Database Users

Class 4 SD good enough?

Currently I'm running a 16gb class 2 that I've had since the 16gb's have been out.(used in my Nokia N800) I found a 16GB class 4 on sale in town for $69 where a class 6 is $120. My question since it hasn't been confirmed (or I suck at searching) does the Magic actually take advantage of the class 6 or with the class 4 be good enough? Thanks for any info on this.
Clinton

IMHO I think your better off with a 16gb class 6, as it is recommended for many hacks Android related. Also you could probably find it cheaper online unless Monet is not an issue.

Just rather buy in town, not a big online buyer. I've read that the class 6 is the only way to go for apps 2 SD and the like but I just wanted to have faster access times to music, video and pictures really. That's pretty much all I have on the card, maybe a few docs but nothing I need to access quickly. If the music/video player or Quick office wont see/use the extra speed increase I'd rather save the cash for a nice set of headphones or case etc..
Clinton

Well the classes indicate how fast the SD card is. Class 2 = 2 MB/s, Class 4 = 4 MB/s and so on, so you would feel a difference between the two.

Cheesebaron said:
Well the classes indicate how fast the SD card is. Class 2 = 2 MB/s, Class 4 = 4 MB/s and so on, so you would feel a difference between the two.
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Very useful. I know the difference between card speeds, what I was asking is if the Magic can take advantage of the speed increase or is there a limit? I know in using my Nokia N800 (Linux OS) even the moded kernel only took advantage of the class 4 cards and there was no benefit to the class 6.
Clinton

The SD Speed Class Ratings specify the following minimum write speeds based on "the best fragmented state where no memory unit is occupied":
Class 2: 2 MB/s
Class 4: 4 MB/s
Class 6: 6 MB/s
The Class system is a minimum speed that it should perform at, if you are lucky it will work closer to the next class speed, as most cards actually perform faster then their class.
I have an 6GB class 4 sdhc card and the transfer speed is generally around 9-11 mb/s.
If you are putting a swap file on to your sdhc, a class 4 should be a minimum class you are to look for.
Personally, I use Crystal DiskMark to test the write-transfer-speed of my cards. http://crystalmark.info/software/CrystalDiskMark/index-e.html

id242 said:
The SD Speed Class Ratings specify the following minimum write speeds based on "the best fragmented state where no memory unit is occupied":
Class 2: 2 MB/s
Class 4: 4 MB/s
Class 6: 6 MB/s
The Class system is a minimum speed that it should perform at, if you are lucky it will work closer to the next class speed, as most cards actually perform faster then their class.
I have an 6GB class 4 sdhc card and the transfer speed is generally around 9-11 mb/s.
If you are putting a swap file on to your sdhc, a class 4 should be a minimum class you are to look for.
Personally, I use Crystal DiskMark to test the write-transfer-speed of my cards. http://crystalmark.info/software/CrystalDiskMark/index-e.html
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks I know the speed rating and how they are tested.
I'm not going to be putting a swap on the card or doing apps2sd, it's a Rogers Magic doesn't need either.
Thanks for the link to the speed test, didn't have one.
Does your class4 card give you any troubles at all or have you found it to be up to pare in all your storage needs? Thanks for the reply.
Clinton

Clinton, I mostly use the spare ion for simple photo taking, jotting-down notes and listening to podcasts (via meridian)/streaming radio (via stream furious) in my car. I haven't ever had any problems with it's speed.
I've had the stock 2gb in it for about 2 weeks, then a kingston 6GB class 4 in it for about a month and just this afternoon, picked up a polaroid 8gb class 6 (for $17.99 from Fry's Electronics - in-store).
the only time I have really had any problems with the speed of microsd card was when using them on my DS through r4 or supercard flashcarts. but that was back when 2gb microsd was just hitting the market (that 2gb kingston microsd from verizon was $99. in the USA, verizon was the first to publically sell this size card)
I generally try to stay away from class 2 cards just as one would try to stay away from USB 1.x devices.
without installing any additional software, a quick and simple test to check if the card is quick enough for heavy usage on your phone, might be to test if Vista/Win7 will accept it as ReadyBoost Compatible.

[Q] Micro Sd class 10 or class 6?

I'm looking to buy a new MicroSD and wondering if getting a class 10 over a class 6 would make a significant difference to the phone (if im using data2sd and or apps2sd)
Thank you!

I think the difference between class 6 and 10 would feel minor, where-as the difference between the class 2 and class 6 feels huge.
And since this is the Vibrant forums, I should mention that the internal memory in the phone is very fast. I tested it at over 10MB/s write on my first phone. My second phone its closer to 6 MB/s write. So you apps and stuff should run perfectly fine from the internal app storage.
I should also mention that I purchased the new kingston micro sd thats rated class 4 but claims speeds upto class 10. Upon testing that I got 9 MB/s write. ($28 after $10 reward from buy.com). My previous class 2 16GB card tested it 2.6 MB/s write for comparison.

Shane_pcs said:
I think the difference between class 6 and 10 would feel minor, where-as the difference between the class 2 and class 6 feels huge.
And since this is the Vibrant forums, I should mention that the internal memory in the phone is very fast. I tested it at over 10MB/s write on my first phone. My second phone its closer to 6 MB/s write. So you apps and stuff should run perfectly fine from the internal app storage.
I should also mention that I purchased the new kingston micro sd thats rated class 4 but claims speeds upto class 10. Upon testing that I got 9 MB/s write. ($28 after $10 reward from buy.com). My previous class 2 16GB card tested it 2.6 MB/s write for comparison.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just to help out here...
the difference between class 2 and class 6 is the exact same as class 6 and class 10. Remember the cd-rom speeds (52x, etc)? That's how the speed is calculated for a SDHC card. So a class 2 = 2x cdrom, class 6 = 6x, class 10 = 10x.
whether our hardware has capability to handle what a class 10 can do, that I don't know. I'd definitely advise to get something with more space than a 2GB card though - I'm not sure everyone needs a 32 (personal opinion/long discussion), but I absolutely agree it should be improved upon.

designerfx said:
Just to help out here...
the difference between class 2 and class 6 is the exact same as class 6 and class 10. Remember the cd-rom speeds (52x, etc)? That's how the speed is calculated for a SDHC card. So a class 2 = 2x cdrom, class 6 = 6x, class 10 = 10x.
whether our hardware has capability to handle what a class 10 can do, that I don't know. I'd definitely advise to get something with more space than a 2GB card though - I'm not sure everyone needs a 32 (personal opinion/long discussion), but I absolutely agree it should be improved upon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand that, thats why i picked those classes. But my point is that a class 6 card is 3x the speed of a class2 where class 10 isnt even twice as fast as the class 6. So the perceived difference is smaller, even though the technical difference is the same.

I'm still running a class 2 and I've been wondering if this is holding me back on this phone (card was previously in my G1).
Will the lower classes function the same (creating ext2 etc...) it's just a matter of speed? Just wondering if there's anything that simply can't be done with a class2 or even 6 that could be done with a 10.

CapitalM3 said:
I'm still running a class 2 and I've been wondering if this is holding me back on this phone (card was previously in my G1).
Will the lower classes function the same (creating ext2 etc...) it's just a matter of speed? Just wondering if there's anything that simply can't be done with a class2 or even 6 that could be done with a 10.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just cost you more. Do you really need a class 10 for this phone? Avatar is on a card that isnt even a class 2.

Vegastouch said:
Just cost you more. Do you really need a class 10 for this phone? Avatar is on a card that isnt even a class 2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
xD What class was the stock sd card?

I only ever see class 6+ cards being used in higher end compact cameras and SLRs.
Putting anything higher than class 6 in a phone your using for apps/music/movies isn't needed and just a waste of money.
I've also seen a lot of people saying the memory card speeds with the galaxy s are bottlenecked right now, so your not even going to get top speeds with a class 6.

Vegastouch said:
Just cost you more. Do you really need a class 10 for this phone? Avatar is on a card that isnt even a class 2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While the card isn't marked, it tests out at just over 4MB/s which would put it in a class 4.
And we should be clear that the class refers to the write speed. A class 2 will read at 10 MB/s just like the other classes. Where you run into issues with class 2 cards is when you start modding or running programs from the sd card. If you use the card for a swap partition or something the write speed now plays a major factor in the usefulness.
If all you want it for is to place your music files on there and listen to them, then a class 2 will be plenty. That was my initial thought when I bought my 1st 16 GB card for my mytouch3g. Then I got into custom roms and found myself limited.

How do you test the speed of the SD card?

What size microsd card are you looking for? If its a 32GB, I have only seen a Sandisk microsd in Class 2. As far as I know there are no higher classes at this time. Hopefully that will change soon. I would like to get all of my music onto one 32gb card.

designerfx said:
Just to help out here...
the difference between class 2 and class 6 is the exact same as class 6 and class 10. Remember the cd-rom speeds (52x, etc)? That's how the speed is calculated for a SDHC card. So a class 2 = 2x cdrom, class 6 = 6x, class 10 = 10x.
whether our hardware has capability to handle what a class 10 can do, that I don't know. I'd definitely advise to get something with more space than a 2GB card though - I'm not sure everyone needs a 32 (personal opinion/long discussion), but I absolutely agree it should be improved upon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This isnt exactly true. with cdroms the X stands for how much faster it would spin in relation to a audio cd. So 1x ment it spun at the same speed as a audio cd. 2x was twice, ext ext. And this was a max speed.
Classes for SDCard stands for the minimum transfer speed. class two is at least 2mbps, class 6 is 6mbps, and so on.

frankencat said:
How do you test the speed of the SD card?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
google FDbench
it will test the read and write speed as well as operations per second.

I still can't find a 32gb microsd class 10, anyone find one for sale?

Class 10
Class 10 limitation presently is 8 gig for all brands except the Kingston and soon to be released Silicon Power. The Kingston brand never benches as advertised, so they are not reliable from my point of view. Silicon power has been pretty solid on their claims from my testing versus their claims, but I have not yet got my hands on the latest class 10 16 gig, I have been trying to buy for the since 10-1-2010 but not out in USA yet.
Kingston (in my opinion) is rife with false claims and I find their products have always been sub par.
Flashing and alike works better with class 6 over class 2 & 4. So, if you really want more memory the only 32 gig class 6 I have seen advertised (amazon) are: Transcend, Centon, and Komputerbay (what a name?!) 32 gig Class 6
Other than that, we wil just have to wait until they get the algorithm figured out for a micro ad card with that much ram and that fast.

Get the app "sd card speed test" it works ok Im sure there are others as well

I imagine the only reason you would need a Class 6 card or above is if you plan to take a lot of HD video. Apart from that, even a Class 2 is fast enough to keep up with the still camera, not to mention anything that just requires reads, like music or movie playback.
As for running apps off an external SD card, why would you ever want to do that? You can load close to 2GB on the internal app space, which is likely way faster than any mounted external SD card. I feel like an app whore and I'm not even close to using half that space. By the time apps start getting large enough that it's an issue, we'll be on the Vibrant 2 or beyond.

glad that you asked
merrifield69 said:
I'm looking to buy a new MicroSD and wondering if getting a class 10 over a class 6 would make a significant difference to the phone (if im using data2sd and or apps2sd)
Thank you!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
because I just picked up a 16G class 10 by WinTec last week and it is VERY fast from boot up with 9G occupied from 15G available (wondered 1G gone to? and that is a lot of gone G lol). It was $42 wo tax expensive but so far the fastest.

Whoohoo
mine 16G class 10 tested 2x >8M and 1x >9M write, 3x > 18M read and it was probably so fast that the result said "unknown class" lol. x means 1 run with 2MB buffer setting. Downloaded app call SD card speed tester.

There are now some 32GB class 6 SDCARDS on the markey, and with 2.2 and installing apps to SD that might matter. It might also matter if you have a TON of music and images, as "Scanning SD for Media" would be faster.
You will pay money for the time savings though.

[Q] tmobile HD2 problem: Microsd 32Gb class 10 copy speed less than 4MB/sec

I got a 32Gb MicroSDHC class-10 memorette card.
I verified the speed with a card reader + h2testw that write speed is : 14.7MByte/sec
read speed: 17.5MByte/sec
But when I used the class10 card in tmobile HD2, I am shocked.
When I copy a 720MB movie the write speed is about 4MByte/sec.
h2testw program when used on hd2 connected to PC, showed write speed as 4.8 MByte/sec only.
It needs to be noted the same card when tested with h2testw and a card reader gave 14MByte/sec but gives less than 4.5MB/sec on HD2.
How to fix this problem of HD2 microsd card speed!
Looks like HD2 usb controller has some problem.
the card is indeed class-10.
Please let me know a solution to this problem on HD2.

downbc1 said:
I got a 32Gb MicroSDHC class-10 memorette card.
I verified the speed with a card reader + h2testw that write speed is : 14.7MByte/sec
read speed: 17.5MByte/sec
But when I used the class10 card in tmobile HD2, I am shocked.
When I copy a 720MB movie the write speed is about 4MByte/sec.
h2testw program when used on hd2 connected to PC, showed write speed as 4.8 MByte/sec only.
It needs to be noted the same card when tested with h2testw and a card reader gave 14MByte/sec but gives less than 4.5MB/sec on HD2.
How to fix this problem of HD2 microsd card speed!
Looks like HD2 usb controller has some problem.
the card is indeed class-10.
Please let me know a solution to this problem on HD2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The HD2 doesn't read or write to sd cards at that high of speed... that's why it's pointless using class 6 or 10 cards in a HD2. I think most phones are like that. Class 6 and 10 cards are mainly used for digital cameras, where having high sequential write speeds matters.

zarathustrax said:
The HD2 doesn't read or write to sd cards at that high of speed... that's why it's pointless using class 6 or 10 cards in a HD2. I think most phones are like that. Class 6 and 10 cards are mainly used for digital cameras, where having high sequential write speeds matters.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have earlier used a nokia 5800 xpressmusic phone with a class 6 16GB card.
The data transfer speeds were higher than HD2.
Generalizing from a single instance (HD2 scenario) may not be correct.

I'm going to go with that the HD2 does not transfer faster than 5.3 MB/sec between the PC and the phone regardless of what the internal transfer rate between the phone and card is.
Using a class 6 card myself, i have noticed that the phone is much more responsive than it was with the class 2 card in there and movies play without stuttering from the class 6 card and applications launch quicker.
my nokia n81 8gb did 8MB/sec from internal 8GB and so did my KM900. The KM900 did 6.2MB from the same classs 6 card

I was under the impression the HD2 maxed at 16 gig. Maybe that's the problem?

Like zarathustrax said, the HD2 isn't capable of read/write any higher than a class 4 card. I think somewhere on the EVO forum there's a fix to unlock the read/write capability for a higher speed but I dunno if anyone here has tried the fix, or if it even works for the HD2 at all.

anhyeuemmaimai said:
I'm going to go with that the HD2 does not transfer faster than 5.3 MB/sec between the PC and the phone regardless of what the internal transfer rate between the phone and card is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not true. I've copied large files at over 10MB/s directly to the phone. I can't vouch for every hd2 though as it's quite possible they have different hardware. Also the speed drops dramatically if you're copying many smaller files.

I am thinking to buy memorette 32 gb microsd class 10 for my HD2.
As far as I have understood:
1) No matther what I cannot use it fully Class 10 speed when connected to HD2
2) When I connect it to my PC with card reader I can fully use class 10 speed.
I have sandial 8 gb class 2. When I connect it to my pc with card reader and transfering large amount of data (150+ MB), it cease to operate. I have to reconnect it. Then I shuld transfer in less amount of data or reduce copy speed (such as UltraCopy) . I think that is a safety issue for preventing disk from get burned. My question is, will I possibly have some issues with memorette or some other class 10 cards?
Also would it not better using class 10 card in HD2 for using on SD installed Operating System instead of class 6 or 4?
I would appriciate if someone return about memorette. I have never heard about that trademark. I am planning to bid on ebay today.
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App

lude219 said:
Like zarathustrax said, the HD2 isn't capable of read/write any higher than a class 4 card. I think somewhere on the EVO forum there's a fix to unlock the read/write capability for a higher speed but I dunno if anyone here has tried the fix, or if it even works for the HD2 at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
fix to unlock the read/write capability for a higher speed ????? Really ... i have buy a micro sd 16GB class 10 ........

morfil said:
I am thinking to buy memorette 32 gb microsd class 10 for my HD2.
As far as I have understood:
1) No matther what I cannot use it fully Class 10 speed when connected to HD2
2) When I connect it to my PC with card reader I can fully use class 10 speed.
I have sandial 8 gb class 2. When I connect it to my pc with card reader and transfering large amount of data (150+ MB), it cease to operate. I have to reconnect it. Then I shuld transfer in less amount of data or reduce copy speed (such as UltraCopy) . I think that is a safety issue for preventing disk from get burned. My question is, will I possibly have some issues with memorette or some other class 10 cards?
Also would it not better using class 10 card in HD2 for using on SD installed Operating System instead of class 6 or 4?
I would appriciate if someone return about memorette. I have never heard about that trademark. I am planning to bid on ebay today.
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A good quality class 2 or 4 sd card is usually better for running an operating system off of, as lower class cards tend to have faster random access speed and better random read/write speeds. Class 6 and 10 sd cards are designed to have a higher sequential write speed, but to achieve these higher speeds, the card initializes the part of the card that's about to be used. The initialization takes some extra time to get started, but boosts the sequential write/read speed so it's great for digital cameras or writing files sequentially.
But when it comes to using the card to run an OS off of, like android or wp7, or using the card to run apps off of, you are going to be reading and writing many small bits of data from different parts of the card. When it comes to this, you need a card that has a good random access speed and random read/write speeds. A high class card that is tweaked to have high sequential read/write speeds ends up being slower because it keeps initializing each part of the card before accessing it, while the lower class 2 or 4 card that doesn't do the initialization is a lot quicker accessing many small parts of the card because it doesn't have that extra step... but they don't get the speed boosts with sequential read/write.
Many people just assume that a higher class card is always going to be better, but this isn't true at all. It all depends on what you are using the card for. Higher class 6 or 10 cards are perfect for digital cameras, recording video, or transferring large files, etc... if you are going to be doing sequential reading or writing, higher class is better.
But for running apps off of, or running an OS off of, or using it as internal memory for an OS like wp7, or anything that will be accessing many parts of the card quickly or reading many small bits of data, etc., you want a card with a good random access speed and random read/write speeds, and that is something that is not rated on cards... but generally lower class cards are better than higher class cards... especially if you get a good quality brand, like sandisk. Sandisk class 2 and 4 are very good cards for random access speeds.
I hope some of you find this info useful and stop assuming a higher class card means better for all situations.

buzz killington said:
This is not true. I've copied large files at over 10MB/s directly to the phone. I can't vouch for every hd2 though as it's quite possible they have different hardware. Also the speed drops dramatically if you're copying many smaller files.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You must be special then. In my tests I had no difference in a class 2 and class 6.

morfil said:
I am thinking to buy memorette 32 gb microsd class 10 for my HD2.
As far as I have understood:
1) No matther what I cannot use it fully Class 10 speed when connected to HD2
2) When I connect it to my PC with card reader I can fully use class 10 speed.
I have sandial 8 gb class 2. When I connect it to my pc with card reader and transfering large amount of data (150+ MB), it cease to operate. I have to reconnect it. Then I shuld transfer in less amount of data or reduce copy speed (such as UltraCopy) . I think that is a safety issue for preventing disk from get burned. My question is, will I possibly have some issues with memorette or some other class 10 cards?
Also would it not better using class 10 card in HD2 for using on SD installed Operating System instead of class 6 or 4?
I would appriciate if someone return about memorette. I have never heard about that trademark. I am planning to bid on ebay today.
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am using memorette class 10 32GB microsd currently.
Its affordable and is fully working. I have tested to full capacity read/write using h2testw as I wrote in an earlier post.
Just check the seller's feedback and the description though.

I use TEAM micro sd class 10 on my hero,but after a month my sd card write speed is only 2MB/s.
At the first time,it reach 11MB/s when i tested it with h2testw and sd speed test on my handset.
I only use 640MB for app2sd (ext2) without swap cache.
Could someone explain to me what was happen to my sd card?
Sorry for my bad English

[Q] What is better about a class 10 mico sdhc compared to a class 2?

I am about to buy another micro sdhc card and was wondering what the big difference between the two would be between the classes. I already know what the classes mean, class 2 means it will write at 2 megabits a secound, where as 10 writes at 10 megabits a secound.
My question is what would that extra speed allow you to do what you wouldn't be able to do before. Where would a fast card really shine. is there a maxamium speed that the phone can run at.
would it be better for running android sd, linux in a virtul machine on android (forgot what that is called) watching movies on sd, or apps, games on sd
i also have a asus transformer 10" honeycomb tablet would that i might use it in.

does anybody know?

Doesn't really make a big difference in running an SD Android build. I've been running multiple SD builds on the 16gb class 2 that came with my HD2 for like 2 years, and it is butter smooth. I've seen people on the HD2 forum who bought class 10 cards and had problems. The standard answer that you'll usually find around here about SD cards is that it's pretty much a hit-or-miss thing.
I personally wouldn't waste my money on a more expensive card just for faster write speed, since it seems like if it makes a difference at all, its a negligable difference.

Class is a measure only used on microsd. It means the sdcard MUST be able to withstand writing to it at 10mb/s. So yeah, a class10 should be better than a class2.
Wikipedia
The Speed Class Rating is the official unit of speed measurement for SD Cards, defined by the SD Association. The Class number represents a multiple of 8 Mbit/s (1 MB/s), the least sustained write speeds for a card in a fragmented state (Class 2, 4, 6) or the minimum non-fragmented sequential write speed (Class 10).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In reality...
No one guarantees that the sdcard reader/writer can write to it at the given speed (or even needs to). Also, many times de class is a basic measure. My 16gb class 10 can be written (on a computer) at 21mb/s tops. Many class2/4 can be written at class10 speeds or above. It's just a guarantee. As a user rarely writes data sequentially, a class 6 should be enough, making a class 10 better only when copying LARGE files (ex. mp3) to the card.
Now, i've never seen, and there's no statistic that class X cards are better than class Y. There are brands better than others, but that's it.
BTW, in Android at least (this must apply on other OS's), increasing sdcard cache to 1024 or above (at a maximum of 2048) improves write speed immensely.

Class 10 will give you faster speed when you transfer large files from pc to card ( videos updated gps map etc ) but I also read somewhere that higher class card uses more battery even in standby . Class 4 should be more than good .

budalica said:
Class 10 will give you faster speed when you transfer large files from pc to card ( videos updated gps map etc ) but I also read somewhere that higher class card uses more battery even in standby . Class 4 should be more than good .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Make it 6... faster non sequential write speed

[Q] Which is the best SD card for Samsung galaxy Y for using link2sd without lag?

Hi,
I am a newbie . Got my first ever android (samsung galaxy Y 5360) the other day. Rooted it too . Found out my phone's got low internal storage memory. I want to increase my phone's internal memory by using link2sd (or any other better app if present) and loading apps from my microsd card. I am now trying to get a good sd card to do the needful.
What I wanted to know is which is the optimal sd card(not particular about brand) with its class number (4gb class 4, 8gb class 6, 16gb class 10, etc) that I can use so that I can get "the best performance" out of my "Galaxy Y."
I was going to go for a 16gb class 10 microsd card but upon using Google i saw in some places class 6 is better for small read writes like in the case of using link2sd app and that class 10 is better for transferring of big files (and making videos and stuff) and that there's going to be lag in class 10 cards of 16 gb and 32 gb, etc for my purpose. At some other places i saw that class 10 is always better no matter what. Or maybe i just misunderstood the whole thing.
For example for my above purpose, is an 8gb (or 16gb) class 6 card going to perform better than an 8gb(or 16gb) class 10 card
thank you

The higher the class the better the read/write speed
I had a 32gb class 10 and it worked fine - to be honest apart from transferring very large files (and fat32 doesn't support larger than 2gb file) you probably will not notice any difference

marcussmith2626 said:
The higher the class the better the read/write speed
I had a 32gb class 10 and it worked fine - to be honest apart from transferring very large files (and fat32 doesn't support larger than 2gb file) you probably will not notice any difference
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks