i am wondering what Samsung was thinking
when made of this.
Natural mode has washed out colors and normal mode
has over saturated colors .
We need something between.Is that so difficult?
ur thead is a joke
There are no oversaturated colors
All AMOLEDs are like this and I think display is very good.
Natural mode is pretty much perfect imo.
buggingme said:
ur thead is a joke
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this
foxy4270 said:
i am wondering what Samsung was thinking
when made of this.
Natural mode has washed out colors and normal mode
has over saturated colors .
We need something between.Is that so difficult?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed. Don't know if it's worth ranting about though.
henrybravo said:
Natural mode only looks washed out because you're accustomed to the oversaturation of normal mode.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally disagree, natural looks washed out and very dull. My iPad 3 and Galaxy Nexus is much more vibrant.
To me standard, looks fine. Just a touch too over staturated but I like it, like that.
great joke im laughing
Coming from an WVGA TFT LCD on the HD2, the Natural Mode on the SGS3 seems to highlight the best of both worlds.
jhericurls said:
Totally disagree, natural looks washed out and very dull. My iPad 3 and Galaxy Nexus is much more vibrant.
To me standard, looks fine. Just a touch too over staturated but I like it, like that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are correct. Earlier today I was messing around with Screen Adjuster and it was skewing my side-by-side iPad / GS3 tests. I've edit my original post.
foxy4270 said:
i am wondering what Samsung was thinking
when made of this.
Natural mode has washed out colors and normal mode
has over saturated colors .
We need something between.Is that so difficult?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should knew it before you decided to buy GS3.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda app-developers app
Standard mode is over saturated especially in games
and when browsing.
An extra mode between standard and natural would be
ideal for 99% of people.
They should just release all phones with a screen calibration mode after the first boot up.
People fail to realize that humans only see about 10 million colours so that the 16 million available, regardless of screen technology, is all there natural or not. There could be a variety of factors that contribute to AMOLED looking less natural but if I were to hazard a guess.
- people are used to seeing LCD looking colours.
- the LEDS are closer to the screen on AMOLED.
- Complete blacks trick our eyes into seeing colours around the black abyss as being brighter than they really are.
And of course the obvious such as a coloured organic Light source vs a white light source plus colour filter. And also the backlight needed on LCDs.
I think consumers just have to be desensitized to AMOLED displays and it will start to look natural. Or Samsung should do a better job with the natural mode and mimic LCD better. Or they should just give free reign of colour calibration like they do on HDTVs and add a back light. So if you like AMOLED, turn off the backlight. If you don't, leave it on. Barring the texture of the LCD colour filter, an AMOLED display with a backlight would look just like an IPS LCD display.
foxy4270 said:
Standard mode is over saturated especially in games
and when browsing.
An extra mode between standard and natural would be
ideal for 99% of people.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sure your phone will be welcomed in the "for sale" section of the xda marketplace, seen as though your not happy with it! This threads a joke....
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda premium
I use natural n prefer it. I think its just right. Your eyes set a norm so when u r used to one setting when u change it does look strange
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda premium
You know what is a joke? All the US versions don't even have a screen mode option. Oversaturation is nothing new for AMOLEDs but it can be remedied and has been remedied before, simply by providing an option. A lot of people like the contrast and viewing angles of AMOLEDs but don't like the excessive colors. I guess Samsung thinks Americans are all colorblind and took the extra effort to REMOVE the option altogether when they tried so hard to make everything else the same. The international S2 had color adjustments too, but not my T-mobile one. Then there's the terrible audio capture. Always taking two steps forward, one step back.
I quite like having an option to change my screen settings rather than not having an option. Thank you Samsung.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda app-developers app
I agree as well that screen modes could be better "optimised" that sammy would give us something between natural and standard, but different to you i am feeling that was step in right direction, im sure that next phone will have those much better optimised.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda app-developers app
katamari201 said:
You know what is a joke? All the US versions don't even have a screen mode option. Oversaturation is nothing new for AMOLEDs but it can be remedied and has been remedied before, simply by providing an option. A lot of people like the contrast and viewing angles of AMOLEDs but don't like the excessive colors. I guess Samsung thinks Americans are all colorblind and took the extra effort to REMOVE the option altogether when they tried so hard to make everything else the same. The international S2 had color adjustments too, but not my T-mobile one. Then there's the terrible audio capture. Always taking two steps forward, one step back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Due to the chipsets. Samsung used the television engine. The screen modes on my international SGS3 is the same ones as on my TV, producing nearly same effects (TV=LCD, SGS3=AMOLED). Sony uses their Bravia engine in their phones.
Hey guys, you do realise people are entitled to an opinion, right? Stop dismissing the OP blindly.
I happen to agree that the default profiles are not as good as they could be. Simply accepting that AMOLED is oversaturated by nature doesn't mean something can't be done about it in software. So before jumping down someone's throat, perhaps consider that they may have a legitimate concern.
Related
Today I showed the screen of my galaxy s II to my iphone4 owning friend. We both loaded up bbc home page, and the white background on his phone looked much better than on my phone.
On my phone the white background looked cream in colour, where as his displayed as pure white.
Will this be able to be fixed with vodoo colour?
It can be helped with Voodoo color, but it can never look like an LCD based display since SAMOLED screens don't have the LED backlight in the back. And also, an iPhone 4's display has already been proven to be a bit blue tinted which makes whites look brighter when they're actually a slight shade of blue. I've spent a lot of time calibrating my Nexus S screen with Voodoo color and I can safely say the result is a more pleasant shade of white than my friend's iPhone 4. Also with Voodoo color I can boost the brightness higher than what the stock specifications permit so it's even a brighter white than the iPhone 4's if I want it to be, but it consumes a LOT of power.
Dannyboyni said:
Today I showed the screen of my galaxy s II to my iphone4 owning friend. We both loaded up bbc home page, and the white background on his phone looked much better than on my phone.
On my phone the white background looked cream in colour, where as his displayed as pure white.
Will this be able to be fixed with vodoo colour?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cream? Really? http://amishlandofct.com/resources/color+cream.jpg
At any rate - yes, voodoo colour can change the colour temperature.
Dannyboyni said:
Today I showed the screen of my galaxy s II to my iphone4 owning friend. We both loaded up bbc home page, and the white background on his phone looked much better than on my phone.
On my phone the white background looked cream in colour, where as his displayed as pure white.
Will this be able to be fixed with vodoo colour?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the nature of LCD and OLED makes the colors differ here in America. It also makes the colours differ in England and most of its former colonies.
You can try setting the separate brightness setting in the browser settings to 100% (it is separate from general brightness setting in the phone settings).
I bet it would still have a different hue if you look at them side by side.
You can also try taking a friend with an iP4 that is a year old to a store that sells iP4 now, and compare how they look - you will probably see some difference there too, side by side.
He was saying to me, "oh your screen tech hasn't evolved yet, you cant display proper white", haha, "my text is so much sharper than yours".
It was true about the text, my heart sank when I compared BBC homepage in portrait mode. His text looked MUCH sharper than mines. But then he has got a much higher resolution.
I really did feel humiliated, I just want nice pure white like the iphone4 has. I know I don't have a backlight.
RyanZA said:
Cream? Really? http://amishlandofct.com/resources/color+cream.jpg
At any rate - yes, voodoo colour can change the colour temperature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that is a freaking picture of some fabric, right??? because I got scared thinking my laptop LCD is showing banding on cream color.
Haha... I guess the only difference between boys and men are the price of their toys huh?
If you want to humiliate him, ask him to show you a black image. Then laugh at how much light leakage he has. Then play a high quality youtube clip like a movie trailer with some action scenes, then laugh at how slow his pixel response is (ghosting). Also while you're trying to play a high quality youtube clip... remind him that he needs to be on wifi in order to do it because he only gets low quality over 3G =)
Trust me I'd take the SAMOLED over an LCD display any day. Same reason I have a plasma TV and not an LCD/LED one.
Dannyboyni said:
He was saying to me, "oh your screen tech hasn't evolved yet, you cant display proper white", haha, "my text is so much sharper than yours".
It was true about the text, my heart sank when I compared BBC homepage in portrait mode. His text looked MUCH sharper than mines. But then he has got a much higher resolution.
I really did feel humiliated, I just want nice pure white like the iphone4 has. I know I don't have a backlight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dinan said:
Haha... I guess the only difference between boys and men are the price of their toys huh?
If you want to humiliate him, ask him to show you a black image. Then laugh at how much light leakage he has. Then play a high quality youtube clip like a movie trailer with some action scenes, then laugh at how slow his pixel response is (ghosting). Also while you're trying to play a high quality youtube clip... remind him that he needs to be on wifi in order to do it because he only gets low quality over 3G =)
Trust me I'd take the SAMOLED over an LCD display any day. Same reason I have a plasma TV and not an LCD/LED one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What, because you prefer an inferior picture quality? There is a reason the big manufacturers are phasing out plasma.
dinan said:
Haha... I guess the only difference between boys and men are the price of their toys huh?
If you want to humiliate him, ask him to show you a black image. Then laugh at how much light leakage he has. Then play a high quality youtube clip like a movie trailer with some action scenes, then laugh at how slow his pixel response is (ghosting). Also while you're trying to play a high quality youtube clip... remind him that he needs to be on wifi in order to do it because he only gets low quality over 3G =)
Trust me I'd take the SAMOLED over an LCD display any day. Same reason I have a plasma TV and not an LCD/LED one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I second this.
Why didn't you test the black on both screens too?
Iphone4 does have a higher resolution, so it's silly to go comparing that, since it's a known fact.
dinan said:
Trust me I'd take the SAMOLED over an LCD display any day. Same reason I have a plasma TV and not an LCD/LED one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would go one step further: comparing SGS2 screen to iP4 screen is like sitting on a coach 15 feet from TV and comparing a fine 480P 37 inch plasma TV with a "finer" 4K 32 inch LCD TV
Pagnell said:
What, because you prefer an inferior picture quality? There is a reason the big manufacturers are phasing out plasma.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They are phasing out plasmas because they are more expensive, eat more power , are harder to make, and can't compete with LCDs in price.
Real video buffs still prefer Plasma for its true blacks and great refresh rates.
I'm not gonna let this get into a TV debate but it's well known videophiles and avid cinema/sports watchers will always choose a plasma TV over an LCD because of the purer blacks and insanely faster pixel response (no ghosting like an LCD/LED). The mere fact that LCD/LED TVs even have to QUOTE a pixel response time indicates an inferiority.
And this also carries through to phones. If you don't believe me, try it. Pick up any HTC phone and compare it to any Galaxy phone. Go to a black menu with white text... perhaps the settings menu and scroll up and down. You'll notice MASSIVE text ghosting on the HTC LCD screens but none on the SAMOLED screen. Please, don't come back claiming things you haven't tested yourself with no facts to back it up.
Pagnell said:
What, because you prefer an inferior picture quality? There is a reason the big manufacturers are phasing out plasma.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
kreoXDA said:
They are phasing out plasmas because they are more expensive, eat more power , are harder to make, and can't compete with LCDs in price.
Real video buffs still prefer Plasma for its true blacks and great refresh rates.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Real buffs prefer high quality LED panels, plasma simply can't compete with the definition even if fast moving imagery is sometimes better. And I know this as someone who has owned high quality sets of every type.
Plasma's days were numbered as soon as it's monopoly on extra large panels ceased to exist thanks to LCD and then LED technology allowing 42" and above panels to be financially and technically viable with no loss of quality.
Still, we can agree to differ on all that if you wish.
dinan said:
And this also carries through to phones. If you don't believe me, try it. Pick up any HTC phone and compare it to any Galaxy phone. Go to a black menu with white text... perhaps the settings menu and scroll up and down. You'll notice MASSIVE text ghosting on the HTC LCD screens but none on the SAMOLED screen. Please, don't come back claiming things you haven't tested yourself with no facts to back it up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I fail to see where the comparison between SAMOLED and LCD is relevant to a comparison between LCD/LED and plasma.
Oh, and I have tested myself.
What do you mean with "pure white"? To me it sounds like iphone has colder color temperature, that is not better, just different. In fact that would give less natural colors.
Try to change color temperature on your pc monitor to understand what I mean, a warm temperature of 6500K is more creamish than a cold temperature of let's say 9000K.
Pagnell said:
Real buffs prefer high quality LED panels...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hope you do realize LED is just another type of backlight for same LCD screen, and it not always makes that same LCD produce truer blacks, and it does not do a thing to refresh rates.
dinan said:
I'm not gonna let this get into a TV debate ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What he said. I am done.
kreoXDA said:
I hope you do realize LED is just another type of backlight for same LCD screen, and it not always makes that same LCD produce truer blacks, and it does not do a thing to refresh rates.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Obviously, I'm well aware of the technicalities of all current TV technology or I wouldn't be entering a debate about it.
Anyway, agree to differ and move on, as said derailing this thread is pointless.
Ask him to play a flash video from the browser And it is true the iphone's display is fairly impressive but I prefer the bright colors, larger size, and better power consumption of the SAMOLED+
Are you aware that the GS2 screen has 2 different brightness settings? It has the normal brightness, but lower down the menu it has a setting 'Auto adjust screen power' This actually dulls whites when there is a lot of white on the screen to reduce power use. If you untick it the screen is a lot more pure white.
Oh and on the subject of TV screens plasmas are getting a boost from 3D. 3D plasmas are much better than LED/LCD because of their reaction times. Much much less ghosting and as a result deeper 3D effect. A full HD plasma is still the best screen there is right now. Much less harsh than an LCD, better blacks, more realistic colours and less intense whites.
Dannyboyni said:
He was saying to me, "oh your screen tech hasn't evolved yet, you cant display proper white", haha, "my text is so much sharper than yours".
It was true about the text, my heart sank when I compared BBC homepage in portrait mode. His text looked MUCH sharper than mines. But then he has got a much higher resolution.
I really did feel humiliated, I just want nice pure white like the iphone4 has. I know I don't have a backlight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who cares about which screen displaying bbc has better white. This baby has everything, 1080p, bluetooth 3.0, wireless n, hspa+, dual core, android (!), better battery and I think the samoled+ can display colours much better. Also no gay itunes and you do not need to jailbreak your iPhone (which makes the iPhone instable and ****) to just get freedom
Edit: forget about these things
4.3" screen, 9mm thick, 116g, micro sd slot and more.. seriously that phone rapes the iPhone
Dannyboyni said:
He was saying to me, "oh your screen tech hasn't evolved yet, you cant display proper white", haha, "my text is so much sharper than yours".
It was true about the text, my heart sank when I compared BBC homepage in portrait mode. His text looked MUCH sharper than mines. But then he has got a much higher resolution.
I really did feel humiliated, I just want nice pure white like the iphone4 has. I know I don't have a backlight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
funny that you fall for that
put his iphone in the sun and say "whats white good for if you can't see anything?"
they're different techs. besides, true white is subjective. then theres like 150 other reasons why the SGS2 is technically better, and why the iphone5 will actually be very similar to the SGS2.
I can confirm this "cream" or, as I would put it, "yellow" tint to the screen and whites in particular. It's not right - I consider it a fault. My old (now current) SGS has the most perfect, even whites I've ever seen on a phone - even beating thr iPhone 4 in my opinion.
The SGSII is horribly bad quality as far as I'm concerned. I see nothing in SAMOLED+ that improved over SAMOLED. It's actually more grainy, too saturated, viewing angles - bizarrely are off, and blurs slightly when scrolling. What the hell is up with Samsung?
I'd like to get opinions about the SAMOLED+ screen on the Samsung Galaxy S2 from people that hate Pentile screens (like me ).
Do you think SGS2 is a lot sharper than SAMOLED Pentile screens? Does the text looks as good as in a regular LCD or SLCD screens?
It's important that the opinion comes from people that really dislike or hate pentile screens because it seems that not everybody notice the effect caused by these.
Well, thats one to get a hundred percent viewpoint.
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA Premium App
stoney73 said:
Well, thats one to get a hundred percent viewpoint.
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't get you.
The thing is that SGS2 doesn't have pentile but given that is the same resolution on a bigger screen and I'm not even sure if the pixel matrix is identical to a LCD I think that maybe is not that better at the end?
I'm just trying to decide if I buy the phone or if I'm better keeping a Nexus S (with a pentile display I don't really like...) until Samsung deliver the higher resolution SAMOLED+
Enjoy...
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/19/galaxy-s-ii-and-galaxy-s-screens-compared-at-the-subpixel-level/
BarryH_GEG said:
Enjoy...
engadget.com/2011/05/19/galaxy-s-ii-and-galaxy-s-screens-compared-at-the-subpixel-level/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the link! But I already know the technical differences...
I'm looking opinion from people that disliked the Galaxy S and Nexus S pentile screen specifically (or even Atrix screen for what it's worth)
Alien987 said:
Thanks for the link! But I already know the technical differences...
I'm looking opinion from people that disliked the Galaxy S and Nexus S pentile screen specifically (or even Atrix screen for what it's worth)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let's reverse the question. Does anybody like the Pentile display? From everything I've read its really just a cost saver for the manufacturer. So I'm guessing the answer would be no. At least not given any another option.
The screen looks exactly as LCD ..
After going from a Pentile display to a SLCD (N1 to DHD), I was shocked at how a screen with the same effective resolution (WVGA) could look so much sharper even after the size being increased by 0.6 inches. I began to understand why Pentile was getting so much bad press in tech circles and reviews. At the time I associated Pentile with AMOLED, as the only AMOLED based phones (N1, Desire, SGS) used a Pentile matrix and due to this my opinion on AMOLED was that despite the brilliant contrast, it was inferior to LCD.
It's safe to say that the SAMOLED+ reversed my previous opinion by ridding itself of the Pentile matrix. It's almost as if it is an entirely new screen tech. There's not much else to say other than once you see it, you will struggle to believe you could ever go back to a LCD/IPS or plain old AMOLED. The clarity and colour produced by this screen is second to none, regardless of PPI.
Regards.
I voted yes!
I liked the Screen very much.. but my eyes hurt after a while reading.
Think mostly because of the ghosting / washed effect from scrolling text.
i use a phone with pentile right now. i played with the samsung Infuse which has no more pentile, but is 4.5 inch. and honestly the increased pixels are wlecomed, but the larger size kinda eliminated the advantage over pentile. it just didnt look as good as i thought it would be. but it still looked ok of course, just not as sharp as i had hoped. definitely not as sharp as the atric or iphone 4. but the color contrast makes up for it a bit.
Comparing the SII and S is like night and day. Whenever I go back to use my S I can't believe how bad it is. You won't be disappointed with the SII trust me.
RogerPodacter said:
i use a phone with pentile right now. i played with the samsung Infuse which has no more pentile, but is 4.5 inch. and honestly the increased pixels are wlecomed, but the larger size kinda eliminated the advantage over pentile. it just didnt look as good as i thought it would be. but it still looked ok of course, just not as sharp as i had hoped. definitely not as sharp as the atric or iphone 4. but the color contrast makes up for it a bit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, I was glad when I got my desire it turned out to be a slcd one because the ones I had seen in the shop (as well as the sgs1) were all amoleds and I wasn't to impressed with them, the fonts looked very ugly and jagged, a lot worse compared to my old lg arena; For my the DPI should have been a lot higher for better fonts but they are okay. I had to try a lot of browser though before I found which renders small text the best (xscope) so you can make a bit of use of the large screen
Thanks everybody for your input!
RogerPodacter said:
i use a phone with pentile right now. i played with the samsung Infuse which has no more pentile, but is 4.5 inch. and honestly the increased pixels are wlecomed, but the larger size kinda eliminated the advantage over pentile. it just didnt look as good as i thought it would be. but it still looked ok of course, just not as sharp as i had hoped. definitely not as sharp as the atric or iphone 4. but the color contrast makes up for it a bit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is what I fear I love iPhone 4 display text crispness, I didn't like Atrix that much because everything looked like it had a weird texture.
godutch said:
I agree, I was glad when I got my desire it turned out to be a slcd one because the ones I had seen in the shop (as well as the sgs1) were all amoleds and I wasn't to impressed with them, the fonts looked very ugly and jagged, a lot worse compared to my old lg arena; For my the DPI should have been a lot higher for better fonts but they are okay. I had to try a lot of browser though before I found which renders small text the best (xscope) so you can make a bit of use of the large screen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nice tip about the browser!
I had the Atrix and half the reason I sold it is because I couldn't stand the terrible screen. I dont even notice the loss of pixels with the S2 because things seem so much more crisp, like the edges on icons and a lot of other things.
lynxboy said:
After going from a Pentile display to a SLCD (N1 to DHD), I was shocked at how a screen with the same effective resolution (WVGA) could look so much sharper even after the size being increased by 0.6 inches. I began to understand why Pentile was getting so much bad press in tech circles and reviews. At the time I associated Pentile with AMOLED, as the only AMOLED based phones (N1, Desire, SGS) used a Pentile matrix and due to this my opinion on AMOLED was that despite the brilliant contrast, it was inferior to LCD.
It's safe to say that the SAMOLED+ reversed my previous opinion by ridding itself of the Pentile matrix. It's almost as if it is an entirely new screen tech. There's not much else to say other than once you see it, you will struggle to believe you could ever go back to a LCD/IPS or plain old AMOLED. The clarity and colour produced by this screen is second to none, regardless of PPI.
Regards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
QFT. I also felt the text crispness of the S was quite lacking as against SLCD/LCD. But the SAMOLED+ of the S2 is really super. I cannot see any issues with text sharpness down to even small almost unreadable levels. I was sceptical about the 480x800 vs qhd of the sensation, and that too for a larger scree size, but was very happy when I switched on the phone for the first time. Text is pin sharp, colours absolutely brilliant. Cannot go back to SLCD.
In fact as another poster stated, sometimes the very high contrast is a slight pain actually. I wish there was a way to turn down the brightness even more for indoors / night use.
sandeep10 said:
In fact as another poster stated, sometimes the very high contrast is a slight pain actually. I wish there was a way to turn down the brightness even more for indoors / night use.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can go to the market and download an app called "screen filter" by haxor to lower brightness during indoor and night use. Give it a try and enjoy
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
sieudaochich said:
You can go to the market and download an app called "screen filter" by haxor to lower brightness during indoor and night use. Give it a try and enjoy
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. Just what I was looking for. Will make my e-reading at night hugely easier.
sieudaochich said:
You can go to the market and download an app called "screen filter" by haxor to lower brightness during indoor and night use. Give it a try and enjoy
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cannot thank posts on Tapatalk yet so just want to say major thanks for bringing this app to my attention! As Sandeep says, for those of us who read Ebooks at night this is a life (eye) saver! No more nagging from the missus regarding my screen glare.
Back on topic, I've compared the screens of the Sensation and SGS2 first hand and in normal usage the increased resolution of the Sensation doesn't offer a discernible increase in sharpness over the SGS2. Those with eagle eyes will no doubt contest this, but in truth the overall clarity of the SGS2 panel is IMHO superior to that of the Sensation. That said, if a qHD AMOLED phone was released, I'd be all over it!
Regards.
Just been comparing my friends HTC Desire (pentile amoled) with my SGS2 side by side and my Samsung is noticeably more sharper even though my screen is bigger. Desire has fuzzy text and colours aren't as good.
I hate pentile displays. I had the original SGS1 and returned it within a week because of the screen, but didn't know about pentile displays back then.
I didn't really mind it on my SGS but once I got my Atrix I hated the screen, I don't care for high res as I can barely read as is, but the SGS II screen is amazing compared to the original SGS.
I have only seen 4 galaxy tab 7.7's so far and I noticed all 4 of them really have bad white levels as compared to my galaxy note, disabled the auto power saving and there is a difference in white levels but its still not even close to the galaxy note at the same brightness level. Even at brightness 25% on the note the vs 100% on the tab 7.7shows 'dimmer'whites. This is not a rant but I'm just asking if the screens are calibrated that way or should I keep looking?
Also I noticed that the mdine engine oon the tab provides oversharpening to a lot of my photos and its so obvious and makes the images look bd, supercurio has the same findings.
It is a pretty big screen so it may be they limited the brightnes to save battery power. While the claim is that OLED takes less power than LCD that is not always true. When displaying white, OLED tech uses like 4X as much power as LCD. The power saving comes in when displaying images with medium to darker colors.
What is the "mdine engine"? Is this something that can be bypassed by using a different picture viewing app?
It is amazing how Samsung seems to always add some crappy image "enhancement" like DnIE or such crap. Why can't they just leave our images alone, as we meant them to be? It is freakin' OLED man. You don't need any contrast or sharpness enhancement you knuckleheads! OLED by nature is sharp and has great contrast! Duh!
I don't know. My 7.7 is super bright, sharp and with way warmer colors than my Note.
Sent from my GT-P6800 using xda premium
DaveC1964 said:
It is a pretty big screen so it may be they limited the brightnes to save battery power. While the claim is that OLED takes less power than LCD that is not always true. When displaying white, OLED tech uses like 4X as much power as LCD. The power saving comes in when displaying images with medium to darker colors.
What is the "mdine engine"? Is this something that can be bypassed by using a different picture viewing app?
It is amazing how Samsung seems to always add some crappy image "enhancement" like DnIE or such crap. Why can't they just leave our images alone, as we meant them to be? It is freakin' OLED man. You don't need any contrast or sharpness enhancement you knuckleheads! OLED by nature is sharp and has great contrast! Duh!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm thinking the samr thing that samsung might ne limiting how bright the whites can go duebto the screen size but based on what I've seen on samoleds some screens juat put out better white levels, not really brighter but whiter.
For the mdine its running system wide.
clubtech said:
I don't know. My 7.7 is super bright, sharp and with way warmer colors than my Note.
Sent from my GT-P6800 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The samoled plus tends to have more warmer colors than the samoled, is the whites on your tab 7.7 'whiter' than on the note at the same brightness level?
EarlZ said:
For the mdine its running system wide.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is there a way to shut it off or bypass it somehow?
DaveC1964 said:
Is there a way to shut it off or bypass it somehow?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes I believe so, Supercurio knows more about that stuff.
EDIT:
simulated example done in photoshop, anyone with the tab7.7 and better photoshop skills feel free to redo this simulated image
Perhaps one of the other reason that the 7.7's screen isn't quite as bright, apart from the obvious power saving reasons, is an effort to possibly reduce the OLED degradation (burn-in) effect.
Either way, although I certainly noticed out of the box that my 7.7 wasn't as bright as my Note (or even my GS2 for that matter!), I was never really bothered by it because (especially when you use movie mode) the colour reproduction is very accurate, and paired up with the contrast levels, it's still fantastic!
I guess, to me, white doesn't necessarily mean I need to put on a pair of sunglasses while looking at my screen lol!
I just wanted to know if the norm has lower white levels, what bothers me more is added sharpening on some images.
EarlZ said:
I just wanted to know if the norm has lower white levels, what bothers me more is added sharpening on some images.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tried using the movie mode? Settings => Screen => Mode
Jade Eyed Wolf said:
Have you tried using the movie mode? Settings => Screen => Mode
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I havent but id imagine thats gonna give a yellowish cast on the entire screen. I didnt get the tab yet as the store units I tried had very obvious screen problems. Gonna wait for a the next batch to arrive.
EarlZ said:
I havent but id imagine thats gonna give a yellowish cast on the entire screen. I didnt get the tab yet as the store units I tried had very obvious screen problems. Gonna wait for a the next batch to arrive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yellowish? Not at all! At least not with my unit anyway. Sure it makes the screen generally warmer in colour, but IMO, more than anything, it makes the colours look more accurate and natural.
Give it a try! You never know until you do...
Black Levels.. now White Levels, you are a very picky person EarlZ...
TeeeJaay said:
Black Levels.. now White Levels, you are a very picky person EarlZ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since when was it wrong to ask for more product information on what is the norm, if you've got nothing to contribute stay away instead of starting a flamebait.
Jade Eyed Wolf said:
Yellowish? Not at all! At least not with my unit anyway. Sure it makes the screen generally warmer in colour, but IMO, more than anything, it makes the colours look more accurate and natural.
Give it a try! You never know until you do...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well ever since the Galaxy S changing the color mode to movie mode gives a yellowish cast, this is probably dependent on the calibration on the screen we get in the first place. I saw a friend's Tab7.7 the other day and his white levels were really brighter than my Galaxy Note. FWIW, its still a luck of the draw when it comes to color calibration on the screen. But thanks for that tip, when I'll purchase the Tab I'll make sure to also check out movie mode and see if it hits my requirements.
EarlZ said:
Since when was it wrong to ask for more product information on what is the norm, if you've got nothing to contribute stay away instead of starting a flamebait.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it was a friendly comment kababayan, you got it wrong
i have mine set to vibrant... rather like it like that.
it's just a shame it's SOOOO darn bright!
i cant use it t night!
even with screenfilter and other apps... no worky on amoled
FernandoMiguel said:
i have mine set to vibrant... rather like it like that.
it's just a shame it's SOOOO darn bright!
i cant use it t night!
even with screenfilter and other apps... no worky on amoled
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very bright noticed the same with the Note ,
Nexus was somewhat easier on the eyes at night,
But probably like you I like a very dim screen at night.
When the brightness is turned all the way down on the 7.7,
is any banding or other issues seen like many report on the Note?
Blacks are black I'm sure but how are greys that are near black.
On the Nexus they were fine, but on the Notes I seen they could have been darker?
To the Community:
I just yesterday picked this puppy up at BB and, quite honestly, am very disappointed in the display, specifically the hue. All the yellows are washed out -- WTF???!!
Resolution is awesome but the white background when browsing looks like I'm looking at it under old-style fluorescent lighting -- YUCK!
I've played with all the Settings > Display > Screen mode modes and there's barely a change when going from one to another.
Is this correctible? Is it a TouchWiz thing? Will a different ROM help?
(FWIW -- I'm upgrading from a Xoom running Eos ROMs and other than the resolution, it was gorgeous. The Xoom was a great device: heavy, granted, but the bezel width really did set the standard that tablet manufacturers seem to be migrating towards.)
PLEASE TELL ME THERE'S A SOLUTION!!! THE COLOR RENDITION IS SO UNPALATABLE I VERY WELL MIGHT RETURN IT AFTER LUSTING AFTER IT FOR MONTHS!
Thanks.
Sounds like a hardware problem. I don't see how Touchwiz (or any ROM) could be responsible for that. Better have it exchanged.
Sounds like you're using reading mode
Sent from my SM-P600 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Color accuracy is pretty decent on the Note 10.1’s display. As always I’m reporting color data using Samsung’s Movie mode, which remains the most accurate setting of those offered. Grayscale performance is excellent, but our GMB and saturations tests put the Note 10.1 on par with the original Nexus 7. It’s definitely a better calibrated display than any other Samsung Galaxy Note tablet we’ve reviewed. Not quite on par with the new Nexus 7, but getting very close.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7378/samsung-galaxy-note-101-2014-edition-review/3
My (AMOLED) N3 displaying the same yellow background as my N10.1-14...
My "whites"...
The screen on this amazing and nothing short of that.
You must have a bad tablet...
My screen is great.
I have minor light bleed on bottom edge but thats not bothersome and barely noticeable.
Never had any problems with color rendition. Not to the extent you said it sounds like. Its been pretty natural looking for me.
EDIT: Removed link, its posted two above this...
I dont know what these numbers mean but here is a comparison against a crapple ipad: http://www.phonearena.com/reviews/Samsung-Galaxy-Note-10.1-2014-vs-Apple-iPad-4_id3445
Don't get me wrong, I like the screen a lot. But it is not perfect. I think the pentile design shows when certain colors are next to each other (producing less than perfect transition from one color to another).
whatllitbenext said:
To the Community:
I just yesterday picked this puppy up at BB and, quite honestly, am very disappointed in the display, specifically the hue. All the yellows are washed out -- WTF???!!
Resolution is awesome but the white background when browsing looks like I'm looking at it under old-style fluorescent lighting -- YUCK!
I've played with all the Settings > Display > Screen mode modes and there's barely a change when going from one to another.
Is this correctible? Is it a TouchWiz thing? Will a different ROM help?
(FWIW -- I'm upgrading from a Xoom running Eos ROMs and other than the resolution, it was gorgeous. The Xoom was a great device: heavy, granted, but the bezel width really did set the standard that tablet manufacturers seem to be migrating towards.)
PLEASE TELL ME THERE'S A SOLUTION!!! THE COLOR RENDITION IS SO UNPALATABLE I VERY WELL MIGHT RETURN IT AFTER LUSTING AFTER IT FOR MONTHS!
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Was it exactly the same when you first turned it on or did it get the yellow cast after some use?
kkretch said:
Was it exactly the same when you first turned it on or did it get the yellow cast after some use?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, there's no yellow cast: rather, the yellow's are washed out and not at all vibrant. White backgrounds have a blue-ish gray-ish tone and the only analogy I can muster is that it's like the color temperature is "cool," as opposed to "warm." Canary yellows come out looking dull gold; skin tones are very off-putting and for a top-dollar device, it's really not pleasant.
Side-by-side with my GN2, the colors are much truer on my GN2, hands down.
@BarryH_GEG -- thanks for the useful post; I am using movie mode.
@bootx1 -- thank you, too, but I'm not using reading mode.
Here are some screenshots from today's XDA main page.
1st photo is from Galaxy Note 10.1 2014 ed., second is Galaxy Note 2; third is a side-by-side with the Galaxy Note 2 on the left (the dude's skin is a little reddish on the left but it's not bad -- the skin tone on the right is actually much worse).
WTF????
Thanks.
whatllitbenext said:
Thanks for the useful post; I am using movie mode.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I leave both my N3 and N10.1-14 on Adapt Display. On the N3 it's the only way to achieve maximum brightness in bright conditions; like an additional 150 nits. I'm not sure if the N10.1-14's Adapt Display works the same way. I have to confess, while Movie Mode may be more accurate I've come to like overly saturated colors on my mobile devices.
whatllitbenext said:
No, there's no yellow cast: rather, the yellow's are washed out and not at all vibrant. White backgrounds have a blue-ish gray-ish tone and the only analogy I can muster is that it's like the color temperature is "cool," as opposed to "warm." Canary yellows come out looking dull gold; skin tones are very off-putting and for a top-dollar device, it's really not pleasant.
Side-by-side with my GN2, the colors are much truer on my GN2, hands down.
@BarryH_GEG -- thanks for the useful post; I am using movie mode.
@bootx1 -- thank you, too, but I'm not using reading mode.
Here are some screenshots from today's XDA main page.
1st photo is from Galaxy Note 10.1 2014 ed., second is Galaxy Note 2; third is a side-by-side with the Galaxy Note 2 on the left (the dude's skin is a little reddish on the left but it's not bad -- the skin tone on the right is actually much worse).
WTF????
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To me......... In your (photo 3) side by side photo's I think the device on the left is to red and has to much color saturation the tablet looks good to me in that photo....
There is at lease 2 places in the control panel of the P-600 to adjust color, have you seen them?
If you not happy with the way it looks and you can exchange it you should. If you don't you will always have this thought in the back of your mind.
.
as another user said, it sounds like reading mode is turned on make sure it's off. It probably unlikely that this is the problem though since the the only app that defaults with reading mode on is play books.
Thank you for your responses.
I'm not quite sure how to say this without sounding impolite but several of you seem not to have read my posts completely, so please allow me to start over.
My yellows are very washed out: what ought to be bright canary yellows are dull gold. For example: the yellow in the Chrome logo is what I define as "yellow." On the GM10.1, 2014 Ed. it appears gold and dull.
Skin tones are wan and blue-ish.
White web page areas are gray-blue-ish.
Overall color temperature is "cool."
Reading mode does warm things up a bit...but still, I can't get any combination of settings where yellows "pop".
Settings > Device > Display > Screen mode is set to "movie" and that barely affects the vibrancy of the yellows; in fact there is no real difference between all four of the options.
IN SUM: COLOR RENDITION SUCKS.
Take it back to Best Buy?
(I s'pose I just answered my question...)
Thanks in advance.
The subpixel arrangement creates a dot effect more seen in print when looking through a magnifying glass. While not overly distracting, I do notice it at times. My biggest complaint is the blueish hue shift in darker tones when putting the display at an angle. Is this a TN panel ? I've always had OLED and my Oppo Find 5 was the first smartphone I've owned that didn't have a OLED screen. Still, the find 5 screen was MUCH better than the note 10.1 2014. Especially the black levels are kinda disappointing. I think the screen is WAY overrated in reviews. I primarily use the note in darker indoor areas so I have no use for the extra brightness delivered by the white subpixel.
I still think it's a great device tough, and for the price there is nothing like it. I would like to see some CM and Omni builds for it though which retain the wacom S pen "drivers". I don't care for the samsung features, I just want to use Autodesk Sketchbook.
Overall, I'm really happy with my display. My one complaint is that viewing angles seem to be a little off.
jankko said:
Don't get me wrong, I like the screen a lot. But it is not perfect. I think the pentile design shows when certain colors are next to each other (producing less than perfect transition from one color to another).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What I know is that this device comes with LCD display. Not amoled. So there.is not pentile design. Because it is not amoled. The color would not look as vivid as amoled, yellow will look like a bit washout because of the backlight compared to amoled
Sent from my SM-P605 using xda app-developers app
Check this link: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PenTile_matrix_family
As you can see, Note 10.1 2014 edition is pentile. You can also see this when looking at the screen. Transitions between some colors are a bit blurry.
When talking about display performance there's the objective and subjective. GSMArena, AnandTech, and NoteBookCheck DE all run an extensive battery of standardized tests on all the devices they review. All praise the N10.1-14's display; especially compared to previous Samsung LCD displays.
http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_note_101_2014-review-1003p2.php
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7378/samsung-galaxy-note-101-2014-edition-review/3
http://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-10-1-2014-Edition-Tablet.105624.0.html
Sorry folks, you can't argue with the objective.
As for the subjective, assuming those not digging the display don't have a h/w issue, to each their own. The N5's display objectively produces very accurate colors. Those I've seen look washed out and dull. OP's not happy with the coolness of his display. I personally detest warm displays. You can't argue the subjective because it's both personal and opinion.
BarryH_GEG said:
When talking about display performance there's the objective and subjective. GSMArena, AnandTech, and NoteBookCheck DE all run an extensive battery of standardized tests on all the devices they review. All praise the N10.1-14's display; especially compared to previous Samsung LCD displays.
http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_note_101_2014-review-1003p2.php
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7378/samsung-galaxy-note-101-2014-edition-review/3
http://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-10-1-2014-Edition-Tablet.105624.0.html
Sorry folks, you can't argue with the objective.
As for the subjective, assuming those not digging the display don't have a h/w issue, to each their own. The N5's display objectively produces very accurate colors. Those I've seen look washed out and dull. OP's not happy with the coolness of his display. I personally detest warm displays. You can't argue the subjective because it's both personal and opinion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for that useful post -- the gsmarena and anandtech links are especially informative.
And my fears were confirmed: the display is just kind of average...objectively excellent, but comparatively average.
whatllitbenext said:
Thanks for that useful post -- the gsmarena and anandtech links are especially informative.
And my fears were confirmed: the display is just kind of average...objectively excellent, but comparatively average.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Think average is a silly comment. I prefer the display to the ipad air. Sometimes wish the whites were slightly better. But I would like to see anyone who has a better screen on an Android 10 inch tablet
Sent from my SM-P600 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
I have a favor to ask... can someone with a 6P verify that the sRGB mode exists in the developer settings?
I have a 6P on order but I am concerned that is has a Samsung screen. I find Samsung screen colors to be disturbingly inaccurate. At least up until the 6 which has color option modes to bring it more inline with industry standard colors.
Nobody has one yet. Trust me, you will know when someone does, there will be 1000 threads about it.
Also, I've never heard of sRGB mode in Android. I've been developing ROMS for 6 years. Can you be more specific?
Some ROMS allow you to tweak the color output slightly, but not all. That's generally not a hardware screen-dependent thing. I have a Note 4, S3, and GNex, and all screens appear to produce quite vivid colors. Green is green, red is red, and so on. Actually looks very accurate.
How are you coming to the conclusion that, for example, it can't display blue as blue? What are you calling "industry standards"? You have something to gauge that with?
This is from the AMA
Yep, confirmed: Nexus 6P has the latest generation panels from Samsung. One of things we deeply care for is the quality and accuracy of the display through which all of us connect with the stuff we care about. We created a very tight spec (white-point temperature, delta-E variance, color-space accuracy, etc) for the 6P WQHD AMOLED panel, so it was important that we use the most cutting edge panel technology available.
Crazy Homeless Guy said:
I have a favor to ask... can someone with a 6P verify that the sRGB mode exists in the developer settings?
I have a 6P on order but I am concerned that is has a Samsung screen. I find Samsung screen colors to be disturbingly inaccurate. At least up until the 6 which has color option modes to bring it more inline with industry standard colors.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There you go: http://www.androidpolice.com/2015/10/19/nexus-6p-review-preview-so-far-its-everything-id-hoped/
scroll down to the bottom of the article if you don't want to read it all-it's there
Pecata said:
There you go: http://www.androidpolice.com/2015/10/19/nexus-6p-review-preview-so-far-its-everything-id-hoped/
scroll down to the bottom of the article if you don't want to read it all-it's there
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. That confirms it.
chevycam94 said:
Nobody has one yet. Trust me, you will know when someone does, there will be 1000 threads about it.
Also, I've never heard of sRGB mode in Android. I've been developing ROMS for 6 years. Can you be more specific?
Some ROMS allow you to tweak the color output slightly, but not all. That's generally not a hardware screen-dependent thing. I have a Note 4, S3, and GNex, and all screens appear to produce quite vivid colors. Green is green, red is red, and so on. Actually looks very accurate.
How are you coming to the conclusion that, for example, it can't display blue as blue? What are you calling "industry standards"? You have something to gauge that with?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The sRGB mode is new to the Nexus 6p, and hopefully new to Marshmallow in general.
I find AMOLED screens, especially Samsung AMOLED screens to be highly inaccurate in reproducing color. The majority of the internet is designed to be viewed in sRGB color space. Samsung uses a wider gamut color space which causes images to be supersaturated and not true to how they were meant to be viewed. Most of the AMOLED screens I have seen also reproduce white poorly as well. Industry standard white point for digital screens is 7500k. This produces a nice slightly warm white tone. The stark whites that many people gravitate towards are usually slightly blue and not actually white.
Everyone has there opinion of what they like but I prefer industry standard to assure I am viewing things as they are intended to be viewed.
In my opinion srgb mode is TOO desaturated. The saturation is too high with it off and too low with it on. Shame, I was hoping for a middle ground.
The sRGB option is horrific to look at, God this device has terrible options for screen calibration.
Native its massively over saturated with very popy cilors ( ala Samsung )
sRGB looks like some one lent on the gamma and brightness sliders.
It's one extreem to the other no middle ground - his bless custom kernels with color control down the line
sRGB is better on the eyes at night in lower brightness
hutzdani said:
The sRGB option is horrific to look at, God this device has terrible options for screen calibration.
Native its massively over saturated with very popy cilors ( ala Samsung )
sRGB looks like some one lent on the gamma and brightness sliders.
It's one extreem to the other no middle ground - his bless custom kernels with color control down the line
sRGB is better on the eyes at night in lower brightness
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not a fan of the sRGB either, don't mind the defaults at all though
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Crazy Homeless Guy said:
The sRGB mode is new to the Nexus 6p, and hopefully new to Marshmallow in general.
I find AMOLED screens, especially Samsung AMOLED screens to be highly inaccurate in reproducing color. The majority of the internet is designed to be viewed in sRGB color space. Samsung uses a wider gamut color space which causes images to be supersaturated and not true to how they were meant to be viewed. Most of the AMOLED screens I have seen also reproduce white poorly as well. Industry standard white point for digital screens is 7500k. This produces a nice slightly warm white tone. The stark whites that many people gravitate towards are usually slightly blue and not actually white.
Everyone has there opinion of what they like but I prefer industry standard to assure I am viewing things as they are intended to be viewed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, both sRGB (99% of computer content) and Rec. 709 (99% of HDTV content) use a 6504K white point. They also share the same color gamut.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Crazy Homeless Guy said:
I have a favor to ask... can someone with a 6P verify that the sRGB mode exists in the developer settings?
I have a 6P on order but I am concerned that is has a Samsung screen. I find Samsung screen colors to be disturbingly inaccurate. At least up until the 6 which has color option modes to bring it more inline with industry standard colors.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pray that kernel developers bring color control asap because this displey is very poorly calibrated at best. And that srgb mode simply makes you want to throw up when you see it in action.
chevycam94 said:
Nobody has one yet. Trust me, you will know when someone does, there will be 1000 threads about it.
Also, I've never heard of sRGB mode in Android. I've been developing ROMS for 6 years. Can you be more specific?
Some ROMS allow you to tweak the color output slightly, but not all. That's generally not a hardware screen-dependent thing. I have a Note 4, S3, and GNex, and all screens appear to produce quite vivid colors. Green is green, red is red, and so on. Actually looks very accurate.
How are you coming to the conclusion that, for example, it can't display blue as blue? What are you calling "industry standards"? You have something to gauge that with?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nvidia Shield Tablet has sRGB default, sRGB Automatic and Native profiles, so that is at least one other device with it and now the Nexus 6P has it, not sure about any other devices though.
SliChillax said:
In my opinion srgb mode is TOO desaturated. The saturation is too high with it off and too low with it on. Shame, I was hoping for a middle ground.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would agree with this. It's a shame we don't have more granular control.
imdrgonzo said:
Nope, both sRGB (99% of computer content) and Rec. 709 (99% of HDTV content) use a 6504K white point. They also share the same color gamut.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mistype on my part.. I meant 6500k. I could probably tolerate 7500k though as long as it is within sRGB space.
I know this thread is a little old, but I just ordered my 6P so I've been doing research. sRGB mode is one thing I was interested in since I've always found amoled screens to be oversaturated, but I've also always been able to tweak them on my phones (Samsung Notes) through the stock rom. The Note 4 has a very accurate color setting called "Basic" and my Note 3 had it as well but it was called something else ("Movie" I think). The Note 4 got great marks on accurate screen colors with that "Basic" mode though. I figured since the 6P uses lower binned Note 5 screens that it would hopefully have something similar, and was hoping the sRGB setting would be just that. It seems though that the sRGB mode is too undersaturated.
Would it be possible to integrate that screen setting from the Note 5 or 4 somehow in a custom rom or maybe an app? I've not looked into how accurate the settings are in the Note 5 since I had no interest in upgrading to that phone over my 4, but I'll look into it. Someone else feel free to chime in.