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Hello,
The display has a great resolution and has a wonderful size, but what can we expect from the screen brightness and contrast?
There is a review where the HD is compared to the Iphone 3G and the contrast and brightness of the iphone is even better (colors are stronger). Will the sold blackstone offer a better quality display contrast / brightness?
thx for any reply.
It's not the screen itself in which the IPhone is superior. Both screens (in darker situations) have quite similar brightness/contrast/color strength (looking at the Diamond and an IPhone 3G right now), and the Diamond is a hell of a lot sharper with 3 times the PPI.
But outside, on pictures and in well lit videos, the screen of the Diamond, Pro and HD all become a bit glared because they do not reflect all of the light, like the IPhone's glass screen, or the Blackberry Bold. They pick up some of the light which makes it harder to view the screen which is behind the top plastic layer, hence it looks as if their contrast is worse than that of the IPhone, which is not always the case.
In terms of DPI/PPI the HD will be lower than the Pro/Diamond I'm assuming since the horizontal resolution is the same even though the screen is wider and the vertical resolution is 'only' 160 pixels more in a screen that is a good bit longer than the Pro/Diamond.
Is this 'loss' of DPI/PPI in any way noticeable?
It is noticable, as soon as you stick your face into the screen and have good eyes The PPI is lower yes, but still much higher than say the IPhone (about 2.5 times higher). Since even on the IPhone you hardly notice pixels, the HD screen will still be tight as a drum, print quality for sure. The difference between the HD and the Diamond really is minimal.
Also, the huge screen means you will not be staring at your phone from up close since you have so much more real estate, you can hold it further away. Also I like the fact that the PPI have decreased in the width, because that makes all WinMo user interface bigger which is a plus imo, I really like the Diamond but their statement that you will only need one finger to control everything is BS.
The one thing I wish the EVO had going for it is an AMOLED screen. I'm coming from a Nexus one with said screen, and it's gorgeous. Almost useless in direct sunlight, but gorgeous. Now their was an early Sprint ?Coming Soon site claiming the phone had an AMOLED screen http://www.androidguys.com/2010/03/28/sprints-htc-evo-4git-sizzles/ ---but this was prob an error. My question is: is their a huge, noticeable, difference in the two types of screens? EVO owners, give me your opinions!
thefoss said:
The one thing I wish the EVO had going for it is an AMOLED screen. I'm coming from a Nexus one with said screen, and it's gorgeous. Almost useless in direct sunlight, but gorgeous. Now their was an early Sprint ?Coming Soon site claiming the phone had an AMOLED screen http://www.androidguys.com/2010/03/28/sprints-htc-evo-4git-sizzles/ ---but this was prob an error. My question is: is their a huge, noticeable, difference in the two types of screens? EVO owners, give me your opinions!
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Just had a live evo in my hands, and the screen is a beaut. I wouldnt worry about it not being AMOLED at all.
The screen is really a great screen.
I really don't notice much of a difference in colors / contrast / etc when compared to the ZuneHD, maybe it's the higher resolution / size that makes it look just as good.
meh, on the whole, AMOLED is all hype no show
AMOLED is trash I have a Nexus and an Evo and in direct sunlight my EVO is noticeable, AMOLED drains battery, LCD saves, colors are sharper but not brighter on AMOLED, brightness all the way up they both match up but the nexus(AMOLED) has a sharper scene
all in all not a big differ and Evo screen (IMO) has a better screen
1- colors are the same but sharper in AMOLED
2- direct sunlight LCD wins
3- colors are both bright
4- LCD battery saver
just a few details!
I thought that the amoled was more efficient.. so better than lcd
????
Sent from my HERO200 using Tapatalk
Dan330 said:
I thought that the amoled was more efficient.. so better than lcd
????
Sent from my HERO200 using Tapatalk
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its not, uses more battery
Phone Scoop comparesEvo screen to Nexus One Amoled
See below for review comparing the Evo screen to the Nexus One Amoled
Here is the link to the full article.
http://www.phonescoop.com/articles/article.php?a=373&p=2666
Screen
The screen on the HTC Evo 4G was, at times, a bit disappointing. Under medium indoor light, the screen is crisp and clear. Text looks sharp and legible and the dark, contrasty interface looks polished. Outside, the Evo 4G couldn't hold up to bright daylight. This made it tough to use for normal email and calling tasks, and nearly impossible to use the camera, since you have to tap an onscreen button to take a shot. In almost every way, the screen fared better than the AMOLED display on the smaller Nexus One. It was a bit brighter with warmer colors and much better outdoor performance. But it could still stand some improvement.
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SoFarGone said:
its not, uses more battery
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Incorrect, AMOLED has no back light and consumes roughly the same power that a TFT LCD uses just on the TFT portion of the screen. The TFT Portion of a Active Matrix OLED screen controls light on a PerPixel basis, illuminating each OLED pixel at whatever color is required vs LCD where the current is constantly on(except in a pure 0 0 0 black pixel) and controlling the Liquid Crystal portion rotating the LC to whatever degree to allow the backlight(A large % of the consumption) to shine through at a given color. And because of AMOLEDs aforementioned lack of back light it uses significantly less power.
I'm also confused as to what you mean by "color sharpness" Are you talking about the actual edge sharpness of an image or the color reproduction.
In which case the color reproduction on a AMOLED is more SATURATED not specifically more accurate, though the increased saturation makes the image appear better on average because most people enjoy over saturated images. The contrast ratio, which is the ratio of black to white, e.g. when a TV says it has a 3,500:1 contrast ratio then the luminance of a pure white pixel 255,255,255 is 3,500 times higher than that of a pure black 0,0,0 pixel. AMOLED displayes typically have a much higher contrast ratio due to the lack of a back light and the fact they can produce much "deeper" black pixels.
AMOLED actually bugs me, not only are they useless in direct sunlight(which I find myself under quite often) but it feels like colors are often OVER saturated, like the reds and oranges on my friend's Incredible look awful while I've never had that with my Hero, some colors on mine might be washed out but I'd rather have that than have a giant hodgepodge of colors on an AMOLED.
Another thing to consider is AMOLEDs "burn in". That means that pixels that do not change on the screen for a long time tend to burn in and show permanent shadows. This happens on the status bar a lot since it is nearly always displayed and unchanging.
Here is a thread of NexusOne owners documenting it.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=673513
As of last week I just switch over from At&t to Sprint wireless. I had two lines on my contract, wifey with the Samsung Moment and myself with the HTC Hero just to hold me off until the Evo release.
From what I thought isn't the Samsung Moment screen also uses the Amoled technology and the Hero is LCD?
Side by side comparison from low brightness to 100 percent, the Hero display looks so much better quality wise compare to the Moment. Hero seem more saturated and crisp whereas the Moment IMO seem much more dulled. Especially in the setting menu with the black background, the Moment is kind of like greenish black whereas the Hero is spot on black. Outside I'm having a very difficulty time navigating around Moment (brightness all the way up) whereas the Hero is still manageable.
By any mean I'm no expert in this display stuff but this is just my own little comparison of what I've seen between the two display.
Anyone know if the Evo screen is transreflective? A related question would be, is it even possible for AMOLED to be transreflective?
I compared my Evo screen with my old Hero screen and the Hero was a little brighter and with darker blacks. Even between LCDs there are differences.
Everyone has been raving on the DVP's screen, but having had the HD7 while waiting for my DVP to arrive, I've gotta say - I have mixed emotions!
While the colors are substantially better side by side...anyone notice how pixelated the DVP's screen is on text and such? The battery indicator is a good example of what I'm talking about...
I think I might actually prefer the LCD of the HD7 better, despite the lesser black level and color saturation.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
I see what you are talking about... I didn't realize this before you mentioned.
AMOLED in VP is a little bit too much saturated and the HD7 is a wee bit too washed up
A middle ground would have been awesome.
Maybe SLCD or SAMOELD hits that middle ground. My friend is getting the Captivate, will compare this side by side and let you know.
I have a slight blue tint on my whites at certain angles. I dont see a big difference in the two screens, but i expected more from the AMOLED.
937dytboi said:
I have a slight blue tint on my whites at certain angles. I dont see a big difference in the two screens, but i expected more from the AMOLED.
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I think that was my big let-down. I had (probably overinflated) high expectations of the AMOLED. I didn't see much on the net talking about it, and in fact, most reviews talk about the sharpness of the display, so I was confused if it was just my unit?
I *WAS* able to find a couple of sites that talk about AMOLED having sub-pixels vs a standard LCD/SLCD, and therefore it's not as good for small text or sharpness...
I must say, though, I love the keyboard, and I'm still going to keep the DVP over the HD7 - just a little surprised at the lack of impact from the screen, considering what they've done to build this device (gorilla glass, etc).
I agree with you on the fact that the AMOLED on the dvp has noticeable pixels more than the HD2 that I have. What’s even more sad is that they have the same resolution yet HD2 has a larger screen – Thus I should see more pixels from the HD2, however, this is the opposite.
Why does the DVP have noticeable pixels? Can anyone compare this with the Nexus One and see if they are the same?
Pen-tile matrix effect, probably what you are seeing here. However I cant see what scenario would occur to make me prefer the washed out screen of the HD7, just too darn low quality for me.
Its the nature of the AMOLED screens, my Focus had the same thing. However, overall, I find the screen on the DVP far, far superior to the HD7.
it was my understanding this is more a fault with windows phone 7 as it does not use 16m colours like the display can do.
Personally owning both.. the DVP has a MUCH better screen. Especailly if you change brightness to high.
ive never see an amoled screen before, but coming from the HD2, i was very disappointed.
i guess the hype of amoled screens made me have high expectations which were too high by the time i saw a real amoled screen.
Now that I have a DVP in hand all I can say is the difference is clear, the Dell's AMOLED screen is superior. Maybe some are being swayed by the size but for someone who has had an HD2 for almost 9 months the size is not really a factor and the lack of colour, dim lifeless screen is just no competition for the AMOLED on the Dell.
HD7 Advantages
+Noticeable advantage in color accuracy
+Larger screen offers better spacing on keyboard (portrait)
+Good black levels while inside optimum viewing angles
+/-Brightness is more than adequate (auto brightness is a little conservative though)
+/-Decent viewing angles (No issues during regular use)
HD7 disadvantages
-/+Decent viewing angles (Poor viewing angles make kickstand less useful)
-Slightly less responsive (my opinion)
-Lacks sharpness while viewing pictures (not sure why but they aren't as sharp as the rest of the time with the HD7)
-Color saturation could be better
Venue Pro Advantages
+Excellent contrast with fantastic black levels
+Slightly more responsive touchscreen (my opinion)
+Good brightness
+Excellent color saturation (somewhat oversaturated though)
+Perfect size (my opinion)
+/-Sharpness (pixels aren't noticeable during normal use)
Venue Pro Disadvantages
-/+Sharpness (some users may notice more pixelation)
-Very high color temperature (extremely unusual coming from a calibrated display)
-Can't use the brightness to your advantage without battery drain
-Keyboard felt a little cramped coming from the HD7
I miss the color accuracy of the HD7 but love the size and responsiveness of the Venue Pro. The HD7 gets a bad reputation because of viewing angles but during normal use this is a non-issue and possible advantage with curious onlookers (there will be plenty). It offers better black levels and shadow detail than the iphone 4 but gets hammered for viewing angles. The Venue Pro offers fantastic build quality, an almost perfect size (my opinion) and a more responsive touchscreen (my opinion). It has a very high color temperature but offers superb black levels and color saturation. It is also sleeker than I had anticipated from all the comments saying that it is a beast.
Sorry for the double post
Samsung has bastardized AMOLED with pentile imo. It prolongs display life but the tradeoff in picture quality is too great. There are AMOLED's with normal subpixels, and they look fantastic (Cowon S9, Zune HD, etc).
drleospaceman said:
Samsung has bastardized AMOLED with pentile imo. It prolongs display life but the tradeoff in picture quality is too great. There are AMOLED's with normal subpixels, and they look fantastic (Cowon S9, Zune HD, etc).
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That's a great point - the ZuneHD I have looks amazing! Still loving my phone, though...
Zoom Sharpness?
I purchased the DVP to have something that will show my pictures a little more accurately than the LCD I have on my HD2 (the slightly extra saturation is better than the washed out look on the HD2) but I now find that there is no sharpness to the images when zooming in.
I have a photo of the lights of Chicago at night and when at the full screen zoom level, it looks ok but zoom in and it is a blurry mess. My HD2 is very sharp when zoomed.
In the Zune software I have tried full size pictures compressed by Zune, pre-compressed images with Zune left on "Original" with no compression and nothing seems to make the images better when zoomed.
Anyone else seeing this problem? This could be a deal breaker for me as far as AMOLED screens go unless it is a WP7 problem. I would love to see how my images look on a Droid device with AMOLED.
jetjockgordo said:
I purchased the DVP to have something that will show my pictures a little more accurately than the LCD I have on my HD2 (the slightly extra saturation is better than the washed out look on the HD2) but I now find that there is no sharpness to the images when zooming in.
I have a photo of the lights of Chicago at night and when at the full screen zoom level, it looks ok but zoom in and it is a blurry mess. My HD2 is very sharp when zoomed.
In the Zune software I have tried full size pictures compressed by Zune, pre-compressed images with Zune left on "Original" with no compression and nothing seems to make the images better when zoomed.
Anyone else seeing this problem? This could be a deal breaker for me as far as AMOLED screens go unless it is a WP7 problem. I would love to see how my images look on a Droid device with AMOLED.
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I agree with you. Images seem way too pixilated. I mean, I can actually see them which is so sad when I compare it to the HD2. When I am going to do is wait for WP7 to be release on the HD2 by Cotulla and then compare if it the OS or specifically the DVP.
Has anyone seen another amoled screen before in real life? This is my first time I’ve seen an amoled screen. I am not impressed…. At all. Lol but the colors are lovely. Image quality drops, while color saturation grains points
If you read the Cnet phone screen shootout you will see that the HD7 has some pixelation on images of text when zoomed. I have also seen some softness and pixelation on my wifes HD7 when zoomed in. This only really seems to be when viewing images so I would guess it is OS related and not specific to the Venue Pro.
I own a Nexus S and DVP and the dell is getting returned today. Main reason is android is a better fit for me but close second is NS screen is head and shoulders better. No pixelation like I had on dvp.
I think I had a lemon too my dvp was freezing quite a bit.
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App
ruprick said:
I own a Nexus S and DVP and the dell is getting returned today. Main reason is android is a better fit for me but close second is NS screen is head and shoulders better. No pixelation like I had on dvp.
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I find this odd. I had a Focus and an Epic 4G - both have the same screen as the Nexus S - and they had the same pixelation issue as the DVP. It has to do with the AMOLED screen.
I flashed WP7 on my HD2 and set it to match my Focus them and layout. I always knew my HD2's display was good but now I have proof of how good. To me it matches the color richness of SAMOLED but doesn't have the ugly pentile look. It certainly looks better than the HD7 I had.
The focus seems a bit clearer, but something I've noticed with every amoled and super amoled panel is there is always a blue tint to it.
vbetts said:
The focus seems a bit clearer, but something I've noticed with every amoled and super amoled panel is there is always a blue tint to it.
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Yeah...in the picture it does look slightly clearer. I don't know why because I took two shots and that one was the better of the two and in person the HD2 screen is just perfectly clear. But the color production is what stuns me. To me it looks identical...except for maybe the black depth.
I have noticed the blue'ish tint you are talking about on my Focus and have commented that my iPhone 4's display is better than SAMOLED for color accuracy, viewing angle and quality. At the extreme viewing angle is where I see the blue'ish tint mostly and it is absent on the iPhone 4 display. Yet the iPhone 4 display has just as sharp a viewing angle. So it puts it above SAMOLED.
I had an HD7 when they first came out on T-Mobile and thought it was the stuff. Since flashing WP7 on my HD2, I am so amazed at the picture quality my HD2 puts out that I would much rather have the HD2 display in my HD7. I just got done with a little Angry Birds play ...the first time on my HD2 with WP7...and the colors and vividness of it just floors me. I've played Angry Birds on it a lot with Android. But WP7 Mango must be handling the display better because it just purely looks gorgeous.
I decided to take a look at the light theme and low and behold, it looks better on the HD2.
i haven't seen the nexus 4 with my own eyes yet, but almost all reviewers say that the screen on the nexus 4 is wayy better than the one on the gnex, i still use the gnex as my primary phone, the screen is pretty amazing, especially in terms of color because amoled screen has oversaturated color, but it's not as real as lcd, my question is : is the screen on the nexus 4 really is that amazing and real? i prefer oversaturated color than natural color though, it looks "eye-catching" how about the black lvl on the nexus 4 ? lcd screen doesn't have the deep black color that amoled screen has...yes i know gnex screen is pentile, but i still can't see the pixels, unless you look really close to the display which makes your eyes hurt
if you think that im bashing nexus 4 because i don't have it, no your totally wrong, as matter of fact, if someone would give one to me, i would take it with pleasure
ReAlives said:
i haven't seen the nexus 4 with my own eyes yet, but almost all reviewers say that the screen on the nexus 4 is wayy better than the one on the gnex, i still use the gnex as my primary phone, the screen is pretty amazing, especially in terms of color because amoled screen has oversaturated color, but it's not as real as lcd, my question is : is the screen on the nexus 4 really is that amazing and real? i prefer oversaturated color than natural color though, it looks "eye-catching" how about the black lvl on the nexus 4 ? lcd screen doesn't have the deep black color that amoled screen has...yes i know gnex screen is pentile, but i still can't see the pixels, unless you look really close to the display which makes your eyes hurt
if you think that im bashing nexus 4 because i don't have it, no your totally wrong, as matter of fact, if someone would give one to me, i would take it with pleasure
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You said you like oversaturated colors better, so you'll definitely like the gnex screen better. Blacks aren't as blacks as the gnex.
Blacks look pretty good on the Nexus 4 for an LCD screen. I also like vibrant colors and while these aren't quite pop like an AMOLED display, I think they are still good.
It's hard for me to say if it's better than the Galaxy Nexus. I think I might have a problem with my Nexus 4, because I can see very fine horizontal lines on my phone, kinda like the screen door effect on a monitor. I asked about it on the general board and it got very little response, so I'm guessing it's not a common issue.
[A] It is a LCD and not an OLED with pentile matrix, so: Yes! (better = more accurate. better != more saturated)
Yes, it is. Enough said.
I like the over-saturated colours of AMOLED screens. When I went from the Desire (AMOLED) to the Incredible (LCD), I was super disappointed.
However, going from the GNex to the N4, I have to say that the screen is better. Things I've noticed:
- Yes, the blacks aren't as black. If you use it as a bedside clock (in a dock or something), you'll notice more backlight coming through
- The N4 colours are more accurate (pretty standard result compared to AMOLED), but they do have some nice punch to them - much better than a lot of LCD screens I've seen and certainly almost holding it's own compared to AMOLED.
- Comparing side by side - it became apparent that the GNex is horrible at whites. I hadn't noticed whilst owning it, but side by side, the GNex whites look yellowy. In comparison, the whites on the N4 are almost blinding. Again, I never noticed this from the Gnex whilst owning it - I was perfectly happy.
In summary, I'd say the screen is better, but the night clock greyer blacks issue might be an irritant for you. Otherwise, it's N4 all the way.
tifosi256 said:
I like the over-saturated colours of AMOLED screens. When I went from the Desire (AMOLED) to the Incredible (LCD), I was super disappointed.
However, going from the GNex to the N4, I have to say that the screen is better. Things I've noticed:
- Yes, the blacks aren't as black. If you use it as a bedside clock (in a dock or something), you'll notice more backlight coming through
- The N4 colours are more accurate (pretty standard result compared to AMOLED), but they do have some nice punch to them - much better than a lot of LCD screens I've seen and certainly almost holding it's own compared to AMOLED.
- Comparing side by side - it became apparent that the GNex is horrible at whites. I hadn't noticed whilst owning it, but side by side, the GNex whites look yellowy. In comparison, the whites on the N4 are almost blinding. Again, I never noticed this from the Gnex whilst owning it - I was perfectly happy.
In summary, I'd say the screen is better, but the night clock greyer blacks issue might be an irritant for you. Otherwise, it's N4 all the way.
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after calibrating my gnex with trinity kernel, white is very white on my gnex, i think it's just a matter of color calibration
Comparing the 2 side-by-side the N4 wins hands down. I really don't see how I put up with that GNex screen as long as I did.
Ravynmagi said:
Blacks look pretty good on the Nexus 4 for an LCD screen. I also like vibrant colors and while these aren't quite pop like an AMOLED display, I think they are still good.
It's hard for me to say if it's better than the Galaxy Nexus. I think I might have a problem with my Nexus 4, because I can see very fine horizontal lines on my phone, kinda like the screen door effect on a monitor. I asked about it on the general board and it got very little response, so I'm guessing it's not a common issue.
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I have the same issue with my Nexus 4, faint horizontal banding across the entire display. It's difficult to see on whites and blacks, but pretty much every color in-
between it's fairly obvious. It's also terrible when watching videos.
I called Google yesterday after I received the phone and they're shipping out a replacement (props to Google support, btw). It's definitely not normal, and I would urge you to call in and get a replacement sent your way ASAP. Even if you think you can "live with it", there's no guarantee that it's not indicative of a larger screen issue that might get worse.
I've loved amoled displays ever since I got my galaxy s and I've been using only amoled since then (galaxy s, s2, gnex), so I was apprehensive about whether I'd like the nexus 4 screen or not.
But after just a day of use, I can safely say I'll probably stick to LCD from now on. I never imagined I'd like the screen this much. Its one of the best things about the phone.
The whites are beautiful, the blacks are very good for an LCD and look just as black as my gnex when seen in daylight/well lit environments. In dark situations the blacks aren't as good but it doesn't matter because the display still looks gorgeous. And BTW I had trinity kernel as well. Trust me, no calibration could ever get the gnex to have whites this gorgeous.
I never had an issue with pentile before but once you use a non pentile display like this, the difference is very apparent. Its so much sharper and crisper from any distance.
And the colors just look nicer as well. Looking at my dads gnex screen after this actually makes me wonder how I ever liked colors that way.
Another reason the nexus 4 screen looks so beautiful is because gradients are actually smooth. After years of looking at amoled gradients, this is a huge and welcome change.
And its great having the screen so much closer to the surface of the glass.
The only downside to the nexus 4 screen are the viewing angles. Definitely not as nice as the gnex. I can't lie down and look at my screen diagonally anymore :/ The one x doesn't have this issue so I guess its LGs fault and not an LCD related problem.
All in all, you won't regret it. No matter how much you've loved amoled. You'll finally understand what all the hype around LCDs is about. And they were right.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
Nexus 4 screen appears more upscale compared to GNex. The text looks more precise. Photos look more realistic. Color reproduction is much more accurate vs GNex and there is no infamous purple tint.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
Oh man that god awful purple tint:crying:
The Nexus 4 is the first Nexus phone with a good screen, in my opinion. Tossing AMOLED and PenTile to the curb was the best decision Google's made since buying Android. Visibility in daylight is somewhat better but still not great. The color isn't as eye-popping, which is a good thing; AMOLED is obnoxious to look at. As for the black levels, IIRC AnandTech did a comparison and found that Nexus 4 has the best contrast ratio and best black level of any LCD-based smartphone, which sounds about right to me. Black levels are IMHO very close to AMOLED. To get these black levels though it appears they had to sacrifice peak brightness, where Nexus 4 is only average. White balance and color calibration is decent, though not iDevice-good. Pixel response speed is noticeably better than GNex. Also you need not worry about uneven wear (burn-in) since LCD isn't susceptible to this. This new screen is infinitely better overall. I do graphics design work as a hobby, if that's worth anything.
The new screen is much more battery efficient as well. Last weekend, my N4 lasted for 14 hours of very heavy use before I plugged it into the charger, and of that time the screen was on for 5h44m. With the remaining 9% or so I could've made it to 6h, but it was extremely late at night and I was about to pass out from exhaustion at that point. My GNex lasted 4h at best, even under very light load.
Yesterday I used it on a road trip with about 2 hours of screen-on + navigation + music streaming, plus another hour of regular use. In total it lasted 7h24m before ithe battery reached critical and I plugged it in. Coming from a GNex, that's phenomenal. I would be lucky to get 2 hours of navigation alone.
The speed its HSPA connection is great! I hit 13 mbps yesterday, about 3x faster than I ever got on my GNex. The device itself, needless to say, is as fast as it gets. This is very cutting-edge hardware and Android post-4.1 is a beast.
This is by far the best device I've owned. The glass back was an odd choice and the lack of USB Host is disappointing, but those are the only two faults I can come up with. If it was more expensive I'd fault it for having only 16 GB of storage, but with the price considered, it's adequate. Hopefully the USB Host issue will be addressed by some clever developers somehow, but it's probably unlikely.