Related
I have been quite dismayed with the predominate attitude, taken on lately by many senior members, that it is okay to treat people as lesser individuals, simply because their computer skills are lacking. Knowledge needs to be shared, and is detrimental to society as a whole when individuals feel afraid to learn. Additionally, the ever growing flame wars between senior members is not beneficial to anyone.
Many of have been treated horribly in the past by others, and it becomes all to easy to lash out from behind a computer at someone, using a faceless individual to represent those whom have hurt you. The truth is, we all have pain, we all have been belittled by others, and by continuing this behavior in a forum only hurts us all.
Though I know I will most likely be flamed for this, I want to make a post, asking senior members to agree to a pact stating:
1. I will be as patient as possible with each individual, and respect the fact that what me seem easy to me, can be difficult to others.
2. I will restrain from flaming others in the forum. If an individual attempts to start something with me, I pledge to be the bigger person, and ignore the comments.
3. If I so choose to help someone, I pledge to do it in a constructive, non-demeaning manner.
I recognize that this is symbolic only, and is not something that can, or was intended to be enforced. I feel that it is a strong thing for this community to have a core group of senior member that refuse to play into this hurtful, non-constructive behavior. Please join me in agreeing to this. Thank You.
I'll only agree if the posters SEARCH first, if a question has been answered 4 times that day, I'm going to be mean.
And do NOT post questions in development, that is my BIGGEST issue.
Agreed, Although only as a Member who has all but given up in asking for help around here. Its Great being part of a Community, But less so when the community almost turns on you because of your knowledge level.
I'm Fairly tech Savvy, but when I dont understand Something, I prefer to ask in the hope of some help, Athough at the moment I dont feel Inclined to as the pompous, Eliteists run riot around here for the time being, Pissing on anyone who dare ask a question.
Some people need to remember, Its only an easy answer if YOU know it, Not everyone does.
JAguirre1231 said:
I only sign if the posters SEARCH first, if a question has been answered 4 times that day, I'm going to be mean.
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It is nothing to sign. My point is that it is better to not say anything, then to be mean. I am not here to change your opinion, and I respect the work you do on here, but just feel that everyone needs to be nicer to one another.
killyouridols said:
Agreed, Although only as a Member who has all but given up in asking for help around here. Its Great being part of a Community, But less so when the community almost turns on you because of your knowledge level.
I'm Fairly tech Savvy, but when I dont understand Something, I prefer to ask in the hope of some help, Athough at the moment I dont feel Inclined to as the pompous, Eliteists run riot around here for the time being, Pissing on anyone who dare ask a question.
Some people need to remember, Its only an easy answer if YOU know it, Not everyone does.
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Having taught math at the University of Oregon for the past six years, I have learned that such an elitist attitude towards learning hurts everyone. I am a probabilistic researcher, and could make anyone on this forum feel incompetent with a few "simple" questions. We all have strengths and weaknesses, and touting yours above others, can never serve a beneficial purpose.
cloverdale said:
Having taught math at the University of Oregon for the past six years, I have learned that such an elitist attitude towards learning hurts everyone. I am a probabilistic researcher, and could make anyone on this forum feel incompetent with a few "simple" questions. We all have strengths and weaknesses, and touting yours above others, can never serve a beneficial purpose.
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At the Moment, it all feels like the Community is seperating almost, the exact opposite of what we (possibly) want to achive, all through total intollerance of other peoples knowledge threshold.
It feels like, for want of a half arsed comparison, a mechanic laughing at you because you couldn't fix your own engine. I have an Android Phone, am I expected to know how it works under the Bonnet Inside/Out, and if I asked a question to a Mechanic (XDA-User) would I expect to be made a mockery of, because I didnt have their level of Knowledge?
killyouridols said:
At the Moment, it all feels like the Community is seperating almost, the exact opposite of what we (possibly) want to achive, all through total intollerance of other peoples knowledge threshold.
It feels like, for want of a half arsed comparison, a mechanic laughing at you because you couldn't fix your own engine. I have an Android Phone, am I expected to know how it works under the Bonnet Inside/Out, and if I asked a question to a Mechanic (XDA-User) would I expect to be made a mockery of, because I didnt have their level of Knowledge?
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That is a good way to put it.
killyouridols said:
At the Moment, it all feels like the Community is seperating almost, the exact opposite of what we (possibly) want to achive, all through total intollerance of other peoples knowledge threshold.
It feels like, for want of a half arsed comparison, a mechanic laughing at you because you couldn't fix your own engine. I have an Android Phone, am I expected to know how it works under the Bonnet Inside/Out, and if I asked a question to a Mechanic (XDA-User) would I expect to be made a mockery of, because I didnt have their level of Knowledge?
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It is separating, and not necessarily for the best. I understand people don't have the same amount of knowledge, but most of this knowledge is readily available for those willing to spend the time to look for it.
Nobody on these forums started out as the Android gods, we all started out with the same amount of knowledge on Android. However we found out one thing and another thing, and so on, until we could piece the information together.
We're not asking for people to know everything, just enough to where somebody doesn't have to hold their hand through the entire process (i.e. If I give you some commands, you should know a where to input them [or at least have a general idea])
We're not asking for the world, just some common sense.
Anyways, good comparison
JAguirre1231 said:
It is separating, and not necessarily for the best. I understand people don't have the same amount of knowledge, but most of this knowledge is readily available for those willing to spend the time to look for it.
Nobody on these forums started out as the Android gods, we all started out with the same amount of knowledge on Android. However we found out one thing and another thing, and so on, until we could piece the information together.
We're not asking for people to know everything, just enough to where somebody doesn't have to hold their hand through the entire process (i.e. If I give you some commands, you should know a where to input them [or at least have a general idea])
We're not asking for the world, just some common sense.
Anyways, good comparison
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Very well put.
JAguirre1231 said:
It is separating, and not necessarily for the best. I understand people don't have the same amount of knowledge, but most of this knowledge is readily available for those willing to spend the time to look for it.
Nobody on these forums started out as the Android gods, we all started out with the same amount of knowledge on Android. However we found out one thing and another thing, and so on, until we could piece the information together.
We're not asking for people to know everything, just enough to where somebody doesn't have to hold their hand through the entire process (i.e. If I give you some commands, you should know a where to input them [or at least have a general idea])
We're not asking for the world, just some common sense.
Anyways, good comparison
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Correct. I, Along with a lot of others, dont WANT to be Spoon-Fed infomation, I'm one of those who like to study things and work it out myself if I can IMO the best way to gain Knowledge.
Many (Including yourself JAguirre) are very helpful, and no, no one needs to be GIVEN the infomation all the time, but when some are looking for a nudge in the right direction, all they are getting is a shove the other way.
What I can't stand is when others have to be polite jerks when asked for their personal opinion on a subject.
So I am all for this thread.
Coming from MMUS.US to this treatment, well I'm disappointed to see how immature this larger forum is...
I will help anyone I can provided they have posted in the right place.
I have never seen anyone on these forums getting flamed for asking a sensible question, most those that are is down to a sheer laziness displayed by a good few who can't spend five minutes reading the rules or doing a quick search.
As far as I'm concerned if that's there attitude then they deserve everything they get.
Harsh I. Know but that's just my opinion, I have run a fair few forums and getting tough is sometimes the only thing that gets through to them, being all nicely nicely you might as well throw the doors open and rename the place the nut house!
shadowch31 said:
I will help anyone I can provided they have posted in the right place.
I have never seen anyone on these forums getting flamed for asking a sensible question most those that are is down to a sheer laziness displayed by a good few who can't spend five minutes reading the rules.
As far as I'm concerned if that's there attitude then they deserve everything they get.
Harsh I. Know but that's just my opinion, I have run a fair few forums and getting tough is sometimes the only thing that gets through to them, being all nicely nicely you might as well throw the doors open and rename the place the nut house!
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I feel you on "that is what they deserve", but my point is that we can all be bigger than that and choose a better way in which to express our disapproval.
cloverdale said:
I feel you on "that is what they deserve", but my point is that we can all be bigger than that and choose a better way in which to express our disapproval.
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To be honest no matter how you word things someone somewhere will decide to take offence. I truly believe the best policy would be a standardized reply to them something along the lines of...
This post is in an inappropriate place. Please spend five minutes reading the forum rules stickied at the top of this forum and please contact a mod to move this to the appropriate place. Thank you.
Once seen in a thread that should then be left alone by other members until such time it is moved. That way stopping the crap that can go on and will admit to being involved with myself sometimes.
h
shadowch31 said:
To be honest no matter how you word things someone somewhere will decide to take offence. I truly believe the best policy would be a standardized reply to them something along the lines of...
This post is in an inappropriate place. Please spend five minutes reading the forum rules stickied at the top of this forum and please contact a mod to move this to the appropriate place. Thank you.
Once seen in a thread that should then be left alone by other members until such time it is moved. That way stopping the crap that can go on and will admit to being involved with myself sometimes.
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This is the right direction in which we should be moving. I am not going to let people walk all over me, but at the same time it is not okay to use the forum as a way to express anger (which we all have too much of).
I have been using this site for almost three long years. I rarely post but I do feel there is a change in the way things feel on here. I have modded and maxed out five devices of my own and could not even count what I have ,in one way or another, passed on to people where I work. I agree that people should at least put out some kind of effort to find an answer on their own. However, the search option ,for most people, just leads to information overload. Most of the posts are in a language that 99% of the newer members cannot understand. This site started out as a place for people to share what they have learned. It feels more like and exclusive club everyday now. Please people, do the world a favor. Be patient, listen, and help a newb. We were not born XDA addicts. We became them. Someone helped you once, so be kind and help others. At least be respectfull. Common human decency goes a long way. Help a fellow out. The world needs more teachers. And that folks is my rant...........
I have no problem respecting people who deserve it. If someone takes the time to read the stickies, post in the right place and search (even a little), they're fine in my book. But when theres already 6 open threads in one week in any particular forum on the same subject, and you open up a seventh, that doesnt deserve respect.
Dont get me wrong, it doesnt deserve noobish disrespect either, but I'm not going to be inclined to help that person. Perhaps thats what we all ought to do: instead of slamming people for asking the same questions over and over, we just ignore them.
Here's my pact: http://bit.ly/14d7yE
jubeh said:
Here's my pact: http://bit.ly/14d7yE
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I was wondering how long before you shared your ideas :b
no one deserves respect if they fail to respect others
they should have 1 strike each time they go against rules including cursing or discrimination.
Honestly I am starting to get sick at the attitude of some of the members of this forum. It takes more time to ***** than to just simply skip the post and go to the next one.
As the forum gets bigger (XDA today is huge!) you will have simply no way of avoiding these kinds of posts. Telling them to go search or being rude to anyone is NOT going to help.
This used to be strictly a developer forum but with all the press it's getting, the site has been growing a lot over the past few years, and by being an ass you're insulting the very people that are helping this site grow, and even those saying HUGE THANKS by donating money to you for your hard work. How rude is that?
C'mon, let's be more upbeat, forgiving and helpful towards our fellow members and let the actual moderators do their jobs.
/rant
It's 50/50 I just avoid reading something if I know I might get a littlke snarky about it and I agree with some of what you're saying. It had someone today that made a thread asking for something that was literally 3 threads down from his post. I found that rather annoying. But still pointed him in the right direction. NOT everyone is as patient as some of the members here. Just saying.
Kshawn said:
It's 50/50 I just avoid reading something if I know I might get a littlke snarky about it and I agree with some of what you're saying. It had someone today that made a thread asking for something that was literally 3 threads down from his post. I found that rather annoying. But still pointed him in the right direction. NOT everyone is as patient as some of the members here. Just saying.
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I don't mind when people flame them for not searching...as long as they then answer the question (like you). Because it is so annoying down the road when you are searching an issue...and a thread comes up with your exact problem...and the only replies are telling the person to go search..when that's what you're doing!
There comes a time when people get to the breaking point with lazy people not wanting to search. In those instances it is absolutely infuriating, particularly with someone posting like was done earlier where the answer to his question was literally on the same page... Not only that, it was in the dev forum to boot.
I'm sorry but it doesn't do the community any good to have people come join who contribute nothing to the forum but enrage everyone who has to tell them to UTFSE...
EtherealRemnant said:
There comes a time when people get to the breaking point with lazy people not wanting to search. In those instances it is absolutely infuriating, particularly with someone posting like was done earlier where the answer to his question was literally on the same page... Not only that, it was in the dev forum to boot.
I'm sorry but it doesn't do the community any good to have people come join who contribute nothing to the forum but enrage everyone who has to tell them to UTFSE...
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^^^^^
This.
We are a development forum, this isn't the place to get hand held and walked through the same idiots guide 30 times with pictures and line by line instructions. I have no problems helping people that want to help themselves. Seeing, "Why can't i flash this" when they aren't even rooted, have nand locked and never bothered to even check the stickies angers me to no end.
We were all noobs once and we learned really quickly to search, read and then read some more. When you think you know what you have to do then you should read some more. Then try.
Many here flash development kernels and then we end up with 15 pages of 55 fps OMG. Camera is broke! Can we fix it? OMG I have an epson with screen tearing I'm going to return this pos! Nova panel no fix? Dude I'm returning it for an epson!
Don't even get me started on the cross device posts and people threatening to return their device. Return the damn thing. I don't need you to justify my decisions. I also don't equate my penis size with my phone so; grats the Iphone records 720p awesome if that is what you need then by all means help yourself. No need to post. No need to post "I love my EVO" Threads in some lame attempt to counter act the negativity of another device doing something better than yours. Take that stuff to one of the other laid back forums where people aren't actively trying to fix problems.
Grims said:
I don't mind when people flame them for not searching...as long as they then answer the question (like you). Because it is so annoying down the road when you are searching an issue...and a thread comes up with your exact problem...and the only replies are telling the person to go search..when that's what you're doing!
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Why should I waste my time digging the link up for them? Then they are just going to expect it EVERY time and we will keep getting the same posts from the same people who are too lazy to take the time and search and read.
Tough call, I am relatively new here but I help a lot at other forums and this stuff happens everywhere. Some days I bite my lip and some days I am a smart ass.
I definately agree that if you decide to reply you should say something useful so to not populate everyone elses search results with useless info. Of course the bad part about ignoring a noob's post is that they will then keep bumping it themselves until someone tells them to go search....so you can't win!
The other day when I posted at another forum that progress was being made on nova panels and the 30fps cap I flat out told them I wasn't going to post the link because the developers needed the thread to work. I of course credited xda just didn't give them the thread.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk
EtherealRemnant said:
I'm sorry but it doesn't do the community any good to have people come join who contribute nothing to the forum but enrage everyone who has to tell them to UTFSE...
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Actually, by telling them to just search and not answer their question, we will ultimately HURT those who are actually UTFSE....Google. By responding to them you are BUMPING the thread. Either let it die, let a moderator take care of it or simply tell them to search, but point them to right direction kindly and with respect.
It's pretty apparent that UTFSE is a common issue and maybe you can modify behavior through the forum itself? I don't see why the forum can't search out the keywords being used, sentences and such and force the user to "review" previous postings prior to making a new one? It could even go as far as to have them review and check off certain starred postings "before" making a new one. I have been blasted on other forums for not searching and thus I learned my lesson very quickly. Since it is such a common issue on many different boards, I would think someone could come up with a solution.
My .02-
I don't know how much I agree with the OP. I have been using these forums for maybe a year or two at this point and for the most part the balance seems to be 80% helpful 20% trolls. I figure that everywhere, in any forum there are always going to be trolls but on the whole XDA has ALWAYS been helpful. Maybe I'm just lucky and havent had to deal with too many trolls but either way, while I agree with the OP, not sure how large scale of a problem this really is.
I think one of the biggest problems is search itself. I can find my way around ok, but even searching can take an inordinate amount of time.
People tend to take the path of least resistance, so if they have two choices: search or ask, they'll take the option that requires the least effort--they'll ask. So even though they get *****ed at about searching, they'll still just ask because they're likely to get an answer in a few minutes without having to do any work.
I believe the answer, and what would help this community the most, is to consolidate the most requested information in a SINGLE SIMPLE place. I've checked out the wikis, but to be honest, things move so fast here, even the wikis get out of date quickly.
Consider some of the most asked newb questions:
"How do I flash this"
"I can't get adb to work"
"When will it be out"
"My battery sucks, what do I do"
Most of this information is readily accessible with a search, but the advice is varied as much as the individual results. For those of us who understand what we're reading and who can filter the wheat from the chaff, tinkering is great fun. For others, they just want expert and reliable information that works.
How do we put that together?
For example, I've seen advice such as: "To save your battery, remove the people widget." I get four hours of battery @ 100% with the people widget, so am I lucky? Is that bad advice? At best, it appears anecdotal. What we owe the community, and the newb offenders that generated this topic is fact based, concise advise that is easy to read, easy to obtain, and easy to download.
I also think XDA should start adding moderators commensurate with its growth. Moderators should DELETE DELETE DELETE posts that burn time and energy when this information is readily available. XDA is nothing but a big ass database of information, and like any other database: Garbage in, Garbage out. We need to keep the forums clean with relevant information.
I agree with the OPs original aims: We should be gracious to newcomers and help people out. I'm sick and tired of reading snarky "go search you dumbass" posts, but I also agree, it does get REAL OLD seeing the same old "I flashed this and now I'm bootlooping, OMG, someone help me now"
One last point and I'll shut-up: The devs spend WAY TOO MUCH time doing bull**** troubleshooting. If we all stepped up and took care of the basic PD for their work, they'd be free to keep doing what we really want them doing and that's improving their ROMS, Apps, Themes etc. So while we work on figuring out how to manage information, you can best help out by answering every question you can so your friendly dev can keep coding.
Apologize for the rant...
What a waste of thread space on XDA.
Why enable dependence in people? They either learn it the right way, and learn to read on their own, or they should just leave and never come back. Once you've been here a while and see the baffling amount of stupidity and laziness that is exhibited by people who just "expect" everything to be served to them, I couldn't give a flying f**k if I'm nice to them or not.
On the other hand, if it's obvious that the person has done his own homework and is still unable to reach some sort of consensus on the matter, or is just trying to get affirmation on what he's about to do with his phone, then by all means for helping the person and making sure he doesn't end up with an electronic-has-been-brick.
XDA is not a handheld daycare center. I'd rather XDA grow slowly with people that are actually worth having, than having XDA grow like mushrooms overnight but filled with spoiled, self-justifying narcissists on what they deem should be their right when it comes to simple forum etiquette and common sense.
PoisonWolf said:
What a waste of thread space on XDA.
Why enable dependence in people? They either learn it the right way, and learn to read on their own, or they should just leave and never come back. Once you've been here a while and see the baffling amount of stupidity and laziness that is exhibited by people who just "expect" everything to be served to them, I couldn't give a flying f**k if I'm nice to them or not.
On the other hand, if it's obvious that the person has done his own homework and is still unable to reach some sort of consensus on the matter, or is just trying to get affirmation on what he's about to do with his phone, then by all means for helping the person and making sure he doesn't end up with an electronic-has-been-brick.
XDA is not a handheld daycare center. I'd rather XDA grow slowly with people that are actually worth having, than having XDA grow like mushrooms overnight but filled with spoiled, self-justifying narcissists on what they deem should be their right when it comes to simple forum etiquette and common sense.
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Gotta agree 100%.
Give a man a fish (or thread link) and you feed him for a day... Teach him to fish (or search) and you feed him for a lifetime.
PoisonWolf said:
What a waste of thread space on XDA.
Why enable dependence in people? They either learn it the right way, and learn to read on their own, or they should just leave and never come back. Once you've been here a while and see the baffling amount of stupidity and laziness that is exhibited by people who just "expect" everything to be served to them, I couldn't give a flying f**k if I'm nice to them or not.
On the other hand, if it's obvious that the person has done his own homework and is still unable to reach some sort of consensus on the matter, or is just trying to get affirmation on what he's about to do with his phone, then by all means for helping the person and making sure he doesn't end up with an electronic-has-been-brick.
XDA is not a handheld daycare center. I'd rather XDA grow slowly with people that are actually worth having, than having XDA grow like mushrooms overnight but filled with spoiled, self-justifying narcissists on what they deem should be their right when it comes to simple forum etiquette and common sense.
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Finally! I couldn't agree more.
I will have to say that I think XDA desperately needs a wiki-post forum feature like the ones on slickdeals.net or fatwallet.
Would save a ton of time on these massive threads with posts that might have outdated info.
jmxp69 said:
I think one of the biggest problems is search itself. I can find my way around ok, but even searching can take an inordinate amount of time.
Most of this information is readily accessible with a search, but the advice is varied as much as the individual results. For those of us who understand what we're reading and who can filter the wheat from the chaff, tinkering is great fun. For others, they just want expert and reliable information that works.
How do we put that together?
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I couldn't disagree with this more. XDA is not an end user support forum, it is a forum for exploring new development techniques and ways to hack devices. The main purpose of XDA, in my opinion, is NOT to provide sweet consice fully working solutions. The purpose is to share information that leads up to finding complete solutions.
If new users want to find easy answers then they should use another forum, such as AndroidForums, which do a pretty good job of only linking back to XDA if it is a complete solution. If users want to use XDA then they need to deal with SEARCHING through the developmental process.
While the constant occurrence of people refusing to search on their own is annoying, I find the flat out disgust for anything not Android (or w/e forum you're in) to be painfully immature. It happens everywhere but there are too many posts on here that sound like a 12 year old "dissing" some other kid in school (iPhone the majority of the time).
06ms6 said:
I find the flat out disgust for anything not Android (or w/e forum you're in) to be painfully immature. It happens everywhere but there are too many posts on here that sound like a 12 year old "dissing" some other kid in school (iPhone the majority of the time).
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Depends on how it is done. Personally I enjoy the friendly banter between IPhone an Android.
And it is interesting to compare issues between devices.
ramiss said:
Depends on how it is done. Personally I enjoy the friendly banter between IPhone an Android.
And it is interesting to compare issues between devices.
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Comparing is good. Some people have used the same phone for a year or two and are just now experiencing a new handset or even a new operating system.
It is when the whole one-sided "fanboy" bickering happens...that the thread goes to sh-t
Hi,
Here are some ideas and thoughts on how I would try improving the overall tone in the forum through moderation and rules. This thread is by no means intended as any demands or criticism, it's just what I think could help. It's also not written with anyone specific in mind.
First off I would like to see posters refrain from personal attacks, this goes both for intentional trolls as well as those reacting to trolling. If the "no personal attacks" rule was enforced more we would get rid off a lot of the hostility in here.
Asking questions
Just saying "RTFF", "Use search, you noob" and so on is pretty counter-productive. Which search terms to use aren't always obvious so a lot of the times it's better to go for an approach like prefacing the answer with: "That question has been asked and answered many times before, try searching first and checking FAQs". The point comes across, the poster gets his answer and hopefully a potentially valuable member isn't scared off. Everyone's a noob at some point.
Personally I encourage asking questions but some people might find that annoying so I propose two things:
1. Either labeling the thread accordingly, like "No questions" or stating that in the original post.
2. Leave the job of moderating questions to the OP. If you don't want to answer then don't say anything, slamming the question doesn't help anything.
General conduct
There are forum rules for this already so I won't go into detail too much. I just wish that people would skip the insults and personal attacks. If you want to criticize something then criticize the subject not the person. Calling someone an idiot and flaming them doesn't do any good. That goes for the spelling and grammar police too.
Thoughts on moderation
My suggestion would probably increase the moderators workload but I feel it might be necessary. Posting a quick motivation when locking a thread is great, keep at it. Let the OP of the thread dictate the tone in it and only go after rule violations unless the complaints come from the OP himself. If the OP still interacts in a thread even after it's veered way off-topic you could ask him to edit the topic to reflect this. Threads can be seen as conversations and those are seldom static so going OT is almost inevitable.
Just a few thoughts, feel free to comment on them.
You're an idiot loser who likes to lick iPhones.
(AKA: I agree with your ideas and wish to suscribe to your newsletter.)
Its not the tone only in X10 forum, you can find the same thing else where. But thanks for putting together this nice notes and helpful instruction to behave right. Before anyone sign up for a new account they should pass a test by doing that they are forced to read all these notes. Its the nature of human that thinks he or she is right all the time and knows better that everyone else, just like me.
Well, I hope people get the point and stop bashing each other over some none sense problems.
Nimche said:
Its not the tone only in X10 forum, you can find the same thing else where. But thanks for putting together this nice notes and helpful instruction to behave right. Before anyone sign up for a new account they should pass a test by doing that they are forced to read all these notes. Its the nature of human that thinks he or she is right all the time and knows better that everyone else, just like me.
Well, I hope people get the point and stop bashing each other over some none sense problems.
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I singled out this board simply because I have no experience from the other parts. You could even make a case that the issues mentioned are universal in all forums with lots of users. I've seen the things I talk about happen other places too and how well similar guidelines have worked so it might be worth a shot.
ddewbofh said:
I singled out this board simply because I have no experience from the other parts. You could even make a case that the issues mentioned are universal in all forums with lots of users. I've seen the things I talk about happen other places too and how well similar guidelines have worked so it might be worth a shot.
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Don't get me wrong. What I was trying to say was that reminders are awesome and I do really appreciate your time putting your thoughts on here for us and I will be the first one to follow. I do respect XDA.
Yeah, I got your point. I just wanted to elaborate on why i talked about the X10 forum in my post and not forums in general.
1. A FAQ listed on each section. I know we have Wiki, but its usually outdated and hard to navigate. There really is no need for gigantic lists, but simple things like how to root, use odin, use clockwork, install roms/themes, etc... can be put there along with a warning on asking questions which have already been posted on the FAQ.
2. More Mods! I think just one or two more mods can help the forums a lot and clean things up.
3. Warnings for people who post questions that have already been answered on the front page of a thread or faq followed by a temp ban if they continue.
I'm really tired of the cycle of
- Dumb question posted
- Followed by "read the damn thread or use the damn search button"
- Followed by "Hey you were a noob once and theres no harm in answering the question you ass along with lengthy answer on the question that will inevitable be asked 10 more times in the near future"
- Continue flame war that now has nothing to do with the thread anymore
You enable people by holding their hands. Don't be an enabler. If you managed to find out how to do all this crap on your own, they can too. At most you should point them to the right thread and let them read up on it on their own so they can further their own education.
4. Don't PM the Devs for requests. They have enough work on their hands and don't need to be flooded. Remember the rule of think before you speak? Try thinking before you PM.
Anyhoo, there was a bunch more, but I'm sure you guys/gals have other ideas.
riceknight said:
1. A FAQ listed on each section. I know we have Wiki, but its usually outdated and hard to navigate. There really is no need for gigantic lists, but simple things like how to root, use odin, use clockwork, install roms/themes, etc... can be put there along with a warning on asking questions which have already been posted on the FAQ.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't understand why the "[How To] Return to Stock / Fix Bricked Epic" thread is not sticked.
If someone posts they bricked their phone and needs help you post the link to that thread and lock it.
I like the sentiment of this thread but fear it might be taken the wrong way. Whosdaman is really a wonderful guy and has been very helpful to me but it seems like he is very busy (and who can blame him for dealing with things outside of the interwebs?) so I support this I would also like to issue a blanket "Thank you for your hard work" to Whosdaman.
Seeing as this is a collection of developers I don't see why we don't customize the forum itself.
I don't see any reason we can't flag the development and Q/A threads for every phone. Then, if "is this a question" is set to yes, automatically put it in that phone's Q/A forum. On top of which we could add a "You are posting in the development forum, this is reserved for people developing for [insert phone]. Please check the box below to confirm that you are developing something you wish to share." anytime people posted in the development forum.
Obviously people can still screw it up, if nothing else on purpose, but we can expect people who have never been on the forums to know how the forums are laid out, usually by reading the rules, which never happens, to sort their own, or we can make it as self sorting as possible.
Sounds like whosedaman just needs some support. Perhaps another mod added to help out. We all have to keep in mind that these guys don't get paid for this and real life always trumps forums life. Just my thought on this.
Sent from my Epic while i should be working
I was wondering why there was so much confusion in this forum, as I really liked the forums I used for the month I had a Moment before the Epic dropped. Was there ever a forum on here for the moment??? I couldnt find one, so I checked sdx, which I remember lurking back then and found my answer. Why can't Xda have 'child forums', with descriptions of where and why to post things?? They have a 'market' forum section for ROMs, etc, which we here are using development exclusively. I understand why, but it seems its this way here because of limited tools for organizing, can this sites software not do that? It is completely logical and intuitive to post questions directly regarding development or roms in the development section if you are new... I would have expected a sub-forum for roms only, or at least some direction other than after the fact... usually unless its horribly out of order, whosdaman is pretty polite about it, and given the feelings regarding this device, things get silly in here. Anyways, yes, at least sticky all roms and things 'coolguy' or whatever dont warrant flaming, and then politely notify the new people that questions regarding development actually get booted over to general, where intuitively people would assume GENERAL questions like 'do you like gmail or the stock app better?'.
More mods? Better structure? Who has control over this? Are there any experienced volunteers that can help whosdaman out with his daunting task?
We need to expect more 'joined in Dec 2010' and later members as every idiot with a blog and engadget included seem to think this site and forum are the authority, even over Sprint and Samsung (if XDA says 2.2 is dropping, it must be true, head over there and complain about it). NOTHING against new members, just that there is little direction other than the 'rules' that most people think are just 'dont flame, no kiddie porn... etc...' Dont get all elitist because people couldnt figure out your simple, non-intuitive structure because its their first 5 mins here.
Love this forum, but its like people are baited into getting flamed by assuming this forum runs like most any other... I thought I saw the end of this when I refused to go to another BBC chat... guess not.
If you feel that you must deputize yourself, please, copy the link to the wiki, rules, etc and paste them in misplaced, repeat threads and leave it at that.
since this is a fluff post, BigJim, whats the 1488 stand for??? Just curious...
ungovernable1977 said:
since this is a fluff post, BigJim, whats the 1488 stand for??? Just curious...
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Pardon? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'a fluff post'. I sincerely hope Whosdaman reads this thread and takes into account that there are some of us who would genuinely like to help him make our forums a more manageable place to browse and share ideas/roms/themes/etc. I am in no way asking for myself to be made a mod but rather I believe there are people here who would make good mods and I hope that WDM sees that we support him and want to help him make our community more accessible!
I'm willing to be a mod here I have experience and would know and how to handle things here...
Admins or mods pm me
sent from my Epic 4G
riceknight said:
1. A FAQ listed on each section. I know we have Wiki, but its usually outdated and hard to navigate. There really is no need for gigantic lists, but simple things like how to root, use odin, use clockwork, install roms/themes, etc... can be put there along with a warning on asking questions which have already been posted on the FAQ.
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Click to collapse
Did you do a search before posting this? There's already a thread on it, learn how to use the search.
Ok, that was my attempt at humor
ungovernable1977 said:
since this is a fluff post, BigJim, whats the 1488 stand for??? Just curious...
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I don't think this is fluff at all and whosdaman does deserve to be thanked for his, well, thankless work.
1488 is a race thing. They usually won't tell you what the ideology of it is in public. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words
Although I don't agree with the sentiment of the belief structure, I support their right to peacefully observe their beliefs.
Yeah I know that meaning its generally a tattooed target, was just hoping it was just some retarded interweb speak. Sorry to hear. Almost forgot what it was though... not many Boneheads around here, not anymore.
BTW, I respect Lady Gaga's work, although I dont like it, therefore I see no reason to put it in my username.... its ok, you have a right to be a Nazi in this country...
Regrettably, I do read almost every thread in this forum, and forums I maintain...
<--------- Look here, I have 8 forums to maintain full time, but 6 are dead lol
Yeah I do have a life outside this for sure. Not only am I a senior in High School, I am on the Mock Trial team, the Robotics Team, a Sales Representative for Sprint, and a Writer for BriefMobile.com
So yeah I would say I'm busy, but I look over the entire forum as much as I can. Shep211 has been extremely busy in his personal life, that's why I started helping.
It is a thankless job, it's a volunteer job. All free, I don't get paid. The only thanks comes from the owner of the site when I say "if you fix this the site will be better."
Besides all that I can single handedly control this entire forum. I know it sometimes looks cluttered and in a mess, but then again...the Development section is spotless, which is truely the only thing that matters. The General section is meant to be a mess because it's where everyone posts their questions and complaints.
There are applications to become a moderator here on XDA, you have to meet certain requirements to be considered and then be approved. No one of this forum knows my experience as a moderator unless you used GameBattles.com for PS3.
If you want to help me out the most, please please please, use the "Report Post" feature. Every reported post goes straight to my inbox, and I see every single one. Normally RP's get extra attention as they obviously have bothered someone enough to have it reported. 90% of the RP's are either Ghost or Kenvan.
The search feature would do alot of people good, it's nice to tell people to do something, but Report the post/thread and I'll take care of it. You clutter up the forum and threads by posting in threads saying to post in General, just report it. That's all.
Sure, I wish everyone searched because there are at least 5 can't root threads. I would rather merge them all but it too much work to find them. Like I said, let the noobs make their mistake. The members report the post, don't tell them they were wrong. I'll move it, shoot them a PM, and then post in their thread telling them where they should have posted. Then hopefully they will learn.
Thanks again,
WDM
kenvan19 said:
Pardon? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'a fluff post'. I sincerely hope Whosdaman reads this thread and takes into account that there are some of us who would genuinely like to help him make our forums a more manageable place to browse and share ideas/roms/themes/etc. I am in no way asking for myself to be made a mod but rather I believe there are people here who would make good mods and I hope that WDM sees that we support him and want to help him make our community more accessible!
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Sorry, fluff may have been a wrong choice of words, I was implying that as this has been talked about before, and ignored by the powers that be, I saw it was going to end up an off topic post eventually, or at least until the elitist post Nazis (no offense bigjim) came in and said how we are cluttering their precious first page of posts, because as most have trouble with the AMAZING search function, a lot here have a lot of trouble with 'next page', you dont even have to pick which page, it takes you right to the next one!
Sorry, this is just getting really retarded around here, oh and BigJim,apologies, last comment on your beliefs, if off topic, but being an anarcho-punk, its hard not to at least ask if that is REALLY what you are talking about.
hehe *blush* I've tried to resort to reporting posts lately as opposed to trying to deal with problems on my own. Hope its not too much of a burden.
THANK YOU whosdaman! that is a very simple way to deal with the clutter issue... didnt even realise what the report button was till i looked around for it. I agree that not replying, positive or negative is good, if its easier for you to redirect them (you could probably easily make a form letter, just sub in 'froyo', 'GPS', or 'search' and the rest is pretty much the same!)
So what of the ability to make sub forums??? to be able to have a section under Dev that is for general DEV RELATED questions would be cool... most people assume that General is for stock, non rooted phone discussion, and Development is for anything to do with development. I think I remember one called 'all things root'?? Idunno, but you get the idea. So what is the plausability of this?? not possible with site software? Too much work??? Just curious, I have asked in similar threads and I think you were too busy with other stuff... I tend to avoid PM especially if it is something someone else may be able to answer, as we all know, mods are busy, especially in this forum. Thanks for all your hard work!
I certainly appreciate all the hard work Whosdaman has been doing with these forums, but unless he enjoys handling all this, wouldn't an extra mod or two be helpful?
My biggest thing is the FAQ post. Someone asks questions, you can point and say you should have read that first. Like I said before, the Wiki is great, but its a little cluttered and outdated as well as being hard to edit. Having one person willing to just moderate that one thread would be so helpful.
It bugs me when the whole community seems to be represented by the lazy people who just spam post. There are plenty of helpful, polite and very well informed that get lost among the clutter. In fact, they probably outnumber the newbies but don't feel the need to post nonsense. For every idiot that asks a dumb question, there are probably 10 that actually do research and figure it out for themselves.
kenvan19 said:
hehe *blush* I've tried to resort to reporting posts lately as opposed to trying to deal with problems on my own. Hope its not too much of a burden.
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Nope, I love you and ghost for reporting post. I always look forward to waking up and seeing 10 new PMs lol
ungovernable1977 said:
THANK YOU whosdaman! that is a very simple way to deal with the clutter issue... didnt even realise what the report button was till i looked around for it. I agree that not replying, positive or negative is good, if its easier for you to redirect them (you could probably easily make a form letter, just sub in 'froyo', 'GPS', or 'search' and the rest is pretty much the same!)
So what of the ability to make sub forums??? to be able to have a section under Dev that is for general DEV RELATED questions would be cool... most people assume that General is for stock, non rooted phone discussion, and Development is for anything to do with development. I think I remember one called 'all things root'?? Idunno, but you get the idea. So what is the plausability of this?? not possible with site software? Too much work??? Just curious, I have asked in similar threads and I think you were too busy with other stuff... I tend to avoid PM especially if it is something someone else may be able to answer, as we all know, mods are busy, especially in this forum. Thanks for all your hard work!
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Click to collapse
I have no control over sub-forums. And right now it is only me working on the entire Epic forum. Like I said shep211 is gone atm.
svetius is in charge of the entire site, and I've talked to him about improvements that can be made. I wouldn't bother him too much or he'll just ignore ya. Most of the time the only things he is interested is fixing errors with the site itself. Right now I don't think we are in the area of reorganizing the entire site.
ok, so adding a subforum is not possible? Or is it a decision to make the structure uniform across the whole site? Just thinking, because this forum is like maximum security, different from the rest... or so it would seem...
I'm not so sure making more areas, and thus more chances to be wrong, is a good way to combat posting in the wrong area.
If you have a rom question, ask it in the rom thread. All that would happen if there were subforums for things in development, and discussion of things in development is we'd have 37 threads about how "I just discovered ___ doesn't work in [rom]" instead of 50 posts about it in the rom thread.
(Not to mention you'd then be blurring the line of when it is or isn't ok to post in the DEV forum, where as now, if the person bothers to read, there's a pretty clear cut "If you aren't about to post about the thing you just developed, GTFO" rule.)
Like many, I was more than saddened with what happenned on XDA/X10 forii regarding some development threads yesterday.
Without wanting to start yet another flame war, some suggestions to help to try to prevent this and other nastiness from repeating itself in the future:
TO ALL USERS
- XDA is a space meant for collaboration and sharing information. Use it for that
- XDA is not a chat room. Posts just to thank or put down another user do nothing to help its purpose (There is a reason for the "Thanks" button).
...Nor do posts whose only content is "Use the search tool" or "posted previously in this thread" (w/o further information) or similar - while some people may in fact be lazy enough to not to search/look in some cases it's kind of hard to look through 300+ pages of posts to find 1 link or piece of information. Or to sort through hundreds of hits to a search. If you know the answer to a question, please share it. If not, welll....don't say anything.
- USE THE SEARCH TOOL and HAVE A LOOK AT A FEW PAGES of the thread of interest before posting the question .Likely you will find your answer and it helps PREVENTING threads from reaching the aforementioned 300+ pages, of which maybe like 30 pages actually contain INFORMATION.
- REMEMBER that what you are getting, you are getting for free. That applies both to stuff developed and put up on XDA, be it ROMS, tweaks, patches, whatever and to the wonderful people behind XDA - moderators, etc... whose work is often forgotten. If we as users can't be expected to read through all posts in a forum, why should we expect mods to have to act as if they had the time to do this?
- Having said that, if you like a development/tip/tweak, whatever, use the thanks button and leave it at that. If you don't like something, leave it at that. Posts to the effect of "You are God" or "You sleep with the devil" do nothing but mess with egos. And this forum is about messing with mobile computing platforms, not egos.
TO MODERATORS
- Please refrain from deleting threads. If they get out of hand (and they sometimes do) I humbly suggest that you (a) close them and/or (b) ban any offending users, albeit if only temporarily (aka "suspension").
For all the crap that may have gotten into a thread, most if not all threads contain a lot of useful information that may/will get lost if the thread is deleted. so the non-guilty parties get shafted as badly as the guilty. And I prefer to think that the majority of users are actually interested in moving things forward.
- Just an idea - but rather than having a simple requirement to have an account to post, would it be possible for you guys to set up a system whereby certain forums could only be posted to by users of a certain seniority - and preferably with a distinction to starting new threads or replying to existing threads.
Following on to this, I believe that the seniority requirements can be improved in a relatively easy way - maturity comes from experience, which is not necessarily related to # of posts (any fool can type 30 irrelevant posts in a day). What would you say to a system where, in addition to a minimum # of posts, a user needs to have been a member/at his previous seniority level for a certain amount of time? That should not be too difficult to implement and would help people get into the feel of things before blabbing off. Short tempers usually can't hold off a couple of weeks/months...
- THANKS for this great place!!!! Your efforts are too often forgotten.
TO DEVELOPERS
- Thanks for your time, effort, patience and hard work. We really appreciate it!
- Please consider that the strongest point of Android (hey, I'm posting this to the X10 forum, which is Android, no beef against WM or any other platforms) is that it is OPEN, meaning we can ALL work on it, improve it, tweak it, etc...
- That means that users can by default consider whatever is posted as being OPEN and can do likewise. If you feel that whatever you have developed/done is NOT open, then say so. And if you want a stronger protection for your work, or users aren't respecting your work, then publish it under some kind of license so everyone else knows what to expect and you have legal grounds - GPL, LGPL, ASL, Berkeley, etc... there are a number of them to choose from.
- Collaboration means being open to new ideas, praise and constructive criticism. Attitudes like "THIS **** IS MINE AND NOONE TOUCHES IT" (pardon the profanity) isn't really very constructive in an open source environment. You are not god. Help and inspiration may come from even the least probable places.
Well, that was long-winded. If I have offended anyone (I hope not) pardonnez-moi
"
...Nor do posts whose only content is "Use the search tool" or "posted previously in this thread" (w/o further information) or similar - while some people may in fact be lazy enough to not to search/look in some cases it's kind of hard to look through 300+ pages of posts to find 1 link or piece of information. Or to sort through hundreds of hits to a search. If you know the answer to a question, please share it. If not, welll....don't say anything."
actually. members are supposed to read the thread and look for answers. thus eliminating redundant and repeat posts
All in all though ideas that are already in place
If people respect the rules then good things happen
And as for not deleting threads
if the dev leaves then there no point leaving it open. otherwise we jsut clean them
as someone who runs a forum and moderates, deleting people's posts for no reason, is pretty poor. Mine was deleted for no reason and no explanation. The situation in the end was to the poorer for XDA. As a DEV left, and could be followed up by more. Instead of a calm hand, all members got was a heavey handed approach, threatening bans. Sorry that is a crap way. and in end has lost XDA many members. how sad
-PiLoT- said:
actually. members are supposed to read the thread and look for answers. thus eliminating redundant and repeat posts
All in all though ideas that are already in place
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Sure thing - but adding an additional post to JUST say "look in the thread" only makes it longer. No need since the rule is already in place, right?
-PiLoT- said:
And as for not deleting threads
if the dev leaves then there no point leaving it open. otherwise we jsut clean them
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Click to collapse
Precisely - CLOSE them - they will take up some disk space and trickle down through the thread (being closed).
Cleaning some threads would take you guys ages (500+ pages in some cases).
Deleting them however loses information, whether the dev has left or not (he may always come back as has happened...) and only fans flames for conspiracy theories and other idiocies...I do concede that leaving them there may also spur more garbage initially, but that will stop as the (closed) thread ages.
acmbc said:
Sure thing - but adding an additional post to JUST say "look in the thread" only makes it longer. No need since the rule is already in place, right?
yes but sometime sits the steps that people need to take since people will not read the rules
Precisely - CLOSE them - they will take up some disk space and trickle down through the thread (being closed).
Cleaning some threads would take you guys ages (500+ pages in some cases).
Deleting them however loses information, whether the dev has left or not (he may always come back as has happened...) and only fans flames for conspiracy theories and other idiocies...I do concede that leaving them there may also spur more garbage initially, but that will stop as the (closed) thread ages.
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the last lot of threads were closed not deleted
Crocodile1973 said:
as someone who runs a forum and moderates, deleting people's posts for no reason, is pretty poor. Mine was deleted for no reason and no explanation. The situation in the end was to the poorer for XDA. As a DEV left, and could be followed up by more. Instead of a calm hand, all members got was a heavey handed approach, threatening bans. Sorry that is a crap way. and in end has lost XDA many members. how sad
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some posts are deleted during a routine thread cleanup
Im not saying your suggestions have no merit.
im saying that some of them are already looked into and some wont work as weve tried them in the past
-PiLoT- said:
Im not saying your suggestions have no merit.
im saying that some of them are already looked into and some wont work as weve tried them in the past
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Click to collapse
Kudos to that. If it's been tried and not worked, my bad.
acmbc said:
Like many, I was more than saddened with what happenned on XDA/X10 forii regarding some development threads yesterday.
Without wanting to start yet another flame war, some suggestions to help to try to prevent this and other nastiness from repeating itself in the future:
TO ALL USERS
TO MODERATORS
TO DEVELOPERS
- Thanks for your time, effort, patience and hard work. We really appreciate it!
- Please consider that the strongest point of Android (hey, I'm posting this to the X10 forum, which is Android, no beef against WM or any other platforms) is that it is OPEN, meaning we can ALL work on it, improve it, tweak it, etc...
- That means that users can by default consider whatever is posted as being OPEN and can do likewise. If you feel that whatever you have developed/done is NOT open, then say so. And if you want a stronger protection for your work, or users aren't respecting your work, then publish it under some kind of license so everyone else knows what to expect and you have legal grounds - GPL, LGPL, ASL, Berkeley, etc... there are a number of them to choose from.
- Collaboration means being open to new ideas, praise and constructive criticism. Attitudes like "THIS **** IS MINE AND NOONE TOUCHES IT" (pardon the profanity) isn't really very constructive in an open source environment. You are not god. Help and inspiration may come from even the least probable places.
Well, that was long-winded. If I have offended anyone (I hope not) pardonnez-moi
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well, my 2 cents
i agree on the "users" part
on the "to moderators" part, i disagree
mods don't need to "refrain" from deleting threads, that's what mods do. they do it for specific reasons, not just because they are self-proclaimed e-gods with a ban hammer. if threads need closed or deleted, that's what mods are here for. also, this site is not a democracy. a lot of members don't seem to understand that petitions and moral support for offending members who were banned or threads closed/deleted, will not exactly unban/reopen. granted, i'm sure if there was a collaborated majority between the mods, it will. but users making 30+ separate threads on the same subject (or lately the same dev) only makes things worse. all of these trip apostles are doing more harm than good. i know all these recent trip threads annoy the crap out of me, i can only imagine the work and annoyance it brings moderators.
as far as the dev section of your post goes
you can't take info/sources from some, then accuse EVERY dev for using yours, making comments like "i'm going to download this and check the files for my sources". seriously, it's unprofessional and immature.
as far as the trip situation goes
i have no idea what happened last night, but, where as he may be a great dev, being a dev is NOT for him. he cannot take criticism, he wants to share nothing with other devs, he was not working collabratively with anyone to benefit the community, and honestly, he seems the have the attitude of a 14 y/o girl. how many times does one person need to "threaten with leaving", then never doing so. then upon realizing that not enough begs to stay filled his ego, actually leave only to make a sudden reappearance because, there's really no other dev site out there to the extent of xda.
this isn't the first time he's been gone, although i this time was not his choice, i'm sure he will be back again.
oh, one other thing, you go to any other sub-forum on xda, and there is no drama like there is on the x10 sections. seriously, did SE market these things specifically to 14 y/o drama queens?
svtfmook said:
well, my 2 cents
i agree on the "users" part
on the "to moderators" part, i disagree
mods don't need to "refrain" from deleting threads, that's what mods do. they do it for specific reasons, not just because they are self-proclaimed e-gods with a ban hammer. if threads need closed or deleted, that's what mods are here for. also, this site is not a democracy. a lot of members don't seem to understand that petitions and moral support for offending members who were banned or threads closed/deleted, will not exactly unban/reopen. granted, i'm sure if there was a collaborated majority between the mods, it will. but users making 30+ separate threads on the same subject (or lately the same dev) only makes things worse. all of these trip apostles are doing more harm than good. i know all these recent trip threads annoy the crap out of me, i can only imagine the work and annoyance it brings moderators.
as far as the dev section of your post goes
you can't take info/sources from some, then accuse EVERY dev for using yours, making comments like "i'm going to download this and check the files for my sources". seriously, it's unprofessional and immature.
as far as the trip situation goes
i have no idea what happened last night, but, where as he may be a great dev, being a dev is NOT for him. he cannot take criticism, he wants to share nothing with other devs, he was not working collabratively with anyone to benefit the community, and honestly, he seems the have the attitude of a 14 y/o girl. how many times does one person need to "threaten with leaving", then never doing so. then upon realizing that not enough begs to stay filled his ego, actually leave only to make a sudden reappearance because, there's really no other dev site out there to the extent of xda.
this isn't the first time he's been gone, although i this time was not his choice, i'm sure he will be back again.
oh, one other thing, you go to any other sub-forum on xda, and there is no drama like there is on the x10 sections. seriously, did SE market these things specifically to 14 y/o drama queens?
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I agree with you.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Trip's work, heck, I even use it on my phone these past months.
There's a post I made in "News about current circumstances" thread that explains my point extensively.
Also, I know it in my gut that he will be back for sure.
You know why?
He feeds on publicity and Modaco forums are too low-populated for his huge ego.
I hope though, that upon his return he will be much more sophisticated and reasonable,
for the sake of every one here.
One can always dream...
PS: I was a 14 year old girl 10 years ago and, man, I'm telling you, I was a major drama queen.
I want to believe I've grown out of it though.
I really think the ideas from the original post would be used in some way at least. Good post OP. Hope xda considers this. There are some great ideas here.
Sent from my X10i using XDA Premium App