Database Users

Performance drops after some time

Hi,
I have noticed that my Nexus' performance starts to drop after some hours on: going from one home screen to the other becomes quite choppy, and so do the animations of opening an application.
Have you guys noticed that too, or is it just me?

It was like this for me until I bought Advanced Task Manager. I have it auto end applications that I don't need to run all the time. It runs much better now.

The issue is RAM. The kernel that shipped with the Nexus One doesn't support the full 512MB of RAM. However, CyanogenMod 5.0-beta4 does and the difference in speed is amazing. With 26 apps running I have 167MB free atm.
But like stickerbob said, you should have Advanced Task Manager at the least.

Deathwish238 said:
The issue is RAM. The kernel that shipped with the Nexus One doesn't support the full 512MB of RAM. However, CyanogenMod 5.0-beta4 does and the difference in speed is amazing. With 26 apps running I have 167MB free atm.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't get it. Isn't Android supposed to kill unused apps when it's running out of RAM?

frandavid100 said:
I don't get it. Isn't Android supposed to kill unused apps when it's running out of RAM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep but some people just don't get that, ah well...

efeltee said:
Yep but some people just don't get that, ah well...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, that doesn't really explain the performance drops. Does the phone run out of RAM, or not? It seems to be snappy again after a reboot, so there must be something.

frandavid100 said:
I don't get it. Isn't Android supposed to kill unused apps when it's running out of RAM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is what I have read, but it did not work for me. I downloaded the free version of advanced task man to troubleshoot the problem and found that most of my apps were still running in the background even when my ram was down to 10-20mb. That is about when the phone would start acting up on me. When I ended the tasks the phone would act normal again. So I just broke down and bought the app for $.99. If you do this make sure you exclude some system apps, if you don't your phone could freeze while it is trying to restart them.

10-20mb free is normal operation. This is how the OS is designed to operate, linux and even windows7 now also operate in this fashion (show very little 'free' memory). there is no performance problem with low free memory, purely a misconception on modern memory managment. Whats going on is that you have a buggy application, which is why 'killing' apps looks to be resolving your issue. You're only resolving the symptom, not the problem.
I never kill apps and have had weeks of uptime without any slow down. This gets rehashed over and over again by people claiming task killers help performance. The reality is they do nothing for performance, only nice to have around for that great once and a while an app runs away from you, or in troubleshooting if you have a poorly written app. It should not be anyones habit to do a kill all on a regular basis, if it were the OS would do this automatically.
btw, compcache has been known to cause this slowdown over time issue, it has since been removed from most of the popular custom baked rom's.

frandavid100 said:
I don't get it. Isn't Android supposed to kill unused apps when it's running out of RAM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it does...
bofslime said:
10-20mb free is normal operation. This is how the OS is designed to operate, linux and even windows7 now also operate in this fashion (show very little 'free' memory). there is no performance problem with low free memory, purely a misconception on modern memory managment. Whats going on is that you have a buggy application, which is why 'killing' apps looks to be resolving your issue. You're only resolving the symptom, not the problem.
I never kill apps and have had weeks of uptime without any slow down. This gets rehashed over and over again by people claiming task killers help performance. The reality is they do nothing for performance, only nice to have around for that great once and a while an app runs away from you, or in troubleshooting if you have a poorly written app. It should not be anyones habit to do a kill all on a regular basis, if it were the OS would do this automatically.
btw, compcache has been known to cause this slowdown over time issue, it has since been removed from most of the popular custom baked rom's.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well then there must be many buggy applications. I had to rely on Advanced Task Manager to keep my G1 running acceptably fast. The N1 slows down without its full RAM available so I needed to use Advanced Task Manager then too.
If the RAM is not the issue, why does having the extra 200 MB available make the phone run much smoother with 20+ apps running?

frandavid100 said:
I don't get it. Isn't Android supposed to kill unused apps when it's running out of RAM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well technically no, it reallocates what is being used and frees up memory for programs currently running but non the less the OS manages itself
personally i close apps that i do not have going with the task manager. i seem to notice a performance difference if i do it manually, it takes 2-3 extra taps for peace of mind rather than relying on the OS to figure it out for me...

Deathwish238 said:
The issue is RAM. The kernel that shipped with the Nexus One doesn't support the full 512MB of RAM. However, CyanogenMod 5.0-beta4 does and the difference in speed is amazing. With 26 apps running I have 167MB free atm.
But like stickerbob said, you should have Advanced Task Manager at the least.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The speed benefits of CM's ROM isn't due to the HIGHMEM supporting kernel, but rather other tweeks he's done with his build. Extra ram is nice, but there is certainly no limitation with the 213 or so userspace memory that is available now. Android itself does not even use this memory, it has its own reserved memory space, userspace memory is only for applications to be loaded in. And there is speed for keeping as much of your applications loaded in memory as possible.
swetland said:
Roughly 220MB is available to userspace in the shipping build (ERD79).
Quite a lot of memory is dedicated to the radio firmware (41MB), dsp firmware (32MB), display surfaces (32MB), gpu (3MB), camera (8MB), a/v buffers (41MB), and dsp buffers. Much of this needs to be set aside for these specific tasks due to hardware requirements of very large physically contiguous buffers which can be difficult or impossible to obtain after boot once the physical memory space gets fragmented.
The big limitation though is that the Linux kernel needs to do a 1:1 physical:virtual map of general purpose memory used by the kernel and userspace (which excludes the special purpose stuff described above). This eats into the available kernel virtual address space, which is also needed for cross process shared memory used by the binder, etc. Run out of virtual memory and things get unhappy.
In 2.6.32, HIGHMEM support for ARM will allow us to avoid this requirement for a 1:1 mapping which will allow us to increase memory available to userspace without running the system out of virtual memory adddress space.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

The speed difference I'm talking about is what I experienced when running CM beta3 and CM beta3 w/ highmem. The difference was huge. I assumed the change was mainly attributed to the double RAM available.
Even now with the full RAM available, things run faster when I end the other apps running. It's not necessary, but the difference is there.
It would be nice to be able to pinpoint which apps caused slow downs.

The best way I've seen this put I found in a thread where someone wanted to disable apps from auto-starting entirely. I saved it, because I though it was very elegant way to explain androids mem management.
equid0x said:
I just wanted to chime in here about the whole apps on startup thing....
Android has the concept of services which are programs that typically have a frontend piece, like a GUI for IM that you would normally use, that only runs when you are using it, and a background piece, the service, which is constantly running to keep you connected to your IM servers. This will account for some portion of the things you see running on startup, depending on how many apps you have installed, and whether or not they were written to run as a service.
There are also some, usually older, android programs that existed before "services" were really used.. that basically use triggers to keep reloading themselves. These programs are less efficient, and probably should be re-written to use the official service method of operation, caveat emptor.
Android also makes several modifications to the stock process handling that comes with any Linux kernel, which is already radically different from what most would be used to seeing on Windows as it is. Android attempts to keep commonly used applications running(loaded into memory), but in a sleeping state (using no cpu), so that they may be quickly resumed on request. Android also contains some agressive modifications to the behavior of the OOM(out of memory) task killer in Linux, that seem to cause it to keep applications running until nearly all memory is consumed, killing apps it deems unnecessary only when absolutely necessary. However, Android also supports a methodology of saving the running state of a program, so that if it is killed due to an OOM condition, it may be restarted with relevant data restored, to give the appearance of never having been killed at all.
This functionality is not all to alien to Linux as a platform in general, though Android has many modifications which tend to favor aggressive app management in memory, and less so filesystem cache. This was likely a design choice made to suit the low-speed/low memory platforms Android targets.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Good read.
So then given that...only services running should slow down the phone and not the background apps running.
However, this doesn't really answer the OP's question. If it's not a memory issue...what's causing his slowdowns?

Could be too many widgets on the home screen, I don't run that many but its possible that while in an app for a while, and switching back to home the OS may have to kill a whole bunch of apps to allow it to reload all the widgets on the home screen.
I tested this, and loaded the crap out of my home screens with widgets, and then launched a game. When I exited the game there was a good 500ms - 800ms delay in my homescreens from displaying anything other than the background. However, after it loaded, scrolling between screens looks smooth. The new kernel with highmem support can help this, but I would suspect some crazy widget filled homescreen with a 3rd party live wallpaper (star's configured with too many stars) and all of that combined could be an issue even still. Apple combats this by allowing only one app at a time, they know people will go overboard if allowed.

Well, that doesn't really explain the performance drops. Does the phone run out of RAM, or not? It seems to be snappy again after a reboot, so there must be something.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's probably no easy answer to this question. There could be IO contention, a runaway process, high CPU usage, a memory leak, shoddy code in some app, etc etc... One would really have to take a look at the whole state of the system at the time the problem is happening to be able to ascertain what is causing the slowdown.
The phenomenon is in no way unique to Android. I'm sure nearly everyone is familiar with the common complaint "my computer is running slow". The reasons that can happen on a common PC are the very same reasons that can be happening here, and unfortunately there are many of those reasons. While in many cases, throwing memory at the issue may appear to solve the problem temporarily, it often is not a permanent fix.
The amount of userspace memory available really amounts to 1 thing and 1 thing only -> the total number of running processes that we can keep totally in memory at any given time. On stock android, slowdown due to an OOM condition should be minimal, since stock android doesn't swap. Discounting any other bottlenecks, there is a practical limit to the number of programs once would be able to run in the memory space that is available. Realistically speaking, android programs tend to be fairly small, so you'd really have to be running a lot of them to exhaust this space. It is far more likely one or 2 poorly written programs are hogging huge amounts of memory (and probably other resources), which is causing constant killing and restarting of other apps you are trying to run concurrently. You end up with contention on the slow flash, resulting in poor performance.
You can't even really compare the Nexus One to the G1 in this regard, because the G1 truly is terribly deprived of memory. Though, the argument in both cases could really be made that you are attempting to run the hardware beyond its design specifications...
Its been my experience that the culprit is usually one or 2 specific programs. Sometimes the best, although inconvenient, way to figure out which programs these are, is to keep watch of your usage habits, and if you suspect something is the problem, uninstall it, and see if the issue persists. Its time consuming but there really isn't any better way to figure it out without using all kinds of tools that android doesn't really provide convenient access to. There are a few apps on the market that help with this but I am not sure what they are called offhand.
Programs that were identified as sources of slowdown for me have been:
Weatherbug
The Weather Channel
Calorie Counter
Locale
SMS Popup
10000
USA Today
National Geographic Wallpapers
CNN News Widget
Streamfurious
Nav4All
Waze
Just about every app with Admob Ads
And this is really just what I can think off offhand... there are more...

equid0x said:
There's probably no easy answer to this question. There could be IO contention, a runaway process, high CPU usage, a memory leak, shoddy code in some app, etc etc... One would really have to take a look at the whole state of the system at the time the problem is happening to be able to ascertain what is causing the slowdown.
The phenomenon is in no way unique to Android. I'm sure nearly everyone is familiar with the common complaint "my computer is running slow". The reasons that can happen on a common PC are the very same reasons that can be happening here, and unfortunately there are many of those reasons. While in many cases, throwing memory at the issue may appear to solve the problem temporarily, it often is not a permanent fix.
The amount of userspace memory available really amounts to 1 thing and 1 thing only -> the total number of running processes that we can keep totally in memory at any given time. On stock android, slowdown due to an OOM condition should be minimal, since stock android doesn't swap. Discounting any other bottlenecks, there is a practical limit to the number of programs once would be able to run in the memory space that is available. Realistically speaking, android programs tend to be fairly small, so you'd really have to be running a lot of them to exhaust this space. It is far more likely one or 2 poorly written programs are hogging huge amounts of memory (and probably other resources), which is causing constant killing and restarting of other apps you are trying to run concurrently. You end up with contention on the slow flash, resulting in poor performance.
You can't even really compare the Nexus One to the G1 in this regard, because the G1 truly is terribly deprived of memory. Though, the argument in both cases could really be made that you are attempting to run the hardware beyond its design specifications...
Its been my experience that the culprit is usually one or 2 specific programs. Sometimes the best, although inconvenient, way to figure out which programs these are, is to keep watch of your usage habits, and if you suspect something is the problem, uninstall it, and see if the issue persists. Its time consuming but there really isn't any better way to figure it out without using all kinds of tools that android doesn't really provide convenient access to. There are a few apps on the market that help with this but I am not sure what they are called offhand.
Programs that were identified as sources of slowdown for me have been:
Weatherbug
The Weather Channel
Calorie Counter
Locale
SMS Popup
10000
USA Today
National Geographic Wallpapers
CNN News Widget
Streamfurious
Nav4All
Waze
Just about every app with Admob Ads
And this is really just what I can think off offhand... there are more...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm banking on it being an issue with an app that the OP has installed as well...not the phone or Android. I have only a handful of tried and true apps, and haven't experienced a slowdown even after 150 hours without a reboot.
OP... start uninstalling apps a couple at a time and wait several hours in between to narrow down the problem app.

I can't speak for the OP, but when I was having that problem I had 5 widgets running on my home screen. The Google Search, Sports Tap, Power Control, Calendar, and The Small Weather Channel. Does this seem like too much? I hope not.

stickerbob said:
I can't speak for the OP, but when I was having that problem I had 5 widgets running on my home screen. The Google Search, Sports Tap, Power Control, Calendar, and The Small Weather Channel. Does this seem like too much? I hope not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not just widgets that you should be thinking about... any app you've installed can throw something off.

stickerbob said:
I can't speak for the OP, but when I was having that problem I had 5 widgets running on my home screen. The Google Search, Sports Tap, Power Control, Calendar, and The Small Weather Channel. Does this seem like too much? I hope not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I removed the weather & news widget and the phone seems much faster now. I'll keep it like that for a day, see if it stays fast.

Alarm woes with CM 5.0

Since no one replied to this message in the official CM 5.0 thread. I have decided to create a new thread and hope to find a solution to this problem.
My alarm clock would stop working randomly ever since I flashed to CM 5.0, from Beta 4 to 5..2, the problem persists. If i set an alarm that is about one hour from now, it would go off. But the real alarm I need which is supposed to go off at 8 am in the morning never goes off. Anyone had similar problems? I read Cyanogen's warning about the alarm clock problem. But seems he's just trying to remind you to reset your alarm after flashing to CM. Unluckily, I've reset my alarm numerous times and it never goes off in the morning.
Anyone can give me a hand? Thanks in advance! Overall, CM is a great ROM which gives me the option to use open vpn, which is vital for me since I'm living in China behind the GFW.

Are you by chance using any taskillers?

I do use a task-killer program. But I always keep the clock app on while i'm sleeping to try to make sure the alarm goes off on time. But it never does in the morning.

Don't use task killers on the N1, there really is no need.

cyanogen said:
Don't use task killers on the N1, there really is no need.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't say that's accurate... The phone does slow down noticeably when you have 20-30+ things open
Sometimes a lot of them are running as well (using TasKiller, a lot of Yellow, including Camera, Gmail etc even when not in use and no emails being downloaded). This probably affects battery life as well.

Paul22000 said:
I wouldn't say that's accurate... The phone does slow down noticeably when you have 20-30+ things open
Sometimes a lot of them are running as well (using TasKiller, a lot of Yellow, including Camera, Gmail etc even when not in use and no emails being downloaded). This probably affects battery life as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you have any evidence to back this up? Yes this was a problem on older devices because many things would be fighting over the tiny amount of RAM.
You'll see lots of processes running but that's just the way Android works. Since it doesn't really benefit from simple caching like a normal linux system would, it just keeps everything running and kills unused stuff when memory is low. Most of the things you see running are either paused and using no CPU, or are services that would be periodically launched anyway.
http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/fundamentals.html#lcycles
Keeping these processes alive should actually be saving you battery rather than using it. It's more expensive to launch and restore the state of an application or service after being killed than it is to simply resume one that's been paused.

cyanogen said:
Do you have any evidence to back this up? Yes this was a problem on older devices because many things would be fighting over the tiny amount of RAM.
You'll see lots of processes running but that's just the way Android works. Since it doesn't really benefit from simple caching like a normal linux system would, it just keeps everything running and kills unused stuff when memory is low. Most of the things you see running are either paused and using no CPU, or are services that would be periodically launched anyway.
http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/fundamentals.html#lcycles
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. The phone gets slow when TasKiller shows 30 things in it. I click close all, and it's faster. Do you know my personal experiences more than I do?

Paul22000 said:
Yes. The phone gets slow when TasKiller shows 30 things in it. I click close all, and it's faster. Do you know my personal experiences more than I do?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think there is likely one or two specific misbehaving applications that are giving you trouble, rather than the way the system works as a whole, thats all.

I think what Cyanogen is saying is that android does not handle running processes the way other os's do They have a lifecycle that is non-obvious to someone just looking at a process list. If you insist on killing tasks outside of the activity/service lifecycle they you _will_ get service failures (like the alarm clock) its up to you what you value more.

I have not installed any sort of task manager (outside what's in astro but I don't use it) and never see any noticeable slow down.

Anyway - back on topic.
Yes I have the same issue, never had it before.
Since flashine 5.0.2 my alarm doesn't work in the morning.

The linux kernel keeps a buffer cache of recently used files in RAM. So whenever an application wants to access something on the flash, instead of going to the flash file system, it can just get it from the file buffer cache in RAM, a significant speed increase.
If the RAM is currently being taken up by unused android apps, then that leaves less room for the buffer cache, so in theory, by killing off unused android apps more quickly, that will allow the linux kernel to allocate more space for the buffer cache and thus speeding up the system.
Am I way off here?
Dave
cyanogen said:
Do you have any evidence to back this up? Yes this was a problem on older devices because many things would be fighting over the tiny amount of RAM.
You'll see lots of processes running but that's just the way Android works. Since it doesn't really benefit from simple caching like a normal linux system would, it just keeps everything running and kills unused stuff when memory is low. Most of the things you see running are either paused and using no CPU, or are services that would be periodically launched anyway.
http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/fundamentals.html#lcycles
Keeping these processes alive should actually be saving you battery rather than using it. It's more expensive to launch and restore the state of an application or service after being killed than it is to simply resume one that's been paused.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I would have to agree with Cyanogen on this one. When I first got my N1, I looked towards task killers to help alleviate slowdown, but in the end, I think it's just the placebo effect in a way; you did something to try to solve the problem, and so therefore you perceive a difference.
In other words, task killers aren't needed on this beast of a phone. As for battery life (if that's an issue), look into SetCpu.

Thanks for the reply Cyanogen. I think not using task-killer, or at least not killing the clock app got my alarm working this morning. But I use task-killer not for the purpose of saving ram, but for using less data. Some programs such as facebook or a twitter client would try to connect to the internet every once in a while. I'm on a low data limit plan in China. So I don't want those programs to eat up all my data. When I'm on wifi at home, I don't worry about that. Thanks again.

Same problem. Don't use taskkillers, flashed last CM last night and didn't wake up on time this morning - alarm didn't work, thought I checked that clock icon was on place on notification bar

amwayorlando said:
But I use task-killer not for the purpose of saving ram, but for using less data. Some programs such as facebook or a twitter client would try to connect to the internet every once in a while. I'm on a low data limit plan in China. So I don't want those programs to eat up all my data.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you thought about using something like APNDroid or Toggle Data, to just switch off the cell data when you don't want to use it?

Or, Modify the behavior of the applications you don't want using data?
I have my facebook and twitter for example set to manual update only (for battery saving purposes) because there's nothing there that is critical important info, and I don't need to be notified.
Nice thread though, I'm pretty sure I try to keep people informed that task-killers aren't needed and cause issues, everywhere where it comes up. I find humor that people will still argue, even with a developer, this fact. I've had 150+ hours uptime with no slowdown (and 30 apps running) on the stock rom (without highmem support).

bofslime said:
Or, Modify the behavior of the applications you don't want using data?
I have my facebook and twitter for example set to manual update only (for battery saving purposes) because there's nothing there that is critical important info, and I don't need to be notified.
Nice thread though, I'm pretty sure I try to keep people informed that task-killers aren't needed and cause issues, everywhere where it comes up. I find humor that people will still argue, even with a developer, this fact. I've had 150+ hours uptime with no slowdown (and 30 apps running) on the stock rom (without highmem support).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then please inform us of a thread that can verify what you all are saying. Not in an argumentative tone, my linpack score drastically improves after 16 hours of uptime, and a task-killer.
Rom:CM 5.0.2 -OC Kernel

wesbalmer said:
Then please inform us of a thread that can verify what you all are saying. Not in an argumentative tone, my linpack score drastically improves after 16 hours of uptime, and a task-killer.
Rom:CM 5.0.2 -OC Kernel
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This has basically been discussed into the ground. In my eye's, its a fight vs what I like to call "Windows XP mentality", and that there was benefit on phones like the G1. With the copious amounts of memory on the N1 and droid, they cause way more harm, and immeasurable good (if any).
Summary thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=627836
I've linked to quotes from others.
Threads/posts of interest: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=5494890#post5494890
And: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=5298630#post5298630

Well, this discussion is very interesting, but lets return to our problem with non-working alarm.

[Q] Lack of RAM - any solutions? HTC DZ

I'm getting quite annoyed at my phone's lack of RAM.
I browse the internet and constantly open new windows (up to the max 4 allowed by the HTC browser, but that's another story) so that I can quickly go back a page when I need to.
If for some reason I go and use a couple of other apps on the phone, and then come back to the browser I constantly find that the oldest 3 pages have dropped completely out of RAM, and the 4th one has as well, and that last one alone loads up again.
This is annoying, time-consuming and messes up my browsing session. Is there some way I can prioritise the browser so that most other apps get killed off before it does?

setspeed said:
I'm getting quite annoyed at my phone's lack of RAM.
I browse the internet and constantly open new windows (up to the max 4 allowed by the HTC browser, but that's another story) so that I can quickly go back a page when I need to.
If for some reason I go and use a couple of other apps on the phone, and then come back to the browser I constantly find that the oldest 3 pages have dropped completely out of RAM, and the 4th one has as well, and that last one alone loads up again.
This is annoying, time-consuming and messes up my browsing session. Is there some way I can prioritise the browser so that most other apps get killed off before it does?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try using firefox instead on the defualt browser .its not perfect yet but its getting
better and better with every beta release .

I don't think an alternate browser will help with Android unwantedly killing off processes.
Incidentally, I tried Firefox a couple of months ago and found it to be completely unusable - I take it it's worth checking out again now then?

Another possibility is to set the Android memory manager to be less aggressive in removing things from memory (you can use an app like AutoKiller to change the settings easily---try tweaking the settings to see if helps with your usage model).
I know AutoKiller will also allow you to lower the oom value for the process (the lower the oom, the less likely the memory manager will kill it in the background), but I don't think this will help for the browser (since the OS will dynamically change its oom each time you bring it to the foreground and send it to the background again). If someone knows a way to make the oom value permanently lower, that sounds like exactly what you want.
Maybe someone else has some ideas. I know often times launchers will have the option to keep themselves in memory, and CM6 has the option to keep messaging in memory (more like your situation), so it should be doable.

setspeed said:
I don't think an alternate browser will help with Android unwantedly killing off processes.
Incidentally, I tried Firefox a couple of months ago and found it to be completely unusable - I take it it's worth checking out again now then?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
defo ,its much better now i figured since you were annoyed by 4 tab limit
you might find firefox helpful. because it doesnt have limit or if it does its more than 4 for sure also it has an aption called (your tabs from last time) which again i think
you will find it usefull ,you can also sync it with you pcs firefox too .
EDIT: I just tried it to make sure, even if you reboot your phone
and open firefox again you can just press on (your tabs from last time)
and it will restore them all.

The way I see it there are a few things you can do...
Firstly, you could try a renice script. It does what other people have suggested and changes the oomph value to what you like. It was commonly used on the g1 for the dialer so that you wouldn't miss phone calls lol. Its easy to do if you know the syntax, I would make you one myself if I was near a computer lol.
Another thing you could do is try an aosp/CM based rom, as those generally have much, much lower ram usage compared to sense.
Lastly you could try a different browser. There are so many to choose from I'm sure one will fit your needs.
Sent from my HTC Vision using XDA App

I use autokiller on my DZ, you have to have root to use this tho... quite satisfied about it, almost all the time 90+ free ram even when doing heavy stuff... quits the unused shizzle...
cheers

I HIGHLY recommend Dolphin Browser HD.
It is significantly faster than the stock Browser and I have had no issues with Android closing it down. One feature I like is that there is actually an 'Exit' button in the menu for those individuals who have OCD like me and don't like the Browser running in the background when not wanted.
Thus far, this is the best mobile Browser I have used. That being said, I have not tried Firefox and have been a regular user of Opera Mini in the past on other devices.

You should try miren browser once, i'm using it now instead of dolphin hd, and there is a exit button in the menu to. I think its better styled, it has got all the features of dolphin HD without all the bloating around... no gestures tho
cheers

I think its more of poorly optimized software because im pretty sure that google devs don't even utilize the full 512mb of RAM in 2.2. Chances are its the HTC sense limiting you.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App

Yeah I don't think this issue is anything to do with a lack of RAM.

I may try another ROM, however I'm just not up for flashing all the time like I used to with my old Desire or G1 before that. I want a 100% working ROM, preferably something that allows overclocking with a kernel that doesn't break stuff.
And I also want my HTC phone dialler/contacts as well, not vanilla or a cheap copy from the Market. Oh, and I hate the vanilla lockscreen - it's just hard to operate compared to the Sense one. I don't know why it's so hard to unlock side to side on Android - the iPhone takes a little flick and it's unlocked - vanilla Android is like a mission to ensure I've dragged it far enough across to unlock.
And I don't want my keyboard or capacitive keys or quick keys mullered up (I am running a Euro DZ).
If these issues can be dealt with easily when setting up the ROM/phone then I'm prepared to devote a little time to doing it.
So - any suggestions, please?

dont use htc sense roms.

I'm running the virtuous sense rom with his advanced kernel, ive ran the normal rom about 2 weeks, and ive yet to see differences other then a huuuuuuuge speed increase... i would just try it once if i were you its such a relieve...

I played with the latest over the weekend. I ended up uninstalling it. I'd hit a page with scripting and then firefox would lock up and crash.
Web2Go isn't perfect, but at least it doesn't crash as often.

This has nothing to do with RAM. This phone handles RAM just fine. Use Miren and thank me later. It's the best browser by far!

mr.boonet said:
You should try miren browser once, i'm using it now instead of dolphin hd, and there is a exit button in the menu to. I think its better styled, it has got all the features of dolphin HD without all the bloating around... no gestures tho
cheers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No text reflow = showstopper.
Unless I'm just being blind, I can't find any way to enable this in the settings for Miren.

It's sense. Sense roms use way more RAM than vanilla roms do. Also check out dolphin HD or dolphin mini browser.

Another issue I'm having which points to lack of RAM (whether this is due to Sense sucking it all up or not) is that programs do not stay in in RAM for that long, ie I go away from an app then return after using a few other apps (not massive games or anything) and when I return the first app's UI has been kicked out of memory and has to load up again, causing anything between a momentary (dialler, mesaging) to an annoyingly long (browser, maps, market) white screen, as data is downloaded again.
People talk a lot of sh*t about the iPhone, but cacheing (caching? sp?) a copy of the last screen for each app before it's closed so you instantly get a visual image of the UI of the app following the opening animation is a pretty good idea IMO.
Has anyone here used the Desire HD? I would think with the 768MB of RAM on that badboy this would be less of a problem.

setspeed said:
Another issue I'm having which points to lack of RAM (whether this is due to Sense sucking it all up or not) is that programs do not stay in in RAM for that long, ie I go away from an app then return after using a few other apps (not massive games or anything) and when I return the first app's UI has been kicked out of memory and has to load up again, causing anything between a momentary (dialler, mesaging) to an annoyingly long (browser, maps, market) white screen, as data is downloaded again.
People talk a lot of sh*t about the iPhone, but cacheing (caching? sp?) a copy of the last screen for each app before it's closed so you instantly get a visual image of the UI of the app following the opening animation is a pretty good idea IMO.
Has anyone here used the Desire HD? I would think with the 768MB of RAM on that badboy this would be less of a problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've now installed Enomther's Official rom - what a difference to the speed of the phone! It absolutely flies, even when clocked at a lower CPU speed, and it appears to retain stuff in memory a lot better than the standard Sense rom. Also, there's over 100MB more of free RAM afte a fresh boot.
I'm definitely sold on the efficiency of stock Android, but I'm now missing some of my HTC goodies... I don't think anyone can deny that the HTC dialler is a different level to the rudimentary Android one. And I am missing my HTC browser - that seems a bit smoother, and the text reflow is more reliable, the stock browser seems a bit temperamental on that front.
Other than that, I can live without all the other Sense stuff. So my next question is, can the dialler and browser be installed on my new rom? Do they have any dependencies which would prevent me using them? How would I go about ripping the apps from the HTC rom? I'm an ADB noob so I need some kind expert to tell me how

Little ram saving trick for RamHog™ apps. Maybe it'll help. :)

On a phone that only has three gigs of RAM, (I got the 16 GB version, sue me) I knew there would be a little bit of tweaking involved.
Both chrome and Firefox, are highly functional, with social network sites like twitter, and facebook.
I realized my applications, were eating up nearly a gigabyte of RAM.
My simple tweak is this.
I deleted Facebook messenger, the Facebook app itself, and the twitter apps
I used chrome to go to Facebook, and sign in, and then saved it as a desktop button. (setting are the three dots, top right, selected "add to home screen")
One click and I'm back in Facebook. No app needed, and no RAM suck
Did the same thing with Twitter, and when I was done, I had nearly a gigabyte of free RAM on the phone, and the phone was seriously faster.
Hope it helps someone. I know there are people who get used to the UI of the apps, over the desktop sites, especially on mobile devices, but I barely noticed it.
It is basically using one app (your browser) instead of several apps. with previous versions of android, I got mixed results with this, but it seems to work really smoothly now
Thanks!

papamalo said:
On a phone that only has three gigs of RAM, (I got the 16 GB version, sue me) I knew there would be a little bit of tweaking involved.
Both chrome and Firefox, are highly functional, with social network sites like twitter, and facebook.
I realized my applications, were eating up nearly a gigabyte of RAM.
My simple tweak is this.
I deleted Facebook messenger, the Facebook app itself, and the twitter apps
I used chrome to go to Facebook, and sign in, and then saved it as a desktop button. (setting are the three dots, top right, selected "add to home screen")
One click and I'm back in Facebook. No app needed, and no RAM suck
Did the same thing with Twitter, and when I was done, I had nearly a gigabyte of free RAM on the phone, and the phone was seriously faster.
Hope it helps someone. I know there are people who get used to the UI of the apps, over the desktop sites, especially on mobile devices, but I barely noticed it.
It is basically using one app (your browser) instead of several apps. with previous versions of android, I got mixed results with this, but it seems to work really smoothly now
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do the same thing with anything that I can do using chrome, I don't get the app. Kind of pointless really. S you also noticed it frees up RAM, and on a side note without those apps running in the background constantly, it should save a little juice too!
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

I used to do that, but I found that being able to share something to FB using the picker menu was more important. I don't use twitter, so that's a non-issue for me, and messenger doesn't seem to take up a lot of ram on my device?
Besides, with Android and other modern systems, unused ram is wasted ram.
Not saying that your experience isn't valid. I'm sure that it is. But for me, I'd rather have the functionality than obsessing over a few dropped frames while swiping through my homescreens.

'Besides, with Android and other modern systems, unused ram is wasted ram. "
True...

Well, I used to use a bunch of apps, now I don't, the phone is faster, and has less clutter.
Can you explain the "unused ram is wasted ram"?
You are saying that maxing out the RAM capability of an android device will not affect speed or performance?
Thanks!

papamalo said:
Well, I used to use a bunch of apps, now I don't, the phone is faster, and has less clutter.
Can you explain the "unused ram is wasted ram"?
You are saying that maxing out the RAM capability of an android device will not affect speed or performance?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a constant misnomer thrown out whenever someone raises the android ram issue.
Essentially whilst it's partially true having lots of ram not being used is wasteful - having your memory constantly full or used up will result in degraded performance and many more app refreshes and less apps stored in memory. Just look at the Galaxy S6/Edge for an example.
There has to be a point where you have enough ram to run all your core applications and enough extra 'free ram' to enable other apps to be loaded and shuffled without causing excessive and aggressive refreshes.
So this 'free ram is wasted ram' is a misnomer based on a partial truth but ignoring important factors that mandate in order to maintain optimum performance you do need free ram to allow new apps and existing apps wiggle room to work / operate.
Sent from my XT1572 using Tapatalk

That is kind of what I thought. I figured a little balance was good. Basically of the 3GB RAM I try within reason to keep 1 GB free.
it made a noticeable difference in speed, and load times in general.
I wish there were clear guidelines by number, on app load, RAM limitations, and optimal settings to use the most stuff at the quickest speed.
Anyway, thank all for responding. I learn more every day.
P

Delete Facebook and Twitter apps? I don't see those anywhere on my XT1575.
Always shun the app and use browser instead if you can. The apps hog resources even when they appear "closed", surreptitiously slurp your private data*, and clog your network bandwidth (using your limited data on cell connection) sending your data to the mothership and serving obnoxious ads - all of which also uses more power too.
There is no such thing as a free app.
* Also look at the recent news about a slew of "free" apps hiding Chinese malware that REALLY utilizes your private data and bandwidth.

The idea behind effective usage of RAM is that apps' core functions are loaded and/or remain in RAM when not running an app. This is supposed to prevent the processor from working as much. Some open RAM is still good to have for those times in which an app or what not is not already loaded. Otherwise the system has to dump some of the RAM usage to make room so to speak. I am over simplifying the process but the take away understanding is the same. You want the system to utilize the RAM effectively by having the most used apps preloaded and stored even when not in use. You also want some free RAM for when it is necessary. Some apps you do have to watch out for though as they consistently take up large chunks of RAM (Facebook was one of those in past experiences).

Poor RAM management

I'm finding the RAM management on the S8+ and probably therefore the S8 to be heavily throttled.
My device memory is split as:
4GB total:
System and apps: 2.8GB
Available: 600MB
Reserved: 639MB
The problem I am seeing is that I am never seeing memory consumption above 2.8GB so that the last 600MB is never touched whatever I open. This aggressive throttling is evident If switch between a mere 5 or 6 open apps, the first ones opened have been closed and have to completely re-open and re-load even though there is a is about a 600MB chunk of memory sitting around so this last 600MB is being totally wasted. This is validated when I go to the built in memory manager within Device maintenance and it only shows the last 3-4 apps opened as being active. Believe Samsung needs to adapt the memory management to be less aggressive here as it is impacting on multitasking quite severely.

Right now I have system and apps using 2.4gb., Available space 1gb, reserved 639mb.
I find that if you back out of an app by pressing back, it closes and you have to reload, such as facebook, messages, phone, gmail etc.
I find that if I use the home button to back out of apps they remain in memory. Apps like facebook have to resync when I go in but are still in memory.
What apps are you using to have them close on you?
Exynos or Snapdragon? Mine is UK Exynos maybe there is a difference.

I'm multitasking, so using the app switch button. I'm not backing out which closes apps. Processor is nothing to do with apps closing and I have Exynos. In my experiments I'm using the web browser, whatsapp, email, music player, maps and samsung health.

Hasn't it been like that for ages, Jonathan-H?

i can understand the op's point, especially if multitasking is needed, but the behavior described is actually a good thing for a phone. otherwise you can have too many apps eating up memory that you don't want. the phone doesn't know the user intends on multitasking back and forth. there was a time when there were pages of complaints about apps staying on after user moved on from it, so this is specifically something they would have designed for. there's no right answer here short of a full adaptable ai of some kind.

Unfortunately even Pixel is bad with RAM Management. Till now only Oneplus 3 and Xiaomi Mi5s Plus with 6 GB of RAM keep many apps in memory. I had an iPhone 7 Plus before S8 Plus and all the apps were in the same state like when I left them even after one day. So till now iOS is the fastest OS for me because it keeps apps in memory. Even Youtube stayed in Memory and on S8 Plus it reloads after one hour. I guess it's about keeping battery under control on S8 Plus and this is the reason. On the other hand, the first time launch of apps is faster on S8 Plus compared to iPhone. If somehow Android can keep apps in memory and also control the battery consumption, it can be perfect.

standard101 said:
i can understand the op's point, especially if multitasking is needed, but the behavior described is actually a good thing for a phone. otherwise you can have too many apps eating up memory that you don't want. the phone doesn't know the user intends on multitasking back and forth. there was a time when there were pages of complaints about apps staying on after user moved on from it, so this is specifically something they would have designed for. there's no right answer here short of a full adaptable ai of some kind.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you never get to use the RAM you paid for then it is not a good thing. It's poor RAM management. We're not talking about it closing down apps once the RAM is even close to the limit, we're talking about it closing apps withing minutes and long before the last 20% of RAM is used up which is a sizeable chunk. And having RAM empty is old school thought which is now accepted to be bad practice and was just a benchmark used to see that your system was not being stressed. These days it's better to have as much in RAM as possible rather than waste it empty and have the system need to reload things.

standard101 said:
i can understand the op's point, especially if multitasking is needed, but the behavior described is actually a good thing for a phone. otherwise you can have too many apps eating up memory that you don't want. the phone doesn't know the user intends on multitasking back and forth. there was a time when there were pages of complaints about apps staying on after user moved on from it, so this is specifically something they would have designed for. there's no right answer here short of a full adaptable ai of some kind.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For serious multitaskers like me, it leads to the opposite problem: apps keep getting reloaded from scratch and that ruins battery life even more.

I'd like to add my voice into this. I am also a heavy multitasker. I have a set of standard 6-8 apps that constantly keep getting kicked out of memory and closed out of the carousel. It is not a RAM limitation issue as I am, like the OP, always below the limit. It just seems that Samsung made the memory management much too aggressive. I already set all possible options in the OS to control what is monitored and suspended and such, but this made no difference.

Same for me. At first reading this I though I posted this because of the exact numbers.

Jonathan-H said:
. Apps like facebook have to resync when I go in but are still in memory.
What apps are you using to have them close on you?
Exynos or Snapdragon? Mine is UK Exynos maybe there is a difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it is 'forced' to refresh the displayed content it is not keeping it in memory.
You need to use a device where the issue is not exhibited to see how memory management should work.
Sadly my S8 Exynos can not keep more than half a dozen apps fully in the background without then forcing the content to reload/refresh when going back into those apps, from Facebook, YouTube, Photos, Gallery, newsstand, Play Music.
dhorgas said:
I'd like to add my voice into this. I am also a heavy multitasker. I have a set of standard 6-8 apps that constantly keep getting kicked out of memory and closed out of the carousel. It is not a RAM limitation issue as I am, like the OP, always below the limit. It just seems that Samsung made the memory management much too aggressive. I already set all possible options in the OS to control what is monitored and suspended and such, but this made no difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly my issue and I have done likewise to no avail unfortunately.
Sent from my S8 using Tapatalk

The last update of the Gallery from Play Store made it start almost instantly. Maybe they need to put all the stock apps in Play Store so they start fast. About the difference between App refresh and App reload, it's totally different thing. We all agree with refresh and we don't like reload.

Android Doze
The problem is Android Doze, which freezes every app once it's in the background. Solution is simple: Settings -> Device Maintenance-> Battery -> Battery usage -> Optimize menu -> All apps. Untick the ones you need and, probably, they will remain in memory for while. So far, working for me.

so no solution to this thus far?? any root tweaks or build prop tweaks useful to solve this??? or we still have a dump phone