[Q]Best build using Evo Sense? - HD2 Android Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting and Genera

Yeah... I've tried searching a lot, I just got this phone having learned I could port Android, but the problem now is I do have it running... but it doesn't run very well. I think what's happening to my phone right now is it's overheating, because I was actually trying out flash games just for kicks and it kept freezing(I have to take out the battery and put it back in just to fix it, and this time I actually had to reinstall android on my SD Card for it to work again) , same as when I was attempting to watch movies/tv shows. So, I'm wondering maybe if I change my winmo rom around and what have you that'll smooth things out. If anyone who's using MDJ's Evo Sense 2.3 build could point me in a good direction or maybe tell me it's something totally different causing my phone to lock up.
Much appreciated.

Related

phone won't go past 50%

hey guys.
i have a tmobile hd2 and i've noticed that my phone wont go past 50% with memory usage without having to restart itself. its very annoying. it happens after ive been using the phone for a while or been using the wi-fi router. my touch pro 2 never did that to me though so im wondering whats wrong.
help?
thanks
sorry to bump this but can no one help me?
Is it getting hot? Mine gets warm after using WIFI router. Once, only once, and I have no idea why because it hasn't done it since then, it randomly rebooted. I understand that higher temps can cause issues with the HD2. I'd do a search but I'm too frazzeled after a long day of work.
it cant be the heat...my phone gets warm but not hot once in a while. when it resets itself, it doesnt have to be hot to do it.
and when it does reset itself, it forgets to start the gps so i have to reset it again
i hate when it does it...is that normal to not go past 50% ram usage? does anyone elses do that? im gonna call and get a replacement but does anyone elses HD2 not go past it?
goodtilltomorrow said:
it cant be the heat...my phone gets warm but not hot once in a while. when it resets itself, it doesnt have to be hot to do it.
and when it does reset itself, it forgets to start the gps so i have to reset it again
i hate when it does it...is that normal to not go past 50% ram usage? does anyone elses do that? im gonna call and get a replacement but does anyone elses HD2 not go past it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You don't have your ROM in your sig, so I don't know if you have a custom or not.
For sure, you phone crashing that fast is a shame and not normal.
If you are running a custom ROM, try getting on that thread to see if someone has or had the same issue. Sometimes these things happen and fixes are pretty fast if the chef wants to keep an audience.
If you are running stock, you might consider giving a custom ROM a shot, especially some of the "Lite" versions out there.
Be sure to Task 29 between any flashing to wipe out all previous data. Spare bits hanging around can interfere with a new ROM in unpredictable ways, including developing a crash pattern specific to your device that doesn't happen to other users of the same ROM.
Please keep us informed of your progress, someday another might have the issue and be looking for your solution, even if that is a hardware warranty exchange
hmm, i can see the rom version and everything on my sig... =/
im running the stock rom.
i wanted to go to a custom rom but then i hate having to update the rom every time a new one comes out. you know? props to the chefs who do that though!
i just had it exchanged. it was too annoying to keep going on like that

Just an answer to my question.

Phone freezes no matter what I try. Stumped
I have a question that seems not to be able to get answered where ever I post it. so please forgive me for posting here if this is not the correct place. I have been trying android from the beginning and I've tried everyones builds. from winmo to droid and different radios to find the right combination. The problem i keep running into is that my phone freezes up no matter what i do. I tried the letama .2 & .3. This problem even occurs in winmo even with the sd out. I may get a full day out of it with no problems then the problem returns. Right know i'm running MDJ Froyo revolution v.1.3 and winmo ozrom 5.10 wwe and radio 2.10.50.26. Also, wipe the sd clean every time i switch builds or upgrade. Haven't figured out how to do logs yet. still searching and reading to try and teach myself how to be more useful around the forums. Thanks and I appreciate all the hard work the DEVS put in. That's why i follow the rules except this time.
cwsmall said:
That's why i follow the rules except this time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Obey the rules!
Naa, just kidding. But if your phone's freezing even in WinMo there's something really messed up. Did you try to make a task 29 and flash your ROM again? That might be helpful.. If not, turn your phone back to original standards (ROM, HSPL, Radio must be as given by the factory) and go to your retailor to use your guarantee if you still have.
Obey the rules!
Naa, just kidding. But if your phone's freezing even in WinMo there's something really messed up. Did you try to make a task 29 and flash your ROM again? That might be helpful.. If not, turn your phone back to original standards (ROM, HSPL, Radio must be as given by the factory) and go to your retailor to use your guarantee if you still have.
I like you sense of humor. thank you for taking the time and commenting. there has been 30+ people that have viewed this and haven't even responded. But, some can ask like where is the download link and we all now where its at. always at the beginning of the thread,but they get all kind of replies. It just makes no sense to me when someone has a legit question they can't get much help. don't really understand that. Thought we were here to help each other.I don't believe that its an issue hardware issue. i believe its more software than anything. It comes and goes. My phone was going thru a period where it would reboot all by itself with no apparent reason. Then all of a sudden it stopped it and hasn't done that for 4 to 6 weeks.
really 97 views and no insight.
you tried the stock factory rom?? It might be hardware. You will be surprised a tiny drop of water inside your phone will slowly mess up your phone through a long period of time.
Are you on tmobile? I will try to look for a stock rom for you.
BTW, what do you mean by freezing? it hiccups or you have to do a battery pull.
cwsmall said:
really 97 views and no insight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
btw, your title is a curious one, that is why you have many views and received little to no response. If they can't help you they won't post anything. But I will try my best to see whats going on.
if your suffering from the freezes in winmo and android then you I think that you need to forget about android for the time being and concentrate on getting a stable WM set up........
If you havent already done so then try a hard reset and see if that helps.......
try booting and running your phone with and without your sd card........
with and without your sim card........
if it still happens after the hard reset then you will need to reflash your WM rom, if you plan on using the phone mostly for android then I would opt for a basic rom like the energy reference series or one of duttys roms.....
there are many reasons why your phone might freeze and you need to spend time trying all situations to figure out what makes it freeze..........
if it still happens after the reset/reflash then we can only assume that it is a serious problem which may well require a warranty replacement.....
if your suffering from the freezes in winmo and android then you I think that you need to forget about android for the time being and concentrate on getting a stable WM set up........
I have tried all that you have suggested. The curious thing to me is that it seems to come and go. It first started with the energy rom and it's also happened with dutty's as well. if you guys know how to pull logs that devs need is possible you could give me a run down on how and then maybe i can find out if it is hardware. My phone has never been near water. i'm very careful about that. I'm using ozrom now. This is the 3rd HD2 i've had. the last one lost all touch response. I just have a feeling its software, but i just have a gut feeling on that. Thanks everyone though for your input i greatly appreciate it and keep it coming.
BTW, what do you mean by freezing? it hiccups or you have to do a battery pull.
I have to pull the battery. Then i may have to leave it out for a minute or two maybe longer then replace battery before it will load windows. it will just show the splash screen.
was this happening even when you were running the stock rom?
Have you tried to reformat your SD Card? I have two, and when I used my original card received with my HD2, TMOUSA, it would freeze. Since I reformatted and use new and old card, no problems for over a month.
was this happening even when you were running the stock rom?
YES
Have you tried to reformat your SD Card? I have two, and when I used my original card received with my HD2, TMOUSA, it would freeze. Since I reformatted and use new and old card, no problems for over a month.
yes. I have two the 16 that came with it and an 8. it happens with both. I reformat every time i switch builds.
I see that your using radio 2.10 and that caused my HD2 to freeze a lot. change your radio to 2.12 or 2.14
I use the same Android build as you but with the elegancia gtx wm rom with radio 2.14 and after upgrading the radio the freezing (SOD) stopped.
I started using the radio 2.15.50 and have had no problems whatsoever. Also unchecking auto rotate and auto britghtness helps. Sometimes redownloading and installing your Android helps if you got a bad download the first time.
Update
now runnning enery extreme from 11/5 and mdj desire hd with his newest kernel smartass and the only time it freezes in during a call. usually anywhere from 5 - 15 minutes into the call. Anyone have any insight two a possible solution?
This is what I would do:
1. Task 29
2. Flash a slim WM ROM such as the one mentioned in my signature.
3. Flash a NEW RADIO...at least 2.12 or even higher.
3a. Install NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. Just answer and make calls. Period.
4. Test that build for two days. If I have freezups, then my phone is bad and I would flash the stock rom and radio and return it. If it does not freezup goto 5.
5. Completely reformat my SD card to Fat32 32kb (or 64kb if you think it affects stuttering in music).
6. Since you and I are both in the US, I recommend getting an Android that has a built in TMO MMS fix such as the new MDJ build (with link to MMS fix) or the fine MooMoo build or even Bluetopia.
7. Test the basic features in Android for two days minimum and see if I get freezeups (after disabling auto-rotate and wi-fi on the Android build as well as completely shutting off all radios in WM).
8. Be glad I got this far, and slowly reinstall my apps, testing each thoroughly for freezing.
This is what I would do:
1. Task 29
2. Flash a slim WM ROM such as the one mentioned in my signature.
3. Flash a NEW RADIO...at least 2.12 or even higher.
3a. Install NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. Just answer and make calls. Period.
4. Test that build for two days. If I have freezups, then my phone is bad and I would flash the stock rom and radio and return it. If it does not freezup goto 5.
5. Completely reformat my SD card to Fat32 32kb (or 64kb if you think it affects stuttering in music)
Thanks for taking the time to post this i appreciate it. I have tried it all. It appears to be getting better. I have been using MDJ's kernels since he posted them with his desire hd build. I have always felt that it was software related and not hardware. It appears to me to be caused maybe by the data drops from ppp. Not sure though till i teach myself how to do that. thanks again though.
Turned out to be a hardware issue. Got my new replacement and it works flawless. Can't believe the fun I was missing. At least it was a great learning experience.
Sent from my HTC HD2 Desire using XDA App

Debating keeping the HD2, or going back to Nexus

Hey guys.. I love Android. I've ran so many different rom's and CM6 Nightly's n such on my Nexus One and I really love the phone. I love this HD2 also tho.
I've been using the HD2 with DarkStone FroYo for the last 10 Days or so. I must say I LOVE the HD2. It's a great phone, I love the screen and it's size, but hard buttons all being one piece of plastic was a bad move but thats about it.
Basically here's my issue. I have screen freezes that are a few seconds, or up to 10 allll day long. sometimes it will freeze and wont go into sleep mode for up to a minute (at least a few times a day) I lose my Data signal at least 10 times a day also. Sometimes it comes back, other times I need to Toggle Airplane on/off and my signal will come back.. Basically it's very smooth and awesome, then just craps. and this is extremely often and very random and it's starting to get very irritating. I wanna go back to my Nexus. I've also tried SkinnyEVO and had similar problems.. Are there any ROM's that are smoother and more stable, screen freezes and data drop-outs are really starting to irritate me knowing I wouldn't have these issues on my N1.
Should I wait for Nand to get going, should I try a few more ROM's. Is there fixes for these issues? Any info or suggestions would be great. I'd love to use this for a Daily phone, but in the current state it's a hard call.
Man Try MCCM 1.6 with updating kernel hastarin 8.5
it doesn't freeze at all.
everything work no bugs at all.
camera with zoom , face detection.
it is an awesome build
which radio u have and wim mobile u got ?
Darkstone has not updated his build for quite some time. Definitely try an updated build with latest kernels before giving up on the ole HD2. The touchscreen freeze has been eliminated with the newer kernels. I've been using the Motodroid build which has very good performance with the best working camera; no green tint, full 5 mp with working wide screen mode and shutter sound is selectable (which I have not found in any other build).
I don't know what MinMo build. I'll check, but I have the latest Kernel for the HD2. Kernel 2.15.50
I'll check what WinMo after work. Thanks for posts. I'll report back later
Do try a newer build, like the others said. I upgraded mine to hdone and replaced the kernels and i have yet to have my phone screen freeze. When i was using every other build with the old kernals, it froze all the time. Don't give up on your hd2 yet!
I think you have hit on 2 major issues the first screen freezes has been pretty much solved with the latest kernels with the g sensor fix. So try Hastarins 8.5 or mdeejays latest.
Second the data problems still exist but has been much improved with Letamas Ril Wrapper and other ppp tweaks ,see Letamas thread. if you try one of the newer roms they might have all above already in, so worth a try before going back to nexus.
I've been following Android on HD2 since August, and I've gone from all your problems and more to almost none (touch wood: my phone has begun to freeze today after three weeks of no problems - I'm hoping it's an installed app issue).
They are getting better and better and it's only battery life which remains an issue (for me).
Everyone's going to have different results depending on Radio/Location/Operator, but personally the MDeeJay Sense Revolutions (both types - Froyo and his other one), have worked very well for me, on Energy ROMS (currently the barebones one).
I can't promise Android on HD2 will always be flawless, but your two biggest gripes are certainly solvable on the right combination. (I hope!)
Change your SD card to a Class 6 and let us know.
Give up on the HD2, go back to the Nexus, send me your HD2
Scan my signature for my setup - I find it the best after changing at least 15 builds, 7 WinMo ROMs and 4 different radio combinations.
PS I am really stubborn guy, so that tells you that I've tried all possible combinations with above count of builds, roms, radios - and so far this one gives me what I want: HD2 with the Build that is smoothest and more stable than any Android phone I played around with so far... including nexus one
Thanks for all the information posted here guys. I appreciate it. I'll try mdeejay's latest and see how things go. (all of mdeejay's are Sense UI) I want stock Froyo
Another question. Can I copy everything from my Android Folder, to a New Android Folder for the new ROM I'm about to try, and have everything be exactly how it is now on DarkStone, or will that not work?
xguntherc said:
Thanks for all the information posted here guys. I appreciate it. I'll try mdeejay's latest and see how things go. (all of mdeejay's are Sense UI) I want stock Froyo
Another question. Can I copy everything from my Android Folder, to a New Android Folder for the new ROM I'm about to try, and have everything be exactly how it is now on DarkStone, or will that not work?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Titanium backup is your friend there. google for the wiki and read up on how to backup and restore.
Oh and if you don't like Sense, that's fine, just install whatever launcher you want, press the home button and it will ask you what launcher to use, tick the box for "use this by default" and sense won't come back to bug you. You can also remove the lockscreen slide by deleting the "HTCLockScreen.apk" via adb.
Just also to backup what others are saying, later builds like the one in my sig are far more reliable and useable, I get no data drops or any of the other problems you experience currently.
I know how titanium and all that works, thanks for trying to help though.
I just figured since everything is in the Android Folder, couldn't I copy it to another Android1 folder and boot to that build, and everything be there. but if not. It's ok. I'll just titanium backup everything instead.
I'm thinking about trying out BiffMod 1.2
xguntherc said:
Hey guys.. I love Android. I've ran so many different rom's and CM6 Nightly's n such on my Nexus One and I really love the phone. I love this HD2 also tho.
I've been using the HD2 with DarkStone FroYo for the last 10 Days or so. I must say I LOVE the HD2. It's a great phone, I love the screen and it's size, but hard buttons all being one piece of plastic was a bad move but thats about it.
Basically here's my issue. I have screen freezes that are a few seconds, or up to 10 allll day long. sometimes it will freeze and wont go into sleep mode for up to a minute (at least a few times a day) I lose my Data signal at least 10 times a day also. Sometimes it comes back, other times I need to Toggle Airplane on/off and my signal will come back.. Basically it's very smooth and awesome, then just craps. and this is extremely often and very random and it's starting to get very irritating. I wanna go back to my Nexus. I've also tried SkinnyEVO and had similar problems.. Are there any ROM's that are smoother and more stable, screen freezes and data drop-outs are really starting to irritate me knowing I wouldn't have these issues on my N1.
Should I wait for Nand to get going, should I try a few more ROM's. Is there fixes for these issues? Any info or suggestions would be great. I'd love to use this for a Daily phone, but in the current state it's a hard call.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to change you're SD card. I had gone through the same problem with A-Data class 4 sd card...but large waking times randomly spoiled the whole android experience....so much so that I gave up android...
But ever since I went back to replacement 16GB samsung SD card (which is ironically class 2) things have improved...and the phone wakes up instantly..
Also upgrade the kernel to hastarin v8.5.1 of ur build..it just solved all Data issues for me..maybe it will work for you too
I'm using the stock 16GB Class 2 Samsung that it came with. I have a 16GB Class 10 in my Nexus if we want to compare. but I'm not sure how large the SD class will really change things. Maybe a little.
I came to the HD2 from a Nexus.
I love my nexus... but wanted a larger screen.
Originally I had all the issues you commented... Id already sold my N1 so I really had to work on the HD2 working how I wanted it.
After flashing different roms, radio's, androids and kernels Ive finally landed where I am happy and in just the recent weeks with the tweaks the devs have done to their kernels my phone is rocketing and would never go back...
Only thing I do miss is the trackball and its colored notifications.
OP, you asked about overwriting your files, here's what I did...
I backed up my whole SD Card to my PC, so that I had my full working phone backed up just in case.
I then overwrite the contents of my old Android build with my new Android build, ignoring the data.img file.
Then re-booted, and Voila! EVERYTHING (apps, settings, wallpapers etc) came back, but my ROM was faster and smoother and upgraded.
This was switching from one ROM-maker to an entireley different one (both were Android 2.2 though).
If this had failed, I could have wiped my SD card, and made a choice between trying a fresh new Android, or using my SD Card back-up. If I'd had to go fresh, I'd know my Google Account would hold my contacts and purchased app settings. The AppBrain app is also useful in this regard.
Have fun!
im in a similar situation. i got me a secondhand nexus one, to try how android runs on a native device. i walked around with it for some days now, and i think im soon going back to my hd2, cause I CANT GET USED TO THE SMALL SCREEN ON THE NEXUS XD
really. not.
android on the hd2 runs almost as smooth as on the nexus one, i dont even cared in choosing the right build for my hd2, i just picked froyostone, and thats it xD
so yea, in the end, the only thing i really love on the nexus one is the awsome trackball, with its different colours :3 omg i want that on my hd2... ;(
i was having the freezing problem when i was using energy rom with the stock sd card when i flashed to the newest tmobile rom all of my freezing went away so if you have that problem try the newest tmobile rom it worked for me

[Q] Is anyone suffering from constant reboot after Nand flash?

Hi guys.
Thanks for the great work you guys achieved!
I have been enjoying my HD2 much more these days.
I have been testing and flashing the nand roms on this forum and it seems all the desire roms are giving me a random reboot on my phone.
Not constant but at least twice a day.
I've uninstalled(or not installed any) apps or killer tasks.
The most stable nand rom I used without crashing much was the nexus rom.
Has the bug from Desire creeped into the nand rom based on Desire?
I've searched the forum and it says it could be corrupt data on the SD card
but I've cleared and formatted the SD card many times.
Any ideas what is causing the crash?
One key point is that my phone is in a flat where the signal is not very good so it is constantly looking for signal from the provider.
Apart from that I have all the HARDSPL 2.08, MAGLDR 1.11 installed and never had a issue flashing the roms.
Any advice or solution would be grateful! Thanks~
are you using an overclocked kernal? cause sometimes it happens when you are using it at full speed and starts rebooting itself, imho...
+1 on the Kernel theory here... Not all silicone is created equal, some phones can take the OC, some can not. Try and throttle it down with SetCPU.
Are you freezing up before the reboots??
---
Sent from my HD2 DROID.
redevilz said:
Hi guys.
Thanks for the great work you guys achieved!
I have been enjoying my HD2 much more these days.
I have been testing and flashing the nand roms on this forum and it seems all the desire roms are giving me a random reboot on my phone.
Not constant but at least twice a day.
I've uninstalled(or not installed any) apps or killer tasks.
The most stable nand rom I used without crashing much was the nexus rom.
Has the bug from Desire creeped into the nand rom based on Desire?
I've searched the forum and it says it could be corrupt data on the SD card
but I've cleared and formatted the SD card many times.
Any ideas what is causing the crash?
One key point is that my phone is in a flat where the signal is not very good so it is constantly looking for signal from the provider.
Apart from that I have all the HARDSPL 2.08, MAGLDR 1.11 installed and never had a issue flashing the roms.
Any advice or solution would be grateful! Thanks~
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have the same problems.
I dunno
Now how would I check if I am using the overclocked kernal on my phone?
DroidTh3ory said:
+1 on the Kernel theory here... Not all silicone is created equal, some phones can take the OC, some can not. Try and throttle it down with SetCPU.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not just overclocked kernels, undervolted kernels also don't work well for some people.
OP: which build are you currently using?
Install SetCPU and dial it down a little. If you don't know chances are you are not OC'ed, but that doesn't mean your CPU isn't taking some pain. Bring it down to say.... 800 and see if it holds on. Worth a shot.
---
Sent from my HD2 DROID.
Okie thanks for the quick reply
Currently I am running DFT stock Desire rom.
I think I flashed the phone with every nand rom on this forum....lol
The phone will just reboot when left alone.
So I don't know if it is crashing or freezing.
Sometimes it reboots while charging and sometimes just on standby doing nothing.
Doesn't seem to be getting warm but maybe I can't really feel it as it is bloody cold in my room.
I will try the SetCPU option and see what happens.
It may as well be something that simply occurs randomly. I flashed jdms nand 2 days ago & it worked great, yesterday tho I had to reflash wm coz I needed to reinstall copilot & deactivate it so I could get it on android. Once I went back to jdms nand, I started getting random reboots. So I went ahead & reflashed a 3rd time & its been stable once again.
sent from my HD2 android
It may also be just something it does early on, give it some time to settle...
sent from my HD2 android
i dont have this problem, i testing my rom on 3 days without sim-card. And it work well.
Thanks for the help guys!
Dialed down to 806 MHz.
I will report tomorrow if it reboots or not.
I get really jumpy when my phone suddenly vibrates on me...lol
i had it 2day for the first time, dont know why . im using the standerd rom from cotulla. i had it on the table while i was on my laptop n suddenly
it reboot itself
Yeah its scary coz you never expect it.
Imagine you are on your own watching the Ring or something and the phone jumps up!-_-;;
also keep in mind that your mainboard in the hd2 could be the problem. Had those reboot issues in winmo 6.5 (sometimes when doing nothing but mostly when watching youtube/cpu intensive service).
So i sent my phone to a repair center, they replaced the mainboard and since my phone doesn't reboot > sod whatever again and believe me there are an load of faulty mainboard around sadly
Second that, this girl had the same problem and she just got a warranty phone (new)
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
I had no problem what so ever when using windows rom, and I used whole bunch of them.
Had freezing from time to time but never reboot issue.
I've searched and there is a whole forum and issue on the HTC Desire rebooting constantly....
The phone rebooted itself just now even with the 800mhz drop.
I am going reflash to stock wm rom and then back to the most stable Nexus Android rom and see what happens from there.
Those of you who haven't had this problem yet let me inform you that this problem doesn't start right away after you flash the rom, maybe couple of days or a week after it started.
Let's try and get it sorted out~!
same problems here, using mdj gingerbread 1.3
but its always freeze while running heavy cpu load apps like games, earth, youtube etc
tried donwclock to around 800 mhz but dont solved =/
Same problem here , randomly reboot.
I m using JDMS 1.62 , only happen on android , WM rom is working fine without reboot.
Well it seems I am not the only one having this problem here.
Anybody running Nexus rom and still having random reboot issues?
Or anyone running Android on SD card without and random reboots?
Could it be the the data on the phone is rewriting the wrong information and causing it some process to fail and to reboot?
It doesn't seem to be the hardware fault(then it would happen alot more often as hardware fail will be permanent and problem would show more frequently) although I have read on the Desire forum people have been sending their phone back for motherboard replacement with mixed results.
Currently reflashing again!

[Q] Im new and need help

Ok i've had my hd2 for a while.I wanted to sell it because it was boring and i didnt find any cool apps from windows market.So i found out i can put android on it,so i did and put Android 2.2 Froyo on my HD2.And now its a lot better.But now it drains the battery pretty quick, i dont really mind that.Today it ran out of battery and i started to charge it and tried turning it on,it would turn on but stay at the T-mobile screen and not load.So disconnected the charger i took out battery and rebooted it multiple times then i searched on google.And i took out the sim and sd.And now it turned on.But now im wondering if it will happen again if i continue using the Android on my storage card.And can anyone teach me more about this what i should know about things i can do to make my phone better,im new i dont know anything,i just saw a topic about flashing an hd2 ,i dont even know what that is.I would also want to know of what could possibly happen if i keep runing Android.I also want to know more about different Roms(i think thats what their called,idk im new to this) that are better and safer then the Android im using now.
-Gera
read this http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=893948

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