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So I'm rooted and downloaded Super User app from market. I have a bunch of root apps but the only app listed in the super user app is Titanium. Any reason why the other rooted apps (Set Cpu, Minfree Manager, etc.) aren't listed?
Have they asked for superuser?
Via EVO on 4G with XDA App
awenthol said:
Have they asked for superuser?
Via EVO on 4G with XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No it doesn't
Sent from my CM6 powered device
krazyflipj said:
No it doesn't
Sent from my CM6 powered device
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We managed to fix this problem the other night on the irc channel. I didn't post anything because it doesn't seem like many people are using superuser.apk. The problem is that superuser needs to install it's own version of the su program to run properly. The current root method replaces su every reboot. When you lose the su that superuser.apk installs it can't control root access anymore and basically any program can request root without a prompt to you. The fix is to just replace the jk-su file in /system/bin/ with the superuser su. Then every reboot it will just use the one that works with the superuser app. I did this a few days ago and haven't had any problems.
The procedure is as follows (you need to use adb):
Go into the superuser app, go to the "settings" tab and at the very bottom choose to update su (it should change from saying original to something like "su v2.3.1-ef").
Plug the phone into usb and make sure you have USB debugging enabled.
Open a command prompt on the computer and goto your android sdk tools folder to run these commands (IMPORTANT NOTE - Make sure you have the phone screen on and unlocked when you run the su command below because superuser will ask you for permission and you need to click yes. It wont prompt if the screen is off or locked and the adb shell will just sit there waiting for a response. As soon as you click yes on the phone you should get a # in the adb shell):
adb shell
su
mount -t rfs -o remount,rw /dev/block/stl9 /system
cp /system/bin/su /system/bin/jk-su
exit
Now you should just reboot the phone and check that it worked by running any program that needs root access that isn't already listed with superuser. I suggest shootme or wifi tether. tether asks when you start or stop tethering and when you allow a mac address in the access control.
richse said:
We managed to fix this problem the other night on the irc channel. I didn't post anything because it doesn't seem like many people are using superuser.apk. The problem is that superuser needs to install it's own version of the su program to run properly. The current root method replaces su every reboot. When you lose the su that superuser.apk installs it can't control root access anymore and basically any program can request root without a prompt to you. The fix is to just replace the jk-su file in /system/bin/ with the superuser su. Then every reboot it will just use the one that works with the superuser app. I did this a few days ago and haven't had any problems.
The procedure is as follows (you need to use adb):
Go into the superuser app, go to the "settings" tab and at the very bottom choose to update su (it should change from saying original to something like "su v2.3.1-ef").
Plug the phone into usb and make sure you have USB debugging enabled.
Open a command prompt on the computer and goto your android sdk tools folder to run these commands (IMPORTANT NOTE - Make sure you have the phone screen on and unlocked when you run the su command below because superuser will ask you for permission and you need to click yes. It wont prompt if the screen is off or locked and the adb shell will just sit there waiting for a response. As soon as you click yes on the phone you should get a # in the adb shell):
adb shell
su
mount -t rfs -o remount,rw /dev/block/stl9 /system
cp /system/bin/su /system/bin/jk-su
exit
Now you should just reboot the phone and check that it worked by running any program that needs root access that isn't already listed with superuser. I suggest shootme or wifi tether. tether asks when you start or stop tethering and when you allow a mac address in the access control.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmmm cp /system/bin/su /system/bin/jk-su didn't work. I ls /system/bin and don't see jk-su listed just su...
krazyflipj said:
Hmmm cp /system/bin/su /system/bin/jk-su didn't work. I ls /system/bin and don't see jk-su listed just su...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What root did you use? I did mine manually so there may be some differences if you used a one click.
Edit: I just looked at noobnl's one click root and it uses the same script that contains the line:
#copies busybox su
cat /system/bin/jk-su > /sdx/su
so it should definitely be there even if you used his one click.
When you run the command "ls -l /system/bin/jk-su" what do you get?
I get this:
ls -l /system/bin/jk-su
-rwsr-sr-x root root 26264 2010-09-18 06:10 jk-su
Please delete
krazyflipj said:
Please delete
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you get it working? After you updated su through the superuser app then it started working so that is why it asked you for permission when you were in terminal. The problem is that if you reboot without applying the rest of the fix to replace jk-su then you will lose the updated su and it will stop working.
richse said:
Did you get it working? After you updated su through the superuser app then it started working so that is why it asked you for permission when you were in terminal. The problem is that if you reboot without applying the rest of the fix to replace jk-su then you will lose the updated su and it will stop working.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey Richse, I'm trying to get this to work but it isn't.
rose1 said:
Hey Richse, I'm trying to get this to work but it isn't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
can you give me more information, what errors are you getting or what exactly is happening?
richse said:
can you give me more information, what errors are you getting or what exactly is happening?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay, I did the one click root method that is stickied. Then I did
adb shell
su
after doing su, I initially saw on the phone that unknown user was asking for superuser access. Of course, "unknown user" is me so I granted it. Then I saw the # then I went ahead and did
mount -t rfs -o remount,rw /dev/block/stl9 /system
That worked fine . The line repeated itself which indicates that it worked. When I do
cp /system/bin/su /system/bin/jk-su
it then says cp: not found.
Just to give you a little more info, I just restored my phone with odin to factory defaults, then I updated to the DI07 update. Then I installed the final clockwork mod recovery, then I did the one click root method. Then I installed superuser in the system/app folder.
rose1 said:
Okay, I did the one click root method that is stickied. Then I did
adb shell
su
after doing su, I initially saw on the phone that unknown user was asking for superuser access. Of course, "unknown user" is me so I granted it. Then I saw the # then I went ahead and did
mount -t rfs -o remount,rw /dev/block/stl9 /system
That worked fine . The line repeated itself which indicates that it worked. When I do
cp /system/bin/su /system/bin/jk-su
it then says cp: not found.
Just to give you a little more info, I just restored my phone with odin to factory defaults, then I updated to the DI07 update. Then I installed the final clockwork mod recovery, then I did the one click root method. Then I installed superuser in the system/app folder.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure why cp doesn't work, it just means copy. An alternative to try is to delete jk-su and replace it with the su you updated. Use these commands in place of the cp command:
rm /system/bin/jk-su
cat /system/bin/su > /system/bin/jk-su
Make sure you do this after updating su in the superuser app and without rebooting in between. Let me know if you have any problems.
followed instructions. no errors but i still have no programs asking for permission. i had wifi tether downloaded before and it worked. I downloaded shootme to see if it would ask for permission and it didnt - but it works. neithe one is lited in superuser either.
listed is:
adfree / quickboot / root manager / startup manager ( 3 of them) / super manager / unknown ( spawned right after i followed instrution)
any ideas
uninstall supersuser and reinstalled:
listed apps now:
adfree / busybox installer / root explorer / rootmanager / sufbs / tit backup
again not sure is it is correct. but seems to work "I THINK"
spdwiz18 said:
followed instructions. no errors but i still have no programs asking for permission. i had wifi tether downloaded before and it worked. I downloaded shootme to see if it would ask for permission and it didnt - but it works. neithe one is lited in superuser either.
listed is:
adfree / quickboot / root manager / startup manager ( 3 of them) / super manager / unknown ( spawned right after i followed instrution)
any ideas
uninstall supersuser and reinstalled:
listed apps now:
adfree / busybox installer / root explorer / rootmanager / sufbs / tit backup
again not sure is it is correct. but seems to work "I THINK"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When you go to update su in the superuser app does it say "original" and then change or does it stay updated after you reboot?
richse said:
When you go to update su in the superuser app does it say "original" and then change or does it stay updated after you reboot?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what i have:
cwm 2.5.1
root 2.1.1
di07
now for the long and skinny:
i checked. went to superuser and it told me 2.3.1 -ef i then HARD rebooted, came back with no root.and superuser told be original, hard reboot again, still no root. So one more time- third time is a charm - i have root and superuser told me 2.3.1 -ef
thanks again for the help.
i think my phone might not be total stable.. lol
any ideas.
also - i thought about upping root to most recent but unsure if i need to unroot or if i can install over it. your thoughts on this matter!!!!
spdwiz18 said:
what i have:
cwm 2.5.1
root 2.1.1
di07
now for the long and skinny:
i checked. went to superuser and it told me 2.3.1 -ef i then HARD rebooted, came back with no root.and superuser told be original, hard reboot again, still no root. So one more time- third time is a charm - i have root and superuser told me 2.3.1 -ef
thanks again for the help.
i think my phone might not be total stable.. lol
any ideas.
also - i thought about upping root to most recent but unsure if i need to unroot or if i can install over it. your thoughts on this matter!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt you need to update root. The root I used was the original manual method by joeykrim. The one click just automates that method. There is no reason why you should have to reboot multiple times to get this working. You basically just replaced a file with a similar file and the script that was installed when you rooted uses that file to create a new su every time you reboot. Personally, I would wipe to stock with Odin and then use the manual root method to make sure nothing funny is going on with your phone. When you rebooted and the su was "original" you didn't lose root, it just meant that superuser wouldn't work. For now, as long as the 2.3.1 -ef sticks around superuser will work just fine. As an alternative you could try noobnl's newest stuff. Looks like he made it compatible with superuser, so I think that would negate the need to use this type of fix. I'm not sure what he did to add the compatibility but you could probably ask him.
if you flash noobnl's latest kernel, it includes superuser and it works perfectly.
rose1 said:
if you flash noobnl's latest kernel, it includes superuser and it works perfectly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only issue I see with that is you have to use a DG27 kernel. If you want to use a DI07 kernel you still need to use this fix.
richse said:
The only issue I see with that is you have to use a DG27 kernel. If you want to use a DI07 kernel you still need to use this fix.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very true. I didn't think about that.
I have latest Noobls kernel flashed on top of DI07 and this fix did not work.First thing that dint work is i never got SuperUser prompt after i typed su in adb shell,i got su in windows but no prompt on the phone.
To make it short i did the whole procedure from BetterTerminal(now i got su prompt) rebooted and back to same problem.Man,this been bugin me for two days now,sometimes i reboot the phone and i have root permissions then i reboot again and they are gone!
Big question is:is everybody on Epic have same issue or is it just on certain phones,kernels or roms?
hey well i got to this point :
# # /data/local/tmp/root
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
anyhow when i run this it says:
cp: can't stat '/sdcard/superuser.apk': no such file or directory
then is the same but with su
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i went ahead and put sync anyhow and when i restart and run 'su' but is says: unknown user root
any ideas what i did wrong? :/
oh and btw somehow i have S-off...
i followed each step, but i just notices this... for some reason it wont let me push superuser.apk or su, all of the other files can be pushed... any ideas?
no one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU9zn_BEth4 i did that way and it works for me.
but i have s-off i supposed to be rooted already but i do not have super user powers... what do i do
Did you copy the Superuser.apk file to the root of your SDcard?
yes i did, and su too and now when i put su on my phone it says unknown user root :/
i can get temporal rooting tough.
Use visionary r13 ... had same issue... worked for me
Get it from pauls visionary thread on Modaco.
Sent from my HTC Vision using XDA App
i had the same situation with u few days ago. just follow http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=834228 and u only need do the temp root part.
Delete visionary and superuser first, install terminal emulator from market.
on you pc:
$ adb push su /sdcard/su
$ adb push Superuser.apk /sdcard/Superuser.apk
$ adb push rage /data/local/tmp/rage
$ adb push busybox /data/local/tmp/busybox
$ adb push root /data/local/tmp/root
$ adb shell chmod 0755 /data/local/tmp/*
Then on you G2, open a terminal emulator
Launch Terminal Emulator---/data/local/tmp/rage----Wait for the message: "Forked #### childs."------Menu > Reset Term - Terminal Emulator will exit.-----Launch Terminal Emulator, it Force Closes. Launch a second time, and you'll have a root shell----- run the /data/local/tmp/root script here.---sync.
In the last step, u can find the origin thread dose not let u do this. but, if you've got s-off, trust me, just do the last step "/data/local/tmp/root", and when u see a feedback "****files exist",then "sync",
I got s-off, flashed clockwork recovery and baconbits
setcpu is also working
but when I try typed su then reboot in terminal
it says not permitted
and when I want to get rid of the bloatware ie Finance
root explorer refuses to switch to r/w in data folder
any suggestions
u can also do what i suggested in the 8th floor.
o>c said:
I got s-off, flashed clockwork recovery and baconbits
setcpu is also working
but when I try typed su then reboot in terminal
it says not permitted
and when I want to get rid of the bloatware ie Finance
root explorer refuses to switch to r/w in data folder
any suggestions
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
r u rspt in Gfan? since u can read chinese, just look at here. http://www.hiapk.com/thread-631413-1-3.html
I made this thread to help solve such problem.
After I got S-off, I didn't have root either. I just jumped on visionary (made sure run on boot wasn't checked), clicked root now. And boom, that was it. Then I deleted visionary and I've had root ever since...
Hi, when I tried to flash a rom using ROM Manager, it said that I don't have ClockWork mod, which I do. Also when I try to flash the ClockWork Mod it says
"An error occurred while attempting to run privileged commands".
Any ideas why that happened? Thanks.
Have u rooted it?
Sent from my HTC click using XDA App
i guess andynroid is right... sounds, as if the root wasn't done... just check this possibility
my description in this thread also gives you a brief overview about the steps to flash your rom
I'm having a similar issue:
Any apps state that i don't have root access, but the adb shell starts in # and i'm able to navigate in /system and so on.
RomManager is apparently not able to install the recovery, allthough the 1-click thingy did finish successfully.
the root checker app complains about /system/xbin/su which i can't seem to find in the adb shell
any suggestions?
wolf.thalian said:
I'm having a similar issue:
Any apps state that i don't have root access, but the adb shell starts in # and i'm able to navigate in /system and so on.
RomManager is apparently not able to install the recovery, allthough the 1-click thingy did finish successfully.
the root checker app complains about /system/xbin/su which i can't seem to find in the adb shell
any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
try typing in a root shell: ln /system/bin/su /system/xbin/su
Does GingerBreak work with this version of Gingerbread 4.5.601.A955.Verizon.en.us? My phone is currently rooted with Z4Root 1.3. Is there an easy way of doing this?
Sam
Use the d3 root method. Works fine.
CM7GB-601
The D3 one click didnt work for me. It tries to reboot and the phone sits at the "Battery OK OK to Program Transfer Mode: USB" mode.
I was rooted before the update. I never used ROMS or anything just rooted for wireless tether and T backup. Not sure how to proceed but Im pretty happy with the update, fixed a bunch of issues for me.
Anyone else not able to root after the ginger ota?
acavallini said:
The D3 one click didnt work for me. It tries to reboot and the phone sits at the "Battery OK OK to Program Transfer Mode: USB" mode.
I was rooted before the update. I never used ROMS or anything just rooted for wireless tether and T backup. Not sure how to proceed but Im pretty happy with the update, fixed a bunch of issues for me.
Anyone else not able to root after the ginger ota?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have the phone in PC Mode (instead of Mass Storage.) I don't know if that makes a difference.
The D3 Method worked great for me and my wife's phone.
Hi everyone,
I have the same question as CSSZiegler, but want to expand on it a little bit...
I have a Droid 2 that was rooted with Z4Root 1.3 several months ago. I also have SetCPU, SuperUser and Titanium Backup. No custom ROMs installed. Big Red just pushed down GB, and of course, I've lost root access. I'd like to regain root again without losing any contacts, Handcent messages, etc. I've read on several forums that the D2 can be rooted just like the D3 with a simple "one-click" operation referenced by quarky42 earlier.
Any opinions or experience with this? I greatly appreciate any and all assistance!
update
My phone downloads the update, I click install now... it reboots and starts the install, then about 35% of the way through, it turns to a triangle with ! Inside. Phone reboots and displays message software update failed. Anyone know where to find a logfile or have any suggestions?
Droid2 android 2.2.. rooted. No custom rom.
Did you fully SBF to stock using RSDLite?
Also http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1246673 has a flashable version.
I will as soon as I get a computer again, thanks for the link. Unfortunately my mobo died yesterday. So I was hoping for an alternative solution. It would also be nice to keep all my texts.. I'll google that one.
So any ideas on the logs or an alternative solution?
Ok... I have also used Z4root. I got the update, it failed. I unrooted with Z4root. Re-downloaded the update, it failed. I tried to reinstall the kindle and blockbuster app. Re-downloaded the update, it failed. I reset to factory. Re-downloaded the update, it failed. Downloaded root checker, ran root checker, it said that I am not rooted. Re-downloaded the update, it failed.
This is the Detailed Results I got from the Advanced Root Checker:
Root Access is not properly configured or was not granted.
Superuser.apk - is NOT installed!
The application Superuser is recommended as it provides basic security and is available for free in the Android Market
System Environment PATH: /sbin /system/sbin /system/bin /system/xbin
The adb binary is set to default shell user access as a standard non-root user
Standard su binary location: ls -l /system/bin/su:
/system/bin/su: No such file or directory
Standard su binary location: ls -l /system/xbin/su:
/system/xbin/su: No such file or directory
Alternate su binary location: ls -l /sbin/su:
/sbin/su: Permission denied
Alternate su type binary location: ls -l /system/xbin/sudo:
/system/xbin/sudo: No such file or directory
SU binary not found or not operating properly
Results provided on your DROID2 device by Root Checker version 3.7 from joeykrim in the Android Market -
___________________________________________
Have I done something wrong??? I don`t understand why I can not get the update. Please help.
Ardalee said:
Ok... I have also used Z4root. I got the update, it failed. I unrooted with Z4root. Re-downloaded the update, it failed. I tried to reinstall the kindle and blockbuster app. Re-downloaded the update, it failed. I reset to factory. Re-downloaded the update, it failed. Downloaded root checker, ran root checker, it said that I am not rooted. Re-downloaded the update, it failed.
This is the Detailed Results I got from the Advanced Root Checker:
Root Access is not properly configured or was not granted.
Superuser.apk - is NOT installed!
The application Superuser is recommended as it provides basic security and is available for free in the Android Market
System Environment PATH: /sbin /system/sbin /system/bin /system/xbin
The adb binary is set to default shell user access as a standard non-root user
Standard su binary location: ls -l /system/bin/su:
/system/bin/su: No such file or directory
Standard su binary location: ls -l /system/xbin/su:
/system/xbin/su: No such file or directory
Alternate su binary location: ls -l /sbin/su:
/sbin/su: Permission denied
Alternate su type binary location: ls -l /system/xbin/sudo:
/system/xbin/sudo: No such file or directory
SU binary not found or not operating properly
Results provided on your DROID2 device by Root Checker version 3.7 from joeykrim in the Android Market -
___________________________________________
Have I done something wrong??? I don`t understand why I can not get the update. Please help.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I answered the thread you started with the process to un root and put your phone back to stock.
acavallini said:
The D3 one click didnt work for me. It tries to reboot and the phone sits at the "Battery OK OK to Program Transfer Mode: USB" mode.
I was rooted before the update. I never used ROMS or anything just rooted for wireless tether and T backup. Not sure how to proceed but Im pretty happy with the update, fixed a bunch of issues for me.
Anyone else not able to root after the ginger ota?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had the same problem, and I think it is is because we already had Superuser installed. To remove it, from the directory where you downloaded the one click root, open the command window, then type adb shell
when you hit enter, the next line should end with a #
if it's $, run the one click again, then start this over
once you have the # prompt, type
mount -oremount,rw /dev/block/system /system
rm /system/bin/su
rm /system/xbin/su
hitting enter after each line.
After doing this, run the one click, and it should be fine. Worked great for me.
808Bill said:
I had the same problem, and I think it is is because we already had Superuser installed. To remove it, from the directory where you downloaded the one click root, open the command window, then type adb shell
when you hit enter, the next line should end with a #
if it's $, run the one click again, then start this over
once you have the # prompt, type
mount -oremount,rw /dev/block/system /system
rm /system/bin/su
rm /system/xbin/su
hitting enter after each line.
After doing this, run the one click, and it should be fine. Worked great for me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Awesome! That did the trick, thanks for the info
808Bill said:
I had the same problem, and I think it is is because we already had Superuser installed. To remove it, from the directory where you downloaded the one click root, open the command window, then type adb shell
when you hit enter, the next line should end with a #
if it's $, run the one click again, then start this over
once you have the # prompt, type
mount -oremount,rw /dev/block/system /system
rm /system/bin/su
rm /system/xbin/su
hitting enter after each line.
After doing this, run the one click, and it should be fine. Worked great for me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm having the same problem as the original poster... Installed gingerbread with z4root... phone was already rooted.. Now I have superuser and can't get rid of it.. .Tried unrooting through z4 and it doesn't work... Tried gingerbreak and the one click root through windows... Neither of those worked...
I either want to root through gingerbread or just get rid of the superuser.
when I type adb shell in command prompt (in windows 7) it says adb is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
Any ideas? Thanks.
droid888 said:
I'm having the same problem as the original poster... Installed gingerbread with z4root... phone was already rooted.. Now I have superuser and can't get rid of it.. .Tried unrooting through z4 and it doesn't work... Tried gingerbreak and the one click root through windows... Neither of those worked...
I either want to root through gingerbread or just get rid of the superuser.
when I type adb shell in command prompt (in windows 7) it says adb is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
Any ideas? Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would SBF back to Froyo with RSDLite and install the OTA GB from phone info updates. After that use the D3 one click root method and you're golden.
droid888 said:
I'm having the same problem as the original poster... Installed gingerbread with z4root... phone was already rooted.. Now I have superuser and can't get rid of it.. .Tried unrooting through z4 and it doesn't work... Tried gingerbreak and the one click root through windows... Neither of those worked...
I either want to root through gingerbread or just get rid of the superuser.
when I type adb shell in command prompt (in windows 7) it says adb is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
Any ideas? Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That error is usually because your trying to run the program from the wrong directory. Make sure your command line is started from the folder that adb.exe is located in. You can do this by Shift and right mouse button and “open command window here”.
acavallini said:
That error is usually because your trying to run the program from the wrong directory. Make sure your command line is started from the folder that adb.exe is located in. You can do this by Shift and right mouse button and “open command window here”.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I searched the phone's sd card.. I couldn't find it... do you know where adb.exe is located?
The fact that he said to hold shift and the right mouse button should tell you he's talking about a folder on your computer and not on your SD card.
idefiler6 said:
The fact that he said to hold shift and the right mouse button should tell you he's talking about a folder on your computer and not on your SD card.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Finally got it to work... now.. I used motorola one click root.exe where you use the exe on the computer. Just out of curiosity, is there a one click method to unroot? Thanks!
Hi
I have rooted my Fire with zergRush and confirmed with adb shell
Code:
# id
uid=0 gid=0
but after rebooting the Fire it seems to have gone as the prompt returned to $
Is this usual?
I'm on a MAC and the Fire is 6.2. I can root again but obviously it would be good if it remained after a reboot.
Any help would be much appreciated
edit: but now I'm not so sure.. SU from adb shell returns 'not found' and when running a terminal app I have on the Fire the prompt is $ and SU returns 'permission denied'.
I'm not really one who should answer this as I'll not really up on the different exploits used for rooting but...
My understanding was that zergRush got you a temporary root which was enough to enable you to remount /system as RW which then let's you install su and busybox and the superuser.apk which then gives you permanent root.
Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk
Like bsoplinger said,
zergRush is the exploit most are using to gain root, and then while having root allow you to install tools which survive the reboot cycle to continue to provide root from that point on.
Busybox, su and superuser are those tools.
Thanks very much, certainly gives me more to go on although I'm a bit confused as to when I should be installing tools using adb and when I should be using a file manager. Probably neither and I have the wrong end of the stick no probs.. on on
edit: I think I've got it... can't thank you enough your advice has saved me hours I'm sure but I will wait till the morning. I'd rather brick it with a fresh head than the one on my shoulders now.