Database Users

IDEA: Use your PPC as a wireless optical mouse for your PC?

I just bought a new Logitech mouse with tons of customizable buttons on it, and it got me thinking...what if you could use your PPC as a mouse for your PC? That would be the ultimate in customizability!! Think of it...not only would you have a bunch of hard buttons to play with, but you could also have a customized screen for whichever app has the focus on your PC!
I am nowhere near advanced enough to do this, nor do I know if it's even possible...just throwing it out there as an idea for whoever wants to take up the challenge. I figure it could work on most devices because the camera and flash LED are on the opposite side from the screen and buttons, and BT could be the wireless link. Heck, for that amount of customizability in a mouse I'd even settle for a wired USB version :wink:.
Well enough fantasizing for today...

you're talking about using the camera as the optical sensor?
you'd need it on a special mouse mat that emits light of some kind, and I doubt the feedback would be quick enough.
and i wouldn't fancy pushing my expensive xda around on the desk like a mouse.

Right, I was thinking of the camera as the optical sensor, and the flash LED as the light source. I have a XV6700/Apache, and when I turn on the camera and the flash and set it down on my desk, the screen isn't completely dark because the camera isn't flush against the surface...there's still enough space for light from the LED to reach the lens. Obviously this would vary from device to device...but even in cases where it's completely dark, you could put the "mouse" on top of a few mm of clear plastic or plexiglas to give the LED enough room to bounce the light over. Actually, this option might be desirable as it would address your concern about pushing your device around and getting scratches on it.
In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, using plastic/plexiglas might be better for battery life too. Instead of having the flash stay on all the time, the "mouse" could use the ambient room light to detect initial movement, which in turn would trigger a "wake event" for the flash, and then obviously the flash could be timed to turn off after so many seconds of being idle.
I know speed would likely be an issue as far as feedback goes. Sure, it wouldn't be as quick as my new Logitech laser mouse, but in video mode the camera (at least on the Apache) can go up to 19 fps...so perhaps it would be doable. Obviously you're not going to use Photoshop or play Quake with the thing . I was just thinking added convenience for everyday usage.

well all optical mice i've used have gon crazy on shiny surfaces
their cams are even made directly for this purpos
so i would think using the pda as a mouse would mean it would go even more crazy on a shiny surface
try search i recall posts about this in the past

Issues
light souce: prolong usage of you flash is bad. The life span of the flash may be different for different devices, but I'm pretty sure HTC doesn't give you a nice LED flash to be used for more than 30 seconds per usage. There are reports of 'dying' flash after using it as flashlight.
camera (major issue): phone camera is a fix lense camera (there are a few new Nokia/Sony model that arent). Such camera is not able to take clear picture of close distance object. Try taking a picture of something at a range of 3 inches , at best possible light condition. You won't get a decent picture. Even high tech digital camera is not able to take any picture of any object that is in range of less than 3 inches (even with Macro e.g. the flower, mode on). You can't do much 'mous-ing' with blur images.
It is a good idea though.

just an idea, but what about just using it as a touch pad??
dahquim

Very expensive mouse :lol:
Just get an optical RF mouse.. so much cheaper..
Come to think of it, better get a bluetooth mouse that you can use with both your PC and PPC!

Hmm, I don't know. I just imagined a Universal used as a mouse. Not a pretty picture.
Any way, as for the touch pad idea, it's fairly easy to implement, but it doesn't have the resolution to handle even blow average PC screen which is 800x600 pixels.

hanmin said:
Even high tech digital camera is not able to take any picture of any object that is in range of less than 3 inches (even with Macro e.g. the flower, mode on). You can't do much 'mous-ing' with blur images.
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OK, so let's say you have a clear glass desk and you attach a board underneath it at a distance of 3 inches so it can focus... j/k
levenum said:
as for the touch pad idea, it's fairly easy to implement, but it doesn't have the resolution to handle even blow average PC screen which is 800x600 pixels.
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I don't think dahquim meant "touch pad" to mean "tablet PC" or a remote touch-screen clone of your PC monitor (you can do that with LogMeIn). I think he meant simply losing the "mouse" functionality and keeping the ability to have the device's screen display "soft buttons" that could execute commands and that would change depending on whichever app has the focus on your PC. That would somewhat relieve one of having to remember different keyboard shortcuts for each different PC app you use. Same idea as the Optimus Keyboard but on a smaller scale.

touchpad.. ?
Touchpad idea is nice - it could work just like touchpads on laptop; ie. moving finger on mobile device screen causes mouse cursor to move on PC screen, tapping mobile device screen causes mouse click.... who'll implement this ? ;-)

hanmin said:
Issues
light souce: prolong usage of you flash is bad. The life span of the flash may be different for different devices, but I'm pretty sure HTC doesn't give you a nice LED flash to be used for more than 30 seconds per usage. There are reports of 'dying' flash after using it as flashlight.
camera (major issue): phone camera is a fix lense camera (there are a few new Nokia/Sony model that arent). Such camera is not able to take clear picture of close distance object. Try taking a picture of something at a range of 3 inches , at best possible light condition. You won't get a decent picture. Even high tech digital camera is not able to take any picture of any object that is in range of less than 3 inches (even with Macro e.g. the flower, mode on). You can't do much 'mous-ing' with blur images.
It is a good idea though.
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hanmin was right pointing these issues. i'll add some more, from a developer's point of view:
-so you want to have this as a wireless device: think of the power consumption: on one hand you need the camera to be on, with the led, and also a wireless connection for transmitting the data like BT or WiFi.. The baterry wont last long
-even if we cant get the camera to focus at nearly 1-2mm, we could still detect movement of some kind (so the idea would work..in a way or another :roll: ). but please note: there are tens of types of devices, you cant get to make the trick for all.
-it wouldnt be very precise: did you even tried to create an icon? you need to tap over the right pixel, do you think it will work with this?
-ok so you're a fanatic gamer : poor device and poor you, on one hand you'll ruing the device, on the other you'll go nuts because... : slow reaction times, low accuracy...
I see that you've thought about the idea of creating a touchpad out of the pocketpcs. I worked on such a project once. It was indeed interesting. The only problem was that: (issues again)
-the screen is not so sensitive to finger pressure as a touchpad is
-you'll mostly have to use the stilus
But at least this approach is functional.
Regards,
Radu

Yes was thinking more the "set of buttons on [email protected] that let you do quick and easy thinkgs to whatever program your using.
For example, how about being able to switch virtual desktops or having a list of programs on the ppc screen that you switch between... a la Alt-Tab??
just ideas, but of course would be completely customisable (macro buttons)
dahquim

Looks like this guy got the concept up and running on his Nokia...
http://www.pyrofersprojects.com/nokiamouse.php

What is G-Sensor?

i couldnt find a thread that explains exactly what it was... is it hardware or software...

hardware. I think its a type of accelerometer.

my wife is also interested in this.

so my phone wouldnt have it then.. doesnt the camera have some kinda sensor like it in it?

your wife needs to get a diamond or touch pro...
andason said:
my wife is also interested in this.
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gotvitamink said:
hardware. I think its a type of accelerometer.
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As far as I know it IS an accelerometer. Same thing I would say. Don't have much knowledge, but it's basically the same technology the iPhone uses. It can detect how you're holding your phone. Yes, you could use your front camera on your phone as a accelerometer and it's been asked before, but no one attempted to do so since it would consume too much battery.

Kraize92 said:
As far as I know it IS an accelerometer. Same thing I would say. Don't have much knowledge, but it's basically the same technology the iPhone uses. It can detect how you're holding your phone. Yes, you could use your front camera on your phone as a accelerometer and it's been asked before, but no one attempted to do so since it would consume too much battery.
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yea i wasn't really sure if it differed from an accelerometer. I used google and wikipedia and i couldn't find anything on G-sensor, and I didn't find G-sensor under the accelerometer wikipedia entry.
but yea, basically the technology that iPhone uses.

someone should do it...

its an accelerometer which is hardware to do what the iphone does where when u turn it to its side its screen also changes to the sideways orientation.

It detects which way the phone is facing and can detect acceleration in 3 axis.

petard said:
It detects which way the phone is facing and can detect acceleration in 3 axis.
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Ah, there is the more technical answer. It can detect movement. Basically you use the 3 axis which detects movement in all directions. You tilt left and right and you tilt up and down. I knew that just didn't know the technical meaning lol.

In most cases the G-Sensor is simply a small metal ball laying in a tub with several contacts. When you turn or move your phone, the ball moves also, connecting some of these contacts to anothers. So the phone can figure out how you hold it (portrait or landscape, upside down etc.) and can switch the screen or perform different actions. Its called G-Sensor because the ball is driven by G-Force.

What is G-Sensor ?
A G sensor is usually an accelerometer. It measures the forces that act on it during changes in velocity. The wiki article below has more details.
Source(s):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerometer

Dennis78 said:
In most cases the G-Sensor is simply a small metal ball laying in a tub with several contacts. When you turn or move your phone, the ball moves also, connecting some of these contacts to anothers. So the phone can figure out how you hold it (portrait or landscape, upside down etc.) and can switch the screen or perform different actions. Its called G-Sensor because the ball is driven by G-Force.
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False. It's a three (and probably sometimes two) axis MEMS accelerometer - there are a few companies making those, but probably the most popular ones are analog devices' ADXL series. Similar device sits in wiimote (just as a secondary motion detection system, the more accurate one is camera+sensor bar).
Because these chips became really cheap recently, and are way more accurate, reliable, and robust than any mechanical sensors (in the same price ans size range), they're being shoved in every possible device You can find them in digital cameras (used to recognize if the photo is portrait or landscape and tag it accordingly), in hard drives (to detect mechanical shocks and protect the hdd by parking its head), in laptops (usually same as above plus to detect when the computer is falling down or other dangerous situations and protect the hard drives), in cell phones (you probably know this one's uses), in toys, portable media players, and lots of other stuff.
It detects which way the phone is facing and can detect acceleration in 3 axis.
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A more precise answer is that it detects acceleration in three axes, and from these values phone's orientation can be calculated.
[MORE DETAILED EXPLANATION]
It's rather simple - when the phone is normally handled (it's not free falling and it's not being waved around), the dominant acceleration detected by the accelerometer is the gravitational acceleration (-9.81m/s^2 in vertical axis). So, if most of the time acceleration detected along the vertical axis of the phone is bigger than one detected along horizontal axis, the phone is being held in landscape position. If the situation is reversed, it's held in portrait orientation. If the acceleration is largest in the third axis (tangent to the screen), it means that the phone is being held nearly horizontally or it's lying on some surface - better not change screen orientation then
But as i said - it's only true when the dominant acceleration is the gravitational one - the sensor can't tell it from other sources of acceleration like waving the phone around. If you run one of the g-sensor games or demos and try quickly moving the phone around the desk (keeping it horizontal at all times), you'll see that the game will interpret this movement as tilting the phone.
[/MORE DETAILED EXPLANATION]
And by the way, why is this thread in development and hacking?

mr_deimos said:
False. It's a three (and probably sometimes two) axis MEMS accelerometer - there are a few companies making those, but probably the most popular ones are analog devices' ADXL series. Similar device sits in wiimote (just as a secondary motion detection system, the more accurate one is camera+sensor bar).
Because these chips became really cheap recently, and are way more accurate, reliable, and robust than any mechanical sensors (in the same price ans size range), they're being shoved in every possible device You can find them in digital cameras (used to recognize if the photo is portrait or landscape and tag it accordingly), in hard drives (to detect mechanical shocks and protect the hdd by parking its head), in laptops (usually same as above plus to detect when the computer is falling down or other dangerous situations and protect the hard drives), in cell phones (you probably know this one's uses), in toys, portable media players, and lots of other stuff.
A more precise answer is that it detects acceleration in three axes, and from these values phone's orientation can be calculated.
[MORE DETAILED EXPLANATION]
It's rather simple - when the phone is normally handled (it's not free falling and it's not being waved around), the dominant acceleration detected by the accelerometer is the gravitational acceleration (-9.81m/s^2 in vertical axis). So, if most of the time acceleration detected along the vertical axis of the phone is bigger than one detected along horizontal axis, the phone is being held in landscape position. If the situation is reversed, it's held in portrait orientation. If the acceleration is largest in the third axis (tangent to the screen), it means that the phone is being held nearly horizontally or it's lying on some surface - better not change screen orientation then
But as i said - it's only true when the dominant acceleration is the gravitational one - the sensor can't tell it from other sources of acceleration like waving the phone around. If you run one of the g-sensor games or demos and try quickly moving the phone around the desk (keeping it horizontal at all times), you'll see that the game will interpret this movement as tilting the phone.
[/MORE DETAILED EXPLANATION]
And by the way, why is this thread in development and hacking?
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How do you know this surplus of information? Was it from an engineering school / article / books / or phone dissection? How do you know this?

None of these answers made much sense, so I did a google search, found the following:
http://www.dimensionengineering.com/accelerometers.htm

poetryrocksalot said:
How do you know this surplus of information? Was it from an engineering school / article / books / or phone dissection? How do you know this?
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The theory of operation is actually pre-high school level stuff - basic physics (you know, Newton's laws, and theory of gravity)
And the details - caught some of these at the engineering university, some from accelerometer datasheets. I had to interface one of them to a programmable microcontroller a while ago so i needed to do some research on my own

I just got a TP2 and is a bit confused as to the working of the G-Sensor. I have calibrate it (and it is switched on), but nothing happens when I turn the phone sideways - ie turning to landscape mode. Am I missing something or need to activate it somewhere else?
Thanks

stoutseun said:
I just got a TP2 and is a bit confused as to the working of the G-Sensor. I have calibrate it (and it is switched on), but nothing happens when I turn the phone sideways - ie turning to landscape mode. Am I missing something or need to activate it somewhere else?
Thanks
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Hello, try to search on your programs, you will have "G-Config", it allows you to define which applications rotate.

Thanks very much. I searched but couldn't find any G-Config anyware in All programs. Only reference is the G-Sensor in All settings\System.
EDIT: Google reveiled G-Config to be a self written app. (just downloaded) So it's not a HTC app included in the ROM?

Motion Sensor Vs G Sensor

Lol this might be a dumb question but ive been lookin around and no answer... my logic tells me its the same thing but my curiosity keeps askin is there any difference? soo with that said is there any difference?

G1 Specs
Processor Qualcomm® MSM7201A™, 528 MHz
Operating System Android™
Memory
ROM: 256 MB
RAM: 192 MB
Dimensions (LxWxT) 117.7 mm x 55.7 mm x 17.1 mm
(4.60 in x 2.16 in x 0.62 in)
Weight 158 grams (5.60 ounces) with battery
Display 3.2-inch TFT-LCD flat touch-sensitive screen with 320 x 480 (HVGA) resolution
Special Features Digital Compass, Motion Sensor
Touch HD Specs
Model HTC Touch HD™ T8282
Processor Qualcomm® MSM 7201A™ 528 MHz
Operating System Windows Mobile® 6.1 Professional
Memory
ROM: 512 MB
RAM: 288 MB
Dimensions 115 mm x 62.8 mm x 12 mm
(4.35 in x 2.5 in x 0.47 in)
Weight 146.4 grams (5.164 ounces) with battery
Display 3.8-inch TFT-LCD flat touch-sensitive screen with 480 x 800 WVGA resolution
Special Features FM Radio, G-Sensor

What is the difference?

G-sensor is a gyroscope, in other words an orientation sensor.
motion sensor is more accurate, it MAY or MAY not have G-sensor's capability, this depends on the software implementation. but the hardware itself is capable of detecting and reacting to all kinds of movement.
G-sensor needs _relatively_ sudden movements to activate the gyroscope (think of a marble in box), if the phones (the box) is in landscape, and you tilt it to portrait, the gryo detects it (ie marble rolls to one side). However, if you keep the phone/box's orientation the same, and move the phone closer or further from you (assumign you ar eholding the phone): now if you move it slowly, the marbles won't roll, this is g-sensor. becaue it can't detect this movement. but if you suddenly jerk the phone/box, even if the orientation is the same, the g-sensor should detect it (ie the marble will move). ummm.. just like those dice games on iphone/itouch (if you 've seen the latest itouch commercial).
motion sensor detects all kinds of movements, it's only up to the software to decide if all functionalities are implented or only "up till" the G-sensor capabilities are implemented or something else. best example, G1's compass view, slow movement with the phone in the same orientation will pan around the map.
that being said even the motion sensor has its limits, if you move the phone uber slowly, i bet it won't detect the motion, unless it's military grade (read: 007 gadget ), if that's the case, then i don't think the phone would be $179 either

buggybug0 said:
G-sensor is a gyroscope, in other words an orientation sensor.
motion sensor is more accurate, it MAY or MAY not have G-sensor's capability, this depends on the software implementation. but the hardware itself is capable of detecting and reacting to all kinds of movement.
G-sensor needs _relatively_ sudden movements to activate the gyroscope (think of a marble in box), if the phones (the box) is in landscape, and you tilt it to portrait, the gryo detects it (ie marble rolls to one side). However, if you keep the phone/box's orientation the same, and move the phone closer or further from you (assumign you ar eholding the phone): now if you move it slowly, the marbles won't roll, this is g-sensor. becaue it can't detect this movement. but if you suddenly jerk the phone/box, even if the orientation is the same, the g-sensor should detect it (ie the marble will move). ummm.. just like those dice games on iphone/itouch (if you 've seen the latest itouch commercial).
motion sensor detects all kinds of movements, it's only up to the software to decide if all functionalities are implented or only "up till" the G-sensor capabilities are implemented or something else. best example, G1's compass view, slow movement with the phone in the same orientation will pan around the map.
that being said even the motion sensor has its limits, if you move the phone uber slowly, i bet it won't detect the motion, unless it's military grade (read: 007 gadget ), if that's the case, then i don't think the phone would be $179 either
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in other words motion sensor is better than the g sensor n that is super crack juice i was a lil worried there cause i thought g sensor would be better for some reason but thanks alot now i know something i didnt... thanks =)

In general, these are the same thing. They use a part called an Accelerometer, which measures acceleration, or the forces exerted on a mass within a chip. The force of gravity pulls it in a certain direction with 1G of force, so that's how things like the iphone can detect what orientation it's in, by looking for which direction gravity is.
By shaking the device or moving it, you also exert forces on the mass inside, and cause it to register different forces in different directions, which are reported to the OS in 3 axis.
Notebooks use the same tech to know when to park the heads. If the accelerometer suddenly sees that there is no gravity anymore, it assumes that it is moving towards the ground and will then park the heads of the drive to prevent damage.
"Motion Sensor" and "G Sensor" are the same thing, just showing that the chip can detect when it's being moved.

Correct, motion sensor and G sensor refer to the same device (accelerometer).
There is no difference apart from the name.

I have looked in every menu as far as I know, and I do not find the compass anywhere.

There are actually two "motion" sensors on the G1.
The first is the accelerometer, similar to the iPhone. It detects motion by changes in gravity on three axes. This does not mean the phone has to make big movements to detect anything. The force of gravity is, in part, determined by the distance between two objects, so the phone does not have to move for the sensor to get a reading.
The second is a digital compass, I think that there's a Nokia that has one but the iPhone does not. This, as the name implies, reads the earth's magnetic field and determines which way the phone is pointing.
I'm working on an app that will use both of these to allow the user to examine a virtual 3D object.

Actually I finally found it. It is not called 'compass mode' as advertised. You go into maps - then street view. It will say searching I think .. then you touch the spot it tells you to and there you are .. walking down the street. I don't know how often the pictures are refreshed, but must be fairly recent because I can see that I need to get my lawn mowed !!! of course .. it seems I always need to do that with all the rain here in florida, but I would rather play with my toys.

theonlynickleft said:
Actually I finally found it. It is not called 'compass mode' as advertised. You go into maps - then street view. It will say searching I think .. then you touch the spot it tells you to and there you are .. walking down the street. I don't know how often the pictures are refreshed, but must be fairly recent because I can see that I need to get my lawn mowed !!! of course .. it seems I always need to do that with all the rain here in florida, but I would rather play with my toys.
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Why you are in that screen hit menu and compass mode is in the bottom lower right corner and will react to your movements.

Thanks ... fouund it!

"TV" or "VR" glasses for Touch Pro

So I am planning getting a Touch Pro when AT&T releases it (soon). I will greatly miss the tilting screen on my Tilt, but perhaps the TV output on the Touch Pro will more than make up for it.
I am thinking about getting some "Virtual Reality" glasses, and connecting them to the tv output on the Touch Pro.
which glasses are the cheapest/best? I was hoping to find some I could see thru while I wear them if possible, so I could still see the world around me (and not miss my stop on the train).
Also- can you charge the phone while you simultaneously use the tv output? This could be great for using at work.

Good question. I remember seeing something about some that were transparent and could do overlays, which looked kinda cool.
I am just gutted that the raph does not have an electronic compass (Like the Nokia 6210), else we could have full Augmented Reality.
Electronic compass + GPS + orientation sensors = Full outdoor AR...
Camera optional if you had glasses that could do transparent overlay.

Look at a company called "Myvu". They make an assortment of HMD's, one variety being a "shade" version. These require you to look down a little bit to see the screen but you can still see straight ahead through sunglass lenses.
Personally, I am looking to buy a pair from Vuzix, mainly because they have the option of adding a light shade that makes you feel more isolated.

Unmentioned Feature: Velocity Sensitive Screen

Just something that was never mentioned in reviews (or at least personally never saw it anywhere).
Noted this after playing around with the SoundCamp app, mucking around with the "drums" section.
The screen adapts to "hard" and "soft" taps within the app using fingers only without the S-Pen (there is no "range" between light and hard). I don't know if other applications take advantage of this, have not tested others.

Could it be using the accelerometer to pick up the vibrations caused by your taps?

Killa357 said:
Could it be using the accelerometer to pick up the vibrations caused by your taps?
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The touch events include force, angle, and radius values where supported by the hardware, the accelerometer would also work but perhaps not as well since hands would dampen or enhance the values in strange ways depending on how you hold the tablet.

You mean Tab S3 got inbuilt support for force touch?

Here I thought the title was making a joke about the screen being sensitive to high velocity impacts such as drops or being thrown across the room. :cyclops:

This feature is even in iPads. In GarageBand, when you slowly tap on a piano key, it plays softer. If you tap faster, it plays louder. It's not about 3D Touch.