Do we have to unroot the Att Galaxy s4 to update. Thanks in advance.
Sent from my GT-19505 using xda premium
phonetechkid said:
Do we have to unroot the Att Galaxy s4 to update. Thanks in advance.
Sent from my GT-19505 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I took the update while being rooted. If you dont save your root, it will remove your root unless you back it up.
phonetechkid said:
Do we have to unroot the Att Galaxy s4 to update. Thanks in advance.
Sent from my GT-19505 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is being discussed in the various update threads. Some swear they were able to update while rooted. However, most note that they lost root after the update. Others, like myself, who have modified ANYTHING after rooting are unable to get the update to run without flashing back to stock.
hamzer11 said:
This is being discussed in the various update threads. Some swear they were able to update while rooted. However, most note that they lost root after the update. Others, like myself, who have modified ANYTHING after rooting are unable to get the update to run without flashing back to stock.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I changed build prop can I just change it back and install update. Or do I still have to unroot. Thanks in advance.
Sent from my GT-19505 using xda premium
Mine failed at 30%.
Turns out I used the mods for tethering. Renaming files allowed it to update.
This is why you NEVER delete those files in the system directory.
phonetechkid said:
Do we have to unroot the Att Galaxy s4 to update. Thanks in advance.
Sent from my GT-19505 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, but updating will remove root access. Just use the same method you used to root in the first place and all will be normal
cpufrost said:
Mine failed at 30%.
Turns out I used the mods for tethering. Renaming files allowed it to update.
This is why you NEVER delete those files in the system directory.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How about if I deleted some att apps
Sent from my GT-19505 using xda premium
cpufrost said:
Mine failed at 30%.
Turns out I used the mods for tethering. Renaming files allowed it to update.
This is why you NEVER delete those files in the system directory.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Looks like I should unpatch my Email apk and try the update again before rooting my phone again.
phonetechkid said:
How about if I deleted some att apps
Sent from my GT-19505 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure about deleting them. I froze a ton of apps in TB, really treading with caution here as without CWM it's going to be PITA to get it going again! This is my work phone and even though I have plenty of other phones that take micro sims I have a lot of special apps I need so doing it (at least during the week LOL) would be a major impediment to me.
If you nix APKs the updater can't find them and aborts. That is what I have read anyway and renaming the original and odex file back worked.
Of course I had to re-root but that was no problem.
I may be stuck with this ROM in the meantime but I positively cannot work without a rooted phone. It would be like riding a motorcycle with square wheels. Ok that may be exaggerating a bit, but you get the idea.
phonetechkid said:
How about if I deleted some att apps
Sent from my GT-19505 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well if you odin back to stock you should get back anything you may have deleted, no?
SysAdmNj said:
Well if you odin back to stock you should get back anything you may have deleted, no?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I mean if I deleted some att apps will the update still work. Thanks in advance
Sent from my GT-19505 using xda premium
phonetechkid said:
I mean if I deleted some att apps will the update still work. Thanks in advance
Sent from my GT-19505 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dont know but what I suggested to you worked for someone else and they got the update.
SysAdmNj said:
I dont know but what I suggested to you worked for someone else and they got the update.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh sorry thanks for reply
Sent from my GT-19505 using xda premium
I am unable to run the update as well. I have used ODIN to restore to factory but the update still failed after 30%. I even performed a master reset and wiped all data from the phone. After the reset I ran update and it again failed at 30%. Was hoping someone more senior on the forums would know what the issue may be? I an new to Android, being an iPhone user since the beginning, and cannot figure out why the update is not applying.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Will822 said:
I am unable to run the update as well. I have used ODIN to restore to factory but the update still failed after 30%. I even performed a master reset and wiped all data from the phone. After the reset I ran update and it again failed at 30%. Was hoping someone more senior on the forums would know what the issue may be? I an new to Android, being an iPhone user since the beginning, and cannot figure out why the update is not applying.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Restore to the factory by Kies, it worked for me :good:
pakxelaos said:
Restore to the factory by Kies, it worked for me :good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. I'll give that a try.
Related
I would like to know if its same to flash GT-I9505 onto SGH-I337M?
I dont want to brick it!
Thanks in advance
enigma4321 said:
I would like to know if its same to flash GT-I9505 onto SGH-I337M?
I dont want to brick it!
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
NO! DONT DO IT!.
i dont know if you can find firmware for (M) variant. but there is for SGH-I337.
No don't do it. Lots of stuff won't work.
samersh72;4105730andO! DONT DO IT!.
i dont know if you can find firmware for (M) variant. but there is for SGH-I337.[/QUOTE said:
Thanks for the quick reply. I thought the i337M was just a provider branded i9505.. guess theres a big diff
Any idea where I could find i337M odin files?
The reason im asking all this is this phone lags a LOT! and Gallery app is almost unusable from the lag. Any ideas? Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First use Motochopper to root so you can use Titanium Backup to freeze the bloat (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2252248 this one will work).
Then you can install Goomananger so you can install TWRP (menu=>install open recovery): https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.s0up.goomanager
Finally, if you're feeling brave, you can do a backup of your phone first then try installing CyanogenMod: http://get.cm/?device=jfltecan
The Canadian model is jfltecan. Remember to install GAPPS (http://goo.im/gapps/gapps-jb-20130301-signed.zip)
I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY IF YOU BRICK YOUR PHONE.
samersh72 said:
NO! DONT DO IT!.
i dont know if you can find firmware for (M) variant. but there is for SGH-I337.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have a link for the i337 (non-m)?
enigma4321 said:
Thanks for the quick reply. I thought the i337M was just a provider branded i9505.. guess theres a big diff
Any idea where I could find i337M odin files?
The reason im asking all this is this phone lags a LOT! and Gallery app is almost unusable from the lag. Any ideas? Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
unfortunately there is no firmware for (M) variant on the net. There is AT&T (USA) firmware, but for I337,
any way try to wipe cache via recovery.
samersh72 said:
unfortunately there is no firmware for (M) variant on the net. There is AT&T (USA) firmware, but for I337,
any way try to wipe cache via recovery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your help
Whats strange about it is the fact that right away, it had lag. I will try wiping the cache and will let you know.
I had an error when I tried wiping the cache.
Should I install a custom recovery as suggested earlier?
Sent from my SGH-I337M using xda premium
Someone else tried already. Apparently it will run. but without a Canadian modem to flash, there will be no network signal or wifi working.
When we have a modem to flash we should be OK.
tietherope said:
Someone else tried already. Apparently it will run. but without a Canadian modem to flash, there will be no network signal or wifi working.
When we have a modem to flash we should be OK.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its SLIGHTLY better after clearing the cache via TWRP, but still lots of lag. Dont get it, from such a fast phone, there shouldnt be ANY lag! My Nexus 4 was SOO much smoother and faster (yet clearly not in benchmarks)
Thanks for the help btw
I have another question, how do I unroot my device. Is this possible? Thanks
Sent from my SGH-I337M using xda premium
enigma4321 said:
I have another question, how do I unroot my device. Is this possible? Thanks
Sent from my SGH-I337M using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
NVM hehe I found how
enigma4321 said:
I would like to know if its same to flash GT-I9505 onto SGH-I337M?
I dont want to brick it!
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can do it but only if you want to Brick your phone
Hi!! I have the same model and it was also very laggy but I then went to software update in the settings and there was an update!! after the update the lag went away!! Try it, im sure it will work
Thanks, I definitely will try the update. Yours from rogers?
Sent from my SGH-I337M using xda premium
enigma4321 said:
Its SLIGHTLY better after clearing the cache via TWRP, but still lots of lag. Dont get it, from such a fast phone, there shouldnt be ANY lag! My Nexus 4 was SOO much smoother and faster (yet clearly not in benchmarks)
Thanks for the help btw
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I too have an SGH-i337M (TELUS). Did you do the official update to build I337MVLUAMDJ? I had originally bought my phone on the unfinished I337MVLUAMDC and when I did the update a lot of the lag went away. However, I still had to freeze a lot of unwanted apps though settings > app manager, however I did come across a list of apps that were safe to remove/disable on the S3 (Some, not all are also found on the S4). You can see the list HERE.
Hopefully we'll see a list like this for the S4 soon.
[EDIT]
Also to note, I also came from a Nexus 4 and can definitely feel the difference as well, but the Nexus also didn't have bloatware running.
enigma4321 said:
Thanks, I definitely will try the update. Yours from rogers?
Sent from my SGH-I337M using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope!! Mine is from claro a latin-america company but it is the same I337M model!! When i first booted my phone I was like OMG what a lag, this s4 have, even my girlfriend s2 was better, and after searching for information i found that there was this update that gives stability!!
Sobai said:
I too have an SGH-i337M (TELUS). Did you do the official update to build I337MVLUAMDJ? I had originally bought my phone on the unfinished I337MVLUAMDC and when I did the update a lot of the lag went away. However, I still had to freeze a lot of unwanted apps though settings > app manager, however I did come across a list of apps that were safe to remove/disable on the S3 (Some, not all are also found on the S4). You can see the list HERE.
Hopefully we'll see a list like this for the S4 soon.
[EDIT]
Also to note, I also came from a Nexus 4 and can definitely feel the difference as well, but the Nexus also didn't have bloatware running.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mine came with the official build I337MVLUAMDJ and it was laggy as hell!
After rooting and removing lots of bloatware, it was still slow.
What cured my lag, was downloading the stock Firmware from Kies (and saving the file from temp folder, instead of using kies for the restore) and flashed it with odin. After restoring my backup from MyBackup Pro, its fast!
Why should we need to do all this work for a brand new phone. Good job Samsumg lol
enigma4321 said:
Mine came with the official build I337MVLUAMDJ and it was laggy as hell!
After rooting and removing lots of bloatware, it was still slow.
What cured my lag, was downloading the stock Firmware from Kies (and saving the file from temp folder, instead of using kies for the restore) and flashed it with odin. After restoring my backup from MyBackup Pro, its fast!
Why should we need to do all this work for a brand new phone. Good job Samsumg lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh cool, I guess that works too lol. I managed to fix a majority of my lag after running a recovery script called "PalaTool" which was originally released for the Galaxy S III. The tool was designed to remove bloatware and allowed you to install optional UI changes and apps that could optimize things like Fast Dormancy, etc. Running the tool unfortunately doesn't remove the bloat, but it did with the Seeder Entropy Pool.
My son updated his phone last night with the OTA 4.3 update. He asked me to root it this morning, and it fails every time. It seems that Lookout is stopping it. I disabled lookout, but it seems to be integrated in the new software. I tried every method on this forum. If anyone could help, I'd appreciate it.
Rickala said:
My son updated his phone last night with the OTA 4.3 update. He asked me to root it this morning, and it fails every time. It seems that Lookout is stopping it. I disabled lookout, but it seems to be integrated in the new software. I tried every method on this forum. If anyone could help, I'd appreciate it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A quick search should lead you to the thread"s' that already have ongoing discussions about this. Good luck.
Or you can please provide me with a link... I seem to be missing .. Thank -you..
Rickala said:
Or you can please provide me with a link... I seem to be missing .. Thank -you..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This linked thread is still on the front page with this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2526635
There are also several other threads on the front couple of pages of the General and Q&A sections but you will need to read to find them. Good luck.
So by the looks of it, Im screwed.. Damn.
Gentlemen, is their a rooting solution that is definitive?
Rickala said:
Gentlemen, is their a rooting solution that is definitive?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
not currently for this build number, to my knowledge.
We are on the same shoes rickala.
But sooner or later a dev is gonna found a way to root it, I'll let you know when that happens.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda app-developers app
Let us know how to root 4.3 rogers 1337m
Sent from my SGH-I337M using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Got phone rooted perfectly with Vroot. Removed chinese SU. All is good. However I cannot get a recovery to flash and work...
Azizwafa said:
Let us know how to root 4.3 rogers 1337m
Sent from my SGH-I337M using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
cf auto root works on rogers, but you'll trip the knox flag. if you dont use active sync (exchange) then you may not care. can still root and run custom recoveries on rogers. Just typed up a bunch of crap on knox, so not getting in to it again, but if I were you, i'd wait for a confirmed knox safe method.
Rickala said:
Got phone rooted perfectly with Vroot. Removed chinese SU. All is good. However I cannot get a recovery to flash and work...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
VRroot method not allowed by XDA
.Nice try... http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2530613
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
Nice try what? I am not trying to do anything.
A lot of you guys seem to have sticks up your ass.
r1tesh said:
VRroot method not allowed by XDA
.Nice try... http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2530613
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Only direct links to VRoot are not allowed on XDA, but the discussion of it is allowed.
Rickala said:
Nice try what? I am not trying to do anything.
A lot of you guys seem to have sticks up your ass.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I'm not sure why everyone is so pissy on XDA.
Vroot can be discussed just no links as stated... There are other threads regarding all this as stated by Scott. Please read and abide by the rules... Thank you...
Thread Closed
I know, I should be more careful with my phone, and I have read the threads about recovering my phone, but none of them have worked.
What happened was I was doing a factory reset with TWRP and accidentally tapped "system" in the wipe menu. From there on my phone would no longer boot up, it gets stuck at the Samsung Custom screen. Anyone have the MK2 tar.md5 in an archive somewhere?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=49687770
Dude, you really have to do a lot more reading before you do anything to your phone. Your a brick waiting to happen. I hope the tar files get you back up and running but don't do anything else until you learn more.
jd1639 said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=49687770
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks man! How did I not get that in my Google search? -.-
Also, I couldn't find anything on that, and I wasn't thinking, thought it would just reset my system files.
Dhs92 said:
Thanks man! How did I not get that in my Google search? -.-
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Use xda at the end of your search
jd1639 said:
Use xda at the end of your search
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
After downloading it says it's either corrupt or "Unexpected end of archive"
having the exact same problem w my s4
jd1639 said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=49687770
Dude, you really have to do a lot more reading before you do anything to your phone. Your a brick waiting to happen. I hope the tar files get you back up and running but don't do anything else until you learn more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have tried everything i can, i have a macbook...If someone could personally walk me through this process to get my phone back up and going i will give 50$ as a thank you...feel free to email me [email protected]
You'll have to install windows on your mac, ODIN is windows only and will not run on mac, after that you'll have to flash the tarball uploaded by @ted77usa @kerry montana
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda app-developers app
kerry montana said:
I have tried everything i can, i have a macbook...If someone could personally walk me through this process to get my phone back up and going i will give 50$ as a thank you...feel free to email me [email protected]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Check out jodin3. It allows you to use Odin on Mac. Haven't had a chance to try it myself yet...
https://www.xda-developers.com/android/meet-jodin3-a-web-tool-that-flashes-your-samsung-device/
Sent from my GT-I9505 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Anybody got issues with latest update 4.4.2 for AT&T I337 mobile?
Please post here issues you are facing with latest update.
Thanks!!
None of my end so far. I just updated it last night around 1am EST. Been running since then perfectly fine. The phone is noticeably faster than before and has a quicker response time as well.
After the update the only thing I did have to do extra was reinstall SwiftKey. Any programs that I had that were in a paid status had to be reinstalled. Non-paid apps stayed with no issue.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda app-developers app
I get stuck at the downloading screen. I am rooted so I don't know if that is the problem. Now I cant even boot to the recovery screen.
kcschultz said:
I get stuck at the downloading screen. I am rooted so I don't know if that is the problem. Now I cant even boot to the recovery screen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. I was rooted too. Had flash back to stock and update worked flawlessly.
kcschultz said:
I get stuck at the downloading screen. I am rooted so I don't know if that is the problem. Now I cant even boot to the recovery screen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I flashed mine via ODIN.
blacura said:
I flashed mine via ODIN.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tried that too, but it fails. What ROM did you use? Where did you download it?
kcschultz said:
Tried that too, but it fails. What ROM did you use? Where did you download it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What Variant of Galaxy S4 do you have?
i337 AT&T
kcschultz said:
i337 AT&T
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://true-android.blogspot.com/2014/01/install-ucufmld-android-442-kitkat.html
2 different ways to do it. You will lose your data
Hit the Thank you... Thanks
Trying to install with ODIN now. I will update shortly.
Not a issue but the color blending in menus still there for me.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda app-developers app
SD Card Read Only ???
I got a message through FX File Explorer that the SD Card is read only with 4.4.2 KitKat and I cant write to it, anybody else? Why'd they make that change
kcschultz said:
Trying to install with ODIN now. I will update shortly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Restoring with ODIN worked great, must have been trying with the wrong ROM. Now just wish we could root this one and have a variant of the 4.4 that did not have all the bloatware. Don't need all the Samsung and AT&T apps.
kcschultz said:
Restoring with ODIN worked great, must have been trying with the wrong ROM. Now just wish we could root this one and have a variant of the 4.4 that did not have all the bloatware. Don't need all the Samsung and AT&T apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It worked?
JCrawMil said:
I got a message through FX File Explorer that the SD Card is read only with 4.4.2 KitKat and I cant write to it, anybody else? Why'd they make that change
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read this article. Google apparently does not like SD Cards anymore.
http://www.gottabemobile.com/2014/0...ote-3-android-4-4-problem-hits-micro-sd-card/
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda app-developers app
I am noticing that the phone is much snappier now. Loving the update so far.
QUOTE=JCrawMil;50678611]I got a message through FX File Explorer that the SD Card is read only with 4.4.2 KitKat and I cant write to it, anybody else? Why'd they make that change[/QUOTE]
Hmm, not sure. I just tested it with my phone. Moved files to the SD, Renamed, Modified, etc... No issues. I tried with the Explorer that came with my phone as well as two file explorers that I tested out from the Play Store. Seems to be working fine for myself. Not sure why it's not working for you.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda app-developers app
---------- Post added at 06:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:35 PM ----------
JCrawMil said:
I got a message through FX File Explorer that the SD Card is read only with 4.4.2 KitKat and I cant write to it, anybody else? Why'd they make that change
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm, not sure. I just tested it with my phone. Moved files to the SD, Renamed, Modified, etc... No issues. I tried with the Explorer that came with my phone as well as two file explorers that I tested out from the Play Store. Seems to be working fine for myself. Not sure why it's not working for you.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda app-developers app
Overall Ifind the update made my phone much snappier and the data seems faster but speedtest has it the same. The illusion must be from the phone being snappier. I disable new bloatware Beats Music.
I wanted to try ART but it appears Samsung has chosen not to include it.I'm hoping the pieces are still there and it can be enabled once root is obtained.
I have not had any SD Card issues but if I do I assume it may be something that can be worked around with root. So looking for a root method, I am.
Sent from my GT-P5210 using XDA Premium HD app
dankhar said:
Hmm, not sure. I just tested it with my phone. Moved files to the SD, Renamed, Modified, etc... No issues. I tried with the Explorer that came with my phone as well as two file explorers that I tested out from the Play Store. Seems to be working fine for myself. Not sure why it's not working for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is supposed to work with the built-in file manager, but not with third party apps. Can you tell me which file explorers (beside the built in) lets you rename files on the external SD? I have tried several and that all fail (except the built in one).
It works fine.
Seen this posted somewhere, is this method authentic?
http://www.thetechbulletin.com/how-to-root-samsung-galaxy-s5-sm-g900v-verizon-3509/
Sent from my SM-G900V using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Haven't tried it yet, but gonna guess no on this one.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
I'm gonna guess no too, but i signed up and downloading now
Dennisg34 said:
I'm gonna guess no too, but i signed up and downloading now
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How did it go? Has anyone else tried this out?
waleed300 said:
How did it go? Has anyone else tried this out?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Currently downloading still, since I only signed up for the free account it;s really slow. Gonna be a couple hours..luckily I'm at work and can wait
That seems to be the method to root the Developer Edition.
zo0d said:
That seems to be the method to root the Developer Edition.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah I was thinking that too, just wondered why 1. The date was May 29th and 2. It didn't mention it was Dev Edition?
Does the dev edition have a different build number on it? Everything matches to my device. Still downloading the files
Sent from my SM-G900V using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
bruderhood15 said:
Does the dev edition have a different build number on it? Everything matches to my device. Still downloading the files
Sent from my SM-G900V using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here is what is shown on the official site "G900VMKAVZW" soooo ?
I hope will work for the att version also
Here goes nothing....
Well, I got a pass!..but then root checker shut me down sooo I'm not quite sure what this is???
Nothing to see here. It's just a stock non-rooted odexed firmware tar. No different than what's on Kies.
That site/article is nothing more than a click bait.
Walter.White said:
Nothing to see here. It's just a stock non-rooted odexed firmware tar. No different than what's on Kies.
That site/article is nothing more than a click bait.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah i realized that once i did some more research, oh well, made me feel all giddy inside being able to friggen Odin something.. haha
Dammit!
EVOme said:
Dammit!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So I got the Oden3_v3.09, and I went for it. Got the 'Pass' and now I get a different response when I go to Superuser, "There is no SU binary installed..." and TWRP manager crashes now. The good thing is, I didn't brick it. Next idea please.
spinwizard said:
So I got the Oden3_v3.09, and I went for it. Got the 'Pass' and now I get a different response when I go to Superuser, "There is no SU binary installed..." and TWRP manager crashes now. The good thing is, I didn't brick it. Next idea please.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As stated above this is merely a stock ROM which is why you were able to get a "pass"
Dennisg34 said:
As stated above this is merely a stock ROM which is why you were able to get a "pass"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea, but this flashaholic, got to 'oden' something, on his S5... and got his 'fix'!
Delete please
kprice8 said:
^^^^^^^^^^^ My brain hurts trying to understand this post.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He's addicted to flashing phones and was finally able to do so...