AT&T's response to my BBB complaint... "they aren't capping upload speeds"..yea right
On March 09, 2011, the business provided the following information:
AT&T Mobility Tele: 952.703.4316
Regulatory Response Team Fax: 952.703.2307
AGENCY'S NAME:
Better Business Bureau of Metropolitan
Texas COMPANY'S NAME:
AT&T
ADDRESS:
1600 Pacific Ave Suite 2800
Dallas TX 75201 ADDRESS:
Office of the President
2325 N. University
Lubbock, TX 79415
AGENCY REP: N/A COMPLAINANT'S NAME:
Keith Geissler
AGENCY'S FILE NO.:
91172869 COMPANY'S FILE NO.:
CM20110302_18007584
AT&T Mobility (AT&T) received the above-referenced customer complaint and appreciates the opportunity to respond. Specifically, Keith Geissler complains that the recently released Motorola Atrix does not offer speeds anywhere near what advertised speeds claim. He is requesting activation of 4G services and removal of the cap on the Motorola Atrix services.
Account research regarding this complaint shows that AT&T is focused on delivering a wide choice of solutions and the best possible Smartphone experience to our customers. Be assured that AT&T has not "capped" the upload speeds on the ATRIX. The ATRIX is a HSUPA-capable device, and we currently are performing the testing and preparations necessary to ensure that, when we turn this feature on, you will continue to have a world class experience.
We ask that you please keep in mind; software is only one of many factors that can affect speeds experienced. Factors such as location, time of day, network capacity and facilities, can have an impact as well. Again, in order to ensure the best possible customer experience services will become available once testing has been completed.
AT&T sincerely regrets any inconvenience this issue may have caused. Please feel free to contact me directly at 952-703-4316 if you have any additional questions or concerns in this matter.
Name: Sheila Utech, Customer Appeals Manager, Executive Response
You must not have read the letter very well, now did you?
The ATRIX is a HSUPA-capable device
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when we turn this feature on, you will continue to have a world class experience.
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Thing is...I live in Dallas where 4G is "suppose" to be turned on.
It is not capped but we will turn it on ...SMH
I think the best idea would be to play the waiting game. Perhaps see what happens when they're finally done with the backhaul?
kgeissler said:
Thing is...I live in Dallas where 4G is "suppose" to be turned on.
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Understood. However, it has been heavily discussed that HSUPA is infact DISABLED on the device its self. Hence their response.
HSPA+ is SHOWN on the device as active in all markets, however that is due to tower upgrades to reflect that... it does not mean you have HSPA+ yet if the back haul has not been upgraded to support the speeds.
PixoNova said:
I think the best idea would be to play the waiting game. Perhaps see what happens when they're finally done with the backhaul?
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That is likely the case. Download speeds are not capped on the phone, only limited to what the backhaul to the tower in your area can support.
That said, HSUPA is in fact disabled, so you WILL NOT see speeds above 300k/s until they enable it with a firmware upgrade (or a dev here on xda fixes it )
A read of the sentence following the one you highlighted in bold indicates AT&T admits that HSUPA is not enabled yet. I'm hearing it will be enabled in June in 7 markets. A better question to AT&T might be why are they limiting access to existing HSPDA+ today, that testing has already been done.
Jim_R said:
A read of the sentence following the one you highlighted in bold indicates AT&T admits that HSUPA is not enabled yet. I'm hearing it will be enabled in June in 7 markets.
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The truth comes out... its good to know the BBB is good for something, as they couldnt just give a BS line in that response. Now we know they did infact disable it on purpose AND it will be activated.
I am still waiting on a letter from AT&T's office of the president...
it doesn't matter if you are living in a 4g zone, the fact is that the atrix won't do hsupa until an update for the phone gets released to enable it. at least they admitted that it's turned off
Op. How did you go about filling this complaint? Email? Or is there some link on the bbb site?
substance12 said:
Op. How did you go about filling this complaint? Email? Or is there some link on the bbb site?
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Went here: http://www.bbb.org/
Put in my zip code, and there was a link to "file a complaint". I just put all the information in and submitted it online.
I filed a BBB complaint with this, to clear their BS responses about 4G and backhaul upgrades, which has not a single iota to do with our issue:
Currently, AT&T is disabling HSUPA and high speed internet on all smartphones EXCEPT the iPhone 4. I understand 4G is not fully deployed, I'm still trying to get 3G speeds, but this is disabled on my 1-year-old Samsung Captivate, as well as the new Atrix 4G.
This has nothing to do with network upgrades, backhauls, or 4G. I'm simply trying to get 3G speeds as the iPhone 4 has with HSUPA. This was maliciously, and intentionally, disabled by AT&T on all non-Apple phones.
I can take my wife's iPhone 4, put it next to my Atrix or Captivate, run speeds tests, and the iPhone will be 2-4x faster. They are intentionally disabling HSUPA on Android phones, to preserve some notion of "upscale" on the iPhone 4, and this is fraudulent, and false advertising, as the specifications for both the Captivate and the Atrix say it has HSUPA, which is high-speed upload on 3G.
Again, this has NOTHING to do with 4G, or the network upgrades. I just want to get what I pay/paid for, and many of us are finding out that if you take a Captivate and experiment with the Bell Canada software for the modem, it enables the high-speed data, again NOT 4G, just like the iPhone 4, which is NOT a 4G device.
That experiment alone proves AT&T is deliberately and maliciously handicapping non-Apple smartphones.
I pay JUST AS MUCH every month for data as iPhone owners do, so it's not fair that they get 4 times the speed that I do, when the current 3G towers are more than capable of HSUPA.
Everyone should go to bbb.org and file a complaint and state specifically that the iPhone 4 works as HSUPA capable, the Atrix should as well since it is advertised as such.
Sharkonwheels said:
I filed a BBB complaint with this, to clear their BS responses about 4G and backhaul upgrades, which has not a single iota to do with our issue:
Currently, AT&T is disabling HSUPA and high speed internet on all smartphones EXCEPT the iPhone 4. I understand 4G is not fully deployed, I'm still trying to get 3G speeds, but this is disabled on my 1-year-old Samsung Captivate, as well as the new Atrix 4G.
This has nothing to do with network upgrades, backhauls, or 4G. I'm simply trying to get 3G speeds as the iPhone 4 has with HSUPA. This was maliciously, and intentionally, disabled by AT&T on all non-Apple phones.
I can take my wife's iPhone 4, put it next to my Atrix or Captivate, run speeds tests, and the iPhone will be 2-4x faster. They are intentionally disabling HSUPA on Android phones, to preserve some notion of "upscale" on the iPhone 4, and this is fraudulent, and false advertising, as the specifications for both the Captivate and the Atrix say it has HSUPA, which is high-speed upload on 3G.
Again, this has NOTHING to do with 4G, or the network upgrades. I just want to get what I pay/paid for, and many of us are finding out that if you take a Captivate and experiment with the Bell Canada software for the modem, it enables the high-speed data, again NOT 4G, just like the iPhone 4, which is NOT a 4G device.
That experiment alone proves AT&T is deliberately and maliciously handicapping non-Apple smartphones.
I pay JUST AS MUCH every month for data as iPhone owners do, so it's not fair that they get 4 times the speed that I do, when the current 3G towers are more than capable of HSUPA.
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I find it odd that AT&T is still sucking so hard on the teets of Apple. Apple was literally waiting for the day to leave AT&T and join other carriers. And through all the years I was with AT&T they gave me crap service because I had a smartphone that didn't start with an "i".
What they NEED to be doing is focusing MORE on us Android users like Verizon did with theirs while they didn't have the iPhone. Because eventually iPhone users are going to want better service (drop calls much?) and potentially migrate to Verizon. Then all AT&T will have left is bitter Android users waiting for their contracts to expire.
Thank God I bailed on AT&T. In a strange twist for me is that my download speeds on Sprint sometimes aren't as high as my upload o_0. No matter since I still get over 1500kbps both ways.
edit: Man this thread is on every major tech blog now
leadguy68 said:
Understood. However, it has been heavily discussed that HSUPA is infact DISABLED on the device its self. Hence their response.
HSPA+ is SHOWN on the device as active in all markets, however that is due to tower upgrades to reflect that... it does not mean you have HSPA+ yet if the back haul has not been upgraded to support the speeds.
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The fact "H+" is shown has nothing to do with towers or markets.
by looking through the framework images (shown below), they have completely replaced the 3G or H (without a Plus next to it) with an "H+" icon.
So it doesn't matter if you are on 3G, HSPA, or HSPA+, it will display "H+"
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
notice the lack or "3G" or "H"
Sharkonwheels said:
I filed a BBB complaint with this, to clear their BS responses about 4G and backhaul upgrades, which has not a single iota to do with our issue:
Currently, AT&T is disabling HSUPA and high speed internet on all smartphones EXCEPT the iPhone 4. I understand 4G is not fully deployed, I'm still trying to get 3G speeds, but this is disabled on my 1-year-old Samsung Captivate, as well as the new Atrix 4G.
This has nothing to do with network upgrades, backhauls, or 4G. I'm simply trying to get 3G speeds as the iPhone 4 has with HSUPA. This was maliciously, and intentionally, disabled by AT&T on all non-Apple phones.
I can take my wife's iPhone 4, put it next to my Atrix or Captivate, run speeds tests, and the iPhone will be 2-4x faster. They are intentionally disabling HSUPA on Android phones, to preserve some notion of "upscale" on the iPhone 4, and this is fraudulent, and false advertising, as the specifications for both the Captivate and the Atrix say it has HSUPA, which is high-speed upload on 3G.
Again, this has NOTHING to do with 4G, or the network upgrades. I just want to get what I pay/paid for, and many of us are finding out that if you take a Captivate and experiment with the Bell Canada software for the modem, it enables the high-speed data, again NOT 4G, just like the iPhone 4, which is NOT a 4G device.
That experiment alone proves AT&T is deliberately and maliciously handicapping non-Apple smartphones.
I pay JUST AS MUCH every month for data as iPhone owners do, so it's not fair that they get 4 times the speed that I do, when the current 3G towers are more than capable of HSUPA.
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This is great! Wish i would have had this earlier today when i filed my bbb complaint and called att to complain. Im gonna use your words next time i have this conveersation.
mburris said:
The fact "H+" is shown has nothing to do with towers or markets.
by looking through the framework images (shown below), they have completely replaced the 3G or H (without a Plus next to it) with an "H+" icon.
So it doesn't matter if you are on 3G, HSPA, or HSPA+, it will display "H+"
notice the lack or "3G" or "H"
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Wow that is unethical! So we will never know the truth running att/moto firmware!?
Somewhat depressing since it was more of a case of..oops we got caught what can we tell them now. Now we all get to wonder how long are they going to make us wait till we can get this update that they are "testing".. I certainly hope it is soon since it is depressing that the 4g phone is slower than now 4g branded devices.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
I live between Decatur & Hartselle and dropped several calls yesterday, after calling att I was transfered to 2nd tear support who told me most likely I was experiencing dropped calls because the 3 towers surrounding me are being worked on for "4G". I asked specifically if she meant HSUPA+ and she confirmed the towers are being upgraded to HSUPA+. Previously I had spoken with att's Jessica Wilson in the office of the president, most of you already know att's office of the president was much less than helpful in obtaining info on HSUPA+. So I just wanted to share the info I had received, and I know it is different in every area but: Att is upgrading the three towers in the Hartselle/Decatur AL area to support HSUPA+, one tower will be completed on 7/1 and the other two on 7/15. Of course you can never really trust what an att person tells you.. but this seems more like the truth than anything else I have previously been told.
I think you mean HSPA+.
HSUPA is blocked on your phone by AT&T, and will be unlocked by a software OTA supposedly this month. The current AT&T 3G network fully supports HSUPA already. If you had an unlocked Inspire/Captivate or iPhone, you already have HSUPA.
Divinedark said:
I think you mean HSPA+.
HSUPA is blocked on your phone by AT&T, and will be unlocked by a software OTA supposedly this month. The current AT&T 3G network fully supports HSUPA already. If you had an unlocked Inspire/Captivate or iPhone, you already have HSUPA.
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Yes your right! I meant HSPA+, sorry. But I assume that HSUPA+ and HSDPA+ are just the Ups and Downs of HSPA+.? Anyways.. like the op says this is just information regarding the three TOWERS in my area and is less valuable info for anybody that doesn't live in the Dec/Hart AL area. Or you could deduct that rural areas will start to see the network upgrades this summer. Just wanted to share what I learned because it took me a month and I talked to several att people before about HSPA+ and was never given any real info.
My cm7 Captivate does have HSPA+ enabled, but until these towers are working I cannot enjoy it. So for everybody that doesnt live in major cities, I would say the tower upgrades are just as or more important than the phone upgrades. I have joined the community in filing a bbb complaint and signing groubles and all the other things this community has been trying to get att to enable the feature, for those in major cities that have the towers. However, att/moto could enable HSPA+ today and it would be completely useless to me until these tower upgrades are complete.
If Decatur, AL in the back of beyond is being upgraded that soon.............means the rest of us in the civilized world will have it sooner!
On a more serious note.............I wouldn't believe anything an AT&T rep told me! When it goes live, we will know...........until then..........I believe the community here at XDA knows more than AT&T employees!
CaelanT said:
If Decatur, AL in the back of beyond is being upgraded that soon.............means the rest of us in the civilized world will have it sooner!
On a more serious note.............I wouldn't believe anything an AT&T rep told me! When it goes live, we will know...........until then..........I believe the community here at XDA knows more than AT&T employees!
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Right you civilized people in boston might be getting upgraded towers sooner than July. Us hillbillys just seen are first lectronic thang, its shiny and makes loud noises.
Agreed when it goes live we will know....until then........Can you provide me with a link to XDAs thread on tower upgrade eta?
I called AT&T today to ask about the HSUPA update. (Dial 611) And after being put on hold a few times, they said that they would have a manager call me back. Around 8:30, I got a voicemail (no call) from the manager, but when I returned her phone call, I spoke with a woman who offered me a $25 courtesy credit. I pressed her on the update and she swore up and down that it would be released in April, although she declined to give me that in writing. While AT&T has very little credibility with me, I wasn't too proud to accept $25. I recommend making the call.
I also called att and asked about hsupa update (so called 4g speed). Thought I was not offered any credit, i was told that there is going to be an update this month.
I also asked about unlock code, rep said, officially att will provice unlock code in dec 11
sam_t610 said:
I also called att and asked about hsupa update (so called 4g speed). Thought I was not offered any credit, i was told that there is going to be an update this month.
Hsupa does not mean 4g speeds! Do some research people....i cant wait till after the update for hsupa and everyone is complaining that they dont notice a difference in data speeds.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
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Smallsmx3 said:
Hsupa does not mean 4g speeds! Do some research people....i cant wait till after the update for hsupa and everyone is complaining that they dont notice a difference in data speeds.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
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How would we not notice a difference in data speeds after HSUPA? The update will enable it on the phone. Speeds will increase. Period.
Care to explain?
wirednix said:
How would we not notice a difference in data speeds after HSUPA? The update will enable it on the phone. Speeds will increase. Period.
Care to explain?
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I think he is referring to the fact that the update will simply increase upload speeds, while dl speed will remain unchanged, which does not have a huge impact on normal use...unless you are seeding torrents via your cell data plan I suppose.
sam_t610 said:
I also asked about unlock code, rep said, officially att will provice unlock code in dec 11
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Just wondering since I've never been to the states and I don't know about AT&T's history and policies.
Does that mean AT&T and Motorola has a kind of an agreement that unlock codes will not be given to users until a certain time passes? for exclusivity I mean.
I'm asking that because I wondered if the locked bootloader is also within the security package Motorola has provided to AT&T and maybe after that date Motorola can officially release the code.
Smallsmx3 said:
sam_t610 said:
I also called att and asked about hsupa update (so called 4g speed). Thought I was not offered any credit, i was told that there is going to be an update this month.
Hsupa does not mean 4g speeds! Do some research people....i cant wait till after the update for hsupa and everyone is complaining that they dont notice a difference in data speeds.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
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Pretty sure he knows that its not actually 4g, or he wouldnt have said "so called 4g" but thats what att calls it, so get off your high horse and read before you flame someone.
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wirednix said:
How would we not notice a difference in data speeds after HSUPA? The update will enable it on the phone. Speeds will increase. Period.
Care to explain?
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Honestly the change to your upload is not super notable unless you are sending mms. I have hsupa on this inspire and thats about the only time I see a difference.
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA Premium App
daveop said:
Honestly the change to your upload is not super notable unless you are sending mms. I have hsupa on this inspire and thats about the only time I see a difference.
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA Premium App
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Isn't HSUPA still disabled on the Inspire?
decoyd said:
Isn't HSUPA still disabled on the Inspire?
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Easily remedied on the inspire.
Smallsmx3 said:
Hsupa does not mean 4g speeds! Do some research people...
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This is by no means a defense of AT&T's rather liberal definition of "4G," but if you want some research, this is what I came across while I was on hold. So if you're interested in having more than vague internet rumors to support your claims that AT&T isn't living up to its end of the bargin, here you go:
4G has no official definition.
ITU on 4G: http://www.itu.int/net/pressoffice/press_releases/2010/48.aspx
4G Americas on HSPA:
http://www.4gamericas.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=page§ionid=247
I think the above link is actually quite damning of AT&T's actions with respect to disabling HSUPA on the Atrix. The group defines an HSPA network as one that is using both HSDPA and HSUPA (aka E-DCH) simultaneously. While 4G Americas is not a standards organization, they are a powerful telecom industry lobbying organization of which AT&T is an influential member. (see http://www.4gamericas.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=page§ionid=160)
3GPP on HSPA+:
http://www.3gpp.org/HSPA
While HSPA+ is mentioned on the above linked 3GPP webpage, there is little mention of HSPA+ by name in the technological specifications --the specifications deal mostly with the constituent technologies that make up HSPA+. When HSPA+ is mentioned, from what I've read, it's mentioned as Evolved HSPA or something similar. HSDPA is frequently mentioned as it has been in the pipleline since Release 5, and HSUPA is only mentioned by this moniker in a few places --it is most commonly referred to as E-DCH or Enhanced Uplink.
I would love to see an official 3GPP release that explicitly says "For a network to qualify as an HSPA+ network, ..." but I haven't found something that helpful. The standard is a bit of a disaster because: (1) it's HUGE with over a decade of revisions, and (2) a large number of standards have been withdrawn. Many technical specifications that have not been withdrawn will mention a technology that is not being defined and reference a withdrawn specification. I'm not sure what that means for the non-withdrawn specifications.
Here are a few interesting things that I was able to pull up from the 3GPP site. Unfortunately, the specifications use a lot of "shoulds" and "mays."
From 3GPP TR 25.999 version 7.1.0 Release 7 (HSPA evolution Technical Report) "Evolved HSPA should be able to operate as a packet-only network based on utilization of the high speed data channels only (HS-DSCH, E-DCH and associated channels)."
If this is stating that an HSPA+ network must use HSUPA and HSDPA, clearly AT&T fails. Even though HSUPA is running concurrently on the network, as Atrix users can't use it, claiming the network satisfies the HSUPA requirement would be a little like your cable company claiming they provide you HBO because your neighbor has it.
Again, from the same document: "Evolved HSPA protocol architecture shall have minimum impact on [user equipment] especially in terms of complexity, to allow for easy introduction."
I think a compelling argument can be made that the loss of HSUPA functionality on the Atrix has caused problems with the Atrix working on foreign data networks. The Atrix should be able to operate on foreign HSPA+networks that are frequency-compatible, but the burden of proof is on AT&T to show that their modifications don't interfere with basic usage of the Atrix on other HSPA+ networks.
From 3GPP TS 25.319 version 7.8.0 Release 7 (Enhanced Uplink Technical Report) "The Enhanced Uplink feature shall enable to achieve[sic] significant improvements in overall system performance when operated together with HSDPA. Emphasis shall be given on the potential impact the new feature may have on the downlink capacity."
By forcing the uplink to travel on a separate network, not only has AT&T demolished the uplink speeds, downlink performance has suffered, too. I've seen speculation that the latency issues can, in part, be attributed to the fact that the uplink and downlink packets are out of sync, causing a lot of unnecessary data retransmission; although, I can't cite anything definitive to prove this.
From 25.999 "[The UTRAN architecture] should reduce user plane latency to legacy (R5,6 & 7) & beyond R7 terminals" and "reduce control plane latency to beyond R7 terminals and, if low complexity cost effective means can be
found, also to legacy terminals."
While only considering latency in one direction, on one fragment of the network, AT&T may have met these requirements, but in aggregate, latency has jumped by an order of magnitude. In 25.999, there is a table of target ping latencies, with HSPA+ being listed at <50ms. AT&T's solution is nowhere near that level of performance.
There is a lot of information in 25.999 regarding the deployment of an HSPA+ network into an existing HSPA network, but without details of how AT&T has structured their upgrade, there is little one can glean from this. Although, it is clear that HSPA networks are considered as separate entities from HSPA+ networks. For example, from 25.999:
"The potential HSPA Architecture evolution will be defined independently from enhancements in the HSPA radio interface (both layer 1 and radio protocols). Thus, the traditional UTRAN interfaces (Iu, Iur and Iub) shall be enhanced in order to support the features included in the evolved HSPA radio interface. However this does not preclude the possibility to introduce new features in the HSPA radio interface, in case they are beneficial mainly to one of the
architectures."
Here they are specifying that the HSPA standard will be updated so that the interfaces (Iu, Iub, Iur) between the various sections of the network can be shared by HSPA and HSPA+ networks. But its clear that HSPA networks are distinct from HSPA+ networks.
You can find these documents here: http://www.3gpp.org/Specification-Numbering
You have to submit your email address to download the documents, but it is very easy.
Courtesy credit
I got 25 Bucks credit too!!!
Jeez some people are so hard up for $25 that they'd jump through hoops on the phone with AT&T?
BTW I notice HSUPA when I take a photo and e-mail it, which I do fairly often. With ~2mbps upload it is about 10 seconds per pic, with 5x slower speed well you wouldn't want to be sending more than one at almost a minute each.
So now that the front end radio speeds are 50mb/s, we'll hit our 2gbit limit in like 1 hour vs 20 days - yet make a very impressive speedtest. Yawn. I'm sorry, guys. This circa-1980 2GB limit thing has just got to go. ATT and Ver blames it on their lack of backhaul capacity (towers to internet). Perhaps their inability to police full time tethering. Perhaps a cash rich executive bureaucracy that rivals the gov't. Remember, they're STILL the phone company.
Even if you have unlimited, they'll sniff packets and start the clock on you anyway. "No way you can use more than 2GB of local phone-only data if you're not tethering" they cry. Even the tethering plan is a limited, overly complex structured rate plan also. For those of you that've figured a way around these lobbyist-inspired rate plans then more power to you. But for the other 99% of us, a 2mb radio will just have to do.
Believe me, Ver and ATT are lawyering-up as we speak to deal with the upcoming onslaught from you LTE heathens.
In any event, why bother with LTE?
sigh
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buckwheat.phd said:
Even if you have unlimited, they'll sniff packets and start the clock on you anyway. "No way you can use more than 2GB of local phone-only data if you're not tethering" they cry. Even the tethering plan is a limited, overly complex structured rate plan also. For those of you that've figured a way around these lobbyist-inspired rate plans then more power to you. But for the other 99% of us, a 2mb radio will just have to do.
Believe me, Ver and ATT are lawyering-up as we speak to deal with the upcoming onslaught from you LTE heathens.
In any event, why bother with LTE?
sigh
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I've had unlimited LTE on Verizon since March and still seeing 60mbps download speeds. No throttling. Just purchased first AT&T LTE smartphone SGS2 LTE Skyrocket, grandfathering unlimited data into my LTE device. Can't wait to test LTE here in NYC.
Internet experience is all I'm doing on my phone and the last thing that I want is to crawl.
LTE all the way!