Database Users

[Q]play station pocket question!

is there a way to use our "legally backed up" roms with the playstation pocket app? unfortunately it isn't available in my country, but i'd love to play some of my roms on that!
P.S.:best.phone.ever

I dont think it will allow us to play 'backed up roms'. Best bet is to play your legal roms on FPSe or psx4droid (Doesnt work yet on xperia play).

I remember that when the virtual console service for the wii came out you could mod the files by looking in a hex editor where the portion of the wad file (sort of the executable file the wii uses) is that contained the rom and replace it with the hex code of another rom.
Maybe the same will work with playstation games on the xperia play, dump the game, look in a hex editor where pieces are the same as with original crash bandicoot files and replace them with the hex code from another game.
Personally I think improving fpse to work well with the xperia play will prove a better future then hacking what SE made.

yeah, you're probably right.... speaking of which, is FPSE open source? i might as well take a look at it, and mess with the play's APIs....

I don't believe fpse is opensource. PSX4droid recently became opensource though but is not yet working for android.
Here is the source code if you want to play with it: https://github.com/zodttd/libpsx

maybe in the future some dev will "legally" reverse-engineering the app and find a way to play your roms, you have to wait until the phone is global until you can see some cool actions done to it.

peter768 said:
is there a way to use our "legally backed up" roms with the playstation pocket app? unfortunately it isn't available in my country, but i'd love to play some of my roms on that!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's no such thing as "legally backed up roms" as console ROMs do not fall under the "backups allowed" exceptions thanks to the hardware manufacturers.

zerojay said:
There's no such thing as "legally backed up roms" as console ROMs do not fall under the "backups allowed" exceptions thanks to the hardware manufacturers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok, kill me then! jeez, it's not like gba or psone games are actually sold anymore, it won't hurt anyone..... i'm sure sony or nintendo don't even care!!

Speak for your self. Laws are different in every country. In The Netherlands it is legal to make a backup for private use for example. And I actually got tools to do it for my SNES and N64 and DS and software on my wii to do it for gamecube/wii games. Wasn't the psx easely doable with a standard dvd-writer in any pc? Legal back-ups are not a myth just because you don't use them or because you live in a country with (imo) odd laws.

peter768 said:
ok, kill me then! jeez, it's not like gba or psone games are actually sold anymore, it won't hurt anyone..... i'm sure sony or nintendo don't even care!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually the PSone games are available for sale on the PSN network.
I've been purchasing the classic Final Fantasy games and playing them on my PS3. The same games I purchased can also be legally downloaded into my PSP for on the go gaming (up to 5 PSPs).
Too bad those games cannot be transfered to the Play legally.

recce5 said:
Actually the PSone games are available for sale on the PSN network.
I've been purchasing the classic Final Fantasy games and playing them on my PS3. The same games I purchased can also be legally downloaded into my PSP for on the go gaming (up to 5 PSPs).
Too bad those games cannot be transfered to the Play legally.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, and that's a real ****ter.
I purchased many many ps1 games back in the day.
Some of which I have now purchased a second time through psn.
PS certified devices should have a way of signing in to psn to d/l content you have purchased.
Legal or not, if I've purchased a game previously I see no harm in downloading a rom for another device.

If you're rooted, you can use the Market Enabler to change your SIM Numeric to a Number that's in the UK, for example, and with that the Playstation Pocket app will work.

Meister_Li said:
If you're rooted, you can use the Market Enabler to change your SIM Numeric to a Number that's in the UK, for example, and with that the Playstation Pocket app will work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well, actually i have, but it still says that it's not available in my country... it must be tracking my location, from my ip or something..... :/

If you look on the SD card you can easily find the data loaded by the PSX games.
In /sdcard/Android/data/com.sony.playstation.NCUA#####, you'll find the data files for all the PSX games (which correspond to the standard SCUS or SLUS codes for Sony, for example NCUA94358 is Cool Boarders 2, just as SCUS-94358 is).
From there you will find a .zpak file, which is just a ZIP file, within which is a Data folder, within which is an "image.ps" file.
Now I'm no ROM hacker... but from my days watching the PSP scene where they injected PSX files into the native emulator, it was just a matter of stripping the image file out of one rom, and injecting your own. I'm not sure what format this image.ps uses, but I'm hoping somebody with some knowledge in this area will look at what needs to be done to convert a bin or an iso into an "image.ps".
At the end of the day, the native emulator is WAY better than Psx4droid or Fpse, and if Sony isn't going to release the games we want to play (though I'm very willing to pay them for them if they do), then I'd like to figure out how I can play them the way they're meant to be played.

I did!...but i bet the zpak is signed... it can't be this easy... it must be like apks, someone will have to find a way to sign it... but this is just an assumption.. I'll give a couple of paperclips and a subway coupon to whomever figures this out!....

Catch is Sony offerings are and will be less than best. Examples of great games MIA:
1. Raiden Project
2. Tobal 2
3. Tekken 3 (the Golden version)
4. Thrill Kill (sad, but I love it)
5. NFL Blitz 2001
6. NBA Jam Extreme
I could keep adding games. I bought these and a few hundred (sadly) more from launch until a little after the PS2 came out. Even had an extra PS1 (Japan model) so I could play import games.
I would rather gut the software from the Xplay to make room for more user apps and use other emulators (Sony's low 380mb space storage is forcing me into thinking this way).

Hi there,
Not sure if this has already been answered somewhere (I had a quick look) but when is Sony going to be releasing more PS1 games on the Playstation Network for the Xperia play? I want to get this device but not if its going to be badly supported by games.
Cheers

there is actually a not so legit way of obtaining ps1 games from PSN and play on xperia play; all you really need to do is download the ps1 classic from PSN, migrate it to external drive via ps3 (or usb mode on psp), then unpack the pbp file to obtain the iso(s)
i already did this to obtain ff7 and ff9 to play on xperia play via fpse

zerojay said:
There's no such thing as "legally backed up roms" as console ROMs do not fall under the "backups allowed" exceptions thanks to the hardware manufacturers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair use rights allow you to back up mediums, especially when they are fragile or the hardware to play them has become obsolete. Its covered under media shifting, despite what manufacturers want you to believe.

come'on devs!

How can i play PS1 Games?

How can i play PS1 Games?
do i need to root?
r800i

awwwwwwwwwwww

You dont need to be rooted, just buy FPse off the market

Jahy420 said:
awwwwwwwwwwww
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
7 minutes and no response is too long? Yeesh.
Anyways like above. Buy FPSE off of market and supply your own ripped PSX/PS1 CDs (you'll likely need the SubChannel data when you rip it, because copy-protect stuff is there, also, include bad sectors).
Mind you, you need to legally own a copy of the game (I still have my Valkyrie Profile discs and a few others lying around, love those games). FPSE is made through community efforts from original PSX/PS1 emulation code, plus a TON of fricking changes and updates and fixes to make it work on ARM and/or specific CPUs and GPUs on different android platforms. The amount of work they are doing on that thing is a huge undertaking.
Alternatively you can buy stuff from Sony Computer Entertainment off the Android Market. I think they have a few games on the Android Market to buy. Crash Bandicoot, Syphon Filter, WipeOut (good futuristic racing game with great soundtrack, btw), and some others. These all use the native, Sony-Made PlayStation emulation.
Thirdly, there is currently dev work being done to reverse engineer the packages in order to be able to utilize the native Sony-Made emulator to run other self-ripped games. They are 80% of the way there and have it fully disassembled and understand it, but are having problems fitting it all back together with custom stuff. Check the dev section for progress threads.
If you are looking for a way to do it free and possibly get free stuff... not the place here.

ryocoon said:
7 minutes and no response is too long? Yeesh.
Anyways like above. Buy FPSE off of market and supply your own ripped PSX/PS1 CDs (you'll likely need the SubChannel data when you rip it, because copy-protect stuff is there, also, include bad sectors).
Mind you, you need to legally own a copy of the game (I still have my Valkyrie Profile discs and a few others lying around, love those games). FPSE is made through community efforts from original PSX/PS1 emulation code, plus a TON of fricking changes and updates and fixes to make it work on ARM and/or specific CPUs and GPUs on different android platforms. The amount of work they are doing on that thing is a huge undertaking.
Alternatively you can buy stuff from Sony Computer Entertainment off the Android Market. I think they have a few games on the Android Market to buy. Crash Bandicoot, Syphon Filter, WipeOut (good futuristic racing game with great soundtrack, btw), and some others. These all use the native, Sony-Made PlayStation emulation.
Thirdly, there is currently dev work being done to reverse engineer the packages in order to be able to utilize the native Sony-Made emulator to run other self-ripped games. They are 80% of the way there and have it fully disassembled and understand it, but are having problems fitting it all back together with custom stuff. Check the dev section for progress threads.
If you are looking for a way to do it free and possibly get free stuff... not the place here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wish you could buy those games off the Market.
WipeOut, Destruction Derby, Syphon Filter and a few others are available but only outside the US...

One day SCEA will give us some PSX love off the market. I'd be more than willing to buy these games a third time... Until then, we have Yifanlu.

we need a dev with skill to make a program to convert psp games to work on xperiaplay

we need a dev with skill to make a program to convert psp games to work on xperiaplay it can be done n im sure every1 would pay goooood money for this

a) You can't convert PSP games. There is no emulator.
b) PSP doesn't run the same arch as the Play, so they can't be run natively.
c) The source code isn't available, so they can't be recompiled.
d) Making the games available would be piracy.
e) Accepting money for these "converted" PSP games would be even worse.
In other words, buy a PSP or wait for games to be put out on Playstation Suite.

if ps1 games cud be convert b a dev n psp games cud be converted by playstation devs den it can be done thru native emulater ive enuff bwt this just not a clue how to code myself

Sure it could be done (emulation), but your PSP games would likely run at somewhere under 3 frames per second at best. (Of course purely a guess, maybe less than 1 frame/sec.) So who is going to even start to code such a waste of time?
So if you KNOW it can be done, please share how. If you can prove your case I am sure someone would jump all over it. And maybe learn to spell. And use periods and capitalization.

Faith doesn't code.

dont even try 'flame' me i aint sum next ******** 1 of thevgames for xperia play is a psp convert i read it up n i spell rong cos its quicker second ppl that aint dopey can read it it can be done just takes proper skill not just a time buster sum1 wif knowlege n deadcation if gta3 is coming to xperiavplay im sure psp can
MOD EDIT:: Profanity Censored.

I am getting the impression that you are trying to start a **** show.
MOD EDIT:: Profanity Censored.

Only the developers that have the source code can make a port of the game. There's nothing we can do about it.
/thread

Movax2 said:
And maybe learn to spell. And use periods and capitalization.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Heaven forbid you suggest that. The throng of wrongspellers will fall like one man over you.

lyricalchaos said:
we need a dev with skill to make a program to convert psp games to work on xperiaplay it can be done n im sure every1 would pay goooood money for this
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lyricalchaos said:
if ps1 games cud be convert b a dev n psp games cud be converted by playstation devs den it can be done thru native emulater ive enuff bwt this just not a clue how to code myself
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lyricalchaos said:
dont even try 'flame' me i aint sum next dickhead 1 of thevgames for xperia play is a psp convert i read it up n i spell rong cos its quicker second ppl that aint dopey can read it it can be done just takes proper skill not just a time buster sum1 wif knowlege n deadcation if gta3 is coming to xperiavplay im sure psp can
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You make it sound like one of us (and not me because I'm not that good) can spend a weekend in the basement and get PSP games running. That is not the case. The PSP runs on different architecture than the Play, and also the PSOne. The reason PSOne games run on both is because Sony has the source code and many developers that work on this stuff 8 hours a day 5 days a week, and both devices are far higher powered than the original PSOne.
What you fail to realize is that Sony has already said that emulated PSP games (and no none are out yet) will possibly be available for the Play when the Playstation Suite comes out. So why would one of the devs on this site take on the monumental and arguably impossible task of doing this on his/her own, when Sony will be releasing the same thing in a month or two. It would be far easier to reverse engineer it as they've done with PSXperia, instead of trying to build it new.
You post as if you KNOW this can be done, but then you say you don't know how to program. If you don't know how to program you:
a) have no right to demand someone do it
b) have no right to even request it
c) have no right to make some sort of assumption that it can be done.
But if you want to have a dialog with the devs here about it the least you can do is use proper grammar in your posts. My brain hurts trying to read what you typed. What you are doing is selfish, and is definitely not going to help your cause.
My suggestion, be patient and wait for what Sony has in store. and buy yourself a few books on programming and learn it a bit before you go demanding developers to make stuff for you.

Rogue Leader said:
The reason PSOne games run on both is because Sony has the source code and many developers that work on this stuff 8 hours a day 5 days a week, and both devices are far higher powered than the original PSOne.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just a correction here. The reason PSOne games run on both is because Sony wrote an emulator to run the original games on the phone. No one's doing porting of individual games to the Xperia Play.

zerojay said:
Just a correction here. The reason PSOne games run on both is because Sony wrote an emulator to run the original games on the phone. No one's doing porting of individual games to the Xperia Play.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right my point was, Sony has the backend access, the hardware, and the paid dev's (likely more than 1) who do this for a living and have every advantage being that they work for the manufacturer (and maybe even worked on the original device). As opposed to one of us, hacking and reverse engineering code we are completely unfamiliar with.

And PSOne is easier to emulate, due to the huge difference in processing power available on the Xperia Play. Even my Xbox1 can play most PSone games. (Who would have thought you could play PS1 games on a phone back then..people need to appreciate technology more).
I don't know much about the PSP, but I assume it is quite a bit more advanced than a PSOne.. somewhere along the lines of a PS2? Emulation is quite a bit more difficult, if even possible in a practical manner, due to the processing power required. I assume whomever is involved in PSP ports will be doing exactly that - ports, not emulation. They have access to the source code and can alter it where necessary to run on the Xperia Play.

We need a genie that makes all our wishes come true.

Eres un grande

Ok first of all even if an emulator was made
it would run like crap, the Xperia is nowhere near
powerful enough. Not even sony could make an emulator good
enough to run psp games on the Xperia, Its kind of like trying to
emulate PS3 games on a gameboy.
Secondly you cant just convert a game, developers
can port their own games because they own the
source code to their games. Only psp minis have been
ported for the play so far and they are just small multiplatform
games.

Xperia play vs ps1 vs psp vs ps2 vs ps3
Hopefully this works, i'm quoting Androhero off another PSP thread:
AndroHero said:
The xperia play is not fast enough, It could easly play PSP quality games natively, But to emulate the PSP it would have to be 5 - 10x the power of the device and clearly its not
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now, onto specs:
Xperia Play: 1 ghz cpu
PSX: 33mhz cpu (yes, it's that old)
PS2: 300mhz (actually 294-299mhz)
PSP: 333mhz
PS3: 3.2ghz
So, just off of pure processing power, PS2, PSP and PS3 will not be runable on our phone. 2-3 years in the future? Maybe. Now, just from a developer creating one from scratch? Nope.
Sony Ericsson has the ability to make it, 'cause as Rogue Leader says,
Rogue Leader said:
Right my point was, Sony has the backend access, the hardware, and the paid dev's (likely more than 1) who do this for a living and have every advantage being that they work for the manufacturer (and maybe even worked on the original device). As opposed to one of us, hacking and reverse engineering code we are completely unfamiliar with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now, can we stop harassing the developers about PSP emulation? A simple google search (site:forum.xda-developers.com xperia play psp emulation) shows over 2,000 results. We won't have one until Sony Ericsson makes it. Then, maybe, a developer will find a backdoor way to do more games, but until then, please stop asking.

paxChristos said:
Now, onto specs:
Xperia Play: 1 ghz cpu - ARM7
PSX: 33mhz cpu (yes, it's that old) - MIPS R3000A
PS2: 300mhz (actually 294-299mhz) - MIPS R5900
PSP: 333mhz - MIPS R4000
PS3: 3.2ghz - CELL
So, just off of pure processing power, PS2, PSP and PS3 will not be runable on our phone. 2-3 years in the future? Maybe. Now, just from a developer creating one from scratch? Nope.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can't even compare any of those clock speeds because the architecture of each one is different. Clock speed is only relevant when you are looking at chips of the same architecture. Yet another reason that we can't have those games on the Xperia Play unless they are a remake, someone ports with the original source code (not going to happen) or unless an emulator is made.

lyricalchaos said:
dont even try 'flame' me i aint sum next dickhead 1 of thevgames for xperia play is a psp convert i read it up n i spell rong cos its quicker second ppl that aint dopey can read it it can be done just takes proper skill not just a time buster sum1 wif knowlege n deadcation if gta3 is coming to xperiavplay im sure psp can
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you should put down your Xperia Play & Consoles & demand that your parents spend their (or, most likely, the taxpayers) money on some much needed extra tuition.

paxChristos said:
Hopefully this works, i'm quoting Androhero off another PSP thread:
Now, onto specs:
Xperia Play: 1 ghz cpu
PSX: 33mhz cpu (yes, it's that old)
PS2: 300mhz (actually 294-299mhz)
PSP: 333mhz
PS3: 3.2ghz
So, just off of pure processing power, PS2, PSP and PS3 will not be runable on our phone. 2-3 years in the future? Maybe. Now, just from a developer creating one from scratch? Nope.
Sony Ericsson has the ability to make it, 'cause as Rogue Leader says,
Now, can we stop harassing the developers about PSP emulation? A simple google search (site:forum.xda-developers.com xperia play psp emulation) shows over 2,000 results. We won't have one until Sony Ericsson makes it. Then, maybe, a developer will find a backdoor way to do more games, but until then, please stop asking.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Also add to that ps1 has 2MB (yes MB) of ram.
And don't feed the trolls guys, there's nothing you can say to these kids that will change their opinion. You wouldn't argue with a six year old, so why argue with people on the internet.

[Q] PlayStation games..?

So can someone explain, I am not complaining or anything, but where is the PlayStation suite games (Not the android ones)? Have they released anything more? I know that there's few of them on the marketplace, you can also use PSXerpia tool to play PS1 games, but where are the official ones? I mean there's no awesome titles released, phone was released back in march, is it dead or something? They still making ICS for it so..?
All I found is this:
https://market.android.com/developer?pub=Sony+Computer+Entertainment+Europe+Limited ...1 game?
I mean this phone (as I know) is little more powerfull then PSP, and all I see is one PS1 game in my region. Where are all the Sony exclusive games? God Of War, some MGS, GTA LCS or anything? Are they even planning to release anything? I am confused.

Poland - I see 10 games.

Gotta wait for Playstation Suite, I'd imagine it's coming with the Vita

its out.... i got it its got about 5 games check threads on xda
Sent from my R800i using Tapatalk

PS Pocket app keeps telling me that my region is not supported, how to avoid this problem? I have rooted phone.

This is Sony (Sony Ericsson before) not Sony Computer Entertainment.
This isn't an official PlayStation phone. It's an Android phone that's PlayStation certified.There's a difference.
This is what many people thought when it was announced/launched. Don't expect any SCE published games launching exclusively to the Xperia Play.

T-N-Z said:
PS Pocket app keeps telling me that my region is not supported, how to avoid this problem? I have rooted phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can fake your provider to whatever is most convenient and you will be able to purchase some official PlayStation games from the Android Market if they are available.
I faked to Orange (Canada) and was able to purchase games with my US account.

Just use FPse mate
They have been supporting the Xperia play since it came out and you can play all your favorite Ps1 Games 100% relived.
You can also check out N64oid for a Nintendo emulator or try the other one. Mupen64 but it supports the analog sticks.
I have personally tested Mario 64 on it and it's amazing.
Now onto the bit about XP being more powerful then a PSP?
All of that hope is smacked down with the release of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_Vita
The vita is 2x faster than a Xperia play and it's the next generation PSP coming to NA very soon. SCEA will only be worried about making games for that.
So if you wanted an android computer and you got a xperia. you have made a wise choice . if you wanted a gaming device 100% purely. you made a bad one I think

Nah it's ok, I am not big time gamer or something, just wondering.

I have 10 games available and the Official PS app when I check that link. It is ludicrous that it varies so much across the European Union. Ridiculous

I have 10 to. Uuhm ps app? Which link?

psp games being certefied for playstation certified devices

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/23/psp-games-playstation-certified-devices-ESRB/
they are converting games to work for some devices.
thought it would be nice to update you lot since alot of people ask about psp games on xperia play or any devices
i hope it work for the xperia play i dont see why not if its being developed by sony but not worth getting your hopes up for yet just wait and see for more info

one step in the LONG ASTOUNDINGLY slow road

psxpetey said:
one step in the LONG ASTOUNDINGLY slow road
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, I want to be excited for this but how many more times are we going to get nuggets like this with absolutely 0 results. Every month its "coming out next month"

It gives me hope. Aren't play and sony s/p the only ps sertified devices at the moment?
Sent from my Sony Tablet S using Tapatalk

ps3taker said:
It gives me hope. Aren't play and sony s/p the only ps sertified devices at the moment?
Sent from my Sony Tablet S using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think there's a Jap only Arc variant that's PS certified and I think I read the S and Ion will be PS certified when they launch

Very Nice.

This makes me wonder, if they are being emulated is there any chance of doing same trick as with Playstation pocket, y know
Playing your own PSone games on Plays native emulator
Would be pretty neat

Thewonderboy said:
This makes me wonder, if they are being emulated is there any chance of doing same trick as with Playstation pocket, y know
Playing your own PSone games on Plays native emulator
Would be pretty neat
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Someone refer this guy to Yifan Lu's PSXperia.

actually i was looking and ive been wondering if they will overhaul the emulator to stop the current flaw if not we have a chance otherwise we need another good developer to start reverse engineering the moment it comes out

True True he's a noob to this no sweat lol

CloudShepherd said:
Someone refer this guy to Yifan Lu's PSXperia.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dont know did you understand my point or did i misunderstand everything you said
I know about PSXperia, my question was about native PSP emulation.
I think i just didnt understand you but it hurts nobody to clear things up

Thewonderboy said:
I dont know did you understand my point or did i misunderstand everything you said
I know about PSXperia, my question was about native PSP emulation.
I think i just didnt understand you but it hurts nobody to clear things up
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At the moment i guess psp emulation is taboo, and it will probably never emulate games like kingdom hearts, crisis core, or dissidia, yeah im a square fan, sorry

Thewonderboy said:
I dont know did you understand my point or did i misunderstand everything you said
I know about PSXperia, my question was about native PSP emulation.
I think i just didnt understand you but it hurts nobody to clear things up
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
please please just forget about psp emulation its extremely hard and wont happen on our device by any devs on here. unless sony announces that they are releasing a psp emulator in playstation suite (about a 2% chance) then out it to the back of your head and never mention it. it just wont happen for technical reasons.

Sniper Spr3e said:
please please just forget about psp emulation its extremely hard and wont happen on our device by any devs on here. unless sony announces that they are releasing a psp emulator in playstation suite (about a 2% chance) then out it to the back of your head and never mention it. it just wont happen for technical reasons.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My keyword was IF
If these upcoming PSP titles for PS store are truly emulated, could it be cracked/hacked/tamed or just used for our own games just like PSXperia does with PSX tittles ?
But i agree its unlikely, they are possibly ported, but if if

Thewonderboy said:
My keyword was IF
If these upcoming PSP titles for PS store are truly emulated, could it be cracked/hacked/tamed or just used for our own games just like PSXperia does with PSX tittles ?
But i agree its unlikely, they are possibly ported, but if if
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well i believe they are ported so have been changed ti run natively on arm devices (such as our play) but if it is emulated there is a slight chance that it could be abused in such a way as psxperia is.
on a side note if you download any ps1 games off the market such as medievil they have updated them to 1.0.4 which has a license check each time it starts which may stop psxperia working in ice cream sandwich with a updated crash apk to 1.0.4 if they force it
(this is actaully bad as it means your phone uses alot more data checking licenses which doesnt bother me as i have unlimited data allowance but other users may get annoyed if they have a small limited amount of data)