Related
I was looking for a couple of threads that I had recently bookmarked to go back to later on only to find that they weren't bookmarked anymore. I spent almost an hour searching for them only to find the one specific thread in the trash. No warning or reason was given. Why was this done? I can understand if it's a thread with only a single post or perhaps even one that has become outdated (like a Cupcake release date thread) but why a thread that has 4 pages of information for a topic that doesn't have any reference for it already? Isn't this going to just create more new threads? More e-mails? More questions? Isn't this defeating the purpose of posting a new thread about a topic that hasn't been posted or stickied, if it is just going to be deleted?
If you look in the trash you will find SEVERAL Dream threads. In fact... just on the first page HALF (TEN out of TWENTY) are from the Dream thread! So just to clearify... of the dozens of different threads for different phones half of all trash is for the G1??? Isn't the trash supposed to be for SPAM?
How are these spam (just from the first page)???
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=525564
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=524956
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=519591
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=525034
There are a few more of course but I can understand because most of the questions have been answerered and it would be faster and easier if these people used the search feature. But some haven't been. (example)
Instead of deleting the threads... merge them. But of course you get stuck with a 500+ page thread that MOST people will not read all the way through to see if the question they are about to ask has been asked/answered already. Which is of course why they post a new thread but guess what? It gets deleted and so another thread gets posted. It's never ending and I realize that this must be hard work for the mods.
So what to do?
I propose that instead of deleting these threads without reason or warning, to PM the original poster of the thread to ask of the significance of it and to provide a legitimate reason and purpose for it. Otherwise give warning or notice of the possible deletion. Of course this does not exempt the threads that are posting warez, copyright infringements and other obvious violations of memberships.
This is only my opinion and I hope that I have made an interesting point or two about this matter.
Look at the Sticky "Tough Love Moderation Alert". Basically the admins will lock/delete threads they think duplicate or off topic. I can't say as I agree with their method (no explanation) but there is a need to keep the threads under control. The development forum is the worst of the problem area but all the Dream forums have some abusers.
On the other hand it is leading to silly thread titles "[ONLY] something [ONLY]" (which is silly since people who would have posted off topic before still will) and confusion as well as "What happened to my last post" threads. Time will tell if their methods achieve their goal.
JanetPanic said:
Look at the Sticky "Tough Love Moderation Alert". Basically the admins will lock/delete threads they think duplicate or off topic. I can't say as I agree with their method (no explanation) but there is a need to keep the threads under control. The development forum is the worst of the problem area but all the Dream forums have some abusers.
On the other hand it is leading to silly thread titles "[ONLY] something [ONLY]" (which is silly since people who would have posted off topic before still will) and confusion as well as "What happened to my last post" threads. Time will tell if their methods achieve their goal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah... okay. I agree that some of the most annoying problems with the dream thread is that people do post in the ROM Development thread. But is deleting so much easier then moving to the "Dream" thread? If so, does it out weight the inconvenience of the possiblity of the same question being reposted because it was unable to be found by the search feature?
Say this post gets deleted... and it likely will be... and someone else notices the same issue... and they search to see if this has been posted. Will they find it? No. Because hardly anyone looks in the trash. So what do they do? They post it as a new thread. So what happens? A mod goes in and deletes that post. And it repeats over and over again until the mods stop deleting the posts. Then what? Nothing. The post stays and maybe even grows. Is it really a bother that a thread is over a month old and hasn't had any recent posts? Does it really bother anyone? Of course not! They just ignore it, right? So why go through all the trouble to delete it? Some of the threads in the trash are still useful and there is absolutely no harm in keeping it in the proper catagories (ie Dream, Applications, Themes, etc).
Any mod that simply deletes a useful and recently commented thread because it was mistakenly posted under the wrong catgory instead of simply moving it, is just lazy in my own personal opinion and is doing more harm then good. Again... just my opinion.
Binary100100 said:
Say this post gets deleted... and it likely will be... and someone else notices the same issue... and they search to see if this has been posted. Will they find it? No. Because hardly anyone looks in the trash. So what do they do? They post it as a new thread. So what happens? A mod goes in and deletes that post. And it repeats over and over again until the mods stop deleting the posts. Then what? Nothing. The post stays and maybe even grows.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That doesn't indicate that what the mods are doing is necessarily wrong, it means that new members continue to disregard the rules (posting already answered questions, posting in wrong forum, etc).
That said, I think the mods need to reevaluate how and when they do thread merges. The form of discussion in forums like these tend to be "conversation" centric. However, the threads are presented in a flat format (by default). That means that merging two threads of identical or similar topics will cause their conversations to intermix, with disastrous results. People already have piss-poor reading skills as it is.
What do you expect the moderators to do? We didn't give them a choice. The Dream forums are out of control and it would take the 3 or 4 moderators for these forums 8 hours a day not being paid to police it. You want someone to blame? Blame your fellow XDA members because there are only 2 solutions for this problem:
Get more moderators to baby sit the forums or increase the quality of posting within the Dream forums. The later is what we need here and what the moderators are hoping for.
Edit: And honestly, I think this is the best method. Do we have the potential for losing good information? Yes. This is how you teach the multitudes of Dream posters that there are consequences for being ignorant. Being stupid is not an excuse.
It is pretty annoying how the Dream thread has exploded and that the same questions just keep on cropping up. When I reply I do try to either re-direct them to my signature (which has the basic links to Dude's ROM, SPL, Apps2SD, Radio etc), teach them how to search with the actual result or just point them to the right direction.
However with 500+ pages or whatever, it can become a chore for newbies to read though, even if 70% of the info is in the first page.
I did recommend to the mods that the Dream section needs cleaning up, with a dedicated sub forum purely for the established (or popular) cooked ROMs. So underneath the Dream Dev sub-forum is another just for JF, Dude, Cyanogen, Haykuro etc. That should remove quite a lot of traffic and usual questions then from what is supposed to be a general development thread for other matters.
Then I would suggest a much more organised and up to date FAQ in such a sub-forum which covers all of the same questions that get asked daily. Any such questions that get asked in any of the ROM forums would then be re-directed to the FAQ.
Most of us I'm sure have come from large forums (lik-sang, avsfoums, etc) and know how to search, read etc but many newer members don't, be it due to lack of effort etc. However I'm sure there are many genuine new members who are willing to learn that only need a nudge in the right direction. Simply blocking them off by trashing, linking them only to the search page etc isn't helpful and won't generate a positive community.
I would put myself forward to help moderate the Dream section but I know that zero mod positions are available at the moment, but I do agree with the OP that trashing isn't always the solution.
NeoBlade said:
linking them only to the search page etc isn't helpful and won't generate a positive community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The main problem is that for the veterans who have been here since Sept/Oct 2008, everything more or less makes sense because they have seen it evolve to its current state. It's a lot like a guy who lives in a very very messy room who can still find the book buried under a pile of empty ramen cups and dirty laundry. Thus its easy to say "use the search!" in response to any newbie query. That said, from the first-timer newbie perspective, there are a few problems: 1) A lot of information crammed into two poorly organized subforums. 2) A lot of information is outdated and is superseded or contradicts newer information. 3) Some of the sticky threads have very poorly written or maintained first posts.
Sticky threads are not a very good way to store information for general consumption, unless the original poster is a very good communicator and also vigilantly updates the first post with concise information from the entire thread, no matter how long it is. Of the former sticky posts, few actually meet that standard. The ideal format for information conveyance is wiki, but then there is the disconnection between the wiki and active development. In other words, people don't like to move back and forth between the wiki and the forum.
I know what you mean jashu, I love my "organised mess" at home ^_^
It does take effort alright in keeping threads on topic and up to date, I remember when administrating the TokyoToys forum (I since had to close it, joint decision by myself and the owner) and also organising events for fans and people alike to meet up and have fun, took effort and more often enough without any recognition as well which can get discouraging.
Certainly if the OP kept his or her first post updated often enough with information it will keep questions down to a minimum however I still approve of a well made FAQ which is stickied. It then becomes a focal point as any FAQ should. I'm actually in the middle of writing one myself and once its done and the people concerned are happy with it, I would be happy to post it here too.
Ideally a wiki would be best because its user editable however I had a look at the XDA wiki and it does need a bit of TLC.
I will qualify my statement in that I come from the standpoint as an administrator in a prominent Linux forum that gets more posts in an hour in than the Dream forums get in a day. I firmly believe that draconian administration is not the answer and makes the forum far less pleasant to use. I think of administration as keeping things civil and posts in the right forum more than controlling creation of threads. Forcing the organization into a few mammoth threads is not any better than letting users create new threads without rules.
The developers forum is a bit of a mess and completely left to its own it would be worse than it is. The Development forum is not really about development anymore though. It more of a "custom ROM" forum. It is rare that I see an actual post on development on the android platform. Since the primary topic on the forum is custom ROMs the support questions for said ROMs get put in the development forum and generates a mess. Creating a ROM forum would just shift the mess, so I am not sure that would be better.
I think eventually the newbies who are flooding the forum with threads that could be answered by searching will either go away or learn to search. The current choice of administration is not educating the newbies though, it is just forcing them to learn. Regardless of how any of us users feel about the subject though the administrators have made their choice on how to deal with the Dream sub-forums. We are just along for the ride.
The thought that scares me more than any other is that the flood of newbies up to this stage could be just the tip of the iceburg. XDA-Dev before the last year or so was a forum for a fairly small group of people who generally know how to deal with their own problems. Lately the number of users with limited technical ability and desire have been increasing. This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change. Linux forums have a reputation for rude users, this is largely due to the veterans being unforgiving to repeated questions. Harsh but it does work over time.
JanetPanic said:
The thought that scares me more than any other is that the flood of newbies up to this stage could be just the tip of the iceburg. XDA-Dev before the last year or so was a forum for a fairly small group of people who generally know how to deal with their own problems. Lately the number of users with limited technical ability and desire have been increasing. This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This and the fact that it's brand spanking new. Give it time and the kids will find something new to play with and move on while the people that give a rats arse (us) will be left behind. I've seen it time and time again on car forums. This isn't any different. The first 6 months is bliss. The following 1-2 years is absolute hell. Then comes the volume drop off and the true development. I've all for tough love but it's not like the tide is ever going to stop. We are just going to have to wait it out.
There's always methods in dealing with issues and I do agree that its more of a ROM section than Development thesedays... Hence in my opinion it would be better off having a ROM section for such people to post on, which will clear up for people actually developling or helping to improve the android platform - Most notibly the Bluetooth OBEX support.
This isn't the fastest forum I've seen or been involved in in terms of volumes of posts, however it is getting to the point where re-structuring and possibly more moderators are needed to help ease the burden. When a large number of people register and start being active, it is often the best time to set an example and indeed set and establish a community where people help people - Be it to simple things as pointing them to the right direction to much more techinical issues.
Without the ethos to help each other, where would open source be?
Granted I know nothing about Linux myself and couldn't code to save my life but I do enjoy the technical discussions that take place. A lot of this is lost with the usual questions that get asked, hence the need for a more up to date FAQ. Tough love is needed but I believe with the right organisation, it shouldn't have to be the only answer.
uberingram said:
This and the fact that it's brand spanking new. Give it time and the kids will find something new to play with and move on while the people that give a rats arse (us) will be left behind. I've seen it time and time again on car forums. This isn't any different. The first 6 months is bliss. The following 1-2 years is absolute hell. Then comes the volume drop off and the true development. I've all for tough love but it's not like the tide is ever going to stop. We are just going to have to wait it out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the G1 is the new sidekick. and the sidekick was such a fad and trend for kids to use as a phone. the hip hop and celebrity community did well in terms of marketing the sidekick to the mainstream public as being a "your not cool if you don't have one of these" items. also the emo/scene kids are all about what the "in" things and fads are, so that highly popularized the sidekick as well.
and now since the G1 came out, most of the people that got a sidekick for those particular reasons mentioned above, are now "upgrading" to the next newer cooler big thing.... the G1.
young people love to follow trends, fads, and what's cool at the moment.
right now, the G1 is just that.
it's a double edge for Android and the G1. the popularity is one of the key things needed to make Android and the G1 a success. but with popularity comes a lot riff raff and criticism that is not welcomed so well. but i digress lol
i just hope the sidekick comes out with a touchscreen version or something, so the kids have something new shiny to play with haha
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK? I moved to the G1 after my Nokia N95. Got impatient waiting for the N97 so made the jump and thanks to the incomplete stock OS, I was tempted to move back to my N95 until JF released his research, Haykuro and Dude. Now it feels more complete with only a few things missing.
Back on topic though, the place isn't as bad as it could be but since this is more a development forum to begin with and not a social based one, just a few tweaks here and there would help newbies a little.
NeoBlade said:
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK? I moved to the G1 after my Nokia N95. Got impatient waiting for the N97 so made the jump and thanks to the incomplete stock OS, I was tempted to move back to my N95 until JF released his research, Haykuro and Dude. Now it feels more complete with only a few things missing.
Back on topic though, the place isn't as bad as it could be but since this is more a development forum to begin with and not a social based one, just a few tweaks here and there would help newbies a little.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ohhh i have an idea...
like when you sign up you pick the phone and platform you use then instantly redirects the new member to a FAQ or pertinent threads associated to their liking of phone and platform and at the same time directly email them a link to those FAQ and whatnot.
NeoBlade said:
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK?.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, it's just how mrcrs described it. The Sidekick became quite the fashion accessory model when celebrities started picking them up. They are pictured all over the tabloids and mentioned a lot of times in up-start musician's songs. I doubt very much that it would have panned out this way if T-Mobile released the SideKick 3G before the G1 but then again, T-Mobile needed a victory and a halo phone really fast.
That would take a fair amount of modification to the forum files to do (I've done my fair share of phpBB, phpBB Plus, IPB etc) and also is on the pretence that every single mobile has a suitable FAQ to begin with.
And easier way and modification to the forum could be to send a general stock welcoming PM along with a reminder to search and any additional helpful links within. That is, if XDA wants to go down that route.
NeoBlade said:
That would take a fair amount of modification to the forum files to do (I've done my fair share of phpBB, phpBB Plus, IPB etc) and also is on the pretence that every single mobile has a suitable FAQ to begin with.
And easier way and modification to the forum could be to send a general stock welcoming PM along with a reminder to search and any additional helpful links within. That is, if XDA wants to go down that route.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
whenever i join forums and in my inbox i get a message automatically, which is usually from the forum itself, i usually disregard it because all it is a "welcome to xyz forums... yada yada yada... enjoy your time here"
i usually don't open and read it, delete it then... go wreck havoc on finding out the information i want to know or read about. but that's just me
JanetPanic said:
This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To get a glimpse of where Dream/Magic forum is headed, just look at the xda Winmo forums. "Development" in this case basically just means rom customization. It's already pretty much at that state here too. Of course if Android fulfills its promise of being a mainstream smartphone OS, there will be many more newbies here than there ever were on the Winmo forums (you don't see many kids rocking Touch Diamonds).
Linux forums have a reputation for rude users, this is largely due to the veterans being unforgiving to repeated questions. Harsh but it does work over time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IMO there's nothing wrong with being a bit curt, especially in the "development" forum. This isn't an interactive tutorial, a hand-holding journey. Too many people seem to get the idea that the unsupported hacks enabled by rooting can be generalized and simplified for mass-market consumption. That kind of thinking is faulty and the resulting bad publicity may jeopardize the Android hacking community on the whole.
The problem is that in most cases, being rude only keeps away users who had initial reservations and cautions to rooting-- precisely the kind of user who actually might take the time to indepedently and/or responsibly learn how to do things properly.
jashsu said:
To get a glimpse of where Dream/Magic forum is headed, just look at the xda Winmo forums. "Development" in this case basically just means rom customization. It's already pretty much at that state here too. Of course if Android fulfills its promise of being a mainstream smartphone OS, there will be many more newbies here than there ever were on the Winmo forums (you don't see many kids rocking Touch Diamonds).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have been here since 2005 with the Blue Angel (then the Wizard, Jam, Magician, and the Artemis). Eventually XDA started dedicating a subforum to ROMs with the general development thread up top for WinMo development. The Dream right now just has the one combined forum. Another difference is that the ROM threads in Dream seem to grow faster than I remember on the WinMo threads. I am not sure what the difference is, maybe that usually there are a couple debug threads that die out which in the Dream forum is discouraged. Regardless the rapid posting makes it harder to keep up with more than one ROM.
jashsu said:
IMO there's nothing wrong with being a bit curt, especially in the "development" forum. This isn't an interactive tutorial, a hand-holding journey. Too many people seem to get the idea that the unsupported hacks enabled by rooting can be generalized and simplified for mass-market consumption. That kind of thinking is faulty and the resulting bad publicity may jeopardize the Android hacking community on the whole.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, well put.
jashsu said:
The problem is that in most cases, being rude only keeps away users who had initial reservations and cautions to rooting-- precisely the kind of user who actually might take the time to indepedently and/or responsibly learn how to do things properly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good point as well.
You know I have always come to XDA with my windows mobile phones and now my g1. I never made an account because I've always done my research on how to do things on my phone. But just recently there are a lot of new users comming to xda to learn and ask questions and achieve the new things we have on our phones. Not everyone has the intelligence to do things and sometimes have to have things done for them. but if they are actually taking the time to ask a question, for the next 10 pages of posts they are getting flamed about how they are in the wrong section or how they are idiots or just snide remarks or sarcastic responses, that right there is driving people away from this forum. like a lot of people say why not let the mods take care of it, why flame the user? what do you achieve? do you feel better about yourself? I have always loved XDA and i may not have had that much to give to the community. I also want to say thank you to all the developers putting forth all the work.
XDA is like having a girlfriend. It's fun at times but mostly it's hell. But you stick around so you can pound that pearl! hahaha jk
ernvillanueva90 said:
You know I have always come to XDA with my windows mobile phones and now my g1. I never made an account because I've always done my research on how to do things on my phone. But just recently there are a lot of new users coming to xda to learn and ask questions and achieve the new things we have on our phones. Not everyone has the intelligence to do things and sometimes have to have things done for them. but if they are actually taking the time to ask a question, for the next 10 pages of posts they are getting flamed about how they are in the wrong section or how they are idiots or just snide remarks or sarcastic responses, that right there is driving people away from this forum. like a lot of people say why not let the mods take care of it, why flame the user? what do you achieve? do you feel better about yourself? I have always loved XDA and i may not have had that much to give to the community. I also want to say thank you to all the developers putting forth all the work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think its good to do some Trial & Error before asking some questions.Don't ask a question that was answered above your post. I don't like when people start spamming or trolling and they say the rom is slow just cause they don't know what they're doing. Now the search here isn't perfect and finding some things can be difficult but if you do xda+(rom name,etc) you should find the thread with google.Instead of making a new thread like how to root dream/G1m do root G1 on google and you will find something.
Ace42 said:
I think its good to do some Trial & Error before asking some questions.Don't ask a question that was answered above your post. I don't like when people start spamming or trolling and they say the rom is slow just cause they don't know what they're doing. Now the search here isn't perfect and finding some things can be difficult but if you do xda+(rom name,etc) you should find the thread with google.Instead of making a new thread like how to root dream/G1m do root G1 on google and you will find something.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I most agree with you but why flame the user is what im getting at. just the rudeness and the snide remarks. what benifit does the community get from this? if anything they are driving away people that you never know may become very good developers. just let the mod deal with it and redirect them and they will eventually learn. i myself dont like to ask for help. i rely on google and on the search. im just doing this for all the new members that may join xda. i mean these people that are quick to flam someone on how they broke a rule bc they posted in the wrong section arent they breaking a rule as well by flaming the other user? or insulting them? i never see anything being said about that... just my thoughts. from this point foward mod go ahead and delete this or do what you please with this. i just thought id speak my mind for once rather than just sit by and watch people get flammed or instulted and from this be discouraged and driven away from this forum.
ernvillanueva90 said:
I most agree with you but why flame the user is what im getting at. just the rudeness and the snide remarks. what benifit does the community get from this? if anything they are driving away people that you never know may become very good developers. just let the mod deal with it and redirect them and they will eventually learn. i myself dont like to ask for help. i rely on google and on the search. im just doing this for all the new members that may join xda. i mean these people that are quick to flam someone on how they broke a rule bc they posted in the wrong section arent they breaking a rule as well by flaming the other user? or insulting them? i never see anything being said about that... just my thoughts. from this point foward mod go ahead and delete this or do what you please with this. i just thought id speak my mind for once rather than just sit by and watch people get flammed or instulted and from this be discouraged and driven away from this forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't mean its right to do that,cause the rules say to respect other members so they are going against that. I think if they have nothing nice to say then keep your trap shut real tight.
It's just how this forum seems to operate. It's massive, with a very lenient policy on trolling and off-topic harassment. Combine that with a userbase that seems to trend on the younger side, you get a lot of kids who think they're anonymous and because of that, think they should just flame the hell out of anyone who asks a question.
I only respect people that try. If it's available already on xda search and google search. I wasn't spoon fed and I will not help themselves. If we say there is already a guide that show you how to install adb, root, unroot, wipe, flash etc. we mean that someone took the time to create the guide for that and one can easily find it by searching.
But there are some user level things that xda needs to address, such as stickied updated user guides a better more forum level faq. I think something like that needs to be created which may cut down on common repeat questions, but why do that when it says to search first on the first sticky but they still don't anyway. It's a loosing battle any way you cut it.
Better rom layout in the dream section anyway would be a huge plus. Even as simple as have a [main dev - 1.5/hero -- 1.6 -- 2.x -- 2.x sense] would be big for the android section.
I think what makes XDA different from a lot of other internet forums is the subject matter being discussed...it is very technical in nature. Rooting, flashing of ROMs, recovery images, themes, and SPLs is pretty heavy stuff.
Lots of non-technical people own these phones, yet it takes a technical person to mod them, so naturally a lot of basic questions will be asked and naturally those already in the know will grow tired of being asked.
It was just a few weeks ago that I didn't have a clue about modding Android, but after reading a lot and asking a little, I was able to catch up pretty quickly, and I have XDA to thank for that. My only advice to my fellow forum members is because of the highly technical nature of this forum, a little extra patience is required compared to other internet forums. Yet at the same time adequate policing of mis-posting and unnecessary posting is required. Just gotta find the happy medium!
i think my autoresponse to people emailing me at [email protected] really says it all (as well as my signature - the patience bit)
the number of emails asking "how do i root" "what is root" "what is a custom rom" and even the classic "wat duz dis shizzle do yo?"
This is an automated response
Your email has been received.
This email address is exclusively for help and support with the
CM-Updater and CM ROMs.
Emails asking "how do I root?" "how do I get CM" and "what is this app
for" WILL BE IGNORED.
Emails using poor language and/or grammar such as "wat duz dis do?"
WILL BE IGNORED.
Emails using bad language and/or are rude WILL BE IGNORED.
CyanogenMOD is for the Dream/G1 and Magic/MT3G only.
If you are inquiring as to whether or not it will run on the droid,
hero or any other phone for that matter - YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE A
REPLY.
If you are looking for the IM app which was removed after 4.2.9.1
Look Here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=5208623#post5208623
I am NOT cyanogen nor do I hold any great pull with him - we just
mutually benefit from each other.
I WILL NOT forward messages to him or request features on your behalf.
If you have not received a reply within 24 hours then the chances are
your original email did not fit this criteria.
My apologies for being so strict. 20-70 emails a month for this can
get annoying when it is often down to people not reading properly.
If you require more in depth help, please consider SEARCHING the XDA forums.
As a last resort, start a new thread (in the QnA section please, not
the development section).
I WILL NOT HOLD YOUR HAND AND GIVE YOU ALL THE ANSWERS
Thank you for using the CM-Updater
Kind regards
Garok89
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ernvillanueva90 said:
Not everyone has the intelligence to do things and sometimes have to have things done for them. but if they are actually taking the time to ask a question, for the next 10 pages of posts they are getting flamed about how they are in the wrong section or how they are idiots or just snide remarks or sarcastic responses, that right there is driving people away from this forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest, if it drives away idiots who can't be arsed using the search button or even Google on their Google phones (god forbid!) then the forum will be a better place without them.
If someone posts "What's root? i can't find it on the market." they deserve to get flamed. (a surprisingly common question i get asked a lot, by the way.)
We were all beginners once, i appreciate that, but you won't get anywhere and you wont learn anything if you don't figure stuff out for yourself.
this site is so huge that sometimes a search wont find what you want, either that or it does and its lost amongst all the flames and other questions. sometimes it takes asking a question again to get what your looking for... i try to find what im doing and read up on it all before i do stuff new, like flashing the 10mb ram hack i did recently for instance. did a lot of reading and searches. and for a final to make sure asked some good people over at the irc channel...
i can see why some people get flamed, but sometimes its just an ego trip some geek thats made this stuff his life is on...
btw xda is the best site for this stuff, with all the flamers, theres still some good people that are glad to help
Meltus said:
To be honest, if it drives away idiots who can't be arsed using the search button or even Google on their Google phones (god forbid!) then the forum will be a better place without them.
If someone posts "What's root? i can't find it on the market." they deserve to get flamed. (a surprisingly common question i get asked a lot, by the way.)
We were all beginners once, i appreciate that, but you won't get anywhere and you wont learn anything if you don't figure stuff out for yourself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can understand what you are saying, but people need to be more understanding as well.
I was once flamed for not using the search button when I asked about getting really short battery life with a specific ROM. Some asshat told me that I needed to use the search function because it had already been discussed. Well, type a common subject like battery life into the search function and you're going to get a gagillion responses (just got 20+ pages doing it). After saying that in the thread, I was then told by the same guy that I should go back and read the thread by this person. That's all fine and dandy, but when the thread is damn near 150 pages long, that's not really an option either. To me, it seems as though this forum often lacks basic common courtesy unless you're one of the frequent posters even with non-beginner questions.
have anyone tried this?
have you tried searching (as per forum RULES)?
ASCIIker said:
have you tried searching (as per forum RULES)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Obviously they didnt, and its their first post, perhaps we could be a bit nicer? you know, not scare everyone new away. This whole website has become very draconian in the last few years perhaps its users could at least try and maintain some politeness and common sense
dazza9075 said:
Obviously they didnt, and its their first post, perhaps we could be a bit nicer? you know, not scare everyone new away. This whole website has become very draconian in the last few years perhaps its users could at least try and maintain some politeness and common sense
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know... if we are too nice to everyone, every noobie will post whatever they want without a second thought or searching... at least if they are worried about being flamed they may do a better job searching before posting. This forum seems to be attracting more and more noobies every day who post ridiculous things without searching first. This forum is suppose to be for developers and advanced users... at least that was what I though when I first joined and that's what attracted me to this site. I didn't post anything for years after joining because I didn't feel I had anything important to offer, and any information I needed I was able to find by searching and reading. I read these forums everyday. It seems, though, since I got a HD2 and started browsing the HD2 forums, there has seemed to be a flood of noobies and a lower quality of posts on average.
Sorry for the rant... it's just been getting irritating with all the noobie who just joined posting countless threads asking the same questions over and over because they can't spend 5 minutes to search and read.
zarathustrax said:
I don't know... if we are too nice to everyone, every noobie will post whatever they want without a second thought or searching... at least if they are worried about being flamed they may do a better job searching before posting. This forum seems to be attracting more and more noobies every day who post ridiculous things without searching first. This forum is suppose to be for developers and advanced users... at least that was what I though when I first joined and that's what attracted me to this site. I didn't post anything for years after joining because I didn't feel I had anything important to offer, and any information I needed I was able to find by searching and reading. I read these forums everyday. It seems, though, since I got a HD2 and started browsing the HD2 forums, there has seemed to be a flood of noobies and a lower quality of posts on average.
Sorry for the rant... it's just been getting irritating with all the noobie who just joined posting countless threads asking the same questions over and over because they can't spend 5 minutes to search and read.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i understand where your coming from but look at it this way, there will always be people posting comments like this, its human nature, no one reads "signs" you could have it blinking in red neon at the top of the page and still one one would see it, the polite way to deal with it rather than slag people off for asking a question that they have already asked is to answer it then tell them to search, wiki etc next time, if the user has had several posts then there is no excuse, but first time posters or even very new posters shouldnt have their heads bitten off because regardless of "rules" they do not know any better.
Think of them as children, most kids learn through doing, telling them its hot doesnt always work!
and regards to your point about every noob posting, well yes they will, you wont stop it unless like yourself they have some common sence, most do not, for many on here english is not their first language, all im saying is
they ask a stupid question, its their first question/post, politely either tell them the answer or point them too it then explain how to do it next time.
They have already created the thread, you will post a reply anyway, you may as well make it a useful reply
ironically none of us has answered him! lol
ok, go to the forum lists and look near the top you will see WP7 development, the HD2 is the most likely piece of current hardware to support the software so its mostly related to HD2
and search next time, as you can see it gets peoples backs up!
zarathustrax said:
I don't know... if we are too nice to everyone, every noobie will post whatever they want without a second thought or searching... at least if they are worried about being flamed they may do a better job searching before posting. This forum seems to be attracting more and more noobies every day who post ridiculous things without searching first. This forum is suppose to be for developers and advanced users... at least that was what I though when I first joined and that's what attracted me to this site. I didn't post anything for years after joining because I didn't feel I had anything important to offer, and any information I needed I was able to find by searching and reading. I read these forums everyday. It seems, though, since I got a HD2 and started browsing the HD2 forums, there has seemed to be a flood of noobies and a lower quality of posts on average.
Sorry for the rant... it's just been getting irritating with all the noobie who just joined posting countless threads asking the same questions over and over because they can't spend 5 minutes to search and read.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have been using WinMo since O2 Mini days. That is at least 8 years ago (if my memory serves me right). However, I still consider myself a newbie as there are so many new things each day.
And yes, I do search the forums before posting questions. But sometimes, even searches generate so much results that filtering them one by one would take a long time.
So please, have mercy on newbies like us and give us the chance to learn, and maybe we can contribute better later.
dazza9075 said:
Obviously they didnt, and its their first post, perhaps we could be a bit nicer? you know, not scare everyone new away. This whole website has become very draconian in the last few years perhaps its users could at least try and maintain some politeness and common sense
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I searched all formums before I posted.
I even searched this forum before I posted when I was only 14!
So why cant other people do the same.
i think a newbie section should done or a block on until u have looked at post info for newcomers then give people a quick guide of where to look etc
zarathustrax said:
I didn't post anything for years after joining because I didn't feel I had anything important to offer, and any information I needed I was able to find by searching and reading.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I too haven't posted because I haven't had anything to add, but I think that when you bear in mind the increasing popularity of smartphones as well as this site you are bound to come across more questions from the inexperienced.
Just remember that the search methods and site structure may not be apparent to everyone at first, as such feel free to chided them for their inexperience but at least help point them in the right direction. After all the times I have been helped by someone else asking a simple question.
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people.
No, WM7 will NEVER work in an HD2. Here is why. Each WM7 capable phone has a unique hardware ID number spacific too WM7 phones. This is for XBL Live intergration, as its a way to lock out cheaters phones from XBL and keeping the playing field even. No ID, no WM7, and only WM7 spacific phones have this ID system.
Gibbage said:
No, WM7 will NEVER work in an HD2. Here is why. Each WM7 capable phone has a unique hardware ID number spacific too WM7 phones. This is for XBL Live intergration, as its a way to lock out cheaters phones from XBL and keeping the playing field even. No ID, no WM7, and only WM7 spacific phones have this ID system.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your making one huge assumption, and that is that they can not find away to get around the block of running native code and having direct access to the APIs
i see what your saying about the online cloud intigration with live and yes that may prove to be an issue but only if your using the live software, i believe the idea would be to get the OS running with the hardware (which is a huge take in its self perhaps impossible) then Native code to allow execution ofwhatever we want, then the modding can start bypassing live intigration, remember android has heavy ties with google which has been largely stiripped out.
all im saying is dont knock it just yet, the xbox and xbox360 has been "tweeked" to work, fair enough zune HD wasnt but that had little intrest. getting drivers will be the biggest issue
lonelykatana said:
I searched all formums before I posted.
I even searched this forum before I posted when I was only 14!
So why cant other people do the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you speak english i assume, many many people on here do not speak it as their first language, that makes it tricky to search for things, try searching for something in google thats french, you should have had basic french at school but i bet you'll not find things so easy then
Just because you know something and find it easy doesnt mean others do too, the world does not revolve around English and your abilities.
All im saying is we shouldnt shout at new people, its rude, you are replying anyway so why not make it constructive by either giving the answer or showing them where to find it, THEN politely slap their wrists and correct them on the error of their ways
What Wiki says....
Wiki says, " Windows Phone 7 was thought to have been unofficially ported to the HD2, but it was later demonstrated as easy to fake with the use of a Remote Terminal connection. [9]"
What the heck?? "If it walks like a duck......"
Search for Wiki HD2. Interesting.
Junior Member???
What is this Junior Member stuff anyway. Twenty four hours ago I **** evn spel noob.
Please list me as "Second Assistant to a Junior Apprentice to a Junior Noob".
Thank You.
Ive been lurking here for a while quietly helping through PM and congratulating great work.
Over the years the members have become like the fan boys at apple. Foaming at the mouth waiting to flame a new member for not finding the answer in search or posting a relevant topic in the wrong section.
Seriously?
When the G1 came out we were all noobs. This Samsung is no different. There are alot of people new to android who picked up this device and I love it when the community grows.
FYI. XDA isn't the Bentley of android forums... we are a community of people looking to help eachother. Can we please keep the flaming to a minimum? You are wasting bandwidth.
My two cents. (now watch the number of people who tell me I'm in the wrong section.)
Sent from the best phone from TMO... Vibrant
I agree for the most part. But it does get old if there is a similar thread on the 1st page of the section. This is not a matter of being a noob to android but a noob to forum etiquette.
There are no stupid questions, but not attempting to find the answer first is a bit lazy.
I don't think its the fact that people are noobs. Its the fact that they have poor forum etiquette. Senior Members and New Members are both guilty of it. I think most people are more than willing to help or give advice. People just need to think before they post.
I hear ya on this one. Even as an android user from day 1, I, myself am guilty of becoming pompous member at times.
Back when the sh*t fest started in the G1 forum (during the Haykuro and CM C&D letter) I created a thread that was added into the "Informative links" sticky.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=568011
While I feel it mostly feel on deaf ears and blind eyes, if you think a revision of this would help, I dont mind spending some time on updating it before we post here in Vibrant forums.
Sorry OP, im not trying to hi-jack the thread, but do you mind if use this thread as a start point? maybe we can have some ppl chime in to get this updated and more in line with Vibrant forum. I already see some things I would need to change, but anymore technical info and thoughts would be appreciated.
xda-developers.com displays textbook… narcissism...
Agreed.
What about a FAQ page related to specific phone That includes the most asked questions. Specific to flashing, apk, odin, a step by step guid.
30Glock said:
What about a FAQ page related to specific phone That includes the most asked questions. Specific to flashing, apk, odin, a step by step guid.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well the problem is we have that yet people don't read it. So people post the same thing over and over again and the older members get mad and take it out on the person.
The street goes both ways. New members need to put a little effort and older members need to be a little more forgiving.
I've worked very hard on the Sticky. If someone asks the same questions I've answered over and over, I have little patience.
No we just need more aggressive moderation and banhammers. We also need English as a second language, because places like Mobile-Review.com forums are far more tame and nicer, even though no one goes there. And that's probably the main reason, since XDA is the go to place for a lot of people when it comes to smartphones, whether they are concerned about modding or not. Popularity has its downsides. And there's another stereotype that may or may not be true, but people who want to hack their phone and be on the cutting edge are also *usually foul-mouthed brats living in their mother's basement with no social life or sensibilities to speak of. Normal people don't really care about any of this. Or maybe that's geeks in general, real nasty on the net but pansies in real life.
I've done my fair share of forum moderating and admining. I have the same thought process on every on.
1.Everybody is new day one.
2. Its the senior members job to point them in the correct direction.
3. Todays newbie is tomorrows expert.
Scare new members away and who knows what they would of contributed later. Senior members if you get tired of the same old questions either be helpful and answer it or don't say anything at all. Being rude just scares away members and honestly that is not a good practice.
Hijack away I dont mind I just got tired of reading flaming posts. Its good to know im not the only one who felt that way.
I think a forum ettiquette post would be great
Sent from the best phone from TMO... Vibrant
kizer said:
I've done my fair share of forum moderating and admining. I have the same thought process on every on.
1.Everybody is new day one.
2. Its the senior members job to point them in the correct direction.
3. Todays newbie is tomorrows expert.
Scare new members away and who knows what they would of contributed later. Senior members if you get tired of the same old questions either be helpful and answer it or don't say anything at all. Being rude just scares away members and honestly that is not a good practice.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Plus 1. Thats wat I was trying to say. Perfectly worded sir.
Sent from the best phone from TMO... Vibrant
Yeah I go through and
Read many forums and the search option is not the greatest. Sometimes it'll point me to a line someone said on a thread with over 100 pages. Honestly although I try sometimes it's too much to read and a lot of bs to skim through about people arguing over who knows more. And sometimes I just get lost reading the technical stuff.
But because of some members attitudes here i am OFTEN reluctant to ask questions. They either get overlooked or people get upset. I understand a lot of times a lot of things are repeated but sometimes it's not clear the first time or someone else puts it in a different light.
I appreciate all the work done here but I wish sometimes people would just relax and have fun doing this. If someone asked a question that was already answered then YOU don't have to respond. Someone else is willing to help.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
I've been reading internet forums since the dawn of USENET. Guess what? People asking questions that are in the FAQ has always happened and always will. Yeah, it gets annoying to the long-time readers/contributers, but you have to look at it from the point of view of the new user. Believe it or not, some of them just don't know better. They don't know to read the sticky. They don't know where the search button is, or they don't know what to search for. There are a multitude of reasons, but the bottom line is, they are all individual, unique people who come here seaking an answer to a problem. They have no knowledge of the 10, 100, 1000+ people that have asked the very same question. So when you get upset about reading the same question for the eleventeenth time, you are getting mad at a person for asking one question. Not a person who has asked the same question a bunch of times.
If you look carefully, you will see that after a person comes here (and any forum for that matter) and asks a question that has been asked before, and when that person is replied to with respect and helpfulness, generally that person will not ask any other questions that have been asked before. In fact, that person very likely may become a contributer, helping other newbies a long the way.
My wife teaches college and without fail, when it gets to the last two weeks of the semester, she starts getting floods of emails "What can I do for extra credit?" "What is the policy for late work?" etc. Guess what. All of the questions are in her course syllabus that she hands out on the first day. It drives her nuts too. I try to calm her down there too.
Have you ever gone to some public service desk (DMV, taxes, hunting license, anything like that) and received very rude service for just asking a question? Because that person is fed up for answering the same question over and over again, even though there is a sign on the door that you somehow missed reading on the way in. Remember how you felt? Was it really YOUR fault?
Some of them are truly lazy and want to ask even though they truly know better and for some crazy reason they think they will get a faster response by asking rather than searching.
Bottom line is, if you are the kind of person who gets really, visibly annoyed over things like this, then internet forums may not be the best place for you to hang out. If it just annoys you a little reading the same question over and over again, then congratulations--you are human. You can either choose to respond or not respond. And if you do respond, personally, I think it is better to try to keep a positive, helpful attitude.
I agree with the OP.
I have been using forums since it was first called UseNet, as a matter of fact, I still call them "newsgroups".
XDA nowadays reminds of the reasons why I left the Media Center forums back in 2005, after having earned 2 MVPs for my help there. Those who were once newbies themselves and asked stupid questions at first became arrogant and elitist and spent more time flaming and calling names those who asked questions like they once asked, than pointing them in the right direction.
Using the search is not always the answer. There are many ways to frame or word one issue or question. What for one person is a lag, for another one is slowness, delay, performance, etc. Words can be misspelled, shortened, euphemisms can be used, etc. For many English is not even their first language.
Posts by people well acquainted with the technologies at hand can be daunting not only for newbies, but for many who are not experts. References to CM6, Odin, Clockwork, Recovery mode, etc, in the same sentence can be intimidating, when you know that a simple misunderstanding can brick your $600 phone.
Like someone else well said before, today's newbies are tomorrows experts.
I understand that seeing the same question (not necessarily stupid) for which an answer has been provided before may bother some people (not me), but instead of spending valuable time and bandwidth criticizing and frequently offending others saying things that probably wouldn't be said in person, wouldn't it be better to answer the question, or at least point the person in the right direction and then humbly instruct them how to find the answers by themselves?
The anonymity of nicknames sometimes lead people to act in a less civilized way than what they would do otherwise.
Luis
I quickly browsed through this thread to read others thoughts. Here are my own:
Yes, this forum in particular does have it's share of rude members. What I'm noticing is that a lot of people will chime in and immediately chastise the OP, or call someone an outright liar about their particular experience. What I really hate is when someone with a particularly bad attitude posts something like "Well I really don't care about...." and then proceed to go on a diatribe about how they don't care about something or how someone else is wrong or stupid. They obviously care if they opened the thread, took the time to read the thread, and then took the time to respond.
Look, we are all here to share our knowledge on something in particular that we know, and to also gain knowledge from someone else on things that we don't. My hope is that this forum becomes more helpful to the people seeking it. For instance, I never found a clear-cut answer to the question if you root the phone and apply the lag fix and whatnot, if you will still get the OTA updates that are forthcoming. Some people say yes, others say absolutely not. I didn't get the feeling that anyone who answered that question knew exactly what they were talking about. Yet, if I made a post asking, I would get slammed because it's "been answered before you stupid noob".
orells said:
Ive been lurking here for a while quietly helping through PM and congratulating great work.
Over the years the members have become like the fan boys at apple. Foaming at the mouth waiting to flame a new member for not finding the answer in search or posting a relevant topic in the wrong section.
Seriously?
When the G1 came out we were all noobs. This Samsung is no different. There are alot of people new to android who picked up this device and I love it when the community grows.
FYI. XDA isn't the Bentley of android forums... we are a community of people looking to help eachother. Can we please keep the flaming to a minimum? You are wasting bandwidth.
My two cents. (now watch the number of people who tell me I'm in the wrong section.)
Sent from the best phone from TMO... Vibrant
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
\
I think it has to do with age. I've come to the realization that this board is full of 14 year old wanking little boys, so what else to do you expect? I don't care what their birth certificate says, maturity wise, the majority of the board is all of 14. It's disgusting and if I didn't need mod info, I sure as h*ll wouldnt be here.
While I understand that search in the xda app(s) can be an exercise in frustration, there are a lot of questions being asked that a Google search would easily answer. And there is a syntax that will search only XDA of that is what you want and it works really well.
ezas said:
While I understand that search in the xda app(s) can be an exercise in frustration, there are a lot of questions being asked that a Google search would easily answer. And there is a syntax that will search only XDA of that is what you want and it works really well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lets remember, that there are a lot of new people, and people less technically savvy than you and I that come here.
kprice8 said:
Lets remember, that there are a lot of new people, and people less technically savvy than you and I that come here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would argue that being tech savvy shouldn't have a huge impact on something as simple as searching. And if they are truly that unsavvy, they probably shouldn't be at a developers site and messing with things that can complete ruin their phone.
jcollier said:
I would argue that being tech savvy shouldn't have a huge impact on something as simple as searching. And if they are truly that unsavvy, they probably shouldn't be at a developers site and messing with things that can complete ruin their phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Perhaps they come here to learn/educate and become more of said tech savvy person.
You think this will help?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+use+Google
kprice8 said:
Lets remember, that there are a lot of new people, and people less technically savvy than you and I that come here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
kprice8 said:
Perhaps they come here to learn/educate and become more of said tech savvy person.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was new once, as we all were. Do you know what I did when I was new? I read, and read, and read, and read. And when I thought I had read enough, I read some more. I believe I was a member here for a couple of months before I even made my first post because I understood the nature of this site. It's called XDA-Developers because it was started by developers, for developers. It has evolved a bit since then, but it still may not be the best place for new people to learn the basics of rooting and forum etiquette. There are other sites that serve that purpose. Once a person has gained experience at those other sites, and learned how to navigate through and search a forum for answers, they will probably find the waters much easier to tread at XDA. I too have seen the examples of people repeating questions recently asked and answered in a thread. I even saw one example where a person asked a question when the answer was literally two posts up on the same page. I know not everyone has time to read everything, but reading the OP and last say 5 pages of a thread shouldn't be too much to ask.
A related iteration of this, which I feel is worse is the request for links, especially links to info found in the same subforum (ie: user A asks a question in the S5 Q&A section, user B responds saying the answer can be found in the sticky roll up thread found at the top of the S5 Android Development section, user A responds back, "link please?") Is it really too much effort for user A to navigate over to the development section, or does user A not even know how the forum is structured because they have only ever been spoon fed links? It's like the proverb, "give a man a fish you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime." If new people are coming here to learn/educate themselves, they should probably start by learning how the forums are organized, how to navigate around the forums, and where/how the information is organized and grouped. Constantly handing someone links teaches them none of that. A lot of people here spend a lot of time helping people and answering questions. But if people are not willing to help themselves and put the effort forth to learn things, then that is pretty much on them.
I know this is rather long, sorry about that. I just had a lot on my mind as relates to this topic. This isn't meant to be mean to or discourage new people or anyone from asking questions. People should ask questions, but doesn't the learning/information gathering process involve looking for the answers yourself before seeking help?
Just my long-winded thoughts on this.
Tldr
My personal rule is 5+5. The first 5 pages (since the most basic questions will be asked there) and the last 5 pages of any thread before thinking of posting. Depending on what I read in the last 5 pages I will go back 5 more. If a thread is only a few 10s of pages long, like 30 or 40, I will catchup on the thread.
While XDA has become an end-user destination, I think it should remain a place for learning. And not just jump straight to how-do-I
There are good forums for people who want more 'personal' attention. Searching/Reading should not be an unreasonable expectation in a forum where some where some strongly condemn the use of toolkits, and/or not learning to use ADB. I don't necessarily agree, but I think the spirit of that should be maintained. For instance try to solve a problem. Then come for help when it doesn't work. This way you can better report the problem, no one has to walk you through the steps of how to try it again, etc.