Okay before anyone starts to flame or start saying "Oh God" to the screen, this isnt the typical "When are we going to get Android to boot from HD2" question.
I know we all boot Android from our SDCard, but I went looking to see if there was any google pages on why the sd card? Being that we have an HD2 and it has alot of space (My phone says 768mb free internal storage), would it slow Android and the experience down if we had the "Android" folder copied to our phone instead? I know currently it probably wouldnt work, but being that the avg Android folder is 230mb to 260mb thats more then enough space to put the folder in, and possibly change maybe the daily useage or app installations onto the sdcard. If this was just a general rule of thumb that it was decided to be put on an sdcard across the board because not all phone had the room then is there no way to change that now since most phones are coming out to have larger internal space opposed to older ones?
And again, would it be slower to run this way or not?
AngelDeath said:
Okay before anyone starts to flame or start saying "Oh God" to the screen, this isnt the typical "When are we going to get Android to boot from HD2" question.
I know we all boot Android from our SDCard, but I went looking to see if there was any google pages on why the sd card? Being that we have an HD2 and it has alot of space (My phone says 768mb free internal storage), would it slow Android and the experience down if we had the "Android" folder copied to our phone instead? I know currently it probably wouldnt work, but being that the avg Android folder is 230mb to 260mb thats more then enough space to put the folder in, and possibly change maybe the daily useage or app installations onto the sdcard. If this was just a general rule of thumb that it was decided to be put on an sdcard across the board because not all phone had the room then is there no way to change that now since most phones are coming out to have larger internal space opposed to older ones?
And again, would it be slower to run this way or not?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hi
Haret cannot currently read from NAND, its code reads and searches for Data IMG and Rootfs and kernal in SD ONLY .....
hence NAND is so very different from HARET.
well Magldr is what would do the trick
I'm assuming your talking about nand as to boot from the phone like as if you are powering it up and windows loads, Im not actually talking about that. I'm actually talking about how it currently loads, except, instead of placing the Android folder on the SDCard and running clrcad and haret, instead placing the folder into the root directory of the phone and running clrcad and haret from there, same exact way we are running it now, except changing the location of the folder from card to phone.
AngelDeath said:
I'm assuming your talking about nand as to boot from the phone like as if you are powering it up and windows loads, Im not actually talking about that. I'm actually talking about how it currently loads, except, instead of placing the Android folder on the SDCard and running clrcad and haret, instead placing the folder into the root directory of the phone and running clrcad and haret from there, same exact way we are running it now, except changing the location of the folder from card to phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hi
Well firstly NAND does not necessarly mean booting from start, NAND= Internal memory, in fact cotulla's MAGLDR can boot android of the SD straight from power up whilst having WIN MO on NAND.
So to answer your question again,
HARET CANNOT READ NAND (INTERNAL MEMORY), it always looks for SD for everything , in some cases RAM, as in the new RAM builds that are popping up by devs.
the code for HARET cannot handle NAND at the moment and i dont thing it will ever be implemented.
I'm neither a dev or a hacker, this is just what i ahve understood from reading, i'm open to corrections,
best regds
I have to admit, this idea is very cool.. If haret could "see" the nand memory after WinMo is loaded, then all you need is a WinMo rom stripped down to the maximum and Android folder burned in it (at least the system part). if if if i am not sure, if its technicaly impossible for haret to see the nand memory after booting WinMo or if its impossible at all..
greg17477 said:
I have to admit, this idea is very cool.. If haret could "see" the nand memory after WinMo is loaded, then all you need is a WinMo rom stripped down to the maximum and Android folder burned in it (at least the system part). if if if i am not sure, if its technicaly impossible for haret to see the nand memory after booting WinMo or if its impossible at all..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
guys remeber HARET is a bootloader for LINUX, its crazy enough its helping us boot android from SD, I think the possible reason HARET is not designed for reading NAND is the potential damage it could do to SPL leading to a BRICK, now we dont want a brick do we ?
mally2 said:
guys remeber HARET is a bootloader for LINUX, its crazy enough its helping us boot android from SD, I think the possible reason HARET is not designed for reading NAND is the potential damage it could do to SPL leading to a BRICK, now we dont want a brick do we ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
never say never and expect the unexpected, thats what life teached me
phone wouldnt get bricked if you just read nand, but writing into it could do damage, i agree on this.
OK, so when I first read the OP, I thought he meant booting Haret from the phone's internal storage memory, not NAND.
Though the NAND Haret idea is really not bad, I couldn't see it corrupting the bootloader as long as it behaves the same way as it does from the sd. I mean, the phone is already booted WinMo, so HaRet and Android have no need to touch the bootloader, just as when running from sd. It would be more or less a startup.txt change/ rel_path = NAND/Android (not exact, but general idea). Seems alot different to me from MAGLDR, maybe there is just confusion about this
But if the NAND idea is not workable, wouldn't it be possible to run HaRet Android from the phone's internal storage memory, yielding a performance speed increase and less wear on the sd?
Clearly we couldn't do like I have now, a ton of builds with exceller, all running from internal storage, obviously we don't have 16gb internal. But what about just loading our daily driver from internal, and testing/less commonly builds from sd?
I like the idea because it could mean less wear on the sd, and possibly performance increase
BTW 300th post
Thats exactly what I meant, once WinMo is loaded, we normally go into the sd card thru file explorer and then go to android and then run clrcad and haret, winMo is already loaded and doesnt corrupt winmo, but if we could run the core system from the phones storage space, (Putting the android folder into the main directory, and then running clrcad and haret, this way the core system would load and any user installable files would just end up on the storage card, cause obviously we wouldnt be able to load all our apks into the phone (Some might, others like us go nuts).
But the concept is not a bad one, especially if there was a way when installing the apk's it asked for the location to add.
AngelDeath said:
Thats exactly what I meant, once WinMo is loaded, we normally go into the sd card thru file explorer and then go to android and then run clrcad and haret, winMo is already loaded and doesnt corrupt winmo, but if we could run the core system from the phones storage space, (Putting the android folder into the main directory, and then running clrcad and haret, this way the core system would load and any user installable files would just end up on the storage card, cause obviously we wouldnt be able to load all our apks into the phone (Some might, others like us go nuts).
But the concept is not a bad one, especially if there was a way when installing the apk's it asked for the location to add.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would say that if HaRet was pointed to the correct place correspondingly, either NAND or storage would work as I previously mentioned. I am unsure about any performance gains to be had, but it would surely save on sd card wear.
People say that going from NAND would corrupt bootloader, but since WM is already booted using HaRet, there is no reason that the bootloader is touched, even if it is all stored to NAND. MagLDR is different, that is going for a cold-boot of Android, no WM involved at all. HaRet and MAGLDR work different and I think that if Haret was made to look for /Android in NAND, it could work just the same as if off of sdcard.
And booting from the phone's storage memory would be even safer, as no far-fetched idea of HaRet corrupting the bootloader is even conceivable, as NAND would never even be touched at all.
I honestly believe though that if a version of Haret was released that looked to NAND memory for /Android, that WM chefs could bake lite version WM ROMs with popular Android builds already built into NAND, maybe in the \Windows directory. The chef could even cook in a modified version of Exceller's Android loader which would look to \Windows for the Android folder.
Since Android development is so far along, and there are so many builds that are 100% or near 100% stable, I do think that going this route is a viable option, I mean there are already WM builds that will install an Android build to the sd card all by themselves after you boot them up the first time. This seems a natural progression of that concept to me.
Maybe somebody could contact Netripper, and ask him more about this idea, and see if he would be kind enough to build a HaRet version to look to NaND memory, and another to look to internal storage space, the rest could be done by the end user, as there are WM kitchens available, and most ppl here could make a .cab to install \Android to internal.
That's my $0.02
huggs said:
I would say that if HaRet was pointed to the correct place correspondingly, either NAND or storage would work as I previously mentioned. I am unsure about any performance gains to be had, but it would surely save on sd card wear.
People say that going from NAND would corrupt bootloader, but since WM is already booted using HaRet, there is no reason that the bootloader is touched, even if it is all stored to NAND. MagLDR is different, that is going for a cold-boot of Android, no WM involved at all. HaRet and MAGLDR work different and I think that if Haret was made to look for /Android in NAND, it could work just the same as if off of sdcard.
And booting from the phone's storage memory would be even safer, as no far-fetched idea of HaRet corrupting the bootloader is even conceivable, as NAND would never even be touched at all.
I honestly believe though that if a version of Haret was released that looked to NAND memory for /Android, that WM chefs could bake lite version WM ROMs with popular Android builds already built into NAND, maybe in the \Windows directory. The chef could even cook in a modified version of Exceller's Android loader which would look to \Windows for the Android folder.
Since Android development is so far along, and there are so many builds that are 100% or near 100% stable, I do think that going this route is a viable option, I mean there are already WM builds that will install an Android build to the sd card all by themselves after you boot them up the first time. This seems a natural progression of that concept to me.
Maybe somebody could contact Netripper, and ask him more about this idea, and see if he would be kind enough to build a HaRet version to look to NaND memory, and another to look to internal storage space, the rest could be done by the end user, as there are WM kitchens available, and most ppl here could make a .cab to install \Android to internal.
That's my $0.02
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very possible,
Haret needs to be modified for that,
not sure who can do it.
Guys as far as i know, on hd2 is nand memory the same as internal phone memory.There is no built in sd card. I am not 100% sure, but there is 512mb nand memory (internal memory). I mean, we install winmo roms into the nand. So if your winmo rom is about 200mb, you will be left with soemthing like 300mb internal phone memory. Correct me, if i am wrong..
cheers
greg17477 said:
Guys as far as i know, on hd2 is nand memory the same as internal phone memory.There is no built in sd card. I am not 100% sure, but there is 512mb nand memory (internal memory). I mean, we install winmo roms into the nand. So if your winmo rom is about 200mb, you will be left with soemthing like 300mb internal phone memory. Correct me, if i am wrong..
cheers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
spot on
NAND = Internal memory
greg17477 said:
Guys as far as i know, on hd2 is nand memory the same as internal phone memory.There is no built in sd card. I am not 100% sure, but there is 512mb nand memory (internal memory). I mean, we install winmo roms into the nand. So if your winmo rom is about 200mb, you will be left with soemthing like 300mb internal phone memory. Correct me, if i am wrong..
cheers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well true except the TMOUS, which is 1024 mb, so it should be plenty then to run Android this way right?
Even with just 300 left after WM ROM, Android could still be done conservatively, without much apps installed, or with some kind of a2sd functionality, Froyo has inbuilt app to sd functionality, albeit not as good as a2sd ext2 or ext3 setup.
Guys I think you are missing the point, If this was possible, viable or worth it, it would have probably already been tried and tested and released along time ago.
The fact that this hasnt been done already tells me that its been thought about and rejected for good reason.
PS. NAND ..IS.. Internal memory guys so the running loading of kernel and files from internel memory instead of nand is a moot point.
Here's a question for you guys thinking it *could* be possible to put Android on internal storage(NOT NAND) instead of SD...
What do you think will happen after your device creates the data.img and tries to place it in the Android folder on Internal Storage? I for one think my device(1024 TMOUS Leo) would run out of memory and throw error after error about internal storage being critically low until I did something about it.
To top it off, what about the 100 some odd folders that Android creates on the SD card now? Where are you going to put all of that on internal storage?
To sum it all up folks, until we're running from nand and have dedicated internal storage(W/O WM), it's not likely to EVER happen due to sheer lack of space, even if haret was reprogrammed to allow booting from internal storage.
dharvey4651 said:
Here's a question for you guys thinking it *could* be possible to put Android on internal storage(NOT NAND) instead of SD...
What do you think will happen after your device creates the data.img and tries to place it in the Android folder on Internal Storage? I for one think my device(1024 TMOUS Leo) would run out of memory and throw error after error about internal storage being critically low until I did something about it.
To top it off, what about the 100 some odd folders that Android creates on the SD card now? Where are you going to put all of that on internal storage?
To sum it all up folks, until we're running from nand and have dedicated internal storage(W/O WM), it's not likely to EVER happen due to sheer lack of space, even if haret was reprogrammed to allow booting from internal storage.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hmmm,
well in that case, kernel could be programed to create Data IMG on SD, if you have been following the Rhodium Nand Project , you will see what i mean, a few components are on NAND and a few on SD
dharvey4651 said:
Here's a question for you guys thinking it *could* be possible to put Android on internal storage(NOT NAND) instead of SD...
What do you think will happen after your device creates the data.img and tries to place it in the Android folder on Internal Storage? I for one think my device(1024 TMOUS Leo) would run out of memory and throw error after error about internal storage being critically low until I did something about it.
To top it off, what about the 100 some odd folders that Android creates on the SD card now? Where are you going to put all of that on internal storage?
To sum it all up folks, until we're running from nand and have dedicated internal storage(W/O WM), it's not likely to EVER happen due to sheer lack of space, even if haret was reprogrammed to allow booting from internal storage.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its not about putting the whole Android folder into nand, but for example only the system partition, just like in the RAM builds. All data and user stuff goes to sd.
Btw what do you mean by "...*could* be possible to put Android on internal storage(NOT NAND)." ? nand is the internal storage (memory). Or you guys are using different terms do you mean by "nand" the reseverd space where roms are stored and by "internal storage" the free space left (still in nand)?
TheATHEiST said:
Guys I think you are missing the point, If this was possible, viable or worth it, it would have probably already been tried and tested and released along time ago.
The fact that this hasnt been done already tells me that its been thought about and rejected for good reason.
PS. NAND ..IS.. Internal memory guys so the running loading of kernel and files from internel memory instead of nand is a moot point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually your part right, it was tested and released in the initial phases of the Rapheal (aka Fuze) and ran smoothly from what I read, yes there were hiccups, but that was due to the build being still in the alpha stages.
dharvey4651 said:
Here's a question for you guys thinking it *could* be possible to put Android on internal storage(NOT NAND) instead of SD...
What do you think will happen after your device creates the data.img and tries to place it in the Android folder on Internal Storage? I for one think my device(1024 TMOUS Leo) would run out of memory and throw error after error about internal storage being critically low until I did something about it.
To top it off, what about the 100 some odd folders that Android creates on the SD card now? Where are you going to put all of that on internal storage?
To sum it all up folks, until we're running from nand and have dedicated internal storage(W/O WM), it's not likely to EVER happen due to sheer lack of space, even if haret was reprogrammed to allow booting from internal storage.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is where your part wrong as well. if you use a pre-set data.img file, yes for the most part you cant use anything larger then possibly 512mb on a TMous, 256 on others, definitely could not use the 1gb img file thats for sure, but the other part of this your missing is that if you dont put a pre-set data.img file, during the initial loading of android, android will create the file itself, and IF I am right the file will be sort of dynamic, dynamic in the sense it will expand as needed, I seriously doubt it shrinks. And on top of this you would then use the function a2sd, which in then would install your apk's to sd card. As of right now how much bigger is your 1gb data.img file that everyone added to their SDCards? Bet still the same size.
mally2 said:
hmmm,
well in that case, kernel could be programed to create Data IMG on SD, if you have been following the Rhodium Nand Project , you will see what i mean, a few components are on NAND and a few on SD
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually after doing some reading, neither the kernel (if I read correctly) nor is haret.exe the cause of pointing the boot location. I did some searching (Mind you I am NOT a LINUX person), but reading some of the files, I am guessing that the key file which controls the loading of Android, is located in the "init" file in the rootfs.img file. I mounted this file in windows to look thru it and view files, and that file seems to have a major role in it, how it works I dont know yet.
To All, please I am not trying to cause a stir here, I am merely looking at possibilities, and unfortunately I cant test them out since I dont have a spare SDCard as of yet (Will ina couple of days, 32GB SDCard for $40, woohoo), and then I have nothing to loose to try, cant brick the phone, since winmo is the default loading OS anyway. One of the reason it might not have been put on the phone as I said, could be speed, I dont know how much faster internal phone storage would be opposed to sd, but another reason why could be cause then the installation would put folders on the root file system of the stroage card and make it messy. Also alot of people constantly flash new builds, this would also hamper your android install being on the phones storage. And remember our normal HD2 roms are between 225 and 250mb stock or custom, where lite versions or stripped down version would be considered better for taking up less space.
One thing to keep note, during all this, I have an HTC Aria (Liberty) as well that I just recently got as an upgrade to one of my ATT lines, and I checked the internal storage of that phone, its stock with ATT's build of Android, and it has ONLY 168mb of storage available, and it came with a 2gb sd card. Now think about that when saying that the files would get to big, obviously the HTC Aria doesnt have anywhere near the capacity of the HD2.
And again to anyone else, let's be clear, yes the phones storage is a NAND, but just to make clear, we aren't talking about doing a cold boot of android, I know how sometimes that can get confusing.
Sorry guys, yes internal storage is NAND memory, the reason I drew a distinction was to make a distinction between loading from internal storage and ROM space. I only meant to illustrate the difference between the two and demonstrate my opinion that both are possible. I think with further investigation and testing, advantages of booting this way will begin to emerge. For example we will be able to remove the sd card while Android runs, not a great benifit, but you get the idea. But yeah, I should have used the term 'ROM Space' instead of NAND, I only meant to show difference between the 2 places to boot from.
Sorry if i caused any confusion.
Sent from my... whatever
Hi DFT and all devs,
I very appreciate your work that done on Android and WP7.
Our HD2 can run both best OS in NAND, but not have choose in hard way for switching.
Today I have an idea for you all as show in my attachment.
The way I think is like we do the backup image like ghost file in Windows.
If our HD2 can create backup NAND file and rewirte by itself, I think it may switch over between WP7 and Android in NAND within 10 minutes without desktop.
That's just my idea, I know there is a lot of think to do, if you interest on it.
I'll wait for that dream.
Thanks for all contribution.
Great works!
you dont actually have that much space unless you have the tmo version. also, you gotta reformat the sd card every time because windows 7 does some weird striping data thing.
So.. you can use different partitions on SD-card. If it possible backup android data on SD card, in same method possible backup WP7 data on it. like CWM working...we can in came time backup different android builds. It's just ideas.
untrueparadox said:
you dont actually have that much space unless you have the tmo version. also, you gotta reformat the sd card every time because windows 7 does some weird striping data thing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The partition I show in picture is SD card (may be 16GB needed) not in NAND!
I means:
For WP7 to Android, we backup all WP7 NAND into image in Dump Partition 1, then reformat NAND for suitable for android, then read image (which was backup from previous OS swap Android->WP7) then dump it back to NAND.
Vice versa,
For Android to WP7, we backup all Android NAND into image in Dump Partition 2, then reformat NAND for suitable for WP7, then read image (which was backup from previous OS swap WP7->Android) then dump it back to NAND.
The backup process, NAND formating and image reading and dump back to NAND should be done in MAGLDR within one selection of OS swap menu.
That's all my idea.
I did not mention to put 2 OS in NAND, but hot swap by phone itself!
Maybe a bad idea to ask here, but what does linux swap do anyway? what is it for? cant seem to find an easy answer... Great idea btw, I like it
Swap + RAM = virtual memory
The Linux kernel selects the file (memory pages and so on) from RAM to swap them @ swap.
Swap is a background memory.
Swap is a supporter of RAM.
O.K.?
Greetings
This idea could work. There won't be a problem with WP7 and the memory card, because you only get a problem if you boot WP7 without memory card, but if you switch wp7 doesn't recognize anything about the memory card, so the most weird thing is solved. If we could manage to create this or maybe the dft team with further versions of magdlr it would be very interesting, but I don't know if we really need it, because we can do a dual boot with a sd-android-rom. Thumbs up for this interesting idea!
Although it seems to be doable (can't think of anything wrong at least), the boot times for an OS when you swap them is severely decreased. Let's do the math ?
Imagine we're switching from Android to WP7. So, we've got to dump around 400MB (at least) and load another 400MB (again, at least):
Writing Android to SD (400MB) at a 6MB/s (not to bad of a speed) = 67 seconds (approx.)
Writing WP7 from SD (400MB) to NAND at 2MB/s (yup, NAND is slow) = 200 seconds
So, i'd estimate at least 267 (as in 5 minutes) of time added to the boot sequence when you swap. Sure it may be tolerable for those guys who only switch from time to time, but i don't know...
What are your thoughts?
Partition NAND
It seems there is still no solution to do NAND partition without a PC. But other steps seems okay Let's wait!
I apologize if this isn't in the correct forum. I wasn't sure since it's dealing with two dif os's.
Anyways, my question is Can I access files on the android jellybean partition from inside of wp7? I would like to be able to play movies, look at pics in wp7 that are in the android partition.
Also, what about vice versa? One last question. Wp7 seems to run very quickly, but Android seems to run pretty slowly. I assume its because it's running from the SD card. Is there any way that can be sped up to run at normal (fast) speed?
--- edit:
is it possible to put android on the nand, and wp7 on the sd so that the android os would be faster?
So.
Yes, you can access files from FAT partition on WP7. Few file explorers allow you to do that, just have a look at them and check if Storage Card folder works. They also allow you to watch videos, view images and play music, but forget about playlist support, subtitles or anything complicated. We don't have software to do that yet.
Vice versa is not possible since WP7 uses its own file system which Android can't see nor use.
Android will always run slower because it's an unoptimized piece of sh- I mean software. But you can try ROMs which take advantage of EXT4 partitions using NativeSD method - these are noticeable faster, no more waiting for minutes for apps to launch. You can also overclock CPU and use higher read ahead value for SD card (SD Speed Increase from Market).
Putting Android on NAND and WP7 on SD is not yet possible. It might be when Magldr 2.0 will be released (and it won't be really that anyway), but we don't know when.
thank you
thanks for the detailed and thorough explanation. i see that you are also using a dual boot. how slow/fast does your paranoidjellybean operate? i'm going to look into ext 4 and cpu boosts. i guess i will have to reinstall/delete everything in my android partition to do an ext 4? and i guess if i go ext 4 wp7 won't be able to read it? i'm going to look into it. i will update this with whatever info i find.
---- edit
I'm going to try and use the roms you name in your signature area that you are using, and see if it works any better. what sd card are you using? I'm using a micro center micro sd class 6 16gb one. i'm getting a 8000ffff error in this wp7 rom when trying to get something from marketplace, and the droid is too slow. going to try the ext method for the droid. (can't dl apps on droid either!) so i will post what happens here.
---- edit
ok, i'm thoroughly confused by these instructions (somewhat vague in parts ) http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1869673 Is there a video tutorial where it is shown what to do step by step to get a native sd setup for a dual booth with android sd and wp7? Do I just do it the same way I did before (install wp7, then reset / repartition, but instead of using fat32 i make a fat32 (how big) and an ext4 (or 2?) and which comes first (the fat or the ext) ? Afterwards, ALL partitions are primary?
i found this info for installing ext4. but do i create the ext4 BEFORE or AFTER i install WP7 ?
I'd say Paranoid JB is pretty fast using NativeSD (EXT) method. You will need to create an EXT partition first, but keep a FAT partition, because on EXT the ROM will keep only its own data and apps, the rest is still on FAT (just like now, but instead of data.ext and system.ext in ICS folder there is a partition just for those). Windows Phone 7 will not be able to read content of EXT partition, but it will not be needed, since there won't be anything worth looking at and all media files you will still keep on FAT. You will also have to make a backup of everything on your FAT partition because it will be lost, and fresh install will be necessary. You might want to backup your applications with Titanium Backup though.
For more information on partitioning please visit NativeSD thread.
I'm using a 8GB Transcend Class 4 card with 4GB FAT, 1GB EXT and rest (2.4GB) WP7FS. I don't have any errors with downloading apps on neither WP7 nor Android. Are you sure you entered that special code for Marketplace and logged into Google account on Droid?
furthermore
actually, i installed the hd20 rom you're using and had no problems with marketplace. at this point i have hd20 wp7 set up, activated, and working. i'm just trying to understand some of the more advanced information in the forums about setting up the ext4. i found some very technical instructions (edit: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=534714 ) for setting up an ext2 with gparted via dos then upgrading it to ext4. i don't know if that will mess up the wp7 partition, and if i should have done this before i installed wp7.
i had already read the nativesd thread, and the extended threads from it. i'm afraid i'm just not knowledgeable enough currently to fill in the gaps of information i find in a lot of the instructions. but i'm not giving up.
---- edit update:
this has gotten way off the original topic so I've started a new thread with a diferent topic here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=31356468#post31356468