Database Users

Official --- No Froyo for X10

Today Xperia blog posted that SE UK officially announced that there will be no froyo or gingerbread released for X10 family
Source
http://www.xperiax10.net/2011/01/06...-will-not-receive-upgrade-to-froyo-or-beyond/

sharathx10 said:
Today Xperia blog posted that SE UK officially announced that there will be no froyo or gingerbread released for X10 family
Source
http://www.xperiax10.net/2011/01/06...-will-not-receive-upgrade-to-froyo-or-beyond/
Click to expand...
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TADA: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=902414

It is so obvious
Android 2.2 and above has the option of installing apps on SD card, phone with 2.2 dosent require 1GB of internal memory. SE designed this so as to support till 2.1

This is awesome!!!!!!!!!
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If you remember the phone came out before froyo was announced. You can't accuse them of not designing the phone for something that didn't exist at the time.
Having said that, it isn't an excuse for not supporting froyo. Everyone knows it can handle it. Heck, there are custom Roms lol
Sent from my X10a using XDA App

pngface said:
If you remember the phone came out before froyo was announced. You can't accuse them of not designing the phone for something that didn't exist at the time.
Having said that, it isn't an excuse for not supporting froyo. Everyone knows it can handle it. Heck, there are custom Roms lol
Sent from my X10a using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC Magic wasn't designed for 1.6...nor 2.1...and it got officially updated to froyo:
http://engmobdev.weblogsinc.com/2010/12/14/htc-magic-gets-froyo-on-vodafone-uk/
That ins't an excuse in my opinion, the new xperia mini is almost like our x10 and it will have froyo.
As i said in another thread, i'm wondering now what are those "great news" unknown13x was talking about...because i can't seem to find anything great apart from froyo or gingerbread... (knowing we will got MT and DLNA in the next update)

LOL i was right all along
Sent from my X10i using XDA App

Hey any of you remember this? This guy got flamed hardcore by SE believers.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=772523
Not starting a flame war again, but SE has been known to do this as I said in one of my posts in this thread. No surprise here.

sopdogg said:
Hey any of you remember this? This guy got flamed hardcore by SE believers.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=772523
Not starting a flame war again, but SE has been known to do this as I said in one of my posts in this thread. No surprise here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it would seems like that guy is rite. perhaps he's from SE company. i wonder...

That's what he stated, he was a part of the DEV team. Other than spelling Xperia "experia", it seemed to me that he knew what he was talking about.

For those who haven't seen, SE UK posted this to their Twitter feed earlier:
http://twitter.com/#!/SonyEricssonUK/status/23028920475455488 said:
We believe the features included in the Android 2.1 phone are on par with, and in many cases better than, a vanilla installation of 2.2 #X10
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Click to collapse
Idiots! They're getting flamed (rightly so) for it too.

Read through the SELeak thread again and laughed at all the smart folks here.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but nowhere have I seen SE state that the X10 series will get no more updates. Maybe they're skipping 2.2 in favor of 2.4?

nekkidtruth said:
Just playing devil's advocate here, but nowhere have I seen SE state that the X10 series will get no more updates. Maybe they're skipping 2.2 in favor of 2.4?
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i think they said no froyo and onwards.

Hmm... I wonder where unknown13 is?

Lol maybe he didn't know about this either...
Or if he did, maybe he heard that there wasn't going to be a Froyo update and hence assumed that X10 will get gingerbread

my X10 is heavily used for exchange, gmail syncs and gaming. so i need to keep the os updated. well i guess i'll be selling my X10 very soon. unless we can get the hardware working off the AOSP mods and the darn bootloader
i've always liked SE phones but i think that's the last of it... HTC FTW

In Product blog
Rikard Skogberg says: January 6, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Hi all First – As a clarification regarding the current Xperia products –
We are planning another upgrade to bring new features (such as for example multi-touch for Xperia X10) to the current family of Xperia™ smartphones in Q1 2011.
However, at this stage those plans do not include updating the underlying Android version
This decision is based on that we believe that with the current hardware platform an overhaul of the underlying core OS wouldn’t drastically improve the user experience
We believe that the current Xperia range on Android 2.1 coupled with our proprietary upgrades and unique hardware delivers a user experience that is on par with, and in many cases better than, a vanilla installation of Android 2.2
Our priority right now is to keep enhancing the user experience of the existing products through coming updates and to deliver a fantastic range of smartphones in 2011 that are all on the latest possible version of Android – that is a target we are determined to hit! version of Android – that is a target we are determined to hit
Sent from my SO-01B using XDA App

sopdogg said:
That's what he stated, he was a part of the DEV team. Other than spelling Xperia "experia", it seemed to me that he knew what he was talking about.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For one, I know that while toying with the brand SE did use "Experia" at one point or another.
Some of those guys that gave him all that rot, should very seriously apologize in that thread.

Oh it is disappointing My eyes on Xperia Arc now

Android 2.3.5 coming to Xperia Arc in november?

Hi,
Today, the French telecom company SFR published the update schedule of their Android handsets and guess what? We will get android 2.3.5 very soon.
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Source: Club SFR pour android

You'd think they would have thought of a better name than "Comingo".

XperienceD said:
You'd think they would have thought of a better name than "Comingo".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry or the error! I just post it and I cannot edit the title of the post now
Edit: problem fixed

2.3.4 in the UK now would be nice first!

bigyinn said:
2.3.4 in the UK now would be nice first!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol, hear in south east asia, we already got 2.3.4 since 20 september

oh~~that is good news~~~but is it tested?stable or not?

How should we test an unreleased firmware?
But SE's stock firmwares are stable normally
Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk

SE are really doing great in this area these days. Good on them!

Hope they release the firmware with the kernel sources too. So DoomKernel can work on 2.3.5. later
Hhehehe
Sent from my LT15i using xda premium

If they will release 2.3.5 in November... when will they release ICS ?
now I can see a pattern of a new version update in nearly 3 months... it was 2.3.2 when launched and later in early Q3 updated to 2.3.3, in late Q3 they started the 2.3.4 update... and now in Q4 they're preparing the 2.3.5 update...
I just hope they can bring ICS very soon.. I mean like early Q1, January or February maximum...

Well I think they will release it next year but not sure when..
Well you know SE slow at updates but what they make is a piece of masterpiece.
So I think they r working at their best
Sent from my LT15i using xda premium

chitose_ndy said:
Well you know SE slow at updates but what they make is a piece of masterpiece.
So I think they r working at their best
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1, we are waiting SE cook their ice cream sandwich into a banquet

jason_jiang said:
+1, we are waiting SE cook their ice cream sandwich into a banquet
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hell yeah
I have compared android phones.
And I just like arc the best.
Arc just have the perfection.
Even my friend who bought a samsung galaxy S 2, after he see my arc, he regrets buying samsung.
He said arc just look better and look perfect.
Sent from my LT15i using xda premium

Sure can't wait for Ice Cream Sandwich for Arc

chitose_ndy said:
Hell yeah
I have compared android phones.
And I just like arc the best.
Arc just have the perfection.
Even my friend who bought a samsung galaxy S 2, after he see my arc, he regrets buying samsung.
He said arc just look better and look perfect.
Sent from my LT15i using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lols... cant agree with you more mate.
in term of design SE the best, 90/100 for spec, but with more function compared to others.
i spent almost 2 and a half hour deciding on buying my arc...
tested every hi spec samsung and htc phone in the store, well this is i love the most.
only 1 thing i regret the most,
the new arc s came out just after 2 weeks i bought my arc.
sony did claim mentioned arc the flagship product and the ultimate xperia smartphone.
btw, is there any change log for the upcoming gb 2.3.5?

nujhum said:
lols... cant agree with you more mate.
in term of design SE the best, 90/100 for spec, but with more function compared to others.
i spent almost 2 and a half hour deciding on buying my arc...
tested every hi spec samsung and htc phone in the store, well this is i love the most.
only 1 thing i regret the most,
the new arc s came out just after 2 weeks i bought my arc.
sony did claim mentioned arc the flagship product and the ultimate xperia smartphone.
btw, is there any change log for the upcoming gb 2.3.5?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah that's the thing man,
I bought arc and then few weeks later the arc s came out..
So sad
No change log I think..
Sent from my LT15i using xda premium

nujhum said:
lols... cant agree with you more mate.
in term of design SE the best, 90/100 for spec, but with more function compared to others.
i spent almost 2 and a half hour deciding on buying my arc...
tested every hi spec samsung and htc phone in the store, well this is i love the most.
only 1 thing i regret the most,
the new arc s came out just after 2 weeks i bought my arc.
sony did claim mentioned arc the flagship product and the ultimate xperia smartphone.
btw, is there any change log for the upcoming gb 2.3.5?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that is not a problem, the only diference between the arc and arc s is a same procesor overclocked

ICS late March/April + more info, no Play successor YET.

So i was bored. Decided to start chatting to someone at Sony on the live chat, fishing details out of her were a bit slow but this is what i got, just going to post the useful information.
Arron: is there any estimate for the Xperia 2011 phones getting Ice Cream Sandwhich?
Hayley:The release date is late March/ April. Any information at the moment would be posted on our blogs here: http://blogs.sonymobile.com/
Arron: Being an Xplay user i was wondering if there is any word of a successor?
Hayley:There is no development or plans for a new phone of this type.
Arron: A lot of people are wondering when the UK/EU and other parts of the world are going to start receiving some form of the Playstation store offering Playstation/Sony games other than PSX classics i.e. Japan getting Loco Roco etc.
Hayley: There are many new exciting ideas we have ready to push out shortly after the release of the upcoming firmware, I cannot say what.

tekken179 said:
So i was bored. Decided to start chatting to someone at Sony on the live chat, fishing details out of her were a bit slow but this is what i got, just going to post the useful information.
Arron: is there any estimate for the Xperia 2011 phones getting Ice Cream Sandwhich?
Hayley:The release date is late March/ April. Any information at the moment would be posted on our blogs here: http://blogs.sonymobile.com/
Arron: Being an Xplay user i was wondering if there is any word of a successor?
Hayley:There is no development or plans for a new phone of this type.
Arron: A lot of people are wondering when the UK/EU and other parts of the world are going to start receiving some form of the Playstation store offering Playstation/Sony games other than PSX classics i.e. Japan getting Loco Roco etc.
Hayley: There are many new exciting ideas we have ready to push out shortly after the release of the upcoming firmware, I cannot say what.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Basically what she's saying is that all in good time

sufy1000 said:
Basically what she's saying is that all in good time
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Click to collapse
yep so we are looking at a lot more to come with are play's

Didn't I read somewhere that most of the 2011 series phones would be getting ICS at the end of March / start of April but that the Play wouldn't be one of them as it's got different hardware and requires more work? In fact, I recall May / June being quoted at one stage.
I'm not sure how much truth there is in what I just said and I can't find the original thread that I am thinking of so sorry if I have gotten this completely wrong
EDIT:
Didn't see the other thread on this topic. I guess it's just a wait and see.

http://blogs.sonymobile.com/products/2011/12/21/ice-cream-sandwich-coming-to-2011-xperia%E2%84%A2-smartphones-from-end-marchearly-april-2012/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=ice-cream-sandwich-coming-to-2011-xperia%25e2%2584%25a2-smartphones-from-end-marchearly-april-2012
Soon after, starting from end April/early May, Xperia™ arc, Xperia™ PLAY, Xperia™ neo, Xperia™ mini and mini pro, Xperia™ pro, Xperia™ active as well as Sony Ericsson Live with Walkman™ will get their upgrades.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Very interesting, so that means we will get access to the playstation network in about a month or two...this is awesome news
Sent from my U8800 using xda premium

new to this...
i just rooted my phone like 10 mins ago... what would this mean for a rooted phone? would you have to unroot it to get the update?

Misfit138 said:
i just rooted my phone like 10 mins ago... what would this mean for a rooted phone? would you have to unroot it to get the update?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No it's only if u unlock the bootloader your ok rooted:-D
From Sony's website
Also, if you unlock the boot loader, you will not be able to download and install the final Ice Cream Sandwich software upgrade for Xperia™ phones. For additional information on limitations and warranty, please see our Unlock boot loader service page.
Sent from my R800i using Tapatalk

if i go back to the stock rom over ft. the bootloader remains to be open?

tekken179 said:
Hayley:There is no development or plans for a new phone of this type.
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Crushed hopes and dreams
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Leraeniesh said:
Crushed hopes and dreams
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That's just a concept render; you or I could create one of those in paint and it would be just as credible

That pic looks smoking hot....

Important

Hi all Xperia 2011 users we will some lose cm support. We maybe won't get update to 4.2 eaven.
So all good developer buying new phones. I think it time to make own team of developers to make cm roms for 4.2 plus...
What you think?
Sent from my LT15i using xda app-developers app

So true n1kolaa. I've seen your request on Twitter for porting cm roms by nAa, whose work is actually incredible. I came from x10 mini pro community and I was one of the testers of minicm roms. We have two options as of now.
1) request devs like nobodyatall to start supporting our devices as they are pretty similar. Correct me if I'm wrong. (Arc, arcS, pro)
2) form a new team for ourselves and start developing with help from recognized devs.
Our forms lack recognized developers and I dont understand why. The community I came from which is x10 mini pro is still getting huge support and it might even get a fully working 4.2 where as 2011 Xperia's are struggling to get it. No offense to anyone.
On otherside lets hope we get 4.2 port by fxp :thumbup:
Cheers.
Sent from my MK16i using xda app-developers app

We should get XDA mods to merge Xperia Ray, Arc, Arc S, Neo and Neo V forums. Those devices are very similar, and it will be much easier to swap ideas and new features.

sdk16420 said:
We should get XDA mods to merge Xperia Ray, Arc, Arc S, Neo and Neo V forums. Those devices are very similar, and it will be much easier to swap ideas and new features.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good idea

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*accessories

sdk16420 said:
We should get XDA mods to merge Xperia Ray, Arc, Arc S, Neo and Neo V forums. Those devices are very similar, and it will be much easier to swap ideas and new features.
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Click to collapse
I agree. It's working out well with the NXT phones so I wouldn't see why it wouldn't work here.
Sent from my LT15a using xda-developers app

Nothing is endless. Don't expect all the developers to provide lifetime support for some old device.

Someguyfromhell said:
Nothing is endless. Don't expect all the developers to provide lifetime support for some old device.
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Click to collapse
Very true. I've pointed this out in the thread with the jelly bean petition. Nothing lasts forever as you said. Everyone wants to upgrade to newer phones with newer technologies and whatnot. There's a reason why the X10 didn't get ICS. Other than probably a couple hardware limitations, Sony wants people to move onto bigger and better devices. It's also a marketing strategy. If they weren't releasing phones every year then they would have the time to upgrade older devices as that would be their focus.
Sent from my LT15a using xda-developers app

DdcCabuslay said:
Very true. I've pointed this out in the thread with the jelly bean petition. Nothing lasts forever as you said. Everyone wants to upgrade to newer phones with newer technologies and whatnot. There's a reason why the X10 didn't get ICS. Other than probably a couple hardware limitations, Sony wants people to move onto bigger and better devices. It's also a marketing strategy. If they weren't releasing phones every year then they would have the time to upgrade older devices as that would be their focus.
Sent from my LT15a using xda-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's totally unrelated. FXP doesn't earn money if Sony sells more 2012 phones...
Developer support ends because there aren't enough users to justify the time spent working on ROM's. As the FXP team pointed out elsewhere, they would probably have to create an 3.x kernel from scratch, which will take 6 months. In 6 months, the number of people using their 2011 Xperia daily will probably be half or less of that today. I notice activity on the forum declining rapidly since this summer.

sdk16420 said:
That's totally unrelated. FXP doesn't earn money if Sony sells more 2012 phones...
Developer support ends because there aren't enough users to justify the time spent working on ROM's. As the FXP team pointed out elsewhere, they would probably have to create an 3.x kernel from scratch, which will take 6 months. In 6 months, the number of people using their 2011 Xperia daily will probably be half or less of that today. I notice activity on the forum declining rapidly since this summer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
:$
Well I thought I would put my opinion there. I wasn't talking about FXP and devs but more about Sony in general
Sorry
Sent from my LT15a using xda-developers app

Sorry, nothing against that, in fact I agree with you, but Ithought you were talking about FXP, it seemed a bit unrelated

sdk16420 said:
*accessories
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you put this forward to the relevant People?, if not come support it HERE
EDIT: Has you may have already seen...
NotATreoFan said:
We are working on a redesign of all Sony forums currently, and anticipate being done within a few weeks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...so will be interesting to see what they come up with.

I've sent a PM to diestarbucks 2 days ago, he has forwarded it to the relevant mods. Awaiting reply.

I'm up for it, anything to make it last just a little longer

BTW, maybe it would be better to add Neo L development to Xperia Play forums. Neo L is kind of a weird add-on now, as ROM's for Neo are not simply compatible with it.
New version.

sdk16420 said:
New version.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's better. :good:

¿Android 4.4.4 Update for Sony Xperia Z in middle of August?

Android 4.4.4 Update for Sony Xperia Z
Sony has recently started rolling out Android 4.4.4 update for three of its smartphones; Xperia Z1, Xperia Z1 Compact and Xperia Z Ultra.
Though Android 4.4.4 is not a major update and is only minor one with few bug fixes but still Sony fans from all over the world are anxiously waiting for this update.
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Especially the users of Sony Xperia Z are curious to know if Sony will roll out Android 4.4.4 update for Sony Xperia Z or not.
Wel, for all the Xperia Z users we have a great news. Sony has planned to roll out Android 4.4.4 update for Sony Xperia Z as well. However, the exact date is not known as of yet.
According to the inside sources, Sony believes that its last year flagship should get the latest Android 4.4.4 as it fixes few major bugs.
This new update will most probably be available to download by the mid of August. Android 4.4.4 update for Sony Xperia Z will not only improve the overall performance of the device but will also ensure that the battery drain issue is resolved.
With the roll out of Android 4.4.4 update for Sony Xperia Z we might witness an end to future updates for the last year flagship.
However, it’s still too early to say.​
Source:
http://smartphonetechie.com/android-4-4-4-update-sony-xperia-z/
true or not?

Lol the text is nice copied xD
We shall see but sure we all hope we get 4.4.4 ^^
Send from my XZ With My Own Personal Modified MoonWalker SuperB !

We deserve it...
4.4.2 was an odd job, full of mistakes, lags and battery drains. So I expect further updates if Sony wants to make happy it's customers. We spent a lot of money in a flagship which is not even 2 years old.
Anyway, we have great developers here in XDA and outside, I hope they stay long time with this device because it is fantastic and has nothing to envy for newer phones. Indeed I'm using CM11 by thomas and except the camera, all is working better than stock.
Sent from my Xperia Z using XDA Free mobile app

jpacho89 said:
We deserve it...
4.4.2 was an odd job, full of mistakes, lags and battery drains. So I expect further updates if Sony wants to make happy it's customers. We spent a lot of money in a flagship which is not even 2 years old.
Anyway, we have great developers here in XDA and outside, I hope they stay long time with this device because it is fantastic and has nothing to envy for newer phones. Indeed I'm using CM11 by thomas and except the camera, all is working better than stock.
Sent from my Xperia Z using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry to say that 2 years is a long time, even for flagships like the XZ. All manufacturers rely on selling phones to get an income. Aftermarket support have been somewhat an bonus from the most popular devices as that don't render any money.
Looking to Samsung 2 years ago you have the SIII and the last update it will get is the last 4.3 (if you don't have the LTE version but that is another stry ).
I just keep my fingers crossed and hope for update but wouldn't be suprised if it's not released.

jpacho89 said:
We deserve it...
4.4.2 was an odd job, full of mistakes, lags and battery drains. So I expect further updates if Sony wants to make happy it's customers. We spent a lot of money in a flagship which is not even 2 years old.
Anyway, we have great developers here in XDA and outside, I hope they stay long time with this device because it is fantastic and has nothing to envy for newer phones. Indeed I'm using CM11 by thomas and except the camera, all is working better than stock.
Sent from my Xperia Z using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There arent much mistakes by Sony if u ask me.. To be fair, the actual 4.4.2 from Google itself was too buggy.. All bugs on XZ is from the actual OS.. Except for tiny glitches(Lags as u say) has been due to the patches Sony apply on the fw.. But to be fair, XZ 230 fw has been way better than Z2's 402 fw.. I have seen lot of users in Z2 saying 402 fw crashes a lot, very buggy.. And FYI, there are battery drains due to Google Play Services problem, which is Google's fault.. Not Sony's.. With the workarounds, i see a big improvement in battery life from 4.3.. If u want proof, u can check in battery stats thread last page..

Wimz3n said:
Sorry to say that 2 years is a long time, even for flagships like the XZ. All manufacturers rely on selling phones to get an income. Aftermarket support have been somewhat an bonus from the most popular devices as that don't render any money.
Looking to Samsung 2 years ago you have the SIII and the last update it will get is the last 4.3 (if you don't have the LTE version but that is another stry ).
I just keep my fingers crossed and hope for update but wouldn't be suprised if it's not released.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oviously manufacturers are looking for an income. But 600€ phone deserves at least 2 years software support or more, and there is not that period from the launch of the device to the launch of android 4.4.4.
And it's not very difficult for a company to make an update, even some developers here have made more contributions than sony... The money will render when we need to update our device because it is broken (not very difficult in our case if it drops lol) or because there have been big improvements in the phones, not because they don't update the software or they had made a buggy version. A happy customer is very significant for future sales. Otherwise he will buy in another company.
And refering to SIII, we all know samsung update policies: not enough RAM, bla bla bla...
Never more policarbonate and lagwiz.
Sent from my Xperia Z using XDA Free mobile app

That will be nice.. http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/558675/20140710/android-4-kitkat-live-sony-xperia-z1.htm#.U769HqD8Im8

https://optus.intelliresponse.com/?...question=Mobile phone/tablet's OS updates#4.0
http://www.xperiablog.net/2014/07/1...-hints-at-android-4-4-4-release-for-xperia-z/

RyomaEchizen said:
https://optus.intelliresponse.com/?...question=Mobile phone/tablet's OS updates#4.0
http://www.xperiablog.net/2014/07/1...-hints-at-android-4-4-4-release-for-xperia-z/
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you should ask sony instead of olivia

Pablosch23 said:
you should ask sony instead of olivia
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Wow! Really?
Olivia is Optus (An Australian carrier). Read

RyomaEchizen said:
Wow! Really?
Olivia is Optus (An Australian carrier). Read
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damn u can't take a joke ? I know is a carrier, is what the pic says

android l is more ... to wait

Pablosch23 said:
you should ask sony instead of olivia
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Hi Mate,
So does this mean we get a direct update to 4.4.4 without first upgrading to 4.4.3...?!
Thats cool..,
Cheers,
Max

Source

theanelfro said:
Source
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I'm sure that website just has someone faking those "leaked" update schedules.
The last time they posted one, it wasn't accurate.

kingvortex said:
I'm sure that website just has someone faking those "leaked" update schedules.
The last time they posted one, it wasn't accurate.
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Who knows, let's all hope its true and see what SONY do.

¿Good News?
http://community.vodafone.com.au/t5...date-Weekly-Wrap-21st-August-2014/ba-p/357053

RyomaEchizen said:
¿Good News?
http://community.vodafone.com.au/t5...date-Weekly-Wrap-21st-August-2014/ba-p/357053
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These update schedules from Vodafone AU are usually pretty accurate and the source is reliable so it seems like good news but doesn't list 4.4.2 or 4.4.4 so there's no real way to be sure which version it is. Gave thanks to the post though!

wright_ac said:
These update schedules from Vodafone AU are usually pretty accurate and the source is reliable so it seems like good news but doesn't list 4.4.2 or 4.4.4 so there's no real way to be sure which version it is. Gave thanks to the post though!
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We have already 4.4.2 on our XZ, and i think its 4.4.4 so far i know !