This question is what you have found is the most stable and feature full (or otherwise, e.g. simple ROM to add your own options) ROM that you use day-to-day.
1. Touch Surface 6.1 Public beta
2. ShadoW 2.0 TE
3. ShadoW 2.1 TE
4. Blue Elves ROM V5.0 (build 19521)
5. UC2.0 ultra clean concept rom
6. C66 @Series WM6.1 ITa V2.0 & V3.1
7. Throttle Diamond I multilanguage
8. Your original provider ROM (or provider upgrade)
9. Latest HTC 6.0 ROM
10. Latest Dopod 6.0 ROM
what should i vote for ?
i don't use any of the above mentioned ROMs
htctouchp said:
what should i vote for ?
i don't use any of the above mentioned ROMs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
which one do you use ?
colonel said:
which one do you use ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
read my signature
PDAViet
I would like to vote for PDAViet ROM's, the fastest, bloatfree one's I've used so far: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=412753
Tnx.
htctouchp said:
read my signature
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I should have combined the Dopod and HTC latest and put another line for self-cooked.
Also should have had two other lines for PDAVIEt and Other
unfortunately POLL limited to 10 options and the HTC Touch is just so well supported
Yeah.. How could you forget PDA Viet
I vote for htctouchp rom
Blue is my colour. Hehe
blasev said:
I vote for htctouchp rom
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hehe, i get a vote too
I'm using Monsterfly's ROM.. works well and i'm happy with it
For a Beta of just a week old, i'm not complaining
Ameet stop me if i try to cheat the numbers on the poll.
Noonski said:
For a Beta of just a week old, i'm not complaining
Ameet stop me if i try to cheat the numbers on the poll.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
30 day Ban for you You just gave an idea to give me 100% liking
Can I suggest that if someone is using a ROM that is not on the list, post a link to that ROM?
This way we have the opportunity to try a ROM that we might not be aware of?
Also it's unfair to have Cesare's rom up there as it's language specific which doesn't make it a rom that a lot of people would test.
Maybe it's a Genius rom but only Italians know that.
Noonski said:
Also it's unfair to have Cesare's rom up there as it's language specific which doesn't make it a rom that a lot of people would test.
Maybe it's a Genius rom but only Italians know that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On reflection the categories should have been modified to be within the 10 limit:
1. ShadoW 2.0 and 2.1 should have been merged into one option
2. HTC, Dopod & Provider Original should have been merged into one option
then the following should have been added:
8. PDAViet
9. Self-cooked
10. Other
Unfortunately one can not amend a poll once posted. And this one has some momentum so would not like to redo now. However a redo in a months time would be a good idea.
What is clear is that Blue elves and ShadoW are the most popular.
I would expect that when Blue elves 6.0 is released it will further punch into the lead.
Interesting nonetheless!
colonel said:
On reflection the categories should have been modified to be within the 10 limit:
1. ShadoW 2.0 and 2.1 should have been merged into one option
2. HTC, Dopod & Provider Original should have been merged into one option
then the following should have been added:
8. PDAViet
9. Self-cooked
10. Other
Unfortunately one can not amend a poll once posted. And this one has some momentum so would not like to redo now. However a redo in a months time would be a good idea.
What is clear is that Blue elves and ShadoW are the most popular.
I would expect that when Blue elves 6.0 is released it will further punch into the lead.
Interesting nonetheless!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude
These Roms have been out for months and downloaded by many.
Looking at the download numbers your predictions might be off.
But PDAVIEt also has a great and fearsome fandom.
But swift coming back to Elf Hmm, last thing i heard he was busy with getting that horrible Diamond Phone up to snatch and with the rate of changes going on that will keep him busy.
Unless i have missed some posts on the Blue Elves thread last thing i heard him say was that he was not planning on making a new Elves.
But in numbers it's logical that Elves leads. More stable and more apps.
And people seem to like black.
But it does look like Graphics isn't always the deciding factor.
Well i've been using the TS beta now for a lot of days
And liking it more and more, maybe going to to hack it even more after it's final and I learn how to cook myself
aieeeeeeee karamba! blue elves 6.0!! thats coooooool.
ayyu3m said:
aieeeeeeee karamba! blue elves 6.0!! thats coooooool.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well Swift drop by at HTCToucP's thread.
He no longer has an ELFIN.
Related
The info for the rom will come tommorow morning. i'm just too tired and it's too late to provide it right now but read the last post as it gives you a good idea of whats in the rom.
Download
_reserved 1_
_reserved2_
Cool, i 'll test it when it avalaible. Thx for all the job.
I want to test it too. Plz cook an ITA version
Y 19202 build and not 19209? There is already a kitchen for polaris with 19209 in this forum by udK
Ready to test Pawel062 ! and thx in advance for your work!
Ready and very willing to test when you have something testable.
Good luck!
Yes actually i'm not ready just yet...would greatly appreciate it if you could delay your release by approximately 2 weeks, possibly three i'll get back to you with a definite date later on. Thank you.
Can't wait.....
wonderiuy said:
I want to test it too. Plz cook an ITA version
Y 19202 build and not 19209? There is already a kitchen for polaris with 19209 in this forum by udK
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
wow. sry i made a spelling mistake. i did say it was based on bepe's latest rom which is 19209 but nice catch anyway. fixed in the first post. thanx. there will be the same languages as bepes rom since im using his kitchen. the different versions and whats included in them might change.
thanx to everyone for being patient and understanding. at this point im doing 2 roms at the same time. athena and polaris. athena is only wwe with lite/full versions and thats it. polaris will be different languages and more versions with different apps in each of them so the polaris rom is more work.
Hi,
But we can see the new baby when?
ZzZzZzZz.... ;-)
Waiting them to probe Spanish version!!!!
just a little screen and some specification to make the buzz grow up
Pawel062 said:
bepe since i talk with him every day i know is busy working on something. dont know if he will be working on roms but of course i will be making a rom with his kitchen and im sure he'll give me all the stuff he would of used for his rom anyway(latest apps i mean). i'll be sure though to ask him tommorow since i know he is sleeping now if he will be releasing anything new.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so,people bought you polaris in order to make a rom and you will give a rom same with bepe's?
this is the reason that we wait for so much time, amazing.
geomall said:
so,people bought you polaris in order to make a rom and you will give a rom same with bepe's?
this is the reason that we wait for so much time, amazing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow, you can just never please some people.
Isn't it a good thing that they are building on each other's work? No point reinventing the wheel over and over; two heads are better than one!
geomall said:
so,people bought you polaris in order to make a rom and you will give a rom same with bepe's?
this is the reason that we wait for so much time, amazing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then build your own rom if you know it so good. Almost every rom builder uses parts of someone else his rom. Anyway building a "Good" rom isn't easy so please stop sending this kind of messages.
He is just ranting out his disappointment.
He paied for 2 phone, 1 of them produced good results while the other produced nothing.
In the meanwhile bepe released fabulous ROM without asking donations (and he got even more donations than Polaris Project, and this should make some PM think)
Aserg release a superb ROM wit switchable services
Swtos released one of the first ROM, very nice
Udk, proud of his tytnII ROM, produced one of the best round ever.
i will be very glad if all this cookers work together in the PP
Now the polaris project will use the same kitchen as bepe's.
Bepe's ROM has many bugs. I dont mind if the PP is based on bepe's ROM, but plz, give us a ROM without bugs (and also clean and fast)
Take all the time u need PP
And the worst of all is, that e.g. geomall even did not donate
one cent to the PP, so far I can see
So what, dude ?! IMO you guys should veeeery quietly "leech" the
ROM whenever it is avaiable and not complaining things for that you
didn't do anything to support development
Of course just my 2c
Olioaglio
so,everybody here believes that the right way to make a rom is first to take money and after 4 months make the rom?
and not the way bepe-swtos-udk-panosa-aserg and others do
I am complicated to believe that,but if is that you want there is no problem with me
be sure i will not use this great project,i will use my rom(very easy) or others rom and i will donate.i did that many times
the only thing i don,t like is the behavior...........
Feel free to tell us why you prefer him, which version do you think he made better and why.
What applications would you like to see in his next version?
What applications you'd like to see removed on his next version?
Important note: This is a thread NOT meant to diminish anyone or his skills, or the other way around. It's meant for people to compare the pros and cons on their ROMs, helping them make better ones, and helping the users decide which one they see most fit to their purposes.
Everyone is voting, but no one has yet given any reasons why to like or dislike someone's ROM.
Come on people, I bet they want feed back, and so do we!
I only used bepe's and udK's ROMs, and for a very short period. I think bepe's ROMs are great because he makes 4 different versions with different applications in them. Right now I'm using latest Vega R1 from udK and liking it, but I'm looking forward some minor bug fixing (like the italian text in the cube) in next R2.
I tried many swtos, bepe and udk ROMs...
Result for me is that udKs ROM is without erros, fast and very stable
Ok, after trying all of them i cocluded to udK's R1 because apart from the fact that it is very fast and stable, it has a different design and looks than all the other common ROMs.
I prefer to see something new except that full-light-skinny, etc!
I Would suggest cookers to have a look at this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=390543
So i guess we need some new ideas!!!
similar poll can be found here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=388580
I've been runnig Bepe for a couple of months - it seems pretty bomb-proof, I haven't been able to find any fault.
(o2 XDA Orbit 2)
HTH
Leon
About the poll
mavvy4ever said:
similar poll can be found here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=388580
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Indeed, there is, but with particular ROM and not the latest ones. I created this one so people could express how they feel with the ROMs they've been using over the time. And especially for people to discuss what they like more and/or less in the ROMs, so it can help cookers do their job even better, and to help the new guys (like myself) understanding what they should want on the ROMs they install.
The builds, the applications, the stability of the OS, everything should be discussed here. Even though there are hundreds of other threads to do so.
athanaso77 said:
Ok, after trying all of them i cocluded to udK's R1 because apart from the fact that it is very fast and stable, it has a different design and looks than all the other common ROMs.
I prefer to see something new except that full-light-skinny, etc!
I Would suggest cookers to have a look at this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=390543
So i guess we need some new ideas!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I Agree with athanaso..some new ideas like TOM..
I prefer Infido but he's not in the choices nice, essential and fast ROM.
So i voted Bepe
I agree with new stuff and appearance, if they don't affect the overall performance of the device. It's always great to see a new face on our handheld.
batista70 said:
I prefer Infido but he's not in the choices nice, essential and fast ROM.
So i voted Bepe
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry about that. I only made the Poll with the top 5 contributors on this board (at least the most recent ones). I also tried a ROM previous to bepe and udK's, but don't know who made it. A friend gave it to me, and it was nice. But I prefer the udK's.
On the bepe's ROM I tried, 0.67 Opera, I had an issue with the Opera installed which didn't let me Zoom In / Zoom Out more than once. It's a fixed Zoom, and sometimes I need to Zoom just a bit and I couldn't. Also tried to install the latest Opera Mobile on that ROM, but couldn't get that feature to work.
Since udK's does not provide Opera browser, when I installed the latest version, it gave me the option to Zoom at will. That was the main reason I stuck with it.
Btw, since you people test a whole lot of ROMs, can you please tell me how do you backup stuff from one to another? I tried to backup email accounts and GPRS connections once, from one ROM to the next one, but couldn't get it to work properly. Is there a tool which is compatible with any ROM?
Thanks.
Voted 4 bepe for the qualtity and the versatility of his ROM.
He has 4 lines of ROM in 5 Languages.
My vote would go to udK cuz the ROM is a lil better than bebe's...but there is only 1 version in only 1 language
yvopt said:
I agree with new stuff and appearance, if they don't affect the overall performance of the device. It's always great to see a new face on our handheld.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly!
we need a poll? The best udk's rom
UDK's rom is super fast...but I use bepe's simply because I don't like the soft new key and also when you press on the email icon on home screen it goes to messaging and not direct to email like on bepe's rom...Have I know how to change that I'd probably go with UDK's ROM
le55 said:
we need a poll? The best udk's rom
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i vote for this..
The statistics, so far, say otherwise though.
I always wondered why is bepe's ROM Sticky and no one else's is. Anyone have an answer to this?
yvopt said:
The statistics, so far, say otherwise though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
possibly because bepe's rom was (one of) the first released
yvopt said:
I always wondered why is bepe's ROM Sticky and no one else's is. Anyone have an answer to this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
same reason
Voted for Aserg
i've tried them all but Aserg's ROM is the fastest and also stable.
yvopt said:
I always wondered why is bepe's ROM Sticky and no one else's is. Anyone have an answer to this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cause bepe has longer history in this forum. He is a well known cooker (from previous devices also) and all XDA community respect that.
Hi,
All the "official" versions does not seem to really official ones there are too many bugs that remind of a cooked ROM
does HTC really going to publish ROM WM6.1 for Polaris?? when??
uh yeah HTC confirmed that they are working on a new ROM with WM6.1, and it will be released any time now..
Guy.xda said:
Hi,
All the "official" versions does not seem to really official ones there are too many bugs that remind of a cooked ROM
does HTC really going to publish ROM WM6.1 for Polaris?? when??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the ones released is cooked, fake...
It has typical flaws that comes with cooked ones
itje said:
the ones released is cooked, fake...
It has typical flaws that comes with cooked ones
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ahah, you think that this ROM it's a fake?! how can you say this?
well, when I flash that rom, unmodded, My startbutton and my screen is messed up, just like in several builds that both I and others has ported. This goes for polaris, herald and kaiser.
If I replace certain files in sys with ones from original wm6.0 rom (polaris), that problem goes away. Same if I make a rom for Kaiser..I take this file from the official build and replace in the ported one, the problem go away.
This issue is well known with newer ports. I really doubt HTC would release a such obvious flaw (But then again..I would not be surprised either)
I might be wrong in beliving its a fake, but I really dont belive its the final product. I dont know what source you get the rom from, and I can "eat my words" if im wrong.
I wanna add that I dont question your honesty UDK, not at all. Cause I have had my share of supply of official builds, that has turned up to be fake.
udk and itje
Gosh, if Norway and Switzerland work together, then a bomb will come out of it.
Not your opinion?
LOL
@itje: Unfortunately, this is the final release and yes, does not works well, it's run very slow and there are some lag.. the ITA version is much slower than the WWE version, but I repeat, these ROM are not fake, there is also a RUS, GER and SPA version with the same core and OEM, are all fake? I think no
udK said:
@itje: Unfortunately, this is the final release and yes, does not works well, it's run very slow and there are some lag.. the ITA version is much slower than the WWE version, but I repeat, these ROM are not fake, there is also a RUS, GER and SPA version with the same core and OEM, are all fake? I think no
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hello,
Can we have a French one PLZ
Where do you find this ROM ? Have you special access on HTC club ? have you a friend who works for an operator or HTC?
If you think it is a fake rom, why not go to the HTC site and see if an official rom is available... I would do this however I have an O2 Orbit not official HTC cruise!
udK said:
@itje: Unfortunately, this is the final release and yes, does not works well, it's run very slow and there are some lag.. the ITA version is much slower than the WWE version, but I repeat, these ROM are not fake, there is also a RUS, GER and SPA version with the same core and OEM, are all fake? I think no
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hehe
Both you and me can make multilanguage based on same core and OEM.
Slow and lag..all official roms I have seen has slowness and lagging.. So I didnt base my doubts on that.
Its more the booting issues that makes me wonder. But hey, I am man enough to say I was wrong, so im not gonna sit here and go on fight for something that I cant prove.
Either its this or that, we'll just see when the official hits the support pages at HTC, if it has the same issue, then we know if its the final official build or not that is here with us now
tvrtim said:
If you think it is a fake rom, why not go to the HTC site and see if an official rom is available... I would do this however I have an O2 Orbit not official HTC cruise!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You don't think we do that several times a day?
"There are currently no software downloads available in this category."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I even have a program reloading the page once an hour. As soon as the above message is changed I get alerted
udK said:
ahah, you think that this ROM it's a fake?! how can you say this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think they are fake, since they are signed and flashable without HardSPL. But if they are the final release or some test/preview we don't know until they are posted on the web.
They have been available for some time already, if they indeed are the final build, why are they still not put on htc.com?
Perhaps they are going to re-package udK's Syrius or Itjes latest and release those instead.The Polaris user group would be much happier then
Spanish ROM
I´ve installed the spanish rom and if I use the original SPL it gets changed by a new one with version POLA100/3.130000/CPLD-2.
I´ve never seen that on a cooked rom.
Hi,
in my opinion, this is the first and last update from HTC for POLARIS
M-Amine said:
Hi,
in my opinion, this is the first and last update from HTC for POLARIS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agree totally with you. A device such as ours last for a year. Why do you want HTC people to devote time on present and past devices ? They have already announced new generations to come within the next few months.
Still, I think my Polaris will still be useful until such time a much much better PDA comes to light.
Besides, take away XDA-developers and some other sites, do you think the manufacturers will have more creative minds? No sir, people like you and other
guys alike itje and udk are their main contributors for good ideas. Our forums are read daily by all manufacturers.
Keep it up
udK said:
@itje: Unfortunately, this is the final release and yes, does not works well, it's run very slow and there are some lag.. the ITA version is much slower than the WWE version, but I repeat, these ROM are not fake, there is also a RUS, GER and SPA version with the same core and OEM, are all fake? I think no
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is the Official German o2 release of wm 6.1 that much different than HTC version aside from not having the HTC homepage, etc..?:
http://www.o2online.de/nw/assets/blobs/software/xdaorbit2-windows-update.exe
Xda orbit 2: Version 1.59.42.15 (ca. 83 MB)
Professional Windows Mobile 6.1
SMS display in the chat style
Improved stand-by time
MS Exchange 2007 Improved support for MS Exchange 2007
Pocket Internet Explorer with Pocket Internet Explorer page overview
Opera Browser Opera browser
Remote Desktop Client Remote Desktop Client
Wizard "Getting Started" wizard
Yes... with 6.1, the Polaris just becomes a more stable version of itself, with some enhancements -- more of what it should've been upon release. Will definitely hold us over until WM7, at which point it'll be a good time to get a newer device
joscopp said:
...I think my Polaris will still be useful until such time a much much better PDA comes to light...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
pananza said:
I don't think they are fake, since they are signed and flashable without HardSPL. But if they are the final release or some test/preview we don't know until they are posted on the web.
They have been available for some time already, if they indeed are the final build, why are they still not put on htc.com?
Perhaps they are going to re-package udK's Syrius or Itjes latest and release those instead.The Polaris user group would be much happier then
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the reason they don't post it on the web is because not all languages are ready yet. When they post it every language should be available or there will be another problem, right ?
For now I'm using wwe (waiting for portuguese) and it works flawlessly. Ok, I don't have manilla but all radio function work, I've got voip working, I can use wmplayer with htc home (so my calls don't get everything malfunctioning while using bluetooth), and I got portuguese keyboard working (registry tweak needed). So I think it's probably the real deal. And let's face it if they released a upgrade with manilla would you buy the new touch for 600€ while you can get a polaris for 400€ nowadays? So we will be stucked with a stripped version of wm6.1 or if you look on the bright side at least is wm6.1 and stable.
Here is the TIME for Official WM6.1 on htc.com ???
I think the TIME is coming NOW !!! Because the link now not available, but only the Cruise Software site !!! I hope sooooo
I kind of loosing the overview of what Rom contains what feature and what unsolved bugs.
I'd like to have an overview table/chart where one can see all features for each ROM
Beside this, I get the impression none of the cooked ROMs is working bug-less. It seems to be a neverending problem which eventually get forgotten when new XDAs coming out /
Yep, I second that...but I think the best answer to this is: Test yourself, flash 3 different ROMs and compare your own. Nobody here knows which apps you are using, which version, which language. There are many things which can cause problems, so it´ll be best for you to test each of the ROMs for a week or so.
For me M-Amine is quite a good ROM, I think maybe udK Syrius R1 (+the fixes, see extra thread) is even better..but as I said: compare your own, even if its time-intense.
regards,
Martin
sry, double posted somehow. to mods, please delete this one, thx.
m.schmidler said:
Yep, I second that...but I think the best answer to this is: Test yourself, flash 3 different ROMs and compare your own. Nobody here knows which apps you are using, which version, which language. There are many things which can cause problems, so it´ll be best for you to test each of the ROMs for a week or so.
For me M-Amine is quite a good ROM, I think maybe udK Syrius R1 (+the fixes, see extra thread) is even better..but as I said: compare your own, even if its time-intense.
regards,
Martin
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
m.schmidler is quite correct i have tried many roms and while some people rave about a specific rom i have found it no good for my purposes at the moment i am using M-Amine and for me it is the best one so far but try a few for your self.
I come back to Touch-IT 3.5 - for me the best one
batista70 said:
I come back to Touch-IT 3.5 - for me the best one
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
reasons???
I tried almost all roms except ANIME now i'm with TouchIT 3.6 and its great
Maybe we can make some form so ppl can fill and then some1 will put it all together so we have table of each rom speed bugs etc.
Maybe something like this:
ROM | WM VER | RADIO VER | STUFF NOT WORKING | FIX AVAILABLE/NOT | SPB BENCHMARK ................. something like this
Its like heads of columns, would be great in excel or some thing like this then you'll collect all reports and make one file
@ bnm7bnm: would be a lot of work..and who do you think would do this work ? I suggested something similar when I came new to this forum, but nobody of the chefs showed any interest, I just got offended and was advised just to read the threads xD
[email protected] said:
reasons???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
'cause it's stable, fast, freeze rarely, i like full black skin and with a little cab you can see videos from Photo Tab.
Here it is the cab :
Well, still WM65 is not being officially released, but thx to all dev's here, there are already some ROMs to try out.
I just saw a video of a recent ROM built
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCHhzRzvQb8
(based on this ROM http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=530620)
Well, the today-screen looks ok. Somehow. I might miss the Tochflo2D, as I got already used to it pretty good.
But what I see (and already found out with some prior WM65 ROMs), I miss the "regular start menue". 7 favorite apps and 5 recent used apps.
So here is the poll question:
WM61 or WM65?
its too early for this
hi
i do appreciate ur effort but dont u thing its too early for this as MS has not yet released the original version of 6.5 and all existing 6.5 are only beta
and yes naturally their are many bugs in the now available 6.5
once MS has launched the official 6.5 then we can do the comparison
this is just my suggestion thats all
and the ROM u have mentioned in the below link has been provided by me (not created just provided to that's all)
and the newer versions which i have also posted do have both M2d & titanium so u can also enjoy M2d & titanium on 6.5
DaM79 said:
Well, still WM65 is not being officially released, but thx to all dev's here, there are already some ROMs to try out.
I just saw a video of a recent ROM built
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCHhzRzvQb8
(based on this ROM http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=530620)
Well, the today-screen looks ok. Somehow. I might miss the Tochflo2D, as I got already used to it pretty good.
But what I see (and already found out with some prior WM65 ROMs), I miss the "regular start menue". 7 favorite apps and 5 recent used apps.
So here is the poll question:
WM61 or WM65?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi haree,
my poll is just about the GUI, today-screen, etc, not about bugs or so...
So I think it is not too early, somehow.
hi Dam79
no offense buddy just stated what i thought in fact i voted on this poll tooo
DaM79 said:
Hi haree,
my poll is just about the GUI, today-screen, etc, not about bugs or so...
So I think it is not too early, somehow.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no prob! didnt want to sound rude or so...
hey, another one voted for old school! nice!