Database Users

I am trying to grasp a concept...

Okay, I'm assuming you all bought your hero's for what it was capable of when you bought it, seeing as there were no confirmed updates from HTC and even Google scheduled yet, so why does the majority get annoyed when their phone misses out on the latest 2.2 update? It still has all the features you bought it for. Any update at all is a positive, no update is neutral since your phone didn't lose anything, it just didn't gain anything either. Besides the fact that our Hero's already have basic flash support and are ahead of most devices in functionality just because it was ahead of its time when it got released?

I am somewhere in the middle: somewhat content with my Android 1.5 Hero and somewhat annoyed at the lack of updates. I think the trouble all comes down to convergence. Let me toss a couple thoughts your way. Generally speaking, in the recent past people have:
1) Paid full price for a computer (laptop, desktop, etc) and then promptly go out at get what ever Internet service provider they want (cable DSL) etc. The computer works on any network.
2) Paid a reduced price for mobile phones for the trade off of signing a contract and being tied to a particular provider. In many cases, only certain phones are available on certain networks. This is the complete opposite of the computer case in #1
3) Expected that their computer will be upgradeable (for a fee) over the years, at least until the hardware becomes obsolete. I know I've had XP, Vista, and Windows 7 on the same machine.
4) Expected that if they wanted new features on a phone, they would need to get a new phone.
Now the phones and computers are, too some extent, converging into one device. If I use my Android phone to check email, twitter, facebook, etc and never make voice calls - is it really a phone? No, it is just another Internet connected device for which my expectations are typically that I can upgrade the device until the hardware becomes obsolete. I didn't necessarily say that should be free, but it should be possible.
Another aspect that people expect of their computers, is that they can load virtually any application designed for that OS. Even today, most applications (if not all?) written for Windows 7 still run on XP. With Android, the applications seem to have been tied to the OS. For example, with my 1.5 phone I still can't use Google Voice search or Google Goggles? Why? My phone has a camera and a microphone, but for some reason you need to have 1.6 for them. Same for the free Google Navigation. You need to have a later version - just to run an application.
Again, I am somewhere in the middle. I have been VERY pleased with my HTC Hero. At the same time, I sure would like Google Voice search, Navigation, multiple gmail accounts, etc. I might even be willing to pay to update it (much like Apple makes people pay for iPod Touch updates). But shelling out $600 for a new phone (I buy unlocked - which is much cheaper for me in the long run) for those features does not seem worth it.
The lesson learned might be to always by the Google phone (i.e. Nexus One or whatever comes next). Google are responsible for pushing out those updates and it seems to happen fast!

I bouth my Hero after I saw the HTC tweet that they are working on the 2.1.
Update from 2.1 to 2.2 is a natural function of Android - it's OTA friendly. If a manufacturer declares Android, it declares everything what goes with it. If they don't want to spend time on such minor updates as 2.2, they should declare that as well: Android without updates. And they have not. So people are angry for not getting what they expect. And the expectatons are absolutely reasonable. That's why I will NOT buy any other HTC device. I learned that they dont't treat us, customers, fairly. They are going to do the same exact thing with the Desire as well. Not going down that path again.

I personally haven't heard one person moaning about not getting 2.2.
But people are expecting 2.1 due to no updates being given on the OS since the handset was released. Hero users were promised a long time ago that we would be getting 2.1 due to 1.6 being skipped, whereas other, lower spec models had that update.

You don't know what functionality will be added two updates later, so not having them is neutral, no one is oblidged to update their products and they can be discontinued whenever they wish. Does it matter? No, you got the phone based on the features it had when you bought it, the phone doesn't all of a sudden get worse because it didn't get an update.
I for one will purchase another HTC device when I'm done with my hero, simply because they deliver the best product with the best feature set regarding android, if updates are slow oh well, I buy phones for what they are capable of at the time of purchase since I can't look into the future, and neither can you.

So - all you set out to do with your original post was anger people and not take into account other peoples point of view? I took some time to provide some rational arguments.
Dont you expect to get updates for your computer? Graphics Drivers? Network Drivers? Operating Systems? Surely you don't just by a new computer everytime you need that functionality. You expect either the OS Vendor or the computer manufacturer to provide updates - both to create new features and fix bugs.

Bug fixes yes, but as they said those will be provided, and no I don't expect additional features, sure I'll be happy with new features but I didn't expect them. Even though phones are getting closer and closer to being computers they aren't.

How are they different?

seshmaru said:
Okay, I'm assuming you all bought your hero's for what it was capable of when you bought it, seeing as there were no confirmed updates from HTC and even Google scheduled yet, so why does the majority get annoyed when their phone misses out on the latest 2.2 update? It still has all the features you bought it for. Any update at all is a positive, no update is neutral since your phone didn't lose anything, it just didn't gain anything either. Besides the fact that our Hero's already have basic flash support and are ahead of most devices in functionality just because it was ahead of its time when it got released?
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I was happy with it when I got it, it was after all the flagship HTC device of 2009. But then about a month later 1.6 came out, and HTC said they were working on an upgrade to 1.6. This was delayed, then 2.0 came out and HTC suggested they would upgrade to 2.0 instead. The same happened with 2.1. But you are correct that they never really announced any upgrades officially, it was just announced on there twitter stream. Which is half the problem really. They kept suggesting that they were working on an upgrade, but kept pushing it back. Had they just done the 1.6 upgrade and then stopped, I don't think half as many people would be annoyed.
What HTC did wrong here was to give inconsistent information, along with delays and then kept junking what they had done and telling people they were working on something better. As a result, people kept hanging on, and being told that if they just waited a little longer then they would get an upgrade. If HTC had just come clean and updated us with offical announcements, or had stuck with 1.6 and been honest about a lack of improvement, then people wouldn't still be waiting.
Also, if you look at the iPhone model, they may charge for upgrades but the original 2G iPhone has only just gone out of support. Given that the Hero was the 2009 flagship Android device, and was still being sold way into 2010, its a little hard to stomach the idea that its out of support so quickly.
tl;dr HTC kept pissing us around and making us wait just a little longer, when it could have just said "not going to happen, here is 1.6, sorry" and this is annoying.

Are we buying a piece of hardware which is only going to be bug fixed, or are we buying hardware which is going to be updated for a certain amount of time even after they're no longer selling it?
In my opinion we're not just buying hardware, we're buying a software package behind it. That software needs to be updated, otherwise some major killer feature in a slightly newer version isn't possible for you to get - such as Google navigation, can turn a 6 month old phone which has the hardware capability into a device which is so frustrating.
I expect my device to last around 2 years, various networks offer contracts on these devices for 2 years, I think it's fair to expect updates to smart phones for that duration. I wouldn't expect every feature to be supported (eg. no live wallpaper if the device can't handle it), but it should be updated so it's possible to run the latest apps on it.
The phone manufacturers need to be honest on how long they plan to support these things, because it is becoming an issue. People feel abandoned if they pay hundreds of pounds on a device and never get an update, whilst other users pay the same amount and get multiple updates. If HTC doesn't want to release updates then that's fine - I'll just consider it before buying the device.

clobber said:
I am somewhere in the middle: somewhat content with my Android 1.5 Hero and somewhat annoyed at the lack of updates. I think the trouble all comes down to convergence [snip].
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Nice argument. I hadn't thought about the convergence issue. You might well have hit the nail on the head.

I see your point, but if you had gotten any other non android smartphone besides the iPhone you wouldn't be getting significant feature set updates either.

But some people bought the hero because HTC said they were working on 2.1 months ago, others bought it because it was advertised "Android" and assumed you'd get Android updates. Others bought it because it's a good phone, but to the first two groups of people, the promise of new features was a reason for buying.
People are annoyed because HTC won't provide an update they've said they're working on (2.1), which seems to be a marketing interference to get as many people to buy a new device, rather than keep using their all one.
Also annoying is that we're stymied from having a generic OS made with drivers for all sorts of mobile hardware, but that's more of a philosophical annoyance.

I'm ticked off at the lack of update, not because I think I deserve an update per se, but more because I think I deserve all the features to work properly on my phone, and they don't.
And it's not like I could have tried it before I bought it either...
I've been an HTC user since 2003 and have always promoted the brand, but I don't think I'll get another one after this.

[Q] Tethering?

Any word on tethering for the DVP?
If it's looking like it's not going to be possible I want to order the Omnia before VAT goes up.
Thanks in advance,
cfp

Not a matter of if its possible (I am sure it is..) It's how to do it.. I havent gotten past finding a diagnostic screen and the deafining silence on my posts tells me no one else has either. YET..

So you'd be very surprised if tethering wasn't available in a few months?

Tethering was SUPPOSED to be a major feature of WP7.. but the carriers gave MS a huge pushback on that, as they had different plans on getting more money out of thier customers for tethering. So it was removed, on one phone (I believe the Samsung) they have found the "Work around".
I have seen on some videos and boards the things HTC wanted to do to the OS but was stopped from doing by MS in regards to customizations. So again there has to be ways to do some of this.
So I firmly believe its in the OS buried somewhere. At worst we have to registry hack to get to it.
The Devs here are amazing.. and its only a matter of time until they crack the OS and come up with ways to customize the tiles, tether, custom ringtones (that has already been done through Chevron), and the like.
The real question is are the Devs going to have to fight through the OS every step of the way or is MS or HTC (Or someone inside) going to "leak" some of the needed elements that will help attain those goals.
If they can crack iOS WP7 should be crackable too.

Would love to see something like htc's Windows 6.5 "Wi Fi Router" on Windows Phone 7 phones.

cdgoin said:
Tethering was SUPPOSED to be a major feature of WP7.. but the carriers gave MS a huge pushback on that, as they had different plans on getting more money out of thier customers for tethering. So it was removed, on one phone (I believe the Samsung) they have found the "Work around".
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Where are you getting this information from? There has never been any mention of tethering being part of WP7, not in the test builds, tech preview and obviously not in the final release. And where is the "pushback" from carriers? In fact if you read here http://wmpoweruser.com/telstra-thinks-windows-phone-7-is-very-competitive-wants-tethering/ the carrier rep actually says they DO want tethering in WP7.
There is NO evidence that tethering was present at all and then removed for any reason, and the simple fact is that its just not there and we have no idea how it will be implemented when and if it actually is officially added to WP7.

In a number of sources.. http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/23/windows-phone-7-has-tethering-support-up-to-carriers-whether-to/ its in the OS but disabled.
Lastly there was even a notice early on that like WM6 it would be intragal to the OS, and that MS was going to make carrier not charge for it and it would be free. Fpr the life of me can not find those articles.. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist.. but... I KNOW I read them... )
As we all know the Samsung can do it if you do a few hacks and jump through a few hoops. So its obviously there.
I was even told TODAY by T-mobile customer rep its a $15 option.. didnt say how it would work though. REALLY thinking of paying for the $15 option and seing how they do it. Good thing the old WM6.5 can tether without any blockage.

efjay said:
Where are you getting this information from? There has never been any mention of tethering being part of WP7, not in the test builds, tech preview and obviously not in the final release. And where is the "pushback" from carriers? In fact if you read here http://wmpoweruser.com/telstra-thinks-windows-phone-7-is-very-competitive-wants-tethering/ the carrier rep actually says they DO want tethering in WP7.
There is NO evidence that tethering was present at all and then removed for any reason, and the simple fact is that its just not there and we have no idea how it will be implemented when and if it actually is officially added to WP7.
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I'm agreeing with you...I've never seen this in any spec or announcment. I do know that tethering is in the OS, but its a setting that is preset to off by the OEM. It's exposed by accident in the Samsung....and I'm sure others have it. I've always been under the belief that tethering will be exposed, once the appropriate data plans are available. I think of tethering like I think of luggage on an airlines....if you pay, you can bring all the bags you want....No pay, no bags....

[Q] [DEBATE] Why is MS issuing the activation codes?

Hi,
I would like to start discussion, what do you thing, why is the MS still issuing tha activation codes for WP7. Nobody here could think, that in MS are so stupid, that they did not noticed, that there is successful port of WP7 to HD2 and that they are now issuing the activation keys to those phones.
I am thinking about those possible reasons:
they do not want to piss regular customers, who could have this problem with the activation
they want to have higher marketshare, so they are just overlooking the issue
they will shut all those WP7 and live ids in next update, so they do not care right now
What do you think guys?

I think option 1.

would go for option 1.
only marketshare that would go up is web browser marketshare... they do not sell more phones this way.
what could be a fourth option is that microsoft actually uses the XDA community to test every security system in their OS for loopholes and bugs in an early stage so they can fix all that (without having to look for the problems theirselves) and make sure people are unable to hack their OS when the OS goes into a more complete and final form as the OS is now only in 7.0 and not even released globally.
still option 1 is more likely. they possibly do not have a database with all s/n or imei numbers for all (sold) wp7 phones so they are unable to check.

aenedor said:
I think option 1.
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Click to collapse
Its Option 1. I remember reading on their support site that on some cases that the verification fails (the did not mention the possible reasons) on any windows phone out of the box.

homer.web said:
...
they do not want to piss regular customers, who could have this problem with the activation
they want to have higher marketshare, so they are just overlooking the issue
they will shut all those WP7 and live ids in next update, so they do not care right now
What do you think guys?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Definitely #1. When I called technical support, it seemed like the woman I talked with had done this before and she knew exactly what I was talking about. She asked if I was using WP7 and when I said yes, she even said "Oh, well that's why you need an activation code." I think I read somewhere that even if you're using a WP7 device, doing a hard reset on the phone would cause you to need a new activation code, so it's not out of the ordinary for them to receive calls about it I suppose.
#3 is something I'm a bit worried about in the back of my mind, but the thing is my phone identifies itself as an HD7, so I'm not sure if MS would be able to tell it wasn't. I also don't think it's worth their time and money to look into the issue since in the bigger picture, the amount of users who haven't bought an "offical" WP7 device is relatively small I would think. Another thing is they're now getting money from me, since while I have absolutely no interest in buying a new WP7 device, I'm now buying apps/games and will probably buy some music through Zune (really digging the software).

I don’t think there is a downside for MS at the moment. From what I understand, the HD2 is one of the few (last gen) phones capable of running WP7 and the more people that use WP7 the sooner that apps that are popular for other OS's will be created for WP. More money for MS but more importantly, quicker adoption by the general public because the marketplace will quickly catch up with Apple and Droid.
From my limited use of WP7, it’s a great addition. Different thinking in its design but a distinct lack of business and productivity tools in the marketplace is going to hold me back from a using this as my daily OS.

Not a bad thought
I say #1 for sure, though i fear #3 to be honest ;-)

I am highly impressed with Windows Phone 7, and Microsoft may have realized that someone like me may make a WP7 device their next phone purchase.

1 and 2, please not 3.

It's obviously 1 as there have been several actual WP7 handsets needing activation also - that said, there is nothing stopping them from killing all the HD2 codes at any given time. The IMEI still identifies the phone as a HD2 rather than an HD7 so whenever they feel the need...
They could also go as far as banning your Live account from any future access to Zune and Xbox Live due to this - both the one used on your phone and the one you [may have] given them during your phonecall.

I was thinking #2, but i'm reading more and more people now not getting codes. therefore i guess it's #1.
will be very interesting to see what happens when the update comes along. ?will you dare to try it? will marketplace and apps stop working even if you don't install it?

Why should MS actually have a problem with 5 to 10 000 enthusiats that are flashing WP7 on their HD2's? I don't think that will affect sales of new WP7 phones as the HD2 is not produced anymore anyway.

ill take number 3 for 500.00 Alex kidding
I truly believe MS is going to lock us out from Live services similar to the same issue the xbox 360 with a custom FW have,they do a massive band of xbox 360 systems from xbox live service a couple of times a year.
Although we are not pirating any games such in the case of xbox 360 flashed with custom firmware (and yes some people are going to say some use their flashed xbox 360 to backup their games I truly don't care, save it for your mama) just modifying our phones but it seems to me as one way for them to screw us over.

1 & 2 & - I fear - even 3

homer.web said:
Hi,
I would like to start discussion, what do you thing, why is the MS still issuing tha activation codes for WP7. Nobody here could think, that in MS are so stupid, that they did not noticed, that there is successful port of WP7 to HD2 and that they are now issuing the activation keys to those phones.
I am thinking about those possible reasons:
they do not want to piss regular customers, who could have this problem with the activation
they want to have higher marketshare, so they are just overlooking the issue
they will shut all those WP7 and live ids in next update, so they do not care right now
What do you think guys?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You do know that Microsoft and HTC along with the rest of them actually read everything posted on these XDA forms.
Why did HTC stop giving out sd cards when everybody started saying there cards were faulty!
Think about it!!!!!!
Russ

Don't be too paranoic. A few years ago Microsoft politely asked XDA not to allow the posting of custom ROM's on it's servers. NOTE: They didn't ask for discontinuation of ROM development, although they could do this legally. They just asked that the ROM's are not hosted on XDA. MS knows this site very well since Day 1.
Same goes for HTC. You look at it in another way: XDA is a perfect testing field for all sorts of things. Here you have a bunch of relatively competent enthusiasts that are ready to do almost everything to theis phones That's a very valuable resource for companies like MS and HTC.
Think about HTC. Their phones are always hackable unlike the phones from other brands. Have asked yourself why this is the case?

TheOnly1 said:
Don't be too paranoic. A few years ago Microsoft politely asked XDA not to allow the posting of custom ROM's on it's servers. NOTE: They didn't ask for discontinuation of ROM development, although they could do this legally. They just asked that the ROM's are not hosted on XDA. MS knows this site very well since Day 1.
Same goes for HTC. You look at it in another way: XDA is a perfect testing field for all sorts of things. Here you have a bunch of relatively competent enthusiasts that are ready to do almost everything to theis phones That's a very valuable resource for companies like MS and HTC.
Think about HTC. Their phones are always hackable unlike the phones from other brands. Have asked yourself why this is the case?
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That is correct. You have hit the nail on the head. HTC & Microsoft like what the XDA Devs do with these ROMs, as it will enhance them to produce better ones. Just think back a few months, they were going to release the wp7 update for the HD2. And then not? Why.. Probably to see if the Devs could do a hack. Also why would microsoft make some tools available to enhance these ROMs. Yes you are correct, they like what's being accomplished.
Its the same with the activation keys, they now have none stop requests!! But they will issue them. Will have to wait and see if the new update works, or crashes it?? I will give it a try.
Russ

A 'carphone warehouse' insider has informed me that they recieved a bulliten stating that some batches of HTC phones were shipped prior to being activated by MS.
MS apparently have a list of new activation numbers for these handsets but may not have a record of any IMEI numbers etc (he wasn't sure how much they knew about the handsets)
Basically it seems that authentication will also fail on some original HTC WP7 handsets (like the HD7) so MS are prepared to issue those with new activation numbers.
Personally, when I gave my IMEI for my HD2 to get the activation code I changed the last 3 digits and they still said 'ah..yes it's a HTC phone, is that correct?', so might be a good idea to base a made up IMEI on a real one.

The way I see it:
This community and the readers are the one who have spent their time to make their phone compatible with Microsoft so they can use MICROSOFT more. They are saving Microsoft marketing money and expanding its share and generate revenue through apps for them.
Microsoft has always been smart with this. They let the piracy of Windows in ASIA to slit through on basis of expansion of market share. Microsoft should know better than anybody else, why most of the planet use windows,
Microsoft has got the label of M$ but in all fairness, they have been nice considering the power and their dominance. They have special discounts for students, their OS provides the opportunity for people to build any system they want at very very affordable costs.
Their Windows Mobile 7 app development kit virtually has made it simple for app developers to develop apps and make money.
(obviously, they win but at the same time, reduces the production budget for start up folks)
I bought 4 copies of Windows 7 PRO x64 through student discount. Who else would give me so much discount to enable me to buy so many fantastic products?
sorry for the rant and fanboyism. I thought it was justified.

ever thought that maybe they don't know about the hd2 running wp7, my friend had to contact ms for activation for his hd7...

[UPDATE] - Windows Phone 7 update on February 7

I hope e this is try, and can run in our beautifful HD2.
...because i can't leave without Copy\Past feature in a smarthone SO....until that, i'm on Android scene.
http://www.winrumors.com/rumor-windows-phone-7-update-on-february-7/
Windows Phone 7 update on February 7
54 minutes ago...
Microsoft may be gearing up to release its first Windows Phone 7 update on February 7 according to reports.
LiveSide has tracked a number of French sites that suggest Microsoft will release its first Windows Phone 7 update on February 7. There’s no proof that the date is accurate and the timing is odd given that Microsoft chief Steve Ballmer will be in Barcelona on February 14 for the Mobile World Congress. Whether or not the date is accurate, WinRumors can confirm that Microsoft has Released to Manufacturing (RTM) its first update codenamed “NoDo”.
Microsoft’s first update will improve application start-up and resume times and introduce the important copy and paste feature. Microsoft posted a support article earlier this week that details the update process for Windows Phone 7 devices. The support article has led many to believe that the update is due imminently.
Microsoft revealed earlier this week that it has now shipped 2 million devices to carriers. Microsoft previously revealed that the company had shipped 1.5 million Windows Phone 7 units between the October launch and December. Research firm IDC and application platform Appcelerator recently surveyed over 2,000 developersto work out their intent for 2011. Developer interest for Windows Phone 7 rose 8 points to 36% ‘very interested’ according to the results. IDC says the interest was “due to a better-than-expected launch.” Survey respondents also said that “Windows Phone’s improved UI was a critical factor for the increase.”
Microsoft also revealed there are now 24,000 registered Windows Phone developers and over 6,500 applications in the marketplace. Microsoft’s customer satisfaction rates on Windows Phone handsets are at 93% according to the company. Microsoft is believed to be planning to unveil a second bigger update in February at the Mobile World Congress show in Barcelona, Spain. Microsoft’s second update will introduce enhanced developer controls for applications and updated Silverlight components.
Joe Belfiore, who oversees Windows Phone Program Management, and is responsible for the design and software product definition of forthcoming generations of Windows phones will keynote MIX11 this year. Belfiore is expected to layout a roadmap for the future of Windows Phone 7 and detail Microsoft’s second Windows Phone 7 update. Microsoft is also working on a major overhaul of the Windows Phone 7 browser. In a job posting, listed in November, the software maker promises a “major overhaul of standard support and new approaches to make significant advances in performance, power consumption and bandwidth utilization.” Microsoft may be ready to detail its future Internet Explorer mobile plans at MIX in April too. Microsoft is believed to be planning Flash and HTML5 support for Windows Phone 7.
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Lets wait, and see if Microsoft wants ot not, more embassatores for WP7s.....

From what i'm reading it seems to me that microsoft won't block htc hd2 phones, they want developers to go to windows phone 7, they want ratings to go up.
So to me is they won't block access for htc hd2's.

After the update...
Microsoft, does NOT want hackers and independent developers modifying their OS. The HTC HD2 will be excluded from the update. If Microsoft wanted this and other devices like it on the new OS, they would lighten up on their restrictions. After all THEY are the ones that control it.
The WP7 update will close the bug that allows the Chevron tool to work. Our only hope is that someone will hack the update to work. It's going to be much harder this time, as MS had some help and insight from the Chevron guys! Time will tell us for sure.

I actually don't understand how Microsoft could exclude the HD2 from the update, given the current architecture. Their own Marketplace servers think the HD2 is an HD7... if they could detect the difference, they would have blocked us already.
We know that Microsoft has designed the WP7 to have complete and total seperation between the OEM and carrier's device-specific modules on the one hand, and the vanilla OS on the other. Microsoft's updates are exclusively for the latter portion of the OS, which is why they can push out a single update package to all unlocked devices *directly*.
In short, my money is on the first update working just fine for the HD2, breaking very little in the process. It isn't a question of what Microsoft secretly wants. This is about HTC building the HD7 out of almost all the same hardware as the HD2, and any small differences were easily patched up by DFT.
I might add that since Microsoft has triumphantly announced that NoDo will break ChevronWP7, wouldn't you expect them to also announce that they had closed an HD2 loophole?

benjaminries said:
I actually don't understand how Microsoft could exclude the HD2 from the update, given the current architecture. Their own Marketplace servers think the HD2 is an HD7... if they could detect the difference, they would have blocked us already.
We know that Microsoft has designed the WP7 to have complete and total seperation between the OEM and carrier's device-specific modules on the one hand, and the vanilla OS on the other. Microsoft's updates are exclusively for the latter portion of the OS, which is why they can push out a single update package to all unlocked devices *directly*.
In short, my money is on the first update working just fine for the HD2, breaking very little in the process. It isn't a question of what Microsoft secretly wants. This is about HTC building the HD7 out of almost all the same hardware as the HD2, and any small differences were easily patched up by DFT.
I might add that since Microsoft has triumphantly announced that NoDo will break ChevronWP7, wouldn't you expect them to also announce that they had closed an HD2 loophole?
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Click to collapse
I appreciate your train of thought, and love the optimism
Is there something like a kudos button here?

neugroove said:
I appreciate your train of thought, and love the optimism
Is there something like a kudos button here?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, But he just said it

MS will surely shut down that bug on their os and no longer hd2 with wp7 ,but for surely they will hack into it , MS answered me that porting WP7 to HD2 WAS NOT ILEIGAL

benjaminries said:
I actually don't understand how Microsoft could exclude the HD2 from the update, given the current architecture. Their own Marketplace servers think the HD2 is an HD7... if they could detect the difference, they would have blocked us already.
We know that Microsoft has designed the WP7 to have complete and total seperation between the OEM and carrier's device-specific modules on the one hand, and the vanilla OS on the other. Microsoft's updates are exclusively for the latter portion of the OS, which is why they can push out a single update package to all unlocked devices *directly*.
In short, my money is on the first update working just fine for the HD2, breaking very little in the process. It isn't a question of what Microsoft secretly wants. This is about HTC building the HD7 out of almost all the same hardware as the HD2, and any small differences were easily patched up by DFT.
I might add that since Microsoft has triumphantly announced that NoDo will break ChevronWP7, wouldn't you expect them to also announce that they had closed an HD2 loophole?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wish I shared your optimism and hope you are correct, but from what I can understand, the update will effectively push out a new ROM having backed up the old one first.
Whatever black magic the DFT guys did to hack the ROM to work on HD2 would surely be undone? I therefore believe we won't get the update unless and until the DFT hack it.
There could be stuff below the ROM level that won't be affected and it could be this stuff that DFT tweaked - not knowing the architecture of WP7 I couldn't comment.
Being a pessimist, it just feels too good to be true that a update would work without any issue - hope I'm wrong though. This could be how MS propose to close the HD2 loophole. It would even work quite well for MS. Having had a taste of WP7, how many of us might go out and buy a WP7 phone having had an extended trial and then being cut off from our dealer...

Gustopher said:
I wish I shared your optimism and hope you are correct, but from what I can understand, the update will effectively push out a new ROM having backed up the old one first.
Whatever black magic the DFT guys did to hack the ROM to work on HD2 would surely be undone? I therefore believe we won't get the update unless and until the DFT hack it.
There could be stuff below the ROM level that won't be affected and it could be this stuff that DFT tweaked - not knowing the architecture of WP7 I couldn't comment.
Being a pessimist, it just feels too good to be true that a update would work without any issue - hope I'm wrong though. This could be how MS propose to close the HD2 loophole. It would even work quite well for MS. Having had a taste of WP7, how many of us might go out and buy a WP7 phone having had an extended trial and then being cut off from our dealer...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah right, I wouldn't buy the same hardware again, I would consider if at least any of the wp7 phones get the Desire HD hardware, but none of them has it. If the update stop us from wp7 then I'll stick with android and wait for the next major hardware upgrade then I will look for another phone.

Voluntary update?
My understanding is that the update will not mandatory.
You can choose to update you system or not. So our HD27's will still work once the update is released - we just wont have the new features or be able to run apps that use the new featrues.
I thinks the chances of the update working are fair to good. From what I have gathered the biggest problem the DFT team had was getting magldr and the WP7 OS to play well together from NAND.
I may be wrong - but I like the "glass half full approach".....

I don't think you could update the hd2 , and if I was DFT I had prevented it from updating to (just to be sure that there are after a update no 14000 bricks)

i wouldn't be surprised if the HD2 could flawelessly get the update. Since it is an MS update, none of the hardware specific software/drivers will be affected. Otherwise, MS has to push updates for specific devices and that is not what they are planning to do. But who'll know? I am sure to be the first to try that out and if I will brick my device, than so be it. I don't think the HD2 can be bricked beyond repairing. With all the great tutorials, first aid guides here on XDA, I think it is safe to try it.

benjaminries said:
I actually don't understand how Microsoft could exclude the HD2 from the update, given the current architecture. Their own Marketplace servers think the HD2 is an HD7... if they could detect the difference, they would have blocked us already.
We know that Microsoft has designed the WP7 to have complete and total seperation between the OEM and carrier's device-specific modules on the one hand, and the vanilla OS on the other. Microsoft's updates are exclusively for the latter portion of the OS, which is why they can push out a single update package to all unlocked devices *directly*.
In short, my money is on the first update working just fine for the HD2, breaking very little in the process. It isn't a question of what Microsoft secretly wants. This is about HTC building the HD7 out of almost all the same hardware as the HD2, and any small differences were easily patched up by DFT.
I might add that since Microsoft has triumphantly announced that NoDo will break ChevronWP7, wouldn't you expect them to also announce that they had closed an HD2 loophole?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They can detect it from IMEI, first 8 digits state the manufacturer and model. There are DBs on the net to verify IMEI against phone maker and model. e.g. imei-number.com/tac-list

MerLinh said:
Yeah right, I wouldn't buy the same hardware again, I would consider if at least any of the wp7 phones get the Desire HD hardware, but none of them has it. If the update stop us from wp7 then I'll stick with android and wait for the next major hardware upgrade then I will look for another phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair point. Until DFT WP7 I was at a loss though; WM6.5.5 is dying through lack of new stuff, I didn't fancy WP7 and having had a play with Android it just irritates me - I know it can be changed but the default colour scheme and design looks like it was done by a class of 7 year olds with a box of crayons (NB: my opinion, apologies Android-lovers).
So at least I know now that I could go out and buy a WP7 device, but you are quite correct that the launch phones are a disappointing bunch, with nothing one whit better than my HD2.
I have a hunch that something sexy must be coming as WP7 slowly gathers momentum, so I'll hang onto my money for now.
What to do if the update breaks the HD2(7) though...
(Accepting that it may well be optional and might well not break it even then)

hyellow said:
i wouldn't be surprised if the HD2 could flawelessly get the update. Since it is an MS update, none of the hardware specific software/drivers will be affected. Otherwise, MS has to push updates for specific devices and that is not what they are planning to do. But who'll know? I am sure to be the first to try that out and if I will brick my device, than so be it. I don't think the HD2 can be bricked beyond repairing. With all the great tutorials, first aid guides here on XDA, I think it is safe to try it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Huh, I wouldn´t count on that. I can definitely imagine the updater could be able to detect the phone you are using (many of us showing "HD7") and upload specific drivers, too - the original WP7 devices did receive some updates already. To make the updates user friendly, they maybe include those brand/operator specific files and drivers, who knows. And replacing the DFT/Leo70 driver material with original HD7 versions might maybe brick the system...
galatei said:
They can detect it from IMEI, first 8 digits state the manufacturer and model. There are DBs on the net to verify IMEI against phone maker and model. e.g. imei-number.com/tac-list
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now that seems to be a bit far stretched... but who knows... modern times, no?
At least, it would kind of confirm my thoughts above...

It could be that we may get the update and install it OTA,but in absence of any immediate DFT or Chevron Development efforts we could very well get stuck with WP7 on our HD2s !!!.

I'm pretty sure we won't be able to update our phones successfully with MS's update... we'll probably have to wait until DFT releases an update to flash manually. But unless DFT pre-hacks the registry to make it show up as a HD7, we will have problems doing anything with it until a new way to unlock it is discovered. We'll have to wait and see what happens, but we will probably be stuck without updates for a while I think.

the only update i am looking forward to is massively improved battery life, this has to be from DFT.

haksam said:
the only update i am looking forward to is massively improved battery life, this has to be from DFT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? How can you live without Copy \ Past feature? I use WP7s for 3 days, and was very annoying without that feature.
And I miss, only copy /past but too, more share options and multitasking.... I like very much the UI, but I need quickly this features added.
Sent by my HD2 Gingerbread device

benjaminries said:
I actually don't understand how Microsoft could exclude the HD2 from the update, given the current architecture. Their own Marketplace servers think the HD2 is an HD7... if they could detect the difference, they would have blocked us already.
We know that Microsoft has designed the WP7 to have complete and total seperation between the OEM and carrier's device-specific modules on the one hand, and the vanilla OS on the other. Microsoft's updates are exclusively for the latter portion of the OS, which is why they can push out a single update package to all unlocked devices *directly*.
In short, my money is on the first update working just fine for the HD2, breaking very little in the process. It isn't a question of what Microsoft secretly wants. This is about HTC building the HD7 out of almost all the same hardware as the HD2, and any small differences were easily patched up by DFT.
I might add that since Microsoft has triumphantly announced that NoDo will break ChevronWP7, wouldn't you expect them to also announce that they had closed an HD2 loophole?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
actually, think about it, there is one single blindingly obvious difference thats so easy to detect they could get a 10 year old to locate them.
How many buttons do you have on your HD2? i wouldnt be sure there was no way of knowing. even if we take that out you'll still have some kind of unique signature on the cracked OS that we have all used, it would be near on impossible to hide the fact its an HD2 and not an HD7 if they really wanted to find out.

Why is the Samsung ecosystem such garbage?!?!

Mini-rant
OK, so I have to rant (just briefly) about the whole state of Samsung phones at the moment. Basically, we spend gobs of money on expensive devices and get locked down pre-loaded junk in return. Oh, they are physically impressive, have good specs, and are aesthetically nice gadgets. But would you spend $1600 bucks on a new laptop that came with software you couldn’t remove and could only be upgraded for the next 4 years?!?!
I have wanted to experiment with LineageOS for years. I bought a used Samsung S8+ in 2018 and quickly found out that LineageOS was a no go because Samsung locks the bootloaders on all US and Canadian models. So, that was never going to happen unless some guru found a hack.
Now, five years later, I went out of my way to find a Global/European S10+ (an SM-G975F) specifically so that I could install LineageOS. Now, I managed to do that easily enough. But now I am stuck with a phone that has poor reception and slow LTE speeds because it is missing LTE bands used in Canada (i.e. the SM-G975F uses different bands than the SM-G975W).
So here we are… making tradeoffs again.
And while I like fiddling with things like this, I have to wonder... why are we here in the first place? I just want a phone that doesn’t come preloaded with junk that I don’t want. I don’t want Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, TikTok or even Office 365 pre-installed and non-removable. It is like moving into a new house and finding out that the builder picked out furniture for the living room and, while you can push it off to the side and cover it with a blanket, you can never actually remove it. Why is the builder picking out furniture for me in the first place?
Some will say they like the furniture the builder picked. Most will say they don’t hate it or that they found a way to cover it up sufficiently that they don’t really notice it anymore. That isn’t really the point though, is it?
LineageOS on the other hand comes with nothing that it shouldn’t. Oh, and you can have LineageOS if you like (if you stand on your head and find a way to order a phone from another market) but then you have crummy reception forever. Oh, and when you are done you are a 2nd class citizen who can't use the NFC chip on his/her phone to pay for things because you were a "bad person" who found a way to remove the builder's sofa from your living room.
Oh, there are tricks… download this tool or that… but some don’t work anymore because of update XYZ…
Why can’t I just turn on the LTE bands I need??!?! Like, seriously, why not?!?!
Or better yet, why doesn’t my phone do it for me when it sees the Bell SIM card?!?!
Whose phone is this anyway?!?!
The state of Samsung phones in North America is garbage. Full stop. Pure garbage. No, I am not being too harsh.
1) All phones should come with basic firmware that makes the phone work and nothing else. The phone should not be used as an on-ramp into whichever ecosystem is paying the manufacturer more. OEM apps (i.e. Samung Calculator, Samsung DeX, etc.) are fine but no 3rd party junk like Facebook and Instagram. That is what the store is for.
2) All bootloaders should be unlockable and re-lockable once custom firmware is loaded if that firmware is itself signed. No "tripping Knox" or this nonsense.
3) All radio/LTE/carrier settings should be accessible and customizable with easily selectable presets for major carriers worldwide.
Anything else is a closed ecosystem that doesn't respect your basic property rights.
OK, done ranting... Maybe someone from Samsung will notice and maybe it will make a difference.
Best regards,
The Fish

I run two stock N10+'s, a N975U and a N975U1.
Running on Android 9* and 10 respectively. Neither have had their firmware upgraded. I use Package Disabler to block about 70-80 apks and settings are heavily optimized. Both run fast, stable and fullfill their mission with almost no issues and little maintenance. Excellent SOT and standby time.
Both are compatible with AT&T and as such there are no reception issues. You check and verify this before you purchase. Slam the sim card in and they're good to go. Once optimized and running well, don't upgrade firmware or update apps and it will run fine for years. Don't do the above and you will need to find work arounds... if they exist.
Current load on this N10+ will be 3yo this June. No malware during that time. Still looks, feels and runs like new. Only repair has been a battery. After a steep learning curve I'm very pleased with these devices. They are still a joy to use. However I can't say the same for the proceeding Samsung flagships and will never own one of them for a litany of reasons*.
Samsung phones with/in this SOC/generation can run well in capable hands, stock, if used as described.
*has last Android 9 firmware update
**lol, don't get me started

blackhawk said:
Neither have had their firmware upgraded. I use Package Disabler to block about 70-80 apks and settings are heavily optimized. Both run fast, stable and fullfill their mission with almost no issues and little maintenance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This kind of proves my point. I am not saying there isn't a way to get your Samsung phone running the way you want it. I am saying that the hoops we have to jump through and the tradeoffs we have to make are unacceptable.
Why do you have to use Package Disabler to block about 70-80 apks?!?! Why should you have to block *any* APKs at all?
Why do you have to stick with old, outdated firmware? Why do you have to make this tradeoff? Why do we have to have a hostile relationship with Samsung?
Why can't we have a nice phone, no bloatware, no junk, no apps we don't want. Get updates for a reasonable amount of time (i.e. till the hardware no longer supports it)?
blackhawk said:
Both are compatible with AT&T and as such there are no reception issues. You check and verify this before you purchase. Slam the sim card in and they're good to go.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure. And I knew ahead of time when I purchased the Global S10+ (the SM-G975F) that it didn't support all the same LTE bands as the Canadian model (the SM-G975W). But again, I had to make tradeoffs because I wanted to run LineageOS. Again, why do we have to choose between two crummy options?!?! Where are the good options?!?
I am daring to imagine a world where this is better. Really, we used to have phones locked to service providers and 5-year contracts. Those were the bad old days. But these days right now (with the bloatware, etc.) are also not great. It reminds me of the Windows XP era of PCs where you would buy a new PC and be prompted to sign up for 100 different services upon initial bootup. Only difference then was you could re-install the operating system on your PC and free yourself from the OEM bloatware. But now, with phones, they make even that impossible with locked bootloaders.
Basically, if I could unlock the bootloader of a Canadian SM-G975W that would be ideal. Any why isn't it like that anyway?!?! Isn't that the way it should be to begin with?
Locked bootloaders with no option to unlock should be illegal.
The Fish

thefish123 said:
This kind of proves my point. I am not saying there isn't a way to get your Samsung phone running the way you want it. I am saying that the hoops we have to jump through and the tradeoffs we have to make are unacceptable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm a pragmatist, I use what works.
thefish123 said:
Why do you have to use Package Disabler to block about 70-80 apks?!?! Why should you have to block *any* APKs at all?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's only blocking what I consider bloatware. 10 or 15 of those apks are apps I installed but chose to kept disabled 99% of the time.
thefish123 said:
Why do you have to stick with old, outdated firmware? Why do you have to make this tradeoff? Why do we have to have a hostile relationship with Samsung?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's your choice to upgrade and there's no reason to upgrade if the firmware is fulfilling its mission if you're running Android 9 or higher. If you lack wherewithal you pay a price...
thefish123 said:
Why can't we have a nice phone, no bloatware, no junk, no apps we don't want. Get updates for a reasonable amount of time (i.e. till the hardware no longer supports it)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Updates and upgrades aren't needed on an optimized device that's running well. New phones with the newest firmware are running like crap in case you didn't notice. Very little speed increase in most routine activities and horrible SOT on most.
thefish123 said:
Sure. And I knew ahead of time when I purchased the Global S10+ (the SM-G975F) that it didn't support all the same LTE bands as the Canadian model (the SM-G975W). But again, I had to make tradeoffs because I wanted to run LineageOS. Again, why do we have to choose between two crummy options?!?! Where are the good options?!?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well you knew there be connectivity issues and that should have flagged it. Custom roms have custom problems with a limited user/support base.
thefish123 said:
I am daring to imagine a world where this is better. Really, we used to have phones locked to service providers and 5-year contracts. Those were the bad old days. But these days right now (with the bloatware, etc.) are also not great. It reminds me of the Windows XP era of PCs where you would buy a new PC and be prompted to sign up for 100 different services upon initial bootup. Only difference then was you could re-install the operating system on your PC and free yourself from the OEM bloatware. But now, with phones, they make even that impossible with locked bootloaders.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not that bad if you shop smart. I bought out my AT&T N10+ at 2 years. It's almost identical to my carrier unlocked variant. I want the boot loader locked for security. No way I'm touching the firmware as these are premium flagships that run extremely well as is. I have very little to gain and lots to lose... including time.
thefish123 said:
Basically, if I could unlock the bootloader of a Canadian SM-G975W that would be ideal. Any why isn't it like that anyway?!?! Isn't that the way it should be to begin with?
Locked bootloaders with no option to unlock should be illegal.
The Fish
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You buy Samsung flagships for the premium hardware and then work within the framework that's available and what works best for you. You can root the Exynos variants but their hardware is almost always inferior to the Snaps. Consequences.
At this point both Samsung and Android newest products are so out of line that they are unusable to me. I don't care what they do, screw them. I'm in a holding pattern for 3+ more years happily using my N10+'s... I don't care. All my issues are worked out because I threw time at them to do so and I'm very satisfied with the outcome.
In 3+ years I will reevaluate the situation and decide what to do. Right now as things stand I don't reccomend any new Samsung's or anything Android version above Android 10. Unfortunately I have no easy solutions for you other than what I did. Even that isn't simple fix but it's a zero risk fix. I refuse to risk damaging these N10+'s by mucking with their firmware unless its needed for repair.

blackhawk said:
Well you knew there be connectivity issues and that should have flagged it. Custom roms have custom problems with a limited user/support base.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The reason I purchased this specific model was so that I could run a custom ROM. But the connectivity issues are not caused by the custom rom. They are caused by the fact that I am using a phone designed for a different market where different LTE bands are used.
And yes, I knew that ahead of time. And I am not regretting that. But you are missing the point. The radio in my phone is perfectly capable of using the LTE bands that my carrier uses. So why shouldn't there be a straightforward way to enable them?
What if I used to live in Europe and moved to Canada? Should I be forced to buy a new phone just because Samsung doesn't let me change LTE bands? Or if I travel between Europe and Canada on business then I just have to suffer with crummy reception?
My point is one of ownership, property rights.

thefish123 said:
The reason I purchased this specific model was so that I could run a custom ROM. But the connectivity issues are not caused by the custom rom. They are caused by the fact that I am using a phone designed for a different market where different LTE bands are used.
And yes, I knew that ahead of time. And I am not regretting that. But you are missing the point. The radio in my phone is perfectly capable of using the LTE bands that my carrier uses. So why shouldn't there be a straightforward way to enable them?
What if I used to live in Europe and moved to Canada? Should I be forced to buy a new phone just because Samsung doesn't let me change LTE bands? Or if I travel between Europe and Canada on business then I just have to suffer with crummy reception?
My point is one of ownership, property rights.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Connectivity is paramount. Regardless of what your user rights should be, you need to work within the limits of the options available. The square peg round hole thing...
You may be able to enable those bands and that's probably where you should be directing your energy. I purposely try to avoid having to do that as much as possible and never had to. You dove down the rabbit hole, hopefully it's not too deep. Try looking at the hidden phone user settings first... I guess.

blackhawk said:
Connectivity is paramount. Regardless of what your user rights should be, you need to work within the limits of the options available. The square peg round hole thing...
You may be able to enable those bands and that's probably where you should be directing your energy. I purposely try to avoid having to do that as much as possible and never had to. You dove down the rabbit hole, hopefully it's not too deep. Try looking at the hidden phone user settings first... I guess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I agree. Being a phone is the most important thing that a phone does. And I am directing my energies in that direction as well. But in the process, it occures to me that a messed-up antagonistic anti-customer ecosystem this whole thing is. We would *never* accept this from a computer company, a car manufacturer, or a home builder. Yet, for some reason, we accept it from phone makers like Samsung and that we need to work within these [artificially imposed] limits.
Anyway, yes, there used to be a hidden phone menu (why hidden?) that would have let me enable the bands that I need. But Samsung removed it sometime last year with an update. Again, why?!?!
I'll keep looking. I'm sure I will figure out something in time inspite of Samsung, not because of them.
The Fish

What OS version are you on?
The band selections are probably still there although means of access may have changed.
My knowledge in this area is very limited. The sim card always configured it perfectly for me.
Best to check with your carrier to be sure that phone model is on their white list.
You could try seeing if someone help you from your carrier tech support...sometimes you get lucky if you try enough.

blackhawk said:
What OS version are you on?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am running LineageOS 19.1.
blackhawk said:
The band selections are probably still there although means of access may have changed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The band selection app is categorically *not* there anymore because it A) it was part of the Samsung firmware and B) even if I was on Samsung firmware it wouldn't be there anymore either because Samsung removed it.
There used to be a tool you could download that would allow you to access the "hidden" band selection app. But it stopped working because Samsung removed the hidden app altogeather. Like I said in my original post on this thread "Oh, there are tricks… download this tool or that… but some don’t work anymore because of update XYZ…"
My point is that the whole nonsense of disabled bands and locked bootloaders is infuriating. I is like buying a computer that can only access the internet at full speed in Europe and if you fly to Canada and use it there you get penalized with 1/2 speed. Oh, and even through you could change it with the flip of a switch that switch is buried, disabled, hidden behind locked doors.
The Google Pixel 7 Pro has all the bands turned on (i.e. there is one phone for the whole world) and the boot loader is unlocked. Just saying...
At some point I will probably prevail in getting the bands I need turned on. And then I will likely be very happy with this phone for the next 5+ years. But none of that changes the fact that this anti-consumer predatory behavior on the part of Samsung is unacceptable.
The Fish