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Ok first and foremost this is not just another post of someone complaining, in no way am i trying to offend or criticize this new device...these are simply observations made by a previous HTC owner (MDA/Herald/Wing) me...
I understand that the open source to "create" applications is fairly new not to mention all us G1 owners (ive had mine for lil more then a month). My concern is why are we seeing such "simple" programing in applications and things tht in reality none of us would ever use? Not to mention graphics what is going on...Look i have not created any nor have taken the time to even try to create applications, and if you or someone you know has, then my hats off to you, i envy you for knowing how and taking the time to...what im saying is why do all these new applications have so many bugs and in my opinion (cause that is all it is) are sub-par...i know its not really fair to compare to any other device on the market since it is the first of its kind, but im getting a little skeptical...am i alone in this? i find myself checking the android market every hour hoping for some sign to motivate me, but nothing so far aside from the obvious winners (youtube,maps,imeem,wheather channel etc...)...ill shut up now i sincerely was not trying to stir things up, and know/knew when i purcased the G1 it was the first of its kind and would probably take time to show its full potential, i just thought there were some things google had up its sleeve that were ready...does anyone have any insight or knowledge of better things to come...?
timace said:
Ok first and foremost this is not just another post of someone complaining, in no way am i trying to offend or criticize this new device...these are simply observations made by a previous HTC owner (MDA/Herald/Wing) me...
I understand that the open source to "create" applications is fairly new not to mention all us G1 owners (ive had mine for lil more then a month). My concern is why are we seeing such "simple" programing in applications and things tht in reality none of us would ever use? Not to mention graphics what is going on...Look i have not created any nor have taken the time to even try to create applications, and if you or someone you know has, then my hats off to you, i envy you for knowing how and taking the time to...what im saying is why do all these new applications have so many bugs and in my opinion (cause that is all it is) are sub-par...i know its not really fair to compare to any other device on the market since it is the first of its kind, but im getting a little skeptical...am i alone in this? i find myself checking the android market every hour hoping for some sign to motivate me, but nothing so far aside from the obvious winners (youtube,maps,imeem,wheather channel etc...)...ill shut up now i sincerely was not trying to stir things up, and know/knew when i purcased the G1 it was the first of its kind and would probably take time to show its full potential, i just thought there were some things google had up its sleeve that were ready...does anyone have any insight or knowledge of better things to come...?
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Personally, I find the plethora of apps encouraging, yes, some are more useful than others but the wide range of effort is fan-flippin-tastic.
MY biggest observation is that the Market place needs some severe MODERATOR intervention... the one star "i is first u goons" and "this app suks (because I am too stupid to read the intro to figure out what it is for) really really really needs to be cleaned up/out. (A perfect example is the UTC clock... it does EXACTLY what it says, true, the numbers in the display look like they are from a missile silo, but hey, it is a tribute to the UTC heritage...anyway, people bag on it because they have no idea why, what, or anything else about it... morons)
[/rant]
--M
demontefixo said:
Personally, I find the plethora of apps encouraging, yes, some are more useful than others but the wide range of effort is fan-flippin-tastic.
MY biggest observation is that the Market place needs some severe MODERATOR intervention... the one star "i is first u goons" and "this app suks (because I am too stupid to read the intro to figure out what it is for) really really really needs to be cleaned up/out. (A perfect example is the UTC clock... it does EXACTLY what it says, true, the numbers in the display look like they are from a missile silo, but hey, it is a tribute to the UTC heritage...anyway, people bag on it because they have no idea why, what, or anything else about it... morons)
[/rant]
--M
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i agree "first" comments are riduculous, and if you dont like the application from descrption then dont install it...positive criticism is more then welcome but "this sucks" is getting on my nerves...
timace said:
Ok first and foremost this is not just another post of someone complaining, in no way am i trying to offend or criticize this new device...these are simply observations made by a previous HTC owner (MDA/Herald/Wing) me...
I understand that the open source to "create" applications is fairly new not to mention all us G1 owners (ive had mine for lil more then a month). My concern is why are we seeing such "simple" programing in applications and things tht in reality none of us would ever use? Not to mention graphics what is going on...Look i have not created any nor have taken the time to even try to create applications, and if you or someone you know has, then my hats off to you, i envy you for knowing how and taking the time to...what im saying is why do all these new applications have so many bugs and in my opinion (cause that is all it is) are sub-par...i know its not really fair to compare to any other device on the market since it is the first of its kind, but im getting a little skeptical...am i alone in this? i find myself checking the android market every hour hoping for some sign to motivate me, but nothing so far aside from the obvious winners (youtube,maps,imeem,wheather channel etc...)...ill shut up now i sincerely was not trying to stir things up, and know/knew when i purcased the G1 it was the first of its kind and would probably take time to show its full potential, i just thought there were some things google had up its sleeve that were ready...does anyone have any insight or knowledge of better things to come...?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i agree with you; even though i love this phone there are a lot of things i dislike about it. the only advice i can give to you is to be patient. the phone has 'officially' been out for a little under a month and there is already so much improvements to it:
- 2 updates have already been rolled out,
- we have found a Root and a way to manually update it.
- we are beginning to see system folders moved to sdcard to save space(even though the phone should have came with more memory)
apps on the market are getting better i don't if you have seen the app "bubble". bubble is a basic bubble level that uses the accelerometer to see if something is level and changes as the phone changes orientation it may seem like a simple app but it shows that Google came come out with an update that uses the accelerometer to change orientation.
- first signs of on screen keyboards like akeyui, a7email and a7sms.
all of these improvements in about 3 weeks and tons more to come idk what anybody can complain about besides hardware issues
just wait come Jan 2009 the G1 isnt going to be anything like it is today.
demontefixo said:
Personally, I find the plethora of apps encouraging, yes, some are more useful than others but the wide range of effort is fan-flippin-tastic.
MY biggest observation is that the Market place needs some severe MODERATOR intervention... the one star "i is first u goons" and "this app suks (because I am too stupid to read the intro to figure out what it is for) really really really needs to be cleaned up/out. (A perfect example is the UTC clock... it does EXACTLY what it says, true, the numbers in the display look like they are from a missile silo, but hey, it is a tribute to the UTC heritage...anyway, people bag on it because they have no idea why, what, or anything else about it... morons)
[/rant]
--M
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yeah there need to be some serious clean up in th commenting sections, some of these comments might discourage people from developing apps for the G1, i think comments should strictly about the apps and not about being 1st or 151st, or bashing other commenters, and people definitely should not comment on an app the don't know how to use.
however developers should include directions on how to use their apps so people do not have to rely on commenting to try and figure out what it does and how it does it.
The point is the development muscle that has been put in the device is minor.I feel like the market is made by kids or teenagers that stopped uploading on youtube and are writing apps using ready made lego kits (APIs). The apps in the market are all basic stuff. There is not even a Divx player for this device available but 5 Video players using the Google provided APIs to play mp4 which only play SOME mp4 files not all.
I love the sliding, bubble and Gmail on it but I cant name too many more things I love. Not even a Navi that works properly. I really cant think of anything else I love about it. No office, word, excel, PDF, flash, divx. The SMS system is grouped together. The actual phone keyboard is beyond basic with no options. There are simply too many bugs on the phone operation itself like bluetooth etc.
Time flies google, we need apps that have more than 10 man-hours of software programming spent on it. Lets stop the growth of many timers and alarms in the market and get some real stuff out there. Microsoft has probably put in millions of development hours into WM and it was not until now that I realized this.
brooklynite said:
The point is the development muscle that has been put in the device is minor.I feel like the market is made by kids or teenagers that stopped uploading on youtube and are writing apps using ready made lego kits (APIs). The apps in the market are all basic stuff. There is not even a Divx player for this device available but 5 Video players using the Google provided APIs to play mp4 which only play SOME mp4 files not all.
I love the sliding, bubble and Gmail on it but I cant name too many more things I love. Not even a Navi that works properly. I really cant think of anything else I love about it. No office, word, excel, PDF, flash, divx. The SMS system is grouped together. The actual phone keyboard is beyond basic with no options. There are simply too many bugs on the phone operation itself like bluetooth etc.
Time flies google, we need apps that have more than 10 man-hours of software programming spent on it. Lets stop the growth of many timers and alarms in the market and get some real stuff out there. Microsoft has probably put in millions of development hours into WM and it was not until now that I realized this.
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muscle...DiVix...kids...office...flash...basic...bugs
words that stood out and i DEFINATELY agree
as i said before patience is the key here
the reason why there aren't many good programs out right know is because they are still in development, there are some apps that won google's app contest that are not on the market because they are still under development. developers take their to try and come out with a bug free app and you criticize them for taking to long however if they rush it and get it out with SOME bugs people crucify them. how long did you think it took for divx or flash to be developed for other phones?
why do people expect a phone thats been out for under a month to have the same capabilities as phones that been out for years?
how many phone do you know had divx support right out of the box or even one month after release? i estimate that divx support will be out before the end of the year.
i agree that apps on the market are going the the hole, especially with millions of the same type of apps, c'mon how many different weather apps do we need, how many background apps is necessary. but you got to admit out of the hundreds of apps on the market there are some good ones.
I'm waiting with great anticipation on the games for the g1. Sure i want cut copy and paste, document reader, full video player, full file manager and task manager as well as others but i'm dying to play nes games and others on this phone. The market is pretty lame in the games department but hey i got pacman, solitaire, and a few others free so i'm not gonna complain. I think the apps are very promising and there are a wide variety of them. Granted none of the crucial apps are out yet but i have quite a few on g1 that i love and got em all for free!!! We just have to be patient, i knew going in i would have to be.
All the apps are free. The hardware has only been in people's hands for a few weeks (at most). A serious developer, wanting to create the exact apps we're all hoping for, needs a heck of a lot more time. The SDK was fine, but any serious developer is going to want to log a lot of hours with a physical device (or several) to finalize the product.
And they're not going to do all that, for free.
This device has huge potential, and the reason we're seeing amaturish apps is because the only people who are willing to play around with creating apps for free are mostly hobbyists who want feedback to further their skills.
I predict that once the payment system is set up for the Market, the apps you're all stomping your feet about are going to show up.
The programs we're talking about are complex, writing them and testing them is time consuming, and I assume that they're going to be larger than the apps we're seeing now. It's entirely possible that some of these apps are almost finished, but are waiting for SD card loading to be added to the functionality before they can release them. Some may even be delayed by the announcement of the virtual keyboard -- they may want to integrate that for the launch of their apps.
I think two things need to happen before we're going to see the apps we all want.
-Pay system on Android Market
-The Ability for Apps to be installed and run from the SD card.
Until those two things happen, the App Store is going to be like it is. And it's also time you guys thought about something. The apps that are "missing" were never a secret, most of the complaints I see are about things that were known well before launch, or discovered the first week people had it in hand. If you didn't read up, that's your fault. If you read up and assumed things would be taken care of within one to two months (something no one promised you) that's also your fault.
I'll predict something for you right now, in light of the economy and everything else, it'll be 6 months to a year before HALF the apps we want are available and working. Now, that's just my estimate, but if that sounds "too long" to wait, then I'd invest in another phone rather than spending the next 6 months posting complaints like "why isn't _____ done yet? And where's the ______ app?!!"
Just my 2 cents
I have already heard many apps have been developed but the developers are waiting for the pay system which has already been annoucnced and is coming 3 months after launch.
I am similar to you... give it time and you will see the best things you have ever seen. I mean look at Linux... they have some awesome apps on most linux flavors that make me dual boot into linux just to have. I think this device will be the same as this was the entire purpose.
Google is updating features all the time in the git directory and it won't be long before they fix the main issues and then the developers will be looking at new things to give us.
So far the barcode readers alone seem like such a huge advantage as I haven't seen them on mobile devices before(at least none that worked)
brooklynite said:
The point is the development muscle that has been put in the device is minor.I feel like the market is made by kids or teenagers that stopped uploading on youtube and are writing apps using ready made lego kits (APIs). The apps in the market are all basic stuff. There is not even a Divx player for this device available but 5 Video players using the Google provided APIs to play mp4 which only play SOME mp4 files not all.
I love the sliding, bubble and Gmail on it but I cant name too many more things I love. Not even a Navi that works properly. I really cant think of anything else I love about it. No office, word, excel, PDF, flash, divx. The SMS system is grouped together. The actual phone keyboard is beyond basic with no options. There are simply too many bugs on the phone operation itself like bluetooth etc.
Time flies google, we need apps that have more than 10 man-hours of software programming spent on it. Lets stop the growth of many timers and alarms in the market and get some real stuff out there. Microsoft has probably put in millions of development hours into WM and it was not until now that I realized this.
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Click to collapse
Well you said my answer in your own post. The device has been out less than a month. That's nowhere near enough time to make those killer apps you're talking about. To google's credit they did put in things like street view with the compass mode and there are those apps you've talked about. It takes MONTHS to do real software developement so you're going to keep seeing more and more alarms and stuff until then.
seriously, does ANYBODY give a ratsass or even use streetview?
They should have made sure all the media stuff and the email was topnotcxh.
I agree 100% with the first post! Google should have prepaired Android better. There is a lot of competition out there and I would say by what I've seen so far they are light years behind. I did not expect that with all the money in the world Google couldn't release product that was better polished. I have put my G1 back in its box and I'm back to my unlocked Tilt, what sucks is going back to the old screen and Edge but its functinality that I need. I wish they made some kind of task aplication that I can put on the screen kind of likr thr picture frame that would display my tasks for the day. I have a Motorola ROKR E2 that runs Linux and there are more useful stuff for it out there. I desagree we have to wait untill we start paying for apliications, I believe Google can afford providing us with free functional software as more and more people will be using their services.
i love my g1, but i agree with these people that google didn't do enough...and i hope they're working to fix it.
i think that their whole "leave it in the hands of developers" approach was probably a mistake. they should have made all the basic applications like they did but also gone a step further to spice up the phone. i hope that google, in the new few updates, incorporates some more stuff, like OUTLOOK SYNC (i wuld love it if they changed the google calendar sync for windows into just google sync and have it sync everything with outlook....funambol right now sucks i have like 80 of each contact!)
they also should have made a GOOD video recorder / player, and even a better music player. they're trying to beat apple at multimedia, and are failing miserably.
they should add a decent on-screen keyboard and maybe even a task manager...or make it only have like 4 open tasks in the backgroudn...because i've noticed my g1 slowing down a lot after having a few apps open.
google should add a manual update button...i'm still on RC28 because i dont feel like installing the modified rc30 or plugging it in to update. have a freaking "UPDATE" button in the system info thing or something.
i think google needs more than 3 home screens...i've already filled all of mine up. they also should have added more widgets, like the guy above me said.
SELECTING TEXT SUCKS. i have to use the trackball to select a ltter of a word...on my windows mobile i could just tap on where i wanted it to be and at least it would get me within 1 or 2 letters...if i tap on a word on the g1 nothing happens!
we need to be able to install stuff to the sd card!
i think i'm missing a lot of things but i've only had the phone for 2 days and i've noticed all that...i hope developers DO step in if google is too stupid not to add more basic functionality.
/rant
Look at it this way currently there is no way to charge for apps that are developed. This is why we are seeing nothing but apps programed by independant programers some of which are good and some of which are useless. Once companies can charge for apps then it will make sence to put money into the development of better more porfessional apps. My suggestion is to just hold off on passing judgement untill the market is finished to where people that spend money in development can recoup those losses. I do think that the market place should have been finished before launch but what can you do.
coffeboy23 said:
Look at it this way currently there is no way to charge for apps that are developed. This is why we are seeing nothing but apps programed by independant programers some of which are good and some of which are useless. Once companies can charge for apps then it will make sence to put money into the development of better more porfessional apps. My suggestion is to just hold off on passing judgement untill the market is finished to where people that spend money in development can recoup those losses. I do think that the market place should have been finished before launch but what can you do.
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Agaqin, super lame of google.
We can get a bunch of usless wank programs, but not proepr ones, becasue they don't have the pay market ready.
Also, I think that certain things like exchange and a proper email client shoudl have been included.
And remember most people are new to development, don't know how many "this is my first try" apps I have seen. When you get that one that charges 20 bucks for the app... you will get another developer who will release it free and just ask for donations... I suggest donating whatever you can to the one that gives it free.
Henchman said:
Agaqin, super lame of google.
We can get a bunch of usless wank programs, but not proepr ones, becasue they don't have the pay market ready.
Also, I think that certain things like exchange and a proper email client shoudl have been included.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
google isnt the one entirely in charge of the market... tmobile is the one wanting money
neoobs said:
google isnt the one entirely in charge of the market... tmobile is the one wanting money
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Click to collapse
No, but it was google who shoudl ahve made sure that the basics were coveredf well.
The Camera I'm sure can take greta pics, but the controls suck.
The email is severly lacking.
No streaming video.
And they shoudl ahve elarnt form the iPhoen release, that push email fro MsExcahnge should have been there fromt he getgo.
Or the should have built a BB app, just like you can get for WinMo.
No, they focused on teenagers, not professionals.
neoobs said:
google isnt the one entirely in charge of the market... tmobile is the one wanting money
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Click to collapse
no....google is not taking any money but is giving 30% of all apps sold to the carriers...tmobile might be the one "wanting" money but they have no control over the app store at all.
I bought a g1 last year. I rooted my phone. I fell in love with android and the great community behind it. I am an avid cyanogen mod user.
Google basically ripped out the great fun, learning experimence, and day to day usage i now have in android.
I know how this community feels about 'warez'. I know how this community feels about cyanogen and his contribution to not only us but an 'open source' environment to cell phones.
Well basically what i am getting to is that cyanogen may be legally wrong but what if a developer were to release roms behind closed doors? To torrents and newsgroups and not officially have a face behind said rom. If a developer were to do that, would xda support threads pretaining to that rom? Would all of us still download and love a rom like we do now? Or am i just wrong for getting to that?
If this thread is deleted i understand, but to me i will abandon android if it fails to prosper by the community like true open source software is intended.
Give it time, there are work arounds for ROM makers. Google distributes these applications freely, which means all ROM developers have to do is remove those apps from the ROMs, and give you an application which installs them.
The Android scene is not dead. This sucks, but we will get over it, even without Google's help.
*edit, gary beat me to it..this is in re: to the original post
your not reading before you type...
Google is pissed about him including certain components that were not official yet or closed source. We get over that, and we are back in business. Everyone is way over-reacting, just wait...they will get it figured out. He just cant legally be quite so cutting-edge anymore
I've hard talks of a script that will automatically DL the apps that aren't allowed, I hope that happens soon .
I understand work arounds and what not but do i not have the legal right to use googles closed source apps now that i bought my g1? It is like buying a new car from ford and then ford telling manufacturers of aftermarket products (like air filters or tires) they cant sell them because ford owns the patent to the left head light circuit and it in some legal sense interfers.
A new set of tires on my car is just as damn harmful as using a cyanogen made rom on my phone. I own the hardware, i should be able to do with it as i see fit. Cyanogen doesnt make his roms available to those who dont already own an android licensed product and doesnt do his work for profit that google doesnt see.
They have a legal right yes, but why excersize that legal right when only those who support you already (and if you download cm roms you will more then likely be a future supporter) will end up with the crap end of the stick.
All the crap recently with apple and google voice i have thought to myself that apple will be getting what they deserve by sure to come fines from the fcc. Now google punches us all in the stomache for supporting them and their alledged open source cause. None of us here, including cyanogen, did any actual wrong. If it plays out how it is apparent they want it, everyone loses.
~~Tito~~ said:
I've hard talks of a script that will automatically DL the apps that aren't allowed, I hope that happens soon .
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our could we just not back up and put theme proper place in the update zips?
rondey- said:
I understand work arounds and what not but do i not have the legal right to use googles closed source apps now that i bought my g1? It is like buying a new car from ford and then ford telling manufacturers of aftermarket products (like air filters or tires) they cant sell them because ford owns the patent to the left head light circuit and it in some legal sense interfers.
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Your analogy is flawed because software cannot be treated the same as tangible items. Anyway, the issue at hand is not your license to use Google's closed-source apps, it is the unauthorized distribution of these apps by "ROM" cooks.
It's more than just a few apps that are closed source, though; many of the fundamental pieces that allow the phones to function are proprietary, such as sync, the LED control, the radio control... Take it all out and you have a phone that can't phone.
danguyf said:
It's more than just a few apps that are closed source, though; many of the fundamental pieces that allow the phones to function are proprietary, such as sync, the LED control, the radio control... Take it all out and you have a phone that can't phone.
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You really need to listen to the previous post. Anything that is required for our phones to run is not at question. Mod and distribute away. Led control , radio control, is not at question.
"That’s why we developed Android apps for many of our services like YouTube, Gmail, Google Voice, and so on. These apps are Google’s way of benefiting from Android in the same way that any other developer can, but the apps are not part of the Android platform itself. We make some of these apps available to users of any Android-powered device via Android Market, and others are pre-installed on some phones through business deals. Either way, these apps aren’t open source, and that’s why they aren’t included in the Android source code repository. Unauthorized distribution of this software harms us just like it would any other business, even if it’s done with the best of intentions."
Its the apps that are in question, not the underlying drivers, api's, libraries. So please and anyone else let's not overreact. Lets try to each help find a way to make this a non issue.
Johnny Blaze said:
You really need to listen to the previous post. Anything that is required for our phones to run is not at question. Mod and distribute away. Led control , radio control, is not at question.
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Actually, LED, radio, SPL... that's all HTC's property. Even the leaked NBH files that allowed this scene to flourish solely belong to HTC.
So although Google's decision does not affect them, they still fall under the same category of "oh crap...".
This is bad news. The phone is essentially useless without the Gmail app (for sign-in on initial boot as well as contact sync) and Android Market (for downloading any apps). Then take Google Maps out of the picture, and may as well throw the phone out and get an iPhone. At a minimum, this means the days of custom ROMs are over.
RueTheDay said:
This is bad news. The phone is essentially useless without the Gmail app (for sign-in on initial boot as well as contact sync) and Android Market (for downloading any apps). Then take Google Maps out of the picture, and may as well throw the phone out and get an iPhone. At a minimum, this means the days of custom ROMs are over.
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Click to collapse
This is actually not true at all. The Gmail app is something that is currently being worked on. Google maps isn't that great (but it's available in the market) Like it's been said, give it time. This is just a hiccup that we'll all get over. Soon.
RueTheDay said:
This is bad news. The phone is essentially useless without the Gmail app (for sign-in on initial boot as well as contact sync) and Android Market (for downloading any apps). Then take Google Maps out of the picture, and may as well throw the phone out and get an iPhone. At a minimum, this means the days of custom ROMs are over.
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Click to collapse
Your hyperbole not only singles you out as an ignorant fool, it also highlights the fact you have no idea where the true innovations in Android are. It is not having native GMail or Youtube clients (which are nice), it is in things like dalvik and the ipc framework. These are pieces of code that do not have anything to do with whether Google apps are present or not on the phone (or if it even is a phone).
Few things about the Android as background;
1) Android is open source and is enough to run a device on its own.
1a) People will argue that it isn't, that proprietary binaries are required. This is a *hardware dependent* argument. Blame HTC for having proprietary closed source binaries. 'Droid works fine on an openmoko using all open source software. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Android
2) Not all of what is on your phone is actually part of AOSP, i.e. *market*, *gmail*, etc.
3) Open and closed source components can exist in the same system without conflict.
4) Any particular organization can develop BOTH open AND closed source components, and these can, in fact, exist in the same system without conflict.
The situation:
Cyanogen has been issued a cease and desist order by Google related to inclusion of closed source Google apps in "CyanogenMod ROMs".
The legal situation: These closed source apps are not licensed to Cyanogen for redistribution. Google does have the legal right to restrict distribution of said apps.
Why now: The most obvious recent change that could have prompted this order to happen now is the inclusion of the as-of-yet unreleased MARKET app. This market app, being unreleased, is in an unknown state. This app may not be finished testing, i.e., it may be quite buggy, to the point where it could do all kinds of nasty things, like MULTIPLE-CHARGING of customer's when they buy paid apps, releasing payment and/or account information to unauthorized targets, failure to put secure apps into secure locations or other vulnerability allowing easy copying of protected apps, OR OTHER vulnerabilities. That being the case, Google may be *WORRIED ABOUT POTENTIAL PROBLEMS* in the new market app (rightly, as it may not have completed testing and/or may have KNOWN issues).
Why the order against *all* closed-source apps: This is simple. How can they order the removal of *just one*? If they order the removal of *just* the new market app, the legal implication is that the other closed source apps *can* be redistributed, i.e. precedence is 9/10ths of the law -- they would be closing the door on the enforcement of those apps in the future, i.e., for security reasons since regarding the closed source apps, Google is legally liable for their correct function.
So would the ignorant people talking about how evil Google is for doing this, PLEASE STOP spewing your mouths off regarding things that YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND? You're not helping anybody.
EVERYONE should read this.
I will admit, this post made me re-think what is really going on. He is just the first to get a finger shook at him, the rest will follow unless the developers and Google get stuff squared away.
i still think google is acting like asswholes though.
I do to but thank you for looking at things clearly unlike alot of other people inlcuding my self at first but once i started thinking about the new market i understood google
Just curious here but can an open source app be developed to access Market? Or are the codes for accessing Market closed?
Makes sense now, Google Just don't want to be responsible for something like customer's info being stolen.. and have the masses calling or infront of their door with pitch forks inhand,,
Then,
Why didn't Google say this?
Instead, they patronize and belittle the community.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=4609612&postcount=3
I don't mean to attack the OP with this post.
It's just a question.
Most likely because they are a dev or a lawyer. They just don't like speaking English. They have to say it all complicated and then have someone else translate it for them.
i think that this is from a stupid lawyer team, and google just sent it for legal reasons, i think the dev team has nothing to do with this.... isnt this why the created android, to have an open source platform.... i think Cyanogen and google just need to come to a compromise, either that or we just dont use googles apps even though half of them have better counterparts in the market
i do know this, the law is the law. Is the law always perfect, hell no. Cyanogen did no wrong. He helped out every single one of us running an android powered phone.
Could something wrong happen with an experimental build? Ofcourse. That is why he has his own disclaimer. If you are smart enough to root your phone, you should be smart enough to realize potential dangers in running leaked and/or experimental code.
Google is being a douchebag for their actions. Htc doesnt issue cease and desist orders for all of you running hero and that directly involves their sales in their phones. How many windows mobile roms are on this xda forum? How many have been ordered by microsoft to stop distributing their work?
To me it is ridiculous google is doing this. I know they are legally right but that doesnt mean they should screw us early adopters of their software with lame and slow updates and a product that is obviously inferior to the coding and development of one man with the help of a few others.
The reason i bought my g1 instead of an iphone or windows mobile phone was because of this community. Now all of us have had the benefits of cyanogen in one way or another. I dont want to be a douchebag as well and not speak up for a man who has helped me out when he had no reason to do so
honestly cyanogen would have probably been fine had he left the new market out. fact is our phones came with the old version and thats what we payed for when we got them. if say on the g1 t-mobile decides not to offer and upgrade to 1.6 then that means there not going to pay google to have the new app on our phones so if we hack it and throw it on anyway then google doesnt make there money and we are in every way STEELING IT. if you worked for and got payed by google i bet it would upset you if people were steeling your product that you worked hard to create.
so do i agree they should force him to rethink some of his newer roms? yes
but i think the older ones that just have software our phones already came with should be left alone
AND i think we should be aloud to purchase the new software from google if we want it.
but google search google maps and all that crap has nothing to do with this as you can get them all FREE online this is probably 99% the new app being on peoples phones that didnt pay for it. you bought the original market when you bought your phone thats why google hasnt had a problem untill now.
everything set aside i love cyanogens work i love my 4.0.4.... i HAVE 4.1.11.1 saved i will probably even install it just to check it out if he doesnt come out with a stable version which is what i was waiting for. but if he comes out with a non google stable version i have no problem installing my old market onto it, i already have it backed up and ready to go. i payed for it and im keeping it no matter what rom i run! and i hope he keeps doing his thing im all for him and love what he does and would even pay for it if i had to! i hope this doesnt stop him and i hope they work things out. if he wants money for all the work hes been doing im sure people wont blame him and as long as it gives him insintive to keep going im happy!
my two cents
cy has been perfecting their roms and now that they got the tools that they need they are going to plagerize his programming and impliment it into their next great g phone....and the only way to say its theirs is by getting rid of any shred of evid that is out there
i understand what Google is doing..its upsetting but they have a point, they gave us an OPEN SOURCE OS, thats good enough, the devs make it a better, more fun, experience...so just shrug it off, rid it of ALL closed source apps.
Google should than allow the All Google apps available to those with Google Experience phones(before customizing with a ROM), they could make you register with your phones EMEI (maybe? if possible).
Also so this obviously means his ROMs arent here on XDA...What is XDAs stand on the situation? Were they pulled by XDA or did Cyanogen pull them?
I don't know if this has been suggested before. I've seen dev-team on iphone doing something similar: why don't you make an "installer" script that takes all Google APKs from the device (which has stock image) then flash the rom and reinstall the APKs.. This way you don't have to distribute google apks. Not sure if that's possible if there is some kind of encryption protection on Google apps, just a suggestion .
No matter what it was a mountain made out of a mole hill.
id just like to see google allow open access to their market place.
then put all closed source google apps on there for download just like any other apps.
However from what I understand its not as simple as this as they arent just apps there is a whole framework that goes with it. bah.
MS never sent a takedown notice
MS never sent a takedown notice to xda-developers.
Ready.........Fight!
http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Google&word2=Cyanogen
wshwe said:
MS never sent a takedown notice to xda-developers.
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That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard;
1) xda doesn't host any wimo roms.
2) xda doesn't develop any roms at all -- that is up to the individual who does so.
3) How the hell would you know? MS probably did some real *****y stuff like sending goons to the modder's home, harassing the modder's wives, and issuing threats like "stop doing this, don't tell anybody we threatened you, and pay up $10,000 or we're taking you to court over it".
Google has been known for a long time to perpetually store all searches by IP, with the ability to assemble a shockingly complete picture of people by what they search on. Recently the Google CEO regurgitated the view that, "If you're not doing something wrong, you have nothing to worry about." (look it up)
Well I like Android and the development excitement, as I've used Debian exclusively for 12 years. But I am gravely concerned about privacy issues were I to buy an Android. I've hardly even used Google as a search engine. (Clusty)
Has any research been done on this? Does no one else share this concern?
You can disable this function of your Google Account. After logging in click the 'Dashboard' link that says 'View Data Stored With This Account'. Scroll to the bottom of the page where it says 'Web History' and you can disable/clear it for your account.
If using Google as your search engine makes you nervous then this should really put a bee in your bonnet:
Google and the NSA: Necessary Allies http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/188558/google_and_the_nsa_necessary_allies.html
Of course it's for 'OUR' protection.
Building on what mr_skot said... Google's CEO also made it clear that user information is only linked to you for a few months, then it is scrubbed and is made anonymous for more time. I can't remember if he said it was something like 18 months or a few years. Either way, they're serious about maintaining privacy, and you can bet that after the Chinese attack a couple weeks ago, they'll be beefing up security and changing their protocols.
If you want to remain completely anonymous, I suggest not using google, or google talk, or syncing your phone etc.
basically, you give a huge chunk of personal information by using google's services...
THAT was one of my hesitations of switching from winmo to android, but I got over it.
Real tin-foil hat wearer's don't use cell phones! For communication, they hand deliver letters, at secret drop off points.
What exactly are you guys doing to be so hesitant about Google? The personal information on your phone is so dire that you don't want them to view it? What will they do with this information unless you are doing something illegal? Other than that, I highly doubt they are just going to 'target' you purposely - the only way I could see you being so in danger is that they get hacked, and people go through their servers or whatever.
But what are the chances, that you and the millions of other people out there are going to be in danger? Maybe because I don't use my phone for.. bad purposes per-say, or search anything bad, I have no worry. I'm curious as to why people fear Google, though, maybe I'm being to open minded.
The point is in being comfortable with a stranger being able to know a lot of information about you ay the stroke of a key.
I would worry more about T-Mobile than Google, since they are the ones that monitor U for the Gov.
mrbkkt1 said:
The point is in being comfortable with a stranger being able to know a lot of information about you ay the stroke of a key.
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Click to collapse
Yes but the thing is, who cares about you specifically. What person in the GOOG HQ do you believe actually 'thinks' about you enough to want to be able to access any information about yourself. No one wants your info, so no one will try to find you - your information - or where you live.
I guess it is disturbing to people that they CAN do that, but T-Mobile can too, AT&T can too, and of course any other carrier has the same information that Google has, although Google could be more precise, or they could be more evil. What are you afraid of Google having? Your contact numbers? Your SMS? Your.. emails? Out of all those, I honestly don't care if they have it. Google isn't the only company with your location, so it isn't something I want to list.
There is probably something I'm not understanding here, though, and someone can probably easily explain how I am completely wrong about everything.. but this is my perspective. I believe if they don't care about you, then they wont dig into your life.
It's an invasion of privacy--though of course, your government invades your privacy all the time and has access to plenty of down-and-deep information about you. It's understandable some people would be anxious about it, whether or not they've done wrong. Mind you, this isn't exclusive to Google or anything. Microsoft collects information about you when possible. I don't doubt Apple et al does too.
I'm a bit leery about it myself; you sacrifice privacy for convenience and ease of use (google services/apps are great and easy to use, synchronization with your Android phone is excellent, etc), then you find yourself giving up more and more information. It's not the most comfortable state.
Eclair~ said:
What exactly are you guys doing to be so hesitant about Google? The personal information on your phone is so dire that you don't want them to view it? What will they do with this information unless you are doing something illegal? Other than that, I highly doubt they are just going to 'target' you purposely - the only way I could see you being so in danger is that they get hacked, and people go through their servers or whatever.
But what are the chances, that you and the millions of other people out there are going to be in danger? Maybe because I don't use my phone for.. bad purposes per-say, or search anything bad, I have no worry. I'm curious as to why people fear Google, though, maybe I'm being to open minded.
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Click to collapse
Congratulations, you win the Daily Mail award.
If you feel that only people who are doing something wrong need to worry then you can't really be against CCTV cameras on every corner. How about tagging all your shopping so your waste can be tracked or chipping everyone so they can be tracked at any time, in real time. I mean, if you're not doing anything wrong why would you worry
There *are* things that aren't illegal that you might not want any Tom, **** or Harry knowing. I can tell you now that any Google employee with access to that data is worth $$$ to a private detective - but then all Google employees are angels and never break the law and don't have gambling debts or money problems.
While the corporation (google) might not be particularly interested in the individual, the corporation is made up of individuals who may not have the same values as good honest folk. That's something you can't guard against.
Never ever use the argument that if you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to fear. 'Wrong' is a value judgment, subject to change at any time. 'Illegal' varies from place to place, country to country.
SC
ScaredyCat said:
Never ever use the argument that if you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to fear. 'Wrong' is a value judgment, subject to change at any time. 'Illegal' varies from place to place, country to country.
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Click to collapse
Exactly. And this was exactly the assertion that Google's CEO made this December. I repeat a famous old wisdom: 'Those who would trade freedom for security, deserve neither.'
To those naive ones who can't understand the privacy ramifications, suffice it to say that my business is none of their business. You can not understand how a fascist regime operates, or know what it was like behind the Iron Curtain. I was in intel, and do not like the unConstitutional changes to the law that were made in the past 9 years, and so I want to protect myself. You can open your life like a book as you like... eh, maybe it'll be OK. Or maybe your divorcing wife or someone suing you will find things you didn't want.
I am just trying to find out what kind of hooks Android may have that may cause it to store information unjustifiably and/or send it back to the Mother Ship. Of primary concern is the OS, and secondary is Google apps. I am assuming that the nav app is a no-go.
Before anyone lazily asserts that my OS or browser is more vulnerable, I've run Debian exclusively for 12 years, secured using the NSA procedure. I have used Google for search only a few times since it started, owing to their atrocious data retention policies (I use Clusty.com), and do not have a Google account. I don't trust assurances that data is scrubbed because they make much of their money from the information.
I do use T-Mobile, as they are one of only two companies that refused to cooperate with Bush's unConstitutional warrantless wiretapping. (Qworst was the other one) Oh, you think warrantless wiretapping is legal? Then why last year did Congress pass a law specifically exempting Big Telecom from Constitutional challenges? (which BTW, Obama voted for; that was it for me with him)
Has any research been done on the security of Android? I couldn't find any. (I am aware of the HTC leak, which was squashed by Cyanogen)
No one else has thought about this?
Oddly enough, using custom ROMs makes me somewhat less concerned about privacy. Being able to pick and choose components of the software does help.
Afraid I got nothing else to add, though. Ultimately, you can either put on your tinfoil hat and cut yourself off from all online contact (because someone, somewhere, is always collecting information) or resign yourself to it.
And you seriously believe Google are the ONLY ones doing this? at least we know about it.
How do companies get their 'market research'?....
I believe we have nothing to worry about, but in this day and age, to expect to be completely anonymous and 'off the grid' is about as plausible as Apple employees using Android devices in the office...
I wrote a long post then decided to delete it cause Im not going to change anyones minds on a message board anyways. So Ill simply say, no, I dont worry about it.
Amdathlonuk said:
And you seriously believe Google are the ONLY ones doing this? at least we know about it.
How do companies get their 'market research'?....
I believe we have nothing to worry about, but in this day and age, to expect to be completely anonymous and 'off the grid' is about as plausible as Apple employees using Android devices in the office...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So... your solution is to give up and resign yourself to allowing a Police State. No thanks, I don't agree.
ThatSearchEngineThatEveryoneUses is a gigantic corporation which will vacuum up every search you do and correlate them to assemble a frighteningly accurate picture of who you are. Nah, fsck that. I'll stick with Clusty and off-OS's like Debian.
Resign and argue with me all you want.
My thoughts...
1. Seperate your data. Its why I refuse to useGoogle Chrome. I already have enough info on Google without them knowing every single purchase , website visit , and log in info for everywhere I go.
It may be futile but its at least an effort.
2. No company tosses information. I dont care how many times I press clear or delete on Google settings. My personalized info is sitting on a server somewhere and will be until that info becomes worthless.
3. I have zero desire to contribute to skynet =-).
Im fully convinced data supported profiling will be in the hands of some ridiculously powerful AIs and Im not in the mood to have a bunch of robots know what Im going to do before I do it.
Lastly I really do think its absolutely sad how easily people forego there privacy like it shoudl be of no concern.
Your GSM operator can track and record all your calls, and can be subpoenaed for your general location at any time. Would you trust them more than Google?
xManMythLegend said:
My thoughts...
1. Seperate your data. Its why I refuse to useGoogle Chrome. I already have enough info on Google without them knowing every single purchase , website visit , and log in info for everywhere I go.
It may be futile but its at least an effort.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except Google Chrome does not collect enough information to discern such a thing, and your ISP can find out all that (and more, as long as it's not SSL-encrypted) anyway.
Everyone put on your tin foil hats!
Has any research been done on the security of Android? I couldn't find any.
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Click to collapse
Yeah, it's all, you know, here: http://android.git.kernel.org/ . Dig the source and see if Android's sending any rouge information to anyone.
Quantumstate said:
So... your solution is to give up and resign yourself to allowing a Police State. No thanks, I don't agree.
ThatSearchEngineThatEveryoneUses is a gigantic corporation which will vacuum up every search you do and correlate them to assemble a frighteningly accurate picture of who you are. Nah, fsck that. I'll stick with Clusty and off-OS's like Debian. Resign and argue all you want.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And it's not already?
What about CCTV? all the online purchases you make?
Credit card details?
Mortgage?
Electoral Roll?
National Insurance details...
Christ, they already know more about us than you can think.
Do a search for your name on the internet, I even found a site listing my marriage to my ex-wife, the children we had and when/where they were born......
I won't KNOWINGLY contribute to them collecting my data, but I'm not going to get paranoid about it either.
Just had to post to hear thoughts from you guys... Motorola has struck a deal to use Bing on Android phones in China (and maybe other markets, I guess)... Sounds whack.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62A0BB20100311?type=technologyNews
It's hard for me to say it but I kind of what Google to pull a Apple and stop this crap
There weren't supposed to be Android phones in China in the first place. They didn't have Google till recently if I remember correctly.
I think it is pretty rude to take an open platform, android, who's existence remains free due to the advertising revenue gained from users searching with google and using their apps, then chucking on a competitor's search engine on there. These guys are double dipping by using a free platform and using a business deal with other search engines to gain extra revenue from it.
Google does not do android out of love, Google is like any business, android is designed to make them money. These guys are cheating the system here.
AT&T and Motorola seem to try their outermost to f up the Android experience for their customers. Choosing Yahoo isn't really that bad, but Bing!? Come on.
Google needs to take better control over the Android mods the manufacturers and service providers can do, or we will be facing the dreaded software fragmentation everyone fears. There is actually something to be learnt from Apple, and that is to keep the OS as unified as possible to make development of applications easier. In no way do I condone Apple's total control scheme. I'm just saying Google should try not to let others pull the OS contents in all kinds of directions.
As bad as it looks,Google can't do anything,this is Android aka open source.
Thats the way it should be, No Lock ins, complete freedom.
Its a shame they have to do this for a little extra revenue...but thats what all PC makers do anyway.
Anyone who wants Google search can/will easily revert it back.
I agree it is a bit of dirt in the face, but honestly they just need to sell phones at this pt. The google integration runs deep, so ppl will still be enticed to get on the google bandwagon in general. Not to mention ppl can simply choose to use google search instead.
Microsoft is probably paying $$$ per phone to have their search engine as the first choice, but you guys need to think BIGGER.
AdMob for example in Apps. Advertising goes beyond pure www searching and this trend will grow.
I'll admit that I'm a Google fanboy... why? Because almost everything they do is done right and they're the anti-Apple. That being said, I want to think that Google left this "customization" possibility open for carriers and manufacturers intentionally, and that's one of the reasons it chose to establish its own online store. Any phone that is sold there will be all Google...
seanowns said:
I agree it is a bit of dirt in the face, but honestly they just need to sell phones at this pt. The google integration runs deep, so ppl will still be enticed to get on the google bandwagon in general. Not to mention ppl can simply choose to use google search instead.
Microsoft is probably paying $$$ per phone to have their search engine as the first choice, but you guys need to think BIGGER.
AdMob for example in Apps. Advertising goes beyond pure www searching and this trend will grow.
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Click to collapse
are you sure that google it's not paying also for being the default search engine in the current devices that have it? I don't think so, I'm pretty confident that they have a revenue sharing mode like they have with firefox. Maybe in this case the bid from bing it's bigger.
wow not good for android.
Google, yahoo & bing?
First an issue with multiple rom versions on different phones. Now
search engines?
Hate to say it but google needs to lock it somehow.
Open source while wonderful in business is a double edge sword.
Look at the whole tivo vs echostar scenario. Tivo opened their system echostar
ran with it.
DEFRAGMENTATION IS A MUST. Turn chrome os into the one and only google O.S for their devices and leave android open for everybody.
They should know how open source is not a profound business move.
I irony of using android and then locking it up is delicious.
GNOve said:
wow not good for android.
Google, yahoo & bing?
First an issue with multiple rom versions on different phones. Now
search engines?
Hate to say it but google needs to lock it somehow.
Open source while wonderful in business is a double edge sword.
Look at the whole tivo vs echostar scenario. Tivo opened their system echostar
ran with it.
DEFRAGMENTATION IS A MUST. Turn chrome os into the one and only google O.S for their devices and leave android open for everybody.
They should know how open source is not a profound business move.
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seanowns said:
I agree it is a bit of dirt in the face, but honestly they just need to sell phones at this pt. The google integration runs deep, so ppl will still be enticed to get on the google bandwagon in general. Not to mention ppl can simply choose to use google search instead.
Microsoft is probably paying $$$ per phone to have their search engine as the first choice, but you guys need to think BIGGER.
AdMob for example in Apps. Advertising goes beyond pure www searching and this trend will grow.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google apps don't show up on android phones unless google says they can.
Android > Manufacturer > Cell Provider
At any point, anyone can infuse whatever they want into android. in the case of the Nexus One, they squeeze in right before cell provider or instead of.
In the case of the Moto Backflip, Motorola would have to ask google to put in google apps. So moto is taking the vanilla android, adding their own stuff and whatever stuff the cell provider wants to add as well (yahoo/bing).
An adroid phone doesn't have to have google apps on it. If they choose to however they have to concede to google's rules, one of which is to not put any apps on it for the phone to have the "Google Experience".
The problem is these same people who choose default search engines will be the first to whine and complain when Googles "own" phones (N1) will get preferential treatment.
I think theres a fine line between open source and just creating watered down rip offs.
Android name will go through the mud with this specific level of fragmentation. OS updates are one thing this is changing the structure of day to day phone use entirely.
I also think theres a difference between letting the end user and community make changes to the phone OS , and letting a company lock in something entirely different.
Being open source doesnt necessarily mean you let someone else lock it down and turn the other cheek.
IMO Google should at least make it mandatory that all Android phones have that "Google" option when first starting up and ability to change later on. Let the end user decide not my ****in telco or country.
I heard on a podcast that on the motorola phones, the option to set the default search engine has been removed. So you are given bing whether you like it or not, you can search bing, or you can navigate to google then search. I know what most people will do, the easiest one.
I keep reading that bing gets more users every month, but it may seem that it is not necessarily people choosing to use bing, but bing is buying more users by doing deals like this.