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HI guys as i reported a few days back my hd died on me so i sent it to them to fix, well theyve got back to me 2day saying that:
"Our initial assessment of your device indicates that the repair work required is caused by damage that isn’t covered by warranty. Unfortunately, this means we must charge you for the repair."
they want me to pay 151 sterling for it, what you think shall i pay it? or shall i just buy the dam iphone! its really pissed me off is there any ways around it? is there a way to buy the the motherboard from some where else?
Why isn't the motherboard covered by the warranty? You didn't break the seal did you?
Fallen Spartan said:
If you can't even get phone to start, chances are its a motherboard problem and likelihood is that HTC will just replace motherboard without even looking at whats installed on device. Others have had same problem and they had no problems. However I CANNOT stand by this 100%. It will be a risk!!
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Hmmm.... I think you battery was dead. If battery is completely dead HD won't power up from charger per se. And they have seen the illegal criminal stuff on your HD. The price they quote seems more like for battery than motherboard.
crajee said:
Hmmm.... I think you battery was dead. If battery is completely dead HD won't power up from charger per se. And they have seen the illegal criminal stuff on your HD. The price they quote seems more like for battery than motherboard.
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But a custom ROM can't damage the motherboard... And since he is specifically talking about a problem "caused by damage that isn’t covered by warranty" and not "we have to charge you because your warrenty is void" I'm not too sure this is the problem...
I would ask them to specify what supposedly damaged the motherboard that isn't covered by warrenty!
I'm having the same issue with my Diamond. The screen broke (touches are all over the place) and they say the following:
Illegal software has been found on your device (HardSPL), this has damaged the motherboard. It will have to be replaced and you will have to pay for it as this has voided your warranty.
There are several issues with this. First, HardSPL does not damage the motherboard. Second, software does not break screens. Third, nowhere in their warranty it states anything about something like this voiding it. Fourth, for many countries in the EU they would have to fix it due to EU warranty regulations irregardless if this voided the warranty or not.
Anyways, my lawyer is on it.
thanks guys im thinking of getting it deliveryed without getting it "fixed" will only cost me 11 quid, and buy a new battery, is there anywhere you guys would recooment getting a new battery from? im assuming that they have managed to turn on the hd, which i couldnt do and panicked and sent it to them within a day, if i can turn it on ill down grade everything and then take it to tmobile as im covered with issurance
Chainfire said:
I'm having the same issue with my Diamond. The screen broke (touches are all over the place) and they say the following:
Illegal software has been found on your device (HardSPL), this has damaged the motherboard. It will have to be replaced and you will have to pay for it as this has voided your warranty.
There are several issues with this. First, HardSPL does not damage the motherboard. Second, software does not break screens. Third, nowhere in their warranty it states anything about something like this voiding it. Fourth, for many countries in the EU they would have to fix it due to EU warranty regulations irregardless if this voided the warranty or not.
Anyways, my lawyer is on it.
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thanks i mite state this to them they didnt even specifically say how i managed to mess up my MB
i cant even get through to them now seems that all there support numbers are down
You'll find that all companies including HTC will try all methods of getting out of warranty and the fact that you have HSPL on your device (whether or not it was related to malfunction) will be enough for them to void your warranty.
Others have sent devices in and had no problem as device wasn't checked. You have been unlucky.
My device broke at the weekend and seeing as I have 2 HD's I decided it was worth the risk taking it apart. I managed to refix the motherboard due to a faulty loose connection. Took a while to figure it out.
HOWEVER I WOULDN'T ADVISE ANYONE TO DO THIS!!! THIS SHOULD BE DONE ONLY AS A LAST RESORT, AND ONLY IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!! ONCE YOU HAVE OPENED DEVICE YOU WILL COMPLETELY VOID WARRANTY!!!!
i managed to get through and spoke to some1 he said that the usb had something to do with the motherboard failing, im gona try getting it sorted through insurance, they are going to send me a more detailed reason for them charging me for repair, ill post it as soon as i get it
just sent them a letter:
I am writing to inform you of my disappointment with the HTC. Last week I sent my phone my phone in for repair as it kept on switching off (09GBD230000153). After a few days I was sent an email telling me that HTC knew what was wrong with the phone but would charge me for repair as the “work required is caused by damage that isn’t covered by warranty”. I was told the main board needed replacing. This confused me somewhat as I had not ever dropped the phone and the phone never had liquid damage. I called the center saying that this was all a bit confusing; they assured me and told me that they will find a more detailed description of the fault. I received a call today from a HTC operator explaining that the warranty was void as a new rom had been “flashed”. I argued that there was no way this could affect the hardware. He was very sympathetic but kept his stance. I have now decided to have the phone returned without repair but am bitterly disappointed about the way HTC conduct their policies on warranty. If HTC sent me a message when I first sent the phone into repair saying that the warrenty was void due to an “illegal” rom I would have understood. But to claim that the “work required is caused by damage that isn’t covered by warranty” is farcical. It seems HTC will do anything to avoid repairing the phone at their own expense. HTC need to understand why people flash “illegal” roms in the 1st place. It is not because of HTCs interface but primarily because of the poor windows software the stock rom holds. I am contemplating approaching BBC's Watch dog as I believe people need to know more about the company as it is slowly growing in the UK and Europe. I am also aware of people in the US in the same predicament and Dog Eat Dog productions (a Michael Moore company) has taken a special interest for a future documentary.
Regards
scar88 said:
just sent them a letter:
I am writing to inform you of my disappointment with the HTC. Last week I sent my phone my phone in for repair as it kept on switching off (09GBD230000153). After a few days I was sent an email telling me that HTC knew what was wrong with the phone but would charge me for repair as the “work required is caused by damage that isn’t covered by warranty”. I was told the main board needed replacing. This confused me somewhat as I had not ever dropped the phone and the phone never had liquid damage. I called the center saying that this was all a bit confusing; they assured me and told me that they will find a more detailed description of the fault. I received a call today from a HTC operator explaining that the warranty was void as a new rom had been “flashed”. I argued that there was no way this could affect the hardware. He was very sympathetic but kept his stance. I have now decided to have the phone returned without repair but am bitterly disappointed about the way HTC conduct their policies on warranty. If HTC sent me a message when I first sent the phone into repair saying that the warrenty was void due to an “illegal” rom I would have understood. But to claim that the “work required is caused by damage that isn’t covered by warranty” is farcical. It seems HTC will do anything to avoid repairing the phone at their own expense. HTC need to understand why people flash “illegal” roms in the 1st place. It is not because of HTCs interface but primarily because of the poor windows software the stock rom holds. I am contemplating approaching BBC's Watch dog as I believe people need to know more about the company as it is slowly growing in the UK and Europe. I am also aware of people in the US in the same predicament and Dog Eat Dog productions (a Michael Moore company) has taken a special interest for a future documentary.
Regards
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Please let us know HTCs answer - I'm really curious to know what they have to say to your letter!
will do
scar88 said:
just sent them a letter:
I am writing to inform you of my disappointment with the HTC. Last week I sent my phone my phone in for repair as it kept on switching off (09GBD230000153). After a few days I was sent an email telling me that HTC knew what was wrong with the phone but would charge me for repair as the “work required is caused by damage that isn’t covered by warranty”. I was told the main board needed replacing. This confused me somewhat as I had not ever dropped the phone and the phone never had liquid damage. I called the center saying that this was all a bit confusing; they assured me and told me that they will find a more detailed description of the fault. I received a call today from a HTC operator explaining that the warranty was void as a new rom had been “flashed”. I argued that there was no way this could affect the hardware. He was very sympathetic but kept his stance. I have now decided to have the phone returned without repair but am bitterly disappointed about the way HTC conduct their policies on warranty. If HTC sent me a message when I first sent the phone into repair saying that the warrenty was void due to an “illegal” rom I would have understood. But to claim that the “work required is caused by damage that isn’t covered by warranty” is farcical. It seems HTC will do anything to avoid repairing the phone at their own expense. HTC need to understand why people flash “illegal” roms in the 1st place. It is not because of HTCs interface but primarily because of the poor windows software the stock rom holds. I am contemplating approaching BBC's Watch dog as I believe people need to know more about the company as it is slowly growing in the UK and Europe. I am also aware of people in the US in the same predicament and Dog Eat Dog productions (a Michael Moore company) has taken a special interest for a future documentary.
Regards
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Interesting approach, would have maybe mentioned the contents on this as well.
Would be interested to hear their response!!
I have sent similar letters in the past - never receiving a response though.
Im thinking of sending my HD in as it will no longer charge from power supply only USB any ideas why that could be,, i have hardspl on it now if i take that off and reflash to a stock rom will that unvoid my warrenty?
Fallen Spartan said:
Interesting approach, would have maybe mentioned the contents on this as well.
Would be interested to hear their response!!
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didnt think of that dam!
Chainfire said:
I have sent similar letters in the past - never receiving a response though.
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realy? what did you write? if we make enough of a racket they have to respond 1 day
meandu229 said:
Im thinking of sending my HD in as it will no longer charge from power supply only USB any ideas why that could be,, i have hardspl on it now if i take that off and reflash to a stock rom will that unvoid my warrenty?
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if you send it to them make sure you reflash the stock rom, i would have but the phone wouldnt turn on now there screwing me, so along as your phone works, reflash the stock rom and then send it
scar88 said:
realy? what did you write? if we make enough of a racket they have to respond 1 day
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Who says they have to? They make enough money out of us already doing what they do. Why do they need to change? I'd be surprised if you get a response (though if you do, post it). I'd imagine they will just stick to what they previousy told you and state warranty is void due to illegal rom installed
I sent my nexus one of for repair as backplate was not flush and it came back not fixed, i rooted phone deciding that i wasnt going to send it back again and because i thought shouldn't matter (as i was told on here) then i decided to send it off again, the guy did not ask me if had changed software on phone either time, but then i got a message saying it been refused repair and i would have to pay for return or new mainboard. I called them to say that it should have been repaired the first time while my phone was under warranty and so it is linked to that case anyway since it should of been repaired then it doesn't matter about its warranty state now its their fault for not repairing it.. they wouldn't have that, i pointed out its not even a warranty matter since it was recieved with fault so its a faulty item so should be replaced or repaired warranty or not.. still wont repair it, i point out that its rediculous they even check the rom of phones that be sent to them with hardware problems because obviously the software does not effect the phone and change the hardware and they know that they sent the item out with the fault so should just fix it they shouldn't even check if warranty is voided by software because that is put in place so they dont fix software faults caused by people themselves so its really bad that they use it to get out of fixing hardware issues.. still no hope so i have to pay for phone be sent back to me and then i will be seeking legal advice
That does suck, and it's completely obvious that the rooted-ness does not affect hardware. Unfortunately there's not much of a case since you clicked the "YES" button to void your warranty when you rooted, voiding all parts of the warranty (hardware and software).
I hate to admit it, fearing that something may happen to my phone, but I can see their side to this matter. It would have been nice for the guy to just fix it for you, though.
Now, the fact that they are making you pay for shipping it back (unfixed) is simply poor customer service.
It does suck, They are using whatever means necessary to make more money.
IMO they should only reject faults that are causable by software. (burnt out LED, bricked, Overheated/Dead due to too high OC...). Since HTC is the manufacturer and they dont state anywhere that they are not evil...theres nothing google can do.
My phone has no faults. Ordered just before the 1/5 announcement
indie12 said:
i will be seeking legal advice
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Good luck with that, you don't really have a leg to stand in, unfortunately.
I hope the legal advice is free since a $600 is hardly worth getting a lawyer over and losing a case... average lawyer will be $100 an hour....
Then again... HTC might counter sue you for wasting their time...
I'll give you "free advice as a law student" (I'm not an attorney... yet). You have no case whatsoever. Sorry.
The best thing to do is totally ruin the phone. There are electronic ways to do this. I have access to a device that generates a strong magnetic field that I used to fry a laptop and a phone before. I have heard of people putting things in a microwave too but I am not sure how well that would work.
Rusty! said:
Good luck with that, you don't really have a leg to stand in, unfortunately.
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Incorrect.
HTC would need to prove what he did caused the issue for what they are refusing repairs to.
This has been discussed before. Car manufactures did the same thing with aftermarket parts.
drdingo21 said:
Incorrect.
HTC would need to prove what he did caused the issue for what they are refusing repairs to.
This has been discussed before. Car manufactures did the same thing with aftermarket parts.
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The only problem with this, though, is that there is no case law regarding cell phones directly, as of yet. Cars are expensive enough to justify the legal fees, phones are not.
It would stand to reason that the entire warranty isn't voided by rooting, if it were to go to court (simple contract law and warranty law, breaking or voiding one part doesn't null and void all other parts)... but the unlocked bootloader method also has you agree to voiding the warranty, so that makes it more difficult and less clear cut since it wold be pretty easy to argue by doing so you agreed to and entered into a contract giving up your warranty rights.
Personally, I wouldn't waste my time on it. I would do what others have done and contact Google. There are numerous threads in here regarding how to get hardware warranty services on your rooted device, do a search and you should be good to go.
drdingo21 said:
Incorrect.
HTC would need to prove what he did caused the issue for what they are refusing repairs to.
This has been discussed before. Car manufactures did the same thing with aftermarket parts.
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You're incorrect here as well. You can't relate unlocking the bootloader to replacing OEM parts with aftermarket ones. Further, what pjc said is right on. Legally speaking, all of us are expressly informed that the warranty is void if we unlock the bootloader (twice if you count the warranty statement as well). If unlocking the bootloader is not necessary for normal use, then there's no argument that one MUST unlock the bootloader. So any court would laugh at a complaint like this.
I am sure you are all familiar with the M&M act? If not then do a search as it is too much too post here. This at any rate is the one that speaks to aftermarket car parts and touches on many parts of warranty coverage. I fought Chrysler over an issue with a truck I bought some years ago. I won. It cost several times what fixing it out of pocket would have. While the M&M act provides for the ability to recover fees you may or may not do so. I did not. I followed this through as a matter of principle but I can just about promise you if you should decide to pursue this in court you will be sorry you ever stepped down that road. I would not do so again in similar circumstances. Especially since as already stated Google has been quite good about fixing obvious hardware defects with unlocked bootloaders if you contact them and follow the process. I have yet to read one instance where someone with such a problem was denied warranty after following through with Google.
Could a third party ROM really damage the mother board of an HD2 - the reason I ask is that I've just had HTC UK send me a quote for a new mother board saying that it's been damaged by an illegal ROM, and therefore isn't covered by warranty. I sent the phone back with the ghost screen problem, having had HSPL on it I wiped it at set it back to SPL 2.08, then put a stock ROM back on it - I have been quoted just under 200 GBP for a new motherboard! It seems a little odd to me that fisrtly they can tell it's had a different ROM on it and secondly that although I've been running an energy ROM for something like 10 months, I have almost exclusively been running MDJ android from the SD card for the last 4 months, the apparent damage to the motherboard has only happened in the last week or so!
I never have a prob...with T-Mobile. I don't even flash the HD2 back to it's original rom. This will be my 8'th HD2 with T-Mobile exchange easily no prob...but that's T-Mobile not EU. I would think that we should wipe the phone by all means, and I don't think you sent it back factory that's the prob...you must have missed something. What ever they can do to stop us from modding I'll phones
They will do it, even if it means the famous voided warranty cheap shot.
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App
I had the ghost screen every so offten, but more just white dots they said today I needed a new board £198 but it didn't mention anything about a different rom. I paid £20 for the phone to be sent back to me how annoying!
They wanted £182 for the new MB in mine - I think I'll pay for the phone to be returned too, as it seems to me that they are just hiding behind the warranty and on principle I don't think I'll buy another HTC - had been thinking about a desire HD.
What excuse did they give you for not covering the screen under warranty?
They just said it was not a warranty repair?
Charlie360 said:
They wanted £182 for the new MB in mine - I think I'll pay for the phone to be returned too, as it seems to me that they are just hiding behind the warranty and on principle I don't think I'll buy another HTC - had been thinking about a desire HD.
What excuse did they give you for not covering the screen under warranty?
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Request a detailed explaination as to how the use of a 3rd party ROM actually caused the damage. State that if they do not give you a satisfactory answer you will take the matter to your local trading standards office.
Whilst I will ask for the explanation, I think the problem is that they can hide behind the warranty all day long (they have clearly stated that the use of non-official ROMs will cause the warranty to be void) so I don't think I've got much of an argument really. It's a shame because for me, the HD2 was out of contract (and therefore it's not a massive issue) and I was genuinely just about to buy a Desire HD, but this whole experience with HTC, has made me think that there's more than enough competition out there supplying handsets with Android on them - I'll go elsewhere and not be back - it's a matter of principle.
Spendy - perhaps you should request a more detailed explanation as to why it wasn't covered by warranty - perhaps they just rely upon us not questioning their decision?
Charlie360 said:
Whilst I will ask for the explanation, I think the problem is that they can hide behind the warranty all day long (they have clearly stated that the use of non-official ROMs will cause the warranty to be void) so I don't think I've got much of an argument really. It's a shame because for me, the HD2 was out of contract (and therefore it's not a massive issue) and I was genuinely just about to buy a Desire HD, but this whole experience with HTC, has made me think that there's more than enough competition out there supplying handsets with Android on them - I'll go elsewhere and not be back - it's a matter of principle.
Spendy - perhaps you should request a more detailed explanation as to why it wasn't covered by warranty - perhaps they just rely upon us not questioning their decision?
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HI Anyone who has problem with HTC warranty ::
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=844980
Unfortunately it seems nearly impossible to get a straight answer out of HTC on this - the official line seems to be that they are unwilling to consider the issue any further until I pay their fees to replace the main board - they keep sticking to the following statement:
"I spoke with you earlier on the phone regards to your HD2 I have attached a picture showing that the device itself has been rooted before the information from the sd was inserted with the software information.
Unfortunately this confirms the device being out of warranty and if you would like the device to be repaired the full quote would have to be paid, or return of the device unprepared a payment of £22.43p would have to be made, or we can discard the device for you.
I understand that you wanted to try Android on your device however de to this there is nothing more we can do without payment of quote."
I've run out of time and patients with the matter and will therefore just replace the phone - any recommendations, I'm quite partial to Android, but not keen to put any more money HTC's way.
Hey.
I had a HTC Leo today at work (I work at htc warranty repair) and the problem was that the phone could not be charged. I confirmed this by trying to charge and then was going to change the mother board to fix the problem.
For some reason I decided to turn the phone on with another battery, and check it out.
The phone booted to android.
Even though I myself have a rooted phone and follow these forums every day, I was forced to break the warranty stickers inside the phone and then send the customer an email asking if he wanted the phone to be repaired off warranty.
The changing of motherboard would cost him over 300$ dollars, which could have been avoided by getting a cheap spare battery and going back to stock.
Now he will never be able to get any problems in the phone repaired by warranty :/
So please, if you send your phone to warranty repair, go back to stock.
You had to do it? Someone was looking over your shoulder?
Spaqin said:
You had to do it? Someone was looking over your shoulder?
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Even if nobody was looking over his shoulder, he should not be expected to sacrifice his integrity and risk his job just because he's sympathetic to the customer's problem. The customer should have had the sense to return the phone to stock condition before sending it in for warranty repairs.
Hi there.
I did that, but it did not work?!
I´m (was) using MIUI on my HD2. Last week i opend the internet browser of my HD2, then there was a short "lag" and after that lag the touch is gone broken.
I flashed back to the roots and sent it in for warranty.
Now i got a letter in which they mention that i broke the warranty terms and have to pay 430€ for a broken touch?!? that is crazy...
they also gave my a link to a picture of my phone.
See attachment. So what is the Problem?
That spl is only stock for tmous phones, if you have a regular hd2 with spl 2.x, even a 'stock' 2.08.0000, then it can only get that way using warranty breaking methods.
hack, thats a piece of sh.. .
I think it won´t help to retrieve it and send it in with another spl, because they saved the data from the last order?.
No probably not, but it will almost certainly be cheaper from a third party repair shop. For 430 euro you could buy almost two mint condition 2nd hand units on eBay.
Course, if HTC do a paid repair, they should at least offer warranty on the repair.(maybe?dunno)
hmmm. But the risk of sending it in again to the same company high.
They want me to pay about 28€ only for sending the Phone back to me, because theres no warranty left. so if it does not work the second time, i have to pay that twice... maybe more because of attempted fraud!?
I send it in to Arvato. Do you know any other warranty company for the HD2 i could send it to?
Or i´m bound the company that is mentioned on the site i bought the phone?
The warranty is already broken. The tech most likely broke the warranty seal when he discovered the spl had been tampered with. Just like the OP in post 1.
ah, ok. Think i ****ed with 520€. That feels really bad...
so, lets wait for Miui M1.
no worries.
if it were me, id get the phone back and find a local repair shop to fit a new screen. should cost about 100 Euro for the part, plus a bit for fitting. BUT be sure its a reputable shop, and they offer you some kind of guarantee, cos there's a fair few stories where a repair shop has broken the cables to the buttons, or similar, and wont re[pair them.
OR, id spend 150/250 euros for a 2nd hand one on ebay, and keep the broken one for use as a spare mainboard.
don´t want to spend money on it. Was about to buy a new one anyway. Just waiting for Miui M1.
I will retrieve it and try to sell it with all equip for some euros on Ebay.
thanks for ur infos on that topic.
samsamuel said:
The warranty is already broken. The tech most likely broke the warranty seal when he discovered the spl had been tampered with. Just like the OP in post 1.
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You could go for new warranty stickers from ebay.
-not that I am supporting any kinds of fraud here, but I think that custom SPL should not cause the warranty to void, and flash-bricked phones to be repaired on warranty. It should be the other way around.
But hey, if what I just suggested is illegal where you live, DON'T DO IT.
i had looked up my problem yesterday with the keyword "touch not responding" and found many complains about that. Seems to be a generall problem with HD2 that seems to come from dust. there are some solutions i´m gonna try.
se1988 said:
-not that I am supporting any kinds of fraud here, but I think that custom SPL should not cause the warranty to void, and flash-bricked phones to be repaired on warranty. It should be the other way around.
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Ah but they can't tell its a flash brick (I assume you're talking about tmous radio bricks) and without proof they have to uphold the warranty. The only way to start the phone would be to JTAG it, which would wipe the hspl evidence.
Does it then matter if the phone is out of warranty anyway, and you know your going to have to pay for it? Is it even worth going back to stock?
se1988 said:
You could go for
-not that I am supporting any kinds of fraud here, but I think that custom SPL should not cause the warranty to void, and flash-bricked phones to be repaired on warranty. It should be the other way around.
But hey, if what I just suggested is illegal where you live, DON'T DO IT.
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Might fool someone, if it is really well manufactured. Even though the seller claims they are original, they are not. The strip containing the original stickers looks very different.
cmajewsk said:
Does it then matter if the phone is out of warranty anyway, and you know your going to have to pay for it? Is it even worth going back to stock?
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Doesn't matter if it is already out of warranty.
as you know most, if not all, phone manufactures void your warranty when you flash custom software... some, like htc, do it upfront, when unlocking your bootloader... others, like samsung, use flash counters to identify evil custom rom users when faced with warranty claims.
the reason given is always the same: they don't want to pay for (hardware) damage done by the custom software... and most of us would probably object and call bull****, our beloved custom roms aren't doing any damage, with the sole exception of people taking overclocking way too far...
what arguably could be prevented via hardware restrictions by the manufactures if they really wanted to... so if that really is all they fear, no problem here.
But I think the SDS issue adds a new point to the discussion. now we can quite easily construct a case where Samsung could legitimately say that custom software killed the phone: an S3 that would have lived a long and happy life running Samsungs fixed stock kernel, but died because an idiot or an unaware person flashed a kernel without the fix. In other words, the custom software wouldn't really kill the phone... but it would not be preventing it from killing itself
(of course the same applies to simply not updating your phone)
I still think warranty for hardware issues shouldn't be voided if one uses custom software (so please don't kill me), but I guess in this case the manufactures side is understandable as well...
PS: what the SDS issue also shows is the awesomeness of an open platform like android, so Samsung is forced to share their kernel code (hence the fix) with us
Unless you live in the EU, then you can argue your case.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
Unless Samsung engineer a problem if you flash custom ROMs then only problems that can be directly caused by a custom ROM or kernel is overheating from over clocking.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda premium
EU "warranty" clarification
blazevxi said:
Unless you live in the EU, then you can argue your case.
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I know this EU "law" (1999/44/EC, to be specific) is referenced quite often around here, but I think it is way overrated and it does not offer as much protection as many people around here seem to think.
First of all, it is not an act you can point to when making your legal case, it is just a directive. A directive is the EUs way of telling its member states to adjust their national law according to the guidelines given by the directive. So national law is likely to be similar to the directive, but the details might vary. In other words, the directive dictates minimal standards for national law, but the specifics are up to the member states.
Also there is no guarantee that every state adapted the directive appropriately. There are some examples where member states refused to do it, were to incompetent to do it properly... or just to slow. Think about the telecommunication data preservation stuff, there are still member states who refuse to implement those directives.
Bottom line: EU directives are worthless, if your country hasn't implemented them yet.
Second point: the EU directive isn't as consumer friendly as many people seem to think.
For starters, it means nothing to manufactures. Samsung does not have to care about it, because it applies to _sellers_, not to manufactures. It says sellers have to provide fault-free products. If they fail to do so, and it gets discovered within two years, they have to refund you. Sounds good, right? Well, there are some drawbacks.
The before-mentioned only applies to faults that have been present at the time of purchase. The implication is, that the consumer will always say, the problem is due to production faults, the seller will always assume the contrary. The catch is, neither of them can prove their point without spending loads of money.
This problem is addressed by the directive in article 5, paragraph 3:
Unless proved otherwise, any lack of conformity which
becomes apparent within six months of delivery of the goods
shall be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery unless
this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods
or the nature of the lack of conformity.
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(Source)
So for the first six month you are covered, because if you haven't obviously damaged your device yourself, the seller can't proof it is your fault.
But after that six month, you are pretty much screwed! The directive doesn't get specific on who has to prove what in that case, but because it specifically says the seller needs to provide proof in the first six month, it can be argued that the buyer got the burden of proof afterwards.
This is a perfect example of an issue that should be clarified by national law, when adapting an EU directive (doesn't mean it actually does).
In case of my country (Germany) it got clarified: reversal of the burden of proof after six month
And I think it is a reasonable assumption that it was done in a similar way in other countries, since the directive allows this interpretation and the seller lobbies sure did everything they can to make it that way.
So if your national law doesn't say otherwise, you should assume you only got six month of effective protection.
To sum up: if your government implemented the directive, you are most likely covered for six month, through your seller, not the manufacturer!
So everybody living in the EU (and everybody else who is jealous about this "magical EU law"), please understand: it means almost nothing compared to the warranty given by the manufacturer, which is usually longer and more extensive (around here we usually get 2 years for electronic devices, but that is voluntarily done by the manufactures, they are not forced to).
So the whole thing is pretty much only valuable for people living in EU states where manufactures would normally offer warranties shorter than six month. For everybody else, it is worthless.
Disclaimer: This is just my layman view on the topic, I'm no lawyer or something. Also I'm not too familiar with legal terms in English, so some stuff might be lost in translation. If somebody thinks I got it wrong, please correct me
PS: although the EU directive wouldn't help you legally, it might be worse a try to tell a seller, who is refusing refund, about it... apparently a lot of stores don't know about it... and some surrendered when threatened with "EU law".
Through my cellphone company I pay like 4 euros a month for an extended warranty that covers my broken phone even if it is rooted as long as the problem wasnt caused by the root. Not sure if you can get the same.
Zylian91 said:
Through my cellphone company I pay like 4 euros a month for an extended warranty that covers my broken phone even if it is rooted as long as the problem wasnt caused by the root. Not sure if you can get the same.
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do they specifically say they cover phones that have been tampered with software-wise? Oo
odoto said:
do they specifically say they cover phones that have been tampered with software-wise? Oo
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In my case the policy says: (between other funny wording): accidental damage, water damage etc.
Therefore, I personally will play same fair game as the sellers and/or manufacturers: if my I9300 would have SDS, semi-death (with download mode available only, showing perfectly that I'm on custom), then, I will "accidentally" will forget to remove the phone from driveaway while taking back with my JAG, or, alternatively, I will give my fishes brilliant opportunity to call Nemo.
First, there is nothing common with the warranty, they will just replace it or repair.
I have no idea about the lobbies in EU, and in my country, bu I always adjust my honesty to the second side of discussion.
O, did I mention that this is an add-on to my bank account, and I have the right to claim twice per year for the phone priced up to approx 1000EUR?
But, going back to the topic, EU law is binding in all EU countries. Furthermore, Samsung can put in the warranty the statement that: inserting the battery will void warranty. But - they HAVE to write as well: above does not affects your statutory rights.
And, they have to honor these rights. therefore if the country law states that the equipment is covered for 4 years - the seller will have to follow that.
spamtrash said:
In my case the policy says: (between other funny wording): accidental damage, water damage etc.
Therefore, I personally will play same fair game as the sellers and/or manufacturers: if my I9300 would have SDS, semi-death (with download mode available only, showing perfectly that I'm on custom), then, I will "accidentally" will forget to remove the phone from driveaway while taking back with my JAG, or, alternatively, I will give my fishes brilliant opportunity to call Nemo.
First, there is nothing common with the warranty, they will just replace it or repair.
I have no idea about the lobbies in EU, and in my country, bu I always adjust my honesty to the second side of discussion.
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well, I wouldn't call it "same fair game" or "adjusted honesty", I'd simply call it insurance fraud, payed for by honest customers. It has nothing to do with getting back at Samsung or the vendor...
spamtrash said:
But, going back to the topic, EU law is binding in all EU countries. Furthermore, Samsung can put in the warranty the statement that: inserting the battery will void warranty. But - they HAVE to write as well: above does not affects your statutory rights.
And, they have to honor these rights. therefore if the country law states that the equipment is covered for 4 years - the seller will have to follow that.
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regarding the EU directive in question Samsung can do whatever they want, since it applies to _sellers_, not to manufacturers
odoto said:
well, I wouldn't call it "same fair game" or "adjusted honesty", I'd simply call it insurance fraud, payed for by honest customers. It has nothing to do with getting back at Samsung or the vendor...
regarding the EU directive in question Samsung can do whatever they want, since it applies to _sellers_, not to manufacturers
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OK then, let's use same measure, and please explain to me what is the difference between (as you was keen to say) insurance fraud, and the warranty fraud by rooting the phone?
sorry, but in my insurance policy there is no such wording like: "except from intentional damage", where in the warranty it is clearly stated.
and of course this is contrary to your assumption from post #1, where you are mentioning custom roms, kernels etc. Wrong. If you have rooted the phone, your warranty is void, period.
If you're trying to hide it, it is a fraud, isn't it?
I definitely agree that Samsung have nothing to do with the phone. The purchase contract was made between the customer and the seller, therefore, seller is fully responsible for any equipment faults over the warranty period (which is much longer in UK, by the way).
spamtrash said:
OK then, let's use same measure, and please explain to me what is the difference between (as you was keen to say) insurance fraud, and the warranty fraud by rooting the phone?
sorry, but in my insurance policy there is no such wording like: "except from intentional damage", where in the warranty it is clearly stated.
and of course this is contrary to your assumption from post #1, where you are mentioning custom roms, kernels etc. Wrong. If you have rooted the phone, your warranty is void, period.
If you're trying to hide it, it is a fraud, isn't it?
I definitely agree that Samsung have nothing to do with the phone. The purchase contract was made between the customer and the seller, therefore, seller is fully responsible for any equipment faults over the warranty period (which is much longer in UK, by the way).
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I have to say I partially agree. Handing in your phone for warranty, although you know you did something that definitely voided the warranty, could be named fraud as well. But I would argue that it is "more okay" than insurance fraud in some way. In case you knowingly killed your phone yourself (lets say you opened it up and intentionally damaged a component), you are a "bad person" if you try to get it repaired under warranty. BUT in case your rooted phone died because the manufacturer screwed up, like with the SDS, you are free to hand it in for warranty in my opinion.
The difference I see is, that in case of a rooted phone your warranty is voided by a technicality that is far from reality. IF the damage done isn't related to you installing custom software, you would be covered otherwise. The problem is that the warranty does not distinguished between cases where root/custom software was the problem and those where it wasn't. Arguably it just isn't possible do to that, or it is just to expensive to trace whether software was the problem or not.
So trying to get warranty despite that is okay in my eyes, because it is trying to "right" a "wrong".
Insurance on the other hand is not, you can't argue you are getting back at Samsung or the place where you bought the phone by getting money from the insurance company you don't deserve. It is not hurting Samsung or the vendors, but other people who need that insurance.
(And in case the vendor sold the insurance to you as well: still not hurting the vendor, they usually just sell insurance contracts of third-party insurance companies)
Damn, didn't mean to get into a lengthy discussion about insurance fraud
odoto said:
I have to say I partially agree. Handing in your phone for warranty, although you know you did something that definitely voided the warranty, could be named fraud as well. But I would argue that it is "more okay" than insurance fraud in some way. In case you knowingly killed your phone yourself (lets say you opened it up and intentionally damaged a component), you are a "bad person" if you try to get it repaired under warranty. BUT in case your rooted phone died because the manufacturer screwed up, like with the SDS, you are free to hand it in for warranty in my opinion.
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Why? You shall NOT ROOT your phone, if you want to be honest. and, if anyone would have a residual amount of so-called honesty, after rooting - no one should even think about giving the phone to the service for warranty repair, period.
By the comparison: if you have used your TV set as the rain protection while on camp, I'd say that it would be not very honest to claim 3 dead pixels, huh?
And, you have presumably completely wrong info how the insurance works... read it, and then discuss (a tip: if I pay for the bank account which includes the insurance, if I put my moneys into the bank's account - guess who's paying for the insurance).
Contrary to above, it is sure that as Samsung's solely income is (in this case) by selling SGS's. Therefore, using your own argumentation, it is easily found that for any fraudulently rooted phone repair under the warranty - ALL buyers have to pay, because it is included in the purchase cost, which is paid by mass of the honest users, which even do not know about the phone's rooting possibility and consequences.
Of course, the above will be true unless you are not so naive to believe that Samsung did not included the repairs of some percentage of phones into this price.
Maybe are you thought that any warranty repair decreases the net Samsung's income? :laugh::laugh::laugh:
spamtrash said:
By the comparison: if you have used your TV set as the rain protection while on camp, I'd say that it would be not very honest to claim 3 dead pixels, huh?
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Of course not, because the rain (which is your fault... well, not the rain itself, but the exposure) did kill the device, not the dead pixels. But in case of a rooted phone that died because of a hardware issue, the manufacturer is the one who screwed up, regardless of the software changes you did. If a device dies because of pre-existing hardware issues, what is the difference between custom rom and stock from the manufactures perspective?
spamtrash said:
And, you have presumably completely wrong info how the insurance works... read it, and then discuss (a tip: if I pay for the bank account which includes the insurance, if I put my moneys into the bank's account - guess who's paying for the insurance).
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I agree I don't know for sure how your specific insurance works (how would I?), but I know how those normally work. It usually works like that: some company wants to offer their customers an additional insurance. But they don't have the knowledge to do it themselves, after all they are not an insurance company. So they delegate it to one. They pay the insurance company a fee for every device sold (or some sort of flat fee if it is not device-bound). In return the insurance company is liable for repair/replacement costs if the customer kills his phone. And if people are abusing that insurance, the insurance company has to increase the fees (obviously they don't wanna loose money). So the company who is paying that fee also has to increase prices for their consumers, because they don't wanna loose money as well.
So at the and all customers are paying for it. It always works like that, no company wants to loose money.
spamtrash said:
Contrary to above, it is sure that as Samsung's solely income is (in this case) by selling SGS's. Therefore, using your own argumentation, it is easily found that for any fraudulently rooted phone repair under the warranty - ALL buyers have to pay, because it is included in the purchase cost, which is paid by mass of the honest users, which even do not know about the phone's rooting possibility and consequences.
Of course, the above will be true unless you are not so naive to believe that Samsung did not included the repairs of some percentage of phones into this price.
Maybe are you thought that any warranty repair decreases the net Samsung's income? :laugh::laugh::laugh:
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True, of course. Like I described above the customers are always paying in the end (or switching to a different company).
BUT Samsungs repair costs are not higher because of rooting/custom software. If nobody would modify the software, Samsung would even have higher repair costs, because in that case they would have to pay for all repairs. If a portion of the repairs can be denied for whatever reason, they save money.
So the fact that some people modify the software does not add to Samsungs repair costs (except for the really rare cases where people actually fry there phone by overclocking all the way to the moon and back), but they still void there warranties, thus saving money.
But they are only saving that money by discriminating against custom software users, for no reason.
So it is not like all customers have to pay more because of custom software users claiming warranty. The contrary is true: at the moment all "normal" users are saving money due to custom rom users, because those get there warranty voided for no factual reason.
Of course Samsung (and other manufactures) state that there is a reason, that they would have higher repair costs because of custom software users. But I think that is a groundless claim, just made to safe money or because of missing knowledge. (I'm talking _hardware_ warranty here! Of course they would have higher costs if they would fix phones where people messed up the software). So because of the unfounded fear of manufactures that custom software users will kill lots of their devices, we get denied rights that all other users have. I'd call that discrimination.
Just curious, now that we know what's causing the problem, is there a way to trigger a brick on my phone *immediately* and have them replace it with an updated motherboard while it is still in warranty… rather than to have a ticking time bomb that may or may not go off and can potentially still fail just outside of warranty?
Will a zero wipe on /emmc do?
wshyang said:
Just curious, now that we know what's causing the problem, is there a way to trigger a brick on my phone *immediately* and have them replace it with an updated motherboard while it is still in warranty… rather than to have a ticking time bomb that may or may not go off and can potentially still fail just outside of warranty?
Will a zero wipe on /emmc do?
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Try hard bricking it, It can't be hard, purposely disconnect the cable when a PIT flash operation is in progress?
Off course I would rather take a chance that it may not break for MONTHS instead of it breaking and Samsung may not replace it.
wshyang said:
Just curious, now that we know what's causing the problem, is there a way to trigger a brick on my phone *immediately* and have them replace it with an updated motherboard while it is still in warranty… rather than to have a ticking time bomb that may or may not go off and can potentially still fail just outside of warranty?
Will a zero wipe on /emmc do?
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1. we have an idea what subsystem is likely causing the problem... that's all.
2. you _might_ be able to advance faster towards triggering the bug by doing a lot of write ops, but that is just a guess (and certainly not immediately)
3. chances are good your phone can live a long and happy life with a fixed firmware, even if it got the buggy chip
4. you would risk getting another mainboard with an affected chip...
5. there is always a risk of Samsung not accepting your claim (happened to some people here)
6. if your phone doesn't encounter SDS within a 2 year warranty period, it probably never will
7. don't do it! your would risk ending up without a phone now, to avoid a small risk of loosing your phone somewhere in the future. if you can't stand having a phone that might brick (what I understand), sell your phone (or get a refund if you still can)
wshyang said:
Just curious, now that we know what's causing the problem, is there a way to trigger a brick on my phone *immediately* and have them replace it with an updated motherboard while it is still in warranty… rather than to have a ticking time bomb that may or may not go off and can potentially still fail just outside of warranty?
Will a zero wipe on /emmc do?
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Try it ... and let us know :laugh:
More seriously : thanks to odoto for this thread and for information on EU "law" limitations ..
philgalaxs3 said:
More seriously : thanks to odoto for this thread and EU "law" limitation ..
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I know what you you meant, but that sounds almost like the EU law limitations are my fault
odoto said:
I know what you you meant, but that sounds almost like the EU law limitations are my fault
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Corrected , hope that sounds better. Sorry for my poor english .... und danke sehr :good:
AW: some thoughts on warranty, custom roms and SDS
I just thought it was funny
And your English seems totally okay, no worries
odoto said:
Of course not, because the rain (which is your fault... well, not the rain itself, but the exposure) did kill the device, not the dead pixels. But in case of a rooted phone that died because of a hardware issue, the manufacturer is the one who screwed up, regardless of the software changes you did. If a device dies because of pre-existing hardware issues, what is the difference between custom rom and stock from the manufactures perspective?
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Very simple. Please write here procedure for overclocking without the root, and I will tell that you're right immediately.
odoto said:
I agree I don't know for sure how your specific insurance works (how would I?), but I know how those normally work. It usually works like that: some company wants to offer their customers an additional insurance. But they don't have the knowledge to do it themselves, after all they are not an insurance company. So they delegate it to one. They pay the insurance company a fee for every device sold (or some sort of flat fee if it is not device-bound). In return the insurance company is liable for repair/replacement costs if the customer kills his phone. And if people are abusing that insurance, the insurance company has to increase the fees (obviously they don't wanna loose money). So the company who is paying that fee also has to increase prices for their consumers, because they don't wanna loose money as well.
So at the and all customers are paying for it. It always works like that, no company wants to loose money.
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So what is the difference between the warranty?
odoto said:
True, of course. Like I described above the customers are always paying in the end (or switching to a different company).
BUT Samsungs repair costs are not higher because of rooting/custom software. If nobody would modify the software, Samsung would even have higher repair costs, because in that case they would have to pay for all repairs. If a portion of the repairs can be denied for whatever reason, they save money.
So the fact that some people modify the software does not add to Samsungs repair costs (except for the really rare cases where people actually fry there phone by overclocking all the way to the moon and back), but they still void there warranties, thus saving money.
But they are only saving that money by discriminating against custom software users, for no reason.
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It seems that you did not understood the rules at all. Therefore, just short comparison:
INSURANCE: someone is paying additionally to the price of unit to be covered against unintentional, caused by lack of care, or ANY OTHER DAMAGES, unconditionally.
WARRANTY: You are purchasing the Unit for a price, in which the free repair is covered conditionally, if you are obeying the T&Cs of warranty. It is your choice if you will, but, INTENTIONAL void of the warranty by rooting and then trying to hide it is a fraud.
Comparing to the cars, you can have comprehensive insurance, yes? This is your free will to buy it. and, you have the car warranty. If you are honest, would you claim the corrosion caused by driving your car on a seaside on the background of warranty or insurance? Looking at your posts, you probably would call the insurer aproach a fraud, same time cleaning mud, alga and fishes and shouting that your car never has been contacted with salt water and this ugly dealer have to repair it under the warranty.
Once again, this is your choice: apply warranty T&C's and then claim on base of such, or buy the additional insurance and do whatever you want.
odoto said:
So it is not like all customers have to pay more because of custom software users claiming warranty. The contrary is true: at the moment all "normal" users are saving money due to custom rom users, because those get there warranty voided for no factual reason.
Of course Samsung (and other manufactures) state that there is a reason, that they would have higher repair costs because of custom software users. But I think that is a groundless claim, just made to safe money or because of missing knowledge. (I'm talking _hardware_ warranty here! Of course they would have higher costs if they would fix phones where people messed up the software). So because of the unfounded fear of manufactures that custom software users will kill lots of their devices, we get denied rights that all other users have. I'd call that discrimination.
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Once again: please give me an example of overclocking without the root, first.
Secondly, you have of course the right to disagree with the T&Cs of warranty. It is very simple: do not buy the product, which is related with unacceptable by you warranty terms. You have even wider choiche: you can buy it and you have the free will to ignore T&C's. The fraud starts when you're voiding knowingly these T&C's, and then you are trying to use (violated by you) warranty.
Third, of course you can call it discrimination, but the manufacturer and seller has right to set the purpose of the device. This is not discrimination, but the AGREEMENT between the customer and seller/manufacturer. Same way you will most likely call discrimination the fact that most of manufacturers are putting the water damage indicators to their devices. (Funny thing by the way, years ago it was no such things in phones. But amount of people like you, who submerged their units into water and then claimed it under the warranty - enforced the manufacturers to do it).
As I said above, your screams are like: I have bought a BMW, then I tried to reach my friend in a yacht in the middle of harbor in it, but it become rusty in result, therefore I need it repaired under warranty.
Finally, I think that you should read the Chainfire's statement related to it on his portal.