hi everyone. my phone has been great until i installed Nexus S Full OTA ICS 4.0.3. it seemed to be ok last night as thats when i flashed it, plus i was texting my friend about 2-3 hours after the update. however this morning i now find that i have no signal.
I have tried installing different roms and going back to the backup but its still not working. i am now back on gingerbread.
what is strange is on the bootloader screen it says baseband and bootloader is version i9020xxka3 but in {about} settings on the phone it says baseband I9023XXKB3
could it be this rom has screwed up my radio rom? i am in the uk and my phone is i9023 any help to get this sorted would be appreciated as my partner is expecting and ready to drop a sprog
Bootloader version is different from baseband version.
The default bootloader for stock ICS is KL1.
The default baseband is KI1.
Everytime you flashed the full stock ROM, it overwrites your bootloader and baseband.
No need to worry about this thing.
What you could try is wipe your phone fully, then flash the full stock ROM back.
If the signal problem persists, you could try flashing another baseband.
Just pick one from http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1116884 that is for i9023, and works well on your phone.
I am in Indonesia and KI1, the default baseband that comes with the stock ROM works without problems.
I sometimes lost my data connection, but this is related to my carrier network I guess.
And simply turning on & off airplane mode brings the data connection back.
Hope this helps.
Sent from my Nexus S using xda premium
thanks for the reply.
i was looking at that and it says
"<<= I9020a DO NOT FLASH!"
so it put me off.. does it mean if you have i9020 dont use it?
very strange now because i can receive texts and calls. i just cant send any or make any calls?
chicknchock said:
thanks for the reply.
i was looking at that and it says
"<<= I9020a DO NOT FLASH!"
so it put me off.. does it mean if you have i9020 dont use it?
very strange now because i can receive texts and calls. i just cant send any or make any calls?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah if you have i9020a which is at&t dont flash KI1. But in ur case u can flash it. You are in 9023 right.?
Sent from my Nexus S
mixtapes08 said:
Yeah if you have i9020a which is at&t dont flash KI1. But in ur case u can flash it. You are in 9023 right.?
Sent from my Nexus S
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hi, thanks for the reply. yes i am using i9023
i will give it test in a few hours
Related
Hey guys,
I followed and read so many threads but I dont know what to do anymore.
I flashed to the 315_12332_00 firmware on my Streak that I bought unlocked in the Netherlands.
Baseband now is GAUSB1A131500EU build 12332 and everything works!! (I did not write done the original 1.6 baseband number so I dont know what that was)
Butt......when I rebooted my Streak the GSM/3G services quit.
If I check the settings it now says baseband unknown!!!!! (?)
There is no way to get the GSM/3G functions back except for flashing the 315_12332_00 firmware again!
After first boot it's ok but after a reboot my baseband is gone again!
I tried a lot to downgrade but I can not get it to work :-(
I wanted to flash to the original state 1.6 and wait for my OTA update or flash to Streak_309_0_00 firmware.
How can I make this happen?
Although WiFi works the device really feels bricked right now, saved a long time to buy it :-(
Someone please, please help me
Kind regards Passie
Me also i have the same problems no wifi
you mentioned u reflashed, but did u try a factory reset yet? that fixed some stuff for me
Elusivo said:
you mentioned u reflashed, but did u try a factory reset yet? that fixed some stuff for me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You mean like in the privacy setting page?
Yes, did that couple of times .
diab2010 said:
Me also i have the same problems no wifi
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, my problems are not WiFi but GSM related.
Mut may still be because we flashed wrong firmware....
i would try the 309 update and a factory reset after flashing it
you may also need to flash the 309 recovery image before
diab2010 said:
Me also i have the same problems no wifi
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Had the no wifi problem on 315 fw with my german streak.
Did the performance update and now I found wifi networks?
One of many strange Streak Froyo errors.
Greetings from germany
Sent from my Dell Streak using Tapatalk
Bricked my Streak
Well, did everything I thought I muust do but now its really bricked!
Cant come into recovery or flash mode.
When I press on button only the lights burn, not possible to use the volume or the camera modes....
Did I really bricked it now?
PLS help me....
passie42 said:
Hey guys,
I followed and read so many threads but I dont know what to do anymore.
I flashed to the 315_12332_00 firmware on my Streak that I bought unlocked in the Netherlands.
Baseband now is GAUSB1A131500EU build 12332 and everything works!! (I did not write done the original 1.6 baseband number so I dont know what that was)
Butt......when I rebooted my Streak the GSM/3G services quit.
If I check the settings it now says baseband unknown!!!!! (?)
There is no way to get the GSM/3G functions back except for flashing the 315_12332_00 firmware again!
After first boot it's ok but after a reboot my baseband is gone again!
I tried a lot to downgrade but I can not get it to work :-(
I wanted to flash to the original state 1.6 and wait for my OTA update or flash to Streak_309_0_00 firmware.
How can I make this happen?
Although WiFi works the device really feels bricked right now, saved a long time to buy it :-(
Someone please, please help me
Kind regards Passie
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We need a way to get back to 309 firmware...... Mine is the same, no 3G, but I have GSM.
I gave it to a forum member with more knowledge,,,
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App
Okay, so its been a week since I got a Galaxy Note...
I haven't rooted or anything and its running no the firmware is "XXKL3" and baseband is "N7000DDKL1"...
The phone was working completely fine until today morning, whenever someone calls he gets "The number you have dialed is out of coverage area"....
While out going calls work perfectly fine.
So I removed the SIM and put in Vodafone SIM which worked fine in Note....
Then I put the non-working IDEA SIM into another phone and it was working fine too....
Then I put the IDEA SIM back in the Note and I once again had the same problem.
I tried a hard reset from recovery but that didn't work either
Has anyone experienced the same problem?
Any solutions?
On a side note if nothing works out I am planning to flash the phone but the HotFile link for "N7000ODDLA1" is not giving me speeds more than 30 KB/s.... -_-
So, has anyone mirrored the firmware to another file hosting site?
If yes, can someone provide me the link?
If vodafone works n idea not working, means service conflict is there. Check call setting.
Latest version is ddlb2
Go to dev section n find my thread n7000 stock roms, it is sticky thread.
Sent from my GT-N7000 using xda premium
dr.ketan said:
If vodafone works n idea not working, means service conflict is there. Check call setting.
Latest version is ddlb2
Go to dev section n find my thread n7000 stock roms, it is sticky thread.
Sent from my GT-N7000 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for your reply Dr. Ketan....
The problem got fixed when I switched to GSM mode....
I was gonna flash it with a stock firmware but I just thought if its getting fixed by switching to GSM Mode let it be.....
I will just flash when Note get the ICS upgrade
[email protected] said:
Thank you for your reply Dr. Ketan....
The problem got fixed when I switched to GSM mode....
I was gonna flash it with a stock firmware but I just thought if its getting fixed by switching to GSM Mode let it be.....
I will just flash when Note get the ICS upgrade
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey there, DDLB2 is the solution for the speed related problems you are facing, radio its much better, wifi and 3G, it did help me, I'm on Airtel 3G.
Sent from my GT-N7000 using xda premium
Hello there, so heres the story.
My mate got Atrix 4g and apparently he was playing in the settings mode and _accidentaly_ locked the phone to USA band only. Needless to say his phone no longer is able to make calls or use any other of the network modes now.
My question is how can I update the radio so phone works with other modes again ? I googled and tried master reset and factory reset with no luck.
Then I found this Hope this is right for Atrix 4g ? and will that image if I flash it over current one will update/over write the current RADIO and hopefuly make phone usable again? Should i flash this “1FF-olympus-user-2.3.6-4.5.141-111212-release-keys-signed-ATT-US-GAS_NA_OLPSGBATTSPE_P012.sbf.gz” over current firmware?
Or is there a way to just flash new RADIO to phone and be over with it ?
Or do I need to root / unlock bootloader on current phone settings then push CWM and use that to flash radios? And if so where do I get said radios?
Or can i just use RDS Lite 5.6 and find some RADIOS and flash them from there?
Phone info
android version : 2.3.6
System version 4.5.141.MB860.ATT.en.US
Baseband
N_01.77.37P
Kernel version 2.6.32.9 [email protected] #2
Build number 4.5.141
Any info on this will be appreciated
thank you.
Just reflash the radio using fastboot. No need to flash a full sbf.
Hey. Not trying to Jack ur thread but i have a quick question that i didnt want to start a new thread for:
Can i install an interational radio firmware on my att atrix? I ask bc i took my atrix overseas and i cannot recieve 3g bc i think att cripples this frequency (900 i think).
Any help is appreciated
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2
Yes you can, I flashed my AT&T model with UK radio
And does this uncripple the frequencies that att crippled? ?
Sent from my MB860 using xda premium
quetzalcoatl2435 said:
Just reflash the radio using fastboot. No need to flash a full sbf.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
anaschillin said:
Yes you can, I flashed my AT&T model with UK radio
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you guys tell me how to flash RADIO with fast boot ? Im not very savvy with whole motola stuff. So any pointers or how-tos or quick steps here will be very helpful.
And can I try with this radio ? http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=34350668&postcount=3
Hi guys,
I recently bought the nexus 4 (4.2.2 , Baseband : .48) but like some others i am having problems with phone calls. I can receive and make them but cannot hear anything when i do (a dial or voices). Skype,Viber etc works no problem so it is just GSM calls. My sim card works in other phones perfectly. Other peoples sim cards do not work in my phone, so it is not my sim or carrier and must be the phone.
So now i want to downgrade to 4.2.1 in the hope it will fix whatever the problem is. I was hoping someone could help me with the most basic straight forward solution. I have nothing on the phone as it is brand new, so backing up data doesn't matter. All i want to do is put 4.2.1 on it.
I have a mac.
Thanks in advance
Before downgrading go to settings > Apps > All > Phone > clear cache and clear data. See if that fixes it.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
shakey789 said:
Hi guys,
I recently bought the nexus 4 (4.2.2 , Baseband : .48) but like some others i am having problems with phone calls. I can receive and make them but cannot hear anything when i do (a dial or voices). Skype,Viber etc works no problem so it is just GSM calls. My sim card works in other phones perfectly. Other peoples sim cards do not work in my phone, so it is not my sim or carrier and must be the phone.
So now i want to downgrade to 4.2.1 in the hope it will fix whatever the problem is. I was hoping someone could help me with the most basic straight forward solution. I have nothing on the phone as it is brand new, so backing up data doesn't matter. All i want to do is put 4.2.1 on it.
I have a mac.
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing will help either change the phone or try other carriers.
I have been facing this problem and tried everything, sadly i am in india and bought the phone from US.
You can give a try to .33 radio and there is a fix in original android development forum by name Fix for no in call audio.
That didnt work for me, try if it works for you and also let me know as well.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using xda app-developers app
Download the .48 baseband and flash it via recovery. Your in call audio should definitely return.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2087227
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
Void warranty?
scream4cheese said:
Download the .48 baseband and flash it via recovery. Your in call audio should definitely return.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2087227
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for all the replies... If i flash the baseband only will it void the warranty . There is alot of talk about 4.3 been released soon so i am tempted to wait for it either...
shakey789 said:
Thanks for all the replies... If i flash the baseband only will it void the warranty . There is alot of talk about 4.3 been released soon so i am tempted to wait for it either...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You already unlocked the boot loader and installed a recovery..so therefore your phone has already voided the warranty. lol.
You need the .48 baseband nevertheless. That baseband comes with the 4.2.2 update.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
scream4cheese said:
You already unlocked the boot loader and installed a recovery..so therefore your phone has already voided the warranty. lol.
You need the .48 baseband nevertheless. That baseband comes with the 4.2.2 update.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I haven't done anything to my phone yet.
shakey789 said:
I haven't done anything to my phone yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh my bad. Lol
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
Warranty isn't voided. Does it say its voided when you unlock the bootloader? Yeah. but in reality, it really isn't.
If anything, you can always fastboot flash back to stock and relock the bootloader.
If you were on a HTC device and you unlocked your bootloader via HTCDev..... then yes your bootloader voided your warranty but since this is a Nexus device. There is no way for them to know that you did lock your bootloader.
I honestly think its a software problem and has nothing to do with the phone itself.
zephiK said:
Warranty isn't voided. Does it say its voided when you unlock the bootloader? Yeah. but in reality, it really isn't.
If anything, you can always fastboot flash back to stock and relock the bootloader.
If you were on a HTC device and you unlocked your bootloader via HTCDev..... then yes your bootloader voided your warranty but since this is a Nexus device. There is no way for them to know that you did lock your bootloader.
I honestly think its a software problem and has nothing to do with the phone itself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tried flashing the .48 and .33 radios... Neither done anything
shakey789 said:
I tried flashing the .48 and .33 radios... Neither done anything
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try. 54
Sent from my Nexus 4 using xda premium
randomnoob83 said:
Try. 54
Sent from my Nexus 4 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just tried .54 . No good either. This is so frustrating. I've tried flashing the system and boot img now too I live in Ireland and bought the phone from America so returning isn't an option anymore either
EDIT ** Just done adb sideload and put 4.2.2 back on to my nexus in a hope that might fix it but it didnt.
Sorry I'm a noon, don't do all those font sizes and colours and pictures aha but basically... I've been on CyanogenMod for about a year now and have never had WiFi issues. Been using cm12 nightlies for most of this year with no problem however, after updating my nightly the past two days I've been experiencing WiFi Drops happening every min and a half or so. So annoying. I've used Wifix apps etc, no luck. I've reverted to old night lies I used to run without any problems however the problem stays. I've consider flashing back to TouchWiz to see if that helps it but I really don't want to
Can someone please help me. My phone is on contract and my bill is overdue so I won't have mobile data until it's cleared (around June) so if I don't have WiFi, I'm screwed.
S4
tyrelldk_ said:
Sorry I'm a noon, don't do all those font sizes and colours and pictures aha but basically... I've been on CyanogenMod for about a year now and have never had WiFi issues. Been using cm12 nightlies for most of this year with no problem however, after updating my nightly the past two days I've been experiencing WiFi Drops happening every min and a half or so. So annoying. I've used Wifix apps etc, no luck. I've reverted to old night lies I used to run without any problems however the problem stays. I've consider flashing back to TouchWiz to see if that helps it but I really don't want to
Can someone please help me. My phone is on contract and my bill is overdue so I won't have mobile data until it's cleared (around June) so if I don't have WiFi, I'm screwed.
S4
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tried flashing a new modem? This generally fixes wifi (and sound issues if there are any)
I barely know what a modem is haha but if that's the case, I'll try today.
Here you have a list of modems. Read the topic as it also has some info and the flashing guide.
You need to go to sammobile firmware checker and input your phone model, country and carrier. Then it will show you the correct firmware for your country and carrier. Based on that, download the modem. Make sure you get the latest modem. If you can't find the latest modem on the linked thread, there was another thread with all the latest modems, but I can't seem to find it anymore.
GDReaper said:
Here you have a list of modems. Read the topic as it also has some info and the flashing guide.
You need to go to sammobile firmware checker and input your phone model, country and carrier. Then it will show you the correct firmware for your country and carrier. Based on that, download the modem. Make sure you get the latest modem. If you can't find the latest modem on the linked thread, there was another thread with all the latest modems, but I can't seem to find it anymore.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm on 5.02 CM12, I downloaded the latest modem for my GT-I9505 which matched the firmware code for a 4.4.2 S4 however still no luck ffs. This is really annoying, i don't know how my WiFi could jist shut off on me like that :/. Looks like I'm going to have to buy myself a new phone then. Can't use my mobile data for a couple months as my carrier has blocked me until I pay off my bill and now with my wifi disconnecting every 2 mins, I basically cannot use the internet. So frustrated.
I've flashed new nightlies, changed baseband versions, factory reset my phone and still no luck. What makes things worse is i cannot see any other threads with people in my postition so help is so minimal :/. Annoyed is an understatement.
tyrelldk_ said:
Sorry I'm a noon, don't do all those font sizes and colours and pictures aha but basically... I've been on CyanogenMod for about a year now and have never had WiFi issues. Been using cm12 nightlies for most of this year with no problem however, after updating my nightly the past two days I've been experiencing WiFi Drops happening every min and a half or so. So annoying. I've used Wifix apps etc, no luck. I've reverted to old night lies I used to run without any problems however the problem stays. I've consider flashing back to TouchWiz to see if that helps it but I really don't want to
Can someone please help me. My phone is on contract and my bill is overdue so I won't have mobile data until it's cleared (around June) so if I don't have WiFi, I'm screwed.
S4
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
GDReaper said:
Have you tried flashing a new modem? This generally fixes wifi (and sound issues if there are any)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi mate ,
Try flashing a new modem it never hurts but wifi is kernel control , see what kernel you had before when it was working good ,check if it was changed in the las upgrade... reflash old kernel again or try a different one
MAX 404 said:
Hi mate ,
Try flashing a new modem it never hurts but wifi is kernel control , see what kernel you had before when it was working good ,check if it was changed in the las upgrade... reflash old kernel again or try a different one
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I really can't remember what date I was on when it was working fine
tyrelldk_ said:
I really can't remember what date I was on when it was working fine
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go back to stock firmware if you haven't updated the bootloader.
If it works fine on stock, then re-root your phone and try again with CM12.
GDReaper said:
Go back to stock firmware if you haven't updated the bootloader.
If it works fine on stock, then re-root your phone and try again with CM12.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Updated by bootloader earlier today :s was told I had to do that to flash a new modem... Can/should I still flash back to touchwiz and if so, how do I? And say I go back to touchwiz and it Stoll doesn't work, my phone is basically unusable isn't it?
tyrelldk_ said:
Updated by bootloader earlier today :s was told I had to do that to flash a new modem... Can/should I still flash back to touchwiz and if so, how do I? And say I go back to touchwiz and it Stoll doesn't work, my phone is basically unusable isn't it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi ,
yes can still flash an stock rom....but why you do not try first
flash a different modem
flash a different kernel
If every thing else fails flash a stock rom, what model S4 do you have I9505?
there are a few kernels around like
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2590246
and modems check here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=50965837&postcount=2627
Back up first most important EFS folder
http://forum.xda-developers.com/android/apps-games/app-samsung-efs-imei-partition-backup-t2955110
MAX 404 said:
Hi ,
yes can still flash an stock rom....but why you do not try first
flash a different modem
flash a different kernel
If every thing else fails flash a stock rom, what model S4 do you have I9505?
there are a few kernels around like
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2590246
and modems check here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=50965837&postcount=2627
Back up first most important EFS folder
http://forum.xda-developers.com/android/apps-games/app-samsung-efs-imei-partition-backup-t2955110
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I flashed a modem *read above* and nothing's happened... I even tried flashing WiFi fixes and it hasn't done anything
I didn't know kernels could fix a WiFi problem, I might try that.
tyrelldk_ said:
I flashed a modem *read above* and nothing's happened... I even tried flashing WiFi fixes and it hasn't done anything
I didn't know kernels could fix a WiFi problem, I might try that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WIFI is kernel controlled...
MAX 404 said:
WIFI is kernel controlled...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, I flashed that kernel and the same problem is occuring D'you have any other ideas? Sorry if i'm being annoying
tyrelldk_ said:
Hi, I flashed that kernel and the same problem is occuring D'you have any other ideas? Sorry if i'm being annoying
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Check and see i if power save is on , if so switch it off
Dial *#0011#
This will take you into the Service Mode
Press the left bottom key new menu will show
Select Wifi... Once in the Wifi settings , turn it off...
Do you have to refresh the password? just in case check this
Go to /system
Open the built.prop
search for ro.securestorage.support
If it says true , change to false
Save and reboot
Also if you are skill check the antenna cable inside the phone..maybe is just loose
MAX 404 said:
Check and see i if power save is on , if so switch it off
Dial *#0011#
This will take you into the Service Mode
Press the left bottom key new menu will show
Select Wifi... Once in the Wifi settings , turn it off...
Do you have to refresh the password? just in case check this
Go to /system
Open the built.prop
search for ro.securestorage.support
If it says true , change to false
Save and reboot
Also if you are skill check the antenna cable inside the phone..maybe is just loose
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Grrr... Power save is off
When I dial that code, the phone does nothing...does the fact that I cannot turn on my mobile data stop me from dialing this code? Also, does the fact that I'm on cm12 and not on touchwiz stop me from using this?
& I have no password on my phone and there was no ro.securestorage.support ... I found this "ro.wifi.channels=" if that helps?
tyrelldk_ said:
Grrr... Power save is off
When I dial that code, the phone does nothing...does the fact that I cannot turn on my mobile data stop me from dialing this code? Also, does the fact that I'm on cm12 and not on touchwiz stop me from using this?
& I have no password on my phone and there was no ro.securestorage.support ... I found this "ro.wifi.channels=" if that helps?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The code should work maybe is because CM , well last option would be to flash a stock rom and see how it goes........how you know power save is off?
BTW in your wifi setting there is no proxy ? did you try to delete settings and do a new one?
MAX 404 said:
The code should work maybe is because CM , well last option would be to flash a stock rom and see how it goes........how you know power save is off?
BTW in your wifi setting there is no proxy ? did you try to delete settings and do a new one?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Damn really didn't want it to get to this, will I lose root access too?
Isn't power save automatically off in the settings? It gives you the option to use it in low battery
& I don't know how to check if there is or isn't proxy. What do you mean by deleting settings?
tyrelldk_ said:
Updated by bootloader earlier today :s was told I had to do that to flash a new modem... Can/should I still flash back to touchwiz and if so, how do I? And say I go back to touchwiz and it Stoll doesn't work, my phone is basically unusable isn't it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you updated bootloader then you can't go back to kitkat roms. Only the 5.0 lollipop roms. But Samsung hasn't released the official update in all countries.
If it still doesn't work, even with official firmware, then it might be hardware related. Maybe even your wifi router.
MAX 404 said:
Hi ,
yes can still flash an stock rom....but why you do not try first
flash a different modem
flash a different kernel
If every thing else fails flash a stock rom, what model S4 do you have I9505?
there are a few kernels around like
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2590246
and modems check here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=50965837&postcount=2627
Back up first most important EFS folder
http://forum.xda-developers.com/android/apps-games/app-samsung-efs-imei-partition-backup-t2955110
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He said he tried other modems.
GDReaper said:
If you updated bootloader then you can't go back to kitkat roms. Only the 5.0 lollipop roms. But Samsung hasn't released the official update in all countries.
If it still doesn't work, even with official firmware, then it might be hardware related. Maybe even your wifi router.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, i'm going to flash lollipop touchwiz onto my phone using this http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/android-5-...-s4-lte-how-manually-install-via-odin-1492230.
Anything i should know/do before doing this?
Did you flash an alternate kernel?
Wifi issues are often kernel related. Not always...but often.