area...

technosinner said:
Well, I know it's not polite to bump your own post, but I would really appreciate some feedback.
And actually I'll add a bit more to it: let's say I either try the Google ROM or decide to buy a Google Edition, there are some pretty cool apps included with the Samsung version (such as multi window and air gestures). Is it possible to have those available on the Google Edition/ROM?
Thanks and sorry again for my lack of knowledge in the area...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Consensus with the GE ROMs for the S4 are that they're WAY too stripped down in comparison to other AOSP options (of which GE is NOT, it's actually TW disguised as AOSP). I, personally, would avoid using GE and instead opt for something like AOKP if you want that same feel. I just flashed FoxHound and really like the hybrid aspect of it in the fact that you keep all the gimmicky TW features (the hover and voice stuff as well as multi-window), the menu structures are similar, but it brings all the bonuses that having an AOSP ROM does. There are some extra steps involved which @Axman has taken his time to explain (you have to manually input your APN), but the end result is worth it.
Good luck and read around.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

well spoken my friend. Thanks

Thank you very much for the clarification. I was actually in the process of reading Axman's posts. To be honest I'm totally overwhelmed. I didn't imagine it to be so complicated; I'm really torn between ROM and keeping stock because of the TW cool stuff... I will keep reading around as all good n00b should.
Thanks!

technosinner said:
Thank you very much for the clarification. I was actually in the process of reading Axman's posts. To be honest I'm totally overwhelmed. I didn't imagine it to be so complicated; I'm really torn between ROM and keeping stock because of the TW cool stuff... I will keep reading around as all good n00b should.
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's much less complicated than it seems, but you do need to follow the steps as outlined or you could end up with anything from a borked flash to a bricked phone depending on what you're trying to do. I recommend playing with a i337m ROM that is TW-based for your first, just to get the hang of things as it'll provide the least steep learning curve. Go for these steps at first:
1. Enable Developer Options (go to Settings/About/tap on build until it says they're enabled)
2. Run one click root/recovery from Adam Outler
3. Transfer and flash ROM of your choice
Just know that people flash for different reasons ranging from wanting less bloat to more battery life to a morbid case of flashaholism (such as myself and @TheAxman). There's nothing saying you have to go balls to the wall here and you may find yourself completely happy with the stock ROM and a better kernel. Just read up and it'll make perfect sense.
Last word of advice: have Odin and the stock ROM on hand so you can flash back to stock if necessary. Some ROMs don't play well when flashed on top of others, even if you do a full wipe.
Sent from my SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

I was actually in the exact same situation as you.
However, I decided to flash a TW based ROM to keep all the cool Samsung features.
I'd recommend any of the Stock Based ones here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2312444
Just do your research and look for the features you need.

Thanks a lot guys! I'll be doing some reading but at least I know where to look.
One last thing: I keep seeing this loki thing around. Since I'm on an att version I got that I need it, but what exactly is it and where can I get it? I see a lot of references to it, but I can't seem to find a download link or a tutorial on it...
Thanks again!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda premium

Don' t take the loki thing and run with it..if you are rooted and have recovery installed, flash the rom of choice and use a att kernel that already has been loki'ed.
Simple. That way you will never go wrong.
The Ax says this is my method of choice. Could care less about loki.

I recommend cm10.1 . It is aosp based, tins of features, fast, and just nice to use. I use it on my att sgs4 right now. It is nightly release but it is VERY STABLE. Ge is just tw with an aosp fanboy shirt on .lol.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda app-developers app

A question or two...important!

Okay so my Note 2 is sold and I am buying the S4 (I9500) tomorrow or the day after, but I was shocked after going to the Development section! There is no Android Rev HD ROM for I9500 but I9505 version is there! Why?
Also more things are available for I9505, but for I9500 very least amount of mods! Since I used ARHD on my Note 2 I never ever used any other ROM, as it was so fluid (never thought Android could be that smooth!) and never went back to stock ROM! And I hate AOSP ROMs, so if I buy I9500 my option is to stay on Stock ROM now or what?
This could well be a deal breaker for me!

The i9500 is only available in cirtain countries and is isn't very favourable to devs because of all its closed source hardware. It's why cm etc find it a lot harder to develop for. You can get really good stock based ROMs such as omega etc but due to its restricted availability you won't get as many devs for them.
Would still be a really good buy though. Give it time, as contracts get cheaper over time there should be more interest in them

@jujuburi
Hi,
Welcome to the S4 forum.
Please check out the Help Thread for the S4 in my signature.
Senior Member 123hiten had the i9500, and managed to get hold of a i9505.
You might want to talk to him about how he was able to do that.

jujuburi said:
Okay so my Note 2 is sold and I am buying the S4 (I9500) tomorrow or the day after, but I was shocked after going to the Development section! There is no Android Rev HD ROM for I9500 but I9505 version is there! Why?
Also more things are available for I9505, but for I9500 very least amount of mods! Since I used ARHD on my Note 2 I never ever used any other ROM, as it was so fluid (never thought Android could be that smooth!) and never went back to stock ROM! And I hate AOSP ROMs, so if I buy I9500 my option is to stay on Stock ROM now or what?
This could well be a deal breaker for me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup, that got to me too, unfortunately i didn't do my homework first by checking the development section. One of the main reasons is the CPU chipset, and the amount of people who own the i9505. First it is easier as i understood to work with the snapdragon than the exynos and also most people which includes developers have the i9505 and the ROMs cant work on both devices because o the chipsets.
Now about lag, you dont need to worry, I am still in stock rom rooted and there is DEFINITELY no such thing as lag....runs smooth as butter, but i was still disappointed in the lack of ROMs which I like to flash for fun.

Kids, no fighting. If you don't like something, don't complain - move on. If there is something wrong, report.
As simple as it gets

[Q] Welcome Back and headaches

Hi all been busy with life work etc not had much to do with phones but then I got the Note 3 its awesome but restricted, its a sim free version, I have now gained root access and
Want a nice vanilla KitKat Rom with all the note 3 needed bits (s-pen stuff) but non of the bloat ware. any recomendations???
Xda-Devs has changed a lot since I was last active on here and its giving me a headache making head or tail of whats going on. LOL. looking forward to some great custome ROMs and helping if i can with anything. Regards Phil

I may be a 'junior' member, but I have taken the plunge and signed up after many years of browsing and rooting etc...
You are correct, there is a lot of stuff to trawl through, and I think in part it's down to Samsung and the 101 different models! I started with an old Galaxy Ace that got CM'ed and things were definately easier back then!! Even the HTC One was a breeze, once you'd asked HTC for the bootloader unlock!
The rom's that I have taken a shine to are, obviously Cyanogenmod 11, The X-Note looks quite snappy, and the Echoe rom, but that's only because I'm a massive Pink Floyd fan and they name the roms after floyd songs!! I am sitting tight until a decent rom, minus the bloody TW, comes along. I would like something like the PacRom I had on an SGS2 and HTC One. I love the pac in black feature and the way they were laid out, along with the mountain of add ons. The Echoe rom for Note 3 seems to have a miriad of combinations using AOSP etc... Looks quite tidy, but I'm also bothered by the bloody knox thing! admittedly. Sadly, this will be my last Samsung Product. 3GB ram, Quadcore and you can't do F*ck all to them without potentially having issues with warranty!
Anyways Rant over.....

Going Note 4 from GS3 as looks like Note 5 not fitting bill

I need to replace my GS3, rooted, and it appears that the Note 5 will not have a removable battery. That is the deal breaker for me. I could live without SD slot with 128GB internal but would rather have SD. I really can't wait as the GS3 has issues with charging port and the SD card constantly un-mounting and remounting. I have a USB port to solder in and a new headset jack but will do that after getting the Note 4. I want Samsung because I use the Multi-Window all the time for my Valentine 1 radar detector app (another V1app) and Waze. My hesitation is that Siedio does not plan to make an Obex waterproof case for the Note 4. If through some miracle Samsung keeps the removable battery and sd card for the Note 5, and perhaps waterproofs it, then I will use my wife's upgrade for it and give her the Note 4. My only other options look like the GS5 or Note 3. With my must haves of removable battery, and Samsung multi-window (and sd slot) does anyone see a different alternative that I have overlooked?

Sounds like you've summed it up for yourself and know what's out there/what suits your needs.

I'd go with the Note 4 or GS5. If samsung doesn't at least return the SD card slot to us, then I see myself with the Note 4 longer then I've ever been with a phone.

I just switched from the Note 3 to the Note 4. Was going to get the Note 5 but then I couldn't get a 10,000 mAh battery from ZeroLemon nor use my 128gb MicroSD card.

Nope, I too foster similar requirements (sans multi-window - I've migrated away from TouchWiz since the early days of my previous and first Android device, the GS3). I got my Note 4 and love it... I think that you will be happy with the decision.

TodWulff said:
Nope, I too foster similar requirements (sans multi-window - I've migrated away from TouchWiz since the early days of my previous and first Android device, the GS3). I got my Note 4 and love it... I think that you will be happy with the decision.
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Click to collapse
Thanks for all the replies. I just wanted to make sure that I was not missing something. I'm going to get the Note 4. Now I just need to convince Siedio to make a waterproof Obex for it; Fat chance. I see there are a few other options for waterproofing and I may go that route. My GS3 is huge with the Obex but I don't mind geeking it on the belt clip. I may just get their regular Dilex case and a different waterproof one for canoeing etc.

Now, KitKat or Lollipop
Shopping I see I can get the Note 4 from BestBuy with KitKat but if I go to the Sprint corporate store, or a franchise, I'll get Lollipop. I plan to root but I am not a constant ROM upgrade guy. My GS3 I rooted right when I got it, then I flashed only once more to ND8. Both just stock rooted with hotspot. Each time I have to spend a day reading on XDA and asking questions if needed. I have Xposed for a couple of app mods now on the GS3. I will run touchwiz on the Note 4 because I want the multi-window. I have read through a few of the threads including the downgrade to Kitkat one. Should I get KitKat and run a stock rooted ROM or go ahead with Lollipop stock rooted? I really appreciate those who can offer their recommendations as I don't have time to spend all day reading through threads and trying multiple searches. Thanks clicks await.

http://forums.androidcentral.com/sa...cessories/484289-waterproof-note-4-cases.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7JyEy6-Tdo

Where you get information about the note 5. Samsung would lose sales if they change there note series. Galaxy needed the change the note series don't. I be surprised if they go s6 route. The note series made like the s6 would be over 1200 dollars up to 1500 depending on storage. They wouldn't sell many phones at that price. It's already expensive now on a 2 year or monthly payments. I'll laugh if i see 599 with 2 year agreement or 89 a month for a phone.

bonebeatz1234 said:
Where you get information about the note 5. Samsung would lose sales if they change there note series. Galaxy needed the change the note series don't. I be surprised if they go s6 route. The note series made like the s6 would be over 1200 dollars up to 1500 depending on storage. They wouldn't sell many phones at that price. It's already expensive now on a 2 year or monthly payments. I'll laugh if i see 599 with 2 year agreement or 89 a month for a phone.
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Click to collapse
Just about every prediction out there, google, indicates dropping both sd card and removable battery. I hope they are wrong but tend to think they will screw the pooch on the Note 5. I need a phone now, based on the predictions I will get the Note 4. If I could hold out 4 months I would but the GS3 is tired and wonky. Big companies like Samsung rarely listen to enthusiasts, they go with the numbers dorks. The development lead guy for the Note series, if he castrates the Note 5 by removing its gonads, need to be executed by anti-aircraft gunfire. Just like the North Korean Defense Minister, who made the fatal error of taking a nap during a meeting with the ruthless narcissist, Kim Jon Un.

I just don't think they would do that to note users. We are power users and that's the point of the note series IMO. FINGERS CROSSED AND HOLDING MY N4 TIGHTLY

I can't see how the price will stay the same if they go the s6 route. That would be one expensive phone and pricey phones over 1200 won't move far. I don't care how long your money is 1200 for a phone not made of gold is just plain dumb. I just can't remember ever hearing anyone complain about the note series build quality. Even in phone reviews. But if the world we live in anything is possible so i wouldn't be surprised if they did and i wouldn't buy it period. Fingers crossed

I picked up the Note 4 at lunch and it's now rooted via Odin and CF-Auto-Root. One of the salesman at the Sprint Corporate store deflated when I told him that I would not bother waiting on the Note 5 as it appears to already be castrated. He pulled out his Note 4 and said he had 6 batteries and a 128GB sd card and agreed that he will probably be using the Note 4 for a long time.
I'm now looking to flash a near stock rooted rom. I want Knox gone and I want a bunch of bloat gone. I have been using an app called Multi-Window Manager to modify the multi-window to include the apps I want. It depends on Exposed Framework. I will have to wait for the masters to make that happen or shop for a different app that does not need it. Does such a thing exist? Now off to Android Development to shop ROM's. Thanks for the help!

Welcome to the sprint Note 4 forums David. I think you made the right choice. The Note 4 is a great phone and will do anything and everything you need it to do for at least the duration of your contract. By then you can decide if you want a new phone or keep the Note 4. I personally think the Note 4 will serve a lot of people for a long time... definetely for at least two years. There's not much that you'll need to mod or change to be perfectly happy with the note 4. It's awesome straight out of the box. You have a few options for custom/stock roms and any one of them will be great. My rom project is out of commission for a while until I get ready for a new release and update my rom thread. I'm stepping back and taking a different approach with the next release of my rom. There's just SOOOOO many things that can be modded & themed on this phone that's it can be overwelming and definetely time consuming to build roms and port things, do mod etc.
You should definetely consider running Lollipop as it is much more optimized than kitKat and rom development, mods, themes, etc will be more available for Lollipop and newer software versions.

Thanks Tex! Lollipop came out on top after reading in the Development forum. I Odined twrp and transferred your Stock rooted Odexed ROM to my sd card. I'm about to flash it but trying to find the hotspot mod to flash it right afterward. I just read your whole stock rooted bob7 thread and saw hints of adding any app to the Multi-window feature. I used Multi-Window manager before but it requires Exposed Framework. I'll also be watching for your next ROM. I want to ditch a bunch of apps including knox and all Sprint and most Samsung apps. I am tempted to try a de-bloated ROM but want Multi-Window which means Touchwiz. I also want the S-pen to work even though I don't really know how much I will use it. I could just follow the 'Running list of Note 4... safe to remove' thread but it seems incomplete.
Thanks for your hard work!
tx_dbs_tx said:
Welcome to the sprint Note 4 forums David. I think you made the right choice. The Note 4 is a great phone and will do anything and everything you need it to do for at least the duration of your contract. By then you can decide if you want a new phone or keep the Note 4. I personally think the Note 4 will serve a lot of people for a long time... definetely for at least two years. There's not much that you'll need to mod or change to be perfectly happy with the note 4. It's awesome straight out of the box. You have a few options for custom/stock roms and any one of them will be great. My rom project is out of commission for a while until I get ready for a new release and update my rom thread. I'm stepping back and taking a different approach with the next release of my rom. There's just SOOOOO many things that can be modded & themed on this phone that's it can be overwelming and definetely time consuming to build roms and port things, do mod etc.
You should definetely consider running Lollipop as it is much more optimized than kitKat and rom development, mods, themes, etc will be more available for Lollipop and newer software versions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

David.Dunbar said:
Thanks Tex! Lollipop came out on top after reading in the Development forum. I Odined twrp and transferred your Stock rooted Odexed ROM to my sd card. I'm about to flash it but trying to find the hotspot mod to flash it right afterward. I just read your whole stock rooted bob7 thread and saw hints of adding any app to the Multi-window feature. I used Multi-Window manager before but it requires Exposed Framework. I'll also be watching for your next ROM. I want to ditch a bunch of apps including knox and all Sprint and most Samsung apps. I am tempted to try a de-bloated ROM but want Multi-Window which means Touchwiz. I also want the S-pen to work even though I don't really know how much I will use it. I could just follow the 'Running list of Note 4... safe to remove' thread but it seems incomplete.
Thanks for your hard work!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Be careful with debloating yourself. there's several apk's that are necessary for other apps to work. there's really no need to remove anything other than known bloat apps. Leave everything else alone or you could debloat yourself into some problems. Not to toot my own horn but this ROM might fit the bill for you. There are a few other ROMs here in the forums so look around. Hotspot mod is already included in both of those roms. If you browse my AFH Lollipop mods folder you will find a flashable zip for the hotspot mod but if you're on the stock odexed rom you will need to manually remove an odex file in order for it to work. More details on how to do this can be found HERE.

I'm downloading the Hybrid X Series 2.0 Base Odexed ROM you linked below. You say it has the hotspot mod. Does your Stock_Rooted_NoKnox_N910PSPT1BOB7_SPR.zip have the hotspot mod? Or do I have to flash the Deodexed_N915PSPT2BOC8_N915PVPU2BOC8_Hotspot Mod.zip using the instructions you linked to remove the .odex file? For the Hybrid X where can i read about it's features? The KitKat based Hybrid X Series (Dark Themed) ROM thread is closed. Thanks again!
tx_dbs_tx said:
Be careful with debloating yourself. there's several apk's that are necessary for other apps to work. there's really no need to remove anything other than known bloat apps. Leave everything else alone or you could debloat yourself into some problems. Not to toot my own horn but this ROM might fit the bill for you. There are a few other ROMs here in the forums so look around. Hotspot mod is already included in both of those roms. If you browse my AFH Lollipop mods folder you will find a flashable zip for the hotspot mod but if you're on the stock odexed rom you will need to manually remove an odex file in order for it to work. More details on how to do this can be found HERE.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

David.Dunbar said:
I'm downloading the Hybrid X Series 2.0 Base Odexed ROM you linked below. You say it has the hotspot mod. Does your Stock_Rooted_NoKnox_N910PSPT1BOB7_SPR.zip have the hotspot mod? Or do I have to flash the Deodexed_N915PSPT2BOC8_N915PVPU2BOC8_Hotspot Mod.zip using the instructions you linked to remove the .odex file? For the Hybrid X where can i read about it's features? The KitKat based Hybrid X Series (Dark Themed) ROM thread is closed. Thanks again!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
TheStock_Rooted_NoKnox_N910PSPT1BOB7_SPR is a completely stock rom with no mods or enabled hotspot.
Deodexed_N915PSPT2BOC8_N915PVPU2BOC8_Hotspot Mod.zip is ONLY for the Sprint note Edge. I pointed yo to that thread only for the instructions which are the same for flashing the correct OB7 hotspot mod on the regularSprint Nore 4. Yes my rom thread is close until i redo my OP and get a new build ready. I'll pm you a link to the rom details.

Hybrid X Series 2.0 Base Odexed is installed and running perfectly. Made flipboard Google games-music-news-magazine-...all go away. I use their search engine and calendar. What about Sprint Zone? Can it go away?
Many thanks to tx_dbs_tx. I'll donate again when your updates come along as I appreciate the time and effort spent creating ROMS and the help with those new to custom ROMS like me.
tx_dbs_tx said:
TheStock_Rooted_NoKnox_N910PSPT1BOB7_SPR is a completely stock rom with no mods or enabled hotspot.
Deodexed_N915PSPT2BOC8_N915PVPU2BOC8_Hotspot Mod.zip is ONLY for the Sprint note Edge. I pointed yo to that thread only for the instructions which are the same for flashing the correct OB7 hotspot mod on the regularSprint Nore 4. Yes my rom thread is close until i redo my OP and get a new build ready. I'll pm you a link to the rom details.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

David.Dunbar said:
Hybrid X Series 2.0 Base Odexed is installed and running perfectly. Made flipboard Google games-music-news-magazine-...all go away. I use their search engine and calendar. What about Sprint Zone? Can it go away?
Many thanks to tx_dbs_tx. I'll donate again when your updates come along as I appreciate the time and effort spent creating ROMS and the help with those new to custom ROMS like me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're welcome and thanks for the donation that was awesome of you. As for Sprint Zone, yes you can get rid of it or freeze it if you want. I rarely use it but i do use it when i want to check out things on my account. It's much better than it used to be it it's harmless. I leave it in my ROMs because I don'y want to remove things and cause people to have to search for things to put back into the ROM so they can use those stock features. My rom concept is a little different than other custom ROMs. I make my ROMs the way i like it. I keep all stock Samsung apps and all critical apps in the ROM so that everybody has full features upon flashing. In short, it's a stock rom on steriods. LOL. You can flash it and not have do anything but install your favorite apps and still have that stock look & feel. Take care.

possible solution for rooting difficulties?

Its been a long time since i posted but wanted to share this in off chance it will be helpful. Anyways i have been doing some research to try and help me decide whether i am going to get the s7 edge 935t or the international 935f, 935fd i believe are the model #'s. While reading about the locked bootloader and rooting difficulties on the 935t and other u.s. models i thought about how i was able to root and install a custom rom on my Verizon galaxy s4 with a locked bootloader and remembered using something called safestrap. i believe it just made like a separate partition but here is the link incase a similar method can be used on the tmobile version of the s7. https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2441441

I used the same exploit on my Verizon S4 and S5, even wrote my first ROM for the S4, thanks to safe strap. Unfortunatly the developer of safestrap gave up a long time ago...
Our only option is flash fire. The phone is a couple years old now, the S8 and Note are most of our remaning developers priority. And without a bunch of heads being bashed against the boot loader we will never find the cracks to exploit it.
We have a PR issue with devs. They work their butts off to give us a custom created operating system with a bunch of bells and whistles for free and we brow beat and demand more from them until we push them into giving up and moving on. Just look at the ROM threads for the TMobile S7 here on XDA, @jrkruse has been helping folks like me for years here on XDA, creating ROMs for phones he doesn't even own and helping out extremley amature devs like myself when we get stumped. How do we repay him? We flash without reading, we ignore and complain, we demand fixes and updates... For a free product from a guy who creates in his valuable and minimal free time...
I know I went off script, my bad I am just disappointed with the lack of development and developers lately.
Sent from my SM-G935U using XDA Premium HD app

yeah I noticed theres seems to be a lot less going on these days compared to when I got my first android phone, the Samsung droid charge and after rooting it I was hooked. then came the s3,s4,s5 which I had till was stolen a few months ago and now deciding on what to get next. leaning towards the g955fd which I would like more if it had the physical home button(fingerprint scanner config is ridiculous) and the i.r. blaster although I think I read somewhere that it is f.m. radio capable at least on the Chinese variant. It would be cool if Samsung released a version that was a little tougher like the one that is made by att but it seems as people have become content with what the manufacturers give you these days. Seems like a waste to spend so much money on a device with so few roms and other development options. I miss getting on here and checking out the progress all the developers had made then downloading and flashing new goodies for hours on end but it looks as maybe those kinda things are history. sad