Related
I also posted this over on howardforums. Thought it might be device specific, so I'm posting it here as well.
I just got a TyTn (628 s/n). I live and work in North San Jose, CA. When I turn on the phone, I get the "U" (UDMS available) for a few seconds, then it goes back to "G" (GPRS) and never returns to U.
I've stood a few hundred feet from a known Cingular 3G UDMS tower (corner of Nortech Pkwy & Disk Dr, San Jose) - same results...
I've "only" got the Media Net unlimited plan, and I'm connecting to wap.cingular. Could this be the problem? They're denying UDMS access to my account based on my data plan? Should I upgrade to PDA Connect?
Thanks!
Naw, I was in San Jose this weekend, and 3G was pretty spotty, except in certain places. At my friends house, I had 3G completely; but it was a HUGE battery waster. So unless I'm tied to a charger, I wouldn't use my phone very much in a 3G area. Unless they release an extended battery that is. I'm also on the $19.99 plan, and I was averaging about 600Kbps with 2-3 bars. You're fine on the data plan.
darkjedi said:
Naw, I was in San Jose this weekend, and 3G was pretty spotty, except in certain places. At my friends house, I had 3G completely; but it was a HUGE battery waster. So unless I'm tied to a charger, I wouldn't use my phone very much in a 3G area. Unless they release an extended battery that is. I'm also on the $19.99 plan, and I was averaging about 600Kbps with 2-3 bars. You're fine on the data plan.
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Click to collapse
Hm, thanks.
I had full battery when I left around 2pm, a little browsing, speed tests, and push e-mail, I was at 20% around 9pm...that's really bad . Granted, I did have the backlight on a lot, and even had a few calls come in, so that wasn't just on standby. But I think it's the same drain as WiFi would be.
darkjedi said:
I had full battery when I left around 2pm, a little browsing, speed tests, and push e-mail, I was at 20% around 9pm...that's really bad . Granted, I did have the backlight on a lot, and even had a few calls come in, so that wasn't just on standby. But I think it's the same drain as WiFi would be.
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Click to collapse
That's ridiculous. I thought my Treo was bad..
Between battery life and lack of a good mail client, this might have to go on ebay .
Granted, I WAS using it a bit, so I can see why it drained, but it's a bit much if you ask me. So I'd only really use 3G if I had a charger or an extended battery (which I don't think they do).
Install the field test utility and tell me what do you see in the "2G reselection status" when it goes to G. San Jose is well covered and the opposite should happen i.e., G for 1 or 2 seconds and then U
We are founding in many instances exterior interference from illegal repeaters and some lab equipements which are causing a high level of noise in some cells forcing the phones to reselect to GSM.
While on GSM a 3G phone always scans the UMTS band in the background searching for good signals ( good signal strength and low inteference ). If the inteference ( measured by Ec/No) is high it will not go to UMTS
austin_boy said:
Install the field test utility and tell me what do you see in the "2G reselection status" when it goes to G. San Jose is well covered and the opposite should happen i.e., G for 1 or 2 seconds and then U
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Click to collapse
austin_boy:
First of all, thank you for your help.
I just went back to the HTC firmware since the Cingular didn't do anything for me. All of the field test options just say N/A - Do I need to go back to the newer Cingular firmware for it to work?
Thanks!
I'll be in San Jose next week to see how the HTC ROM goes.
darkjedi said:
I had full battery when I left around 2pm, a little browsing, speed tests, and push e-mail, I was at 20% around 9pm...that's really bad . Granted, I did have the backlight on a lot, and even had a few calls come in, so that wasn't just on standby. But I think it's the same drain as WiFi would be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Push email with 3G is a battery killer ...
That could be it as well, as it was enabled the whole time...
Update: Got a 3G SIM from the Cingular store and it works great now .
I figured as much That's great news
any1 els having this problem where it constantly switches from 3g and edge my g1 has a stable 3g but the nexus jus keeps losing it
Once mine locked on to 3G it has stayed on 3G. T-Mobile just launched 3G in my town before Christmas, not that it matters.
However, it is not as fast as AT&T 3G here.
I too have problem with 3G here the signal strength seems too low like 2 bars but on Nokia n900 i get like 4 bars even n1 seems switching back n forth between edge and 3g. while n900 stays 3G all the time at same place..
I will try this device for week and see if the problem is everywhere or something with tmobile network or else i have it send back.
theres a huge thread going on now on google about this issue. Hopefully they address this soon. http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Google+Mobile/thread?tid=0bd8ccd4799040c2&hl=en
This happened all the time on my G1.
Perhaps it is Tmo.
As a comparison, what are peoples experiences in the UK with 3G?
This might help determine if it is a phone or network issue.
I'm having the same problem. I have a T-Mobile Touch Pro2 and a nexus one. the Touch pro2 holds on two bars of 3G while the N1 switches to EDGE. Sometimes it starts to hesitate between EDGE and 3G causing apps to say "connection problems". It seems that in order to feature a long battery life, it favors EDGE over 3G and the threshold for 3G is too high.
Where there's strong 3G footprint, the N1 shows full bar, but somehow it doesn't seem as fast as it should be (7.2 Mbps) although the fast processor and rendering compensates for that.
Hope they fix that soon. It's most likely a software problem. I recall the iPhone 3G suffered from a very similar issue when it was first released.
Im having this issue.
at 1st i thought it was only me, until i saw the post on Gizmodo. and looking at this link " http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Google+Mobile/thread?tid=0bd8ccd4799040c2&hl=en&fid=0bd8ccd4799040c200047c99c44ddfe6"
it looks like alot of ppl are experiencing this issue. Im at work and ive always had full 3g bars with my MT3G, and my Nexus One keeps going in and out of it.. for the most part it stays on EDGE.. GRRRRR hope it gets fixed with a firmware update.
Anyone in UK with this issue?
I to am experiencing this issue in Florida
When I do tests from speedtest app I can get decent downloads anywhere from 500-900kbps, but upload somtimes is pitiful..often less than 100kbps.
I have also noticed that when I check my phone status and look at the network connection, it fluctuates between UTMS and HSDPA.
I have found that when I plug my N1 into the wall charger it seems to hold onto 3G much better along with better speeds. Not a solution, but maybe a clue to understanding cause?
saint327 said:
I have found that when I plug my N1 into the wall charger it seems to hold onto 3G much better along with better speeds. Not a solution, but maybe a clue to understanding cause?
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Have you tested plugging it in in various parts of your house or where ever you are plugging it into to see if it helps the reception situation?
I really hope they get this figured out soon. I am holding off on hitting that Place order button until it's all ironed out. It's definitely a test of my will power. I was going to order it last night until I started seeing this issue crop up all over the place...
elkavayo said:
I'm having the same problem. I have a T-Mobile Touch Pro2 and a nexus one. the Touch pro2 holds on two bars of 3G while the N1 switches to EDGE. Sometimes it starts to hesitate between EDGE and 3G causing apps to say "connection problems". It seems that in order to feature a long battery life, it favors EDGE over 3G and the threshold for 3G is too high.
Where there's strong 3G footprint, the N1 shows full bar, but somehow it doesn't seem as fast as it should be (7.2 Mbps) although the fast processor and rendering compensates for that.
Hope they fix that soon. It's most likely a software problem. I recall the iPhone 3G suffered from a very similar issue when it was first released.
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Click to collapse
I find that the threshold for 3g is better balanced than on my htc magic. On the magic it was all too often to have one bar of 3g and not be able to download anything, timing out with connection errors. Nexus one works much better at low bars but also switches to edge/gprs when it's needed. I am on voda in uk from a house with fairly spotty 3g. So, for me I get a more consistent connection than with my magic.
vas41 said:
I find that the threashhold for 3g is better balanced than on my htc magic. On the magic it was all too often to have one bar of 3g and not be able to download anything, timing out with connection errors. Nexus one works much better at low bars but also switches to edge/gprs when it's needed. I am on voda in uk from a house with fairly spotty 3g. So, for me I get a more consistent connection than with my magic.
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Perhaps this is true, but I have also been reading about people with G1s (and one guy with a TP2) that consistently get better reception with their old phones over that of the nexus. This is the part that disturbs me the most.
Maybe it's a power management issue which may be highlighted by the fact that plugging it in seemed to help?
rossiscatch said:
Have you tested plugging it in in various parts of your house or where ever you are plugging it into to see if it helps the reception situation?
I really hope they get this figured out soon. I am holding off on hitting that Place order button until it's all ironed out. It's definitely a test of my will power. I was going to order it last night until I started seeing this issue crop up all over the place...
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Click to collapse
Yeah, I've tried it both unplugged and plugged in in the same location. Haven't tried other power outlets/locations in home. I fall into the category of those who had a G1 and got solid 3G at the same location.
Anyone tried it plugged into a wall socket with one eye closed standing on a chair with the phone up your arse? Works like a dream.
vas41 said:
I find that the threshold for 3g is better balanced than on my htc magic. On the magic it was all too often to have one bar of 3g and not be able to download anything, timing out with connection errors. Nexus one works much better at low bars but also switches to edge/gprs when it's needed. I am on voda in uk from a house with fairly spotty 3g. So, for me I get a more consistent connection than with my magic.
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Click to collapse
Based on my experience, I'd have to disagree with you with respect to the Nexus, although you compare it to a phone that I do not have. More often than not, when Nexus has 1 or even 2 bard of 3G the link is totally unreliable and in most cases the application ends up showing a message box that says "no connection available: retry" (not exact wording), unless it switches to EDGE, there's no guarantee data will be exchanged with the cloud. On the very same spot, at the very same time, Touch Pro2 is able to maintain at least 2 bars of 3G and download speeds of 600 Kbps, while the Nexus is forced to 130 Kbs.
I drove today 25 miles (office to home) checking the nexus behavior, and only in very rare instances was able to keep full bars of 3G, in places where I know the 3G is strong.
I have also not seen the Nexus connecting through HSPA, only EDGE or UMTS, but I don't blame Nexus for that. It could be that this area has not been upgraded, in spite of T-Mo announcement that 100% of its network was HSPA.
rossiscatch said:
Perhaps this is true, but I have also been reading about people with G1s (and one guy with a TP2) that consistently get better reception with their old phones over that of the nexus. This is the part that disturbs me the most.
Maybe it's a power management issue which may be highlighted by the fact that plugging it in seemed to help?
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Click to collapse
I might be the guys with teh TP2 ;-) and I can confirm that.
Honestly, it's frustratig for all of us that jumped into the Nexus bandwagon after all the hype and big expectations, but I'm not too concerned about it. The iPhone 3GS went through almost the same situation verbatim when it was launched. I'm pretty sure this is a software issue and can be upgraded with an OTA patch. I'd say that it's in the best interest of all the parties involved (Google, HTC, T-Mo) to resolve the issue quickly and avoid the media backslash.
Now I may be wrong, and it could be a hardware issue, and then I guess Google will be seeing a lot of returns.
elkavayo said:
Based on my experience, I'd have to disagree with you with respect to the Nexus, although you compare it to a phone that I do not have. More often than not, when Nexus has 1 or even 2 bard of 3G the link is totally unreliable and in most cases the application ends up showing a message box that says "no connection available: retry" (not exact wording), unless it switches to EDGE, there's no guarantee data will be exchanged with the cloud. On the very same spot, at the very same time, Touch Pro2 is able to maintain at least 2 bars of 3G and download speeds of 600 Kbps, while the Nexus is forced to 130 Kbs.
I drove today 25 miles (office to home) checking the nexus behavior, and only in very rare instances was able to keep full bars of 3G, in places where I know the 3G is strong.
I have also not seen the Nexus connecting through HSPA, only EDGE or UMTS, but I don't blame Nexus for that. It could be that this area has not been upgraded, in spite of T-Mo announcement that 100% of its network was HSPA.
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It does not indicate on the notification bar when it connects to hsdpa, but if you go to settings, about phone, status you will see it show any one of the following: gprs, edge, umts, hsdpa. BTW my htc magic never showed hsdpa, always stayed on umts (when in 3g), not sure if this is because of the difference in notification between 1.6 and 2.1 or whether the nexus one really does connect at higher speeds than magic. I also have another phone on the same network in my household, which is a blackberry bold 9700 and it gets similar reception to nexus one, alternating between gprs/edge/3g in my house.
I am having this 3g/edge problem aswell, i am also not able to be on wifi and 3g at the same time.
Blueman101 said:
I am having this 3g/edge problem aswell, i am also not able to be on wifi and 3g at the same time.
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Click to collapse
When you connect over wifi the phone disconnects from the mobile network (gprs/3g) and instead uses wifi connection. It is not possible to be connected to both.
what does the h mean? sometimes wjen i startup some app lets say msn the 2 3G icons say H instead of 3g, what does this mean? cus most of the time when it goes to H it wont connect to msn
H mean HSPDA and it's super fast 3G in effect so it's better your connected via that than the standard 3G.
I have read about this. It is supposed to be here in Austin on Tmobile but I have yet to see the "H" on my phone. All I see is the 3G symbol and mine was shipped with the newest ROM available.
get a custom rom
The range of HSDPA from the cell tower is vastly smaller than with gsm(gprs/edge) or 3g, its not that many hundreds of meters, so if you live say a few K from the tower, or a large obstruction between your house and the tower, the phone will likely drop down a level to get a more stable signal, so even though the maps say it is enabled in that area, it is fairly specific wehere you can get it.
I can see my tower, and i only get 1bar H indoors.
I'm quite confused by this thread.
I've always assumed that HSPDA was a lesser connection compared to 3G as I never get a 3G signal where I live, I get a good level of HSPDA in most areas of the town but general gprs signal quality is poor.........
Even started get H reception at home recently and my house is behind two ruddy great hills......
I always just assumed HSPDA was somewhere in between gprs and 3G because my coverage was normally so piss poor.......
conantroutman said:
I'm quite confused by this thread.
I've always assumed that HSPDA was a lesser connection compared to 3G as I never get a 3G signal where I live, I get a good level of HSPDA in most areas of the town but general gprs signal quality is poor.........
Even started get H reception at home recently and my house is behind two ruddy great hills......
I always just assumed HSPDA was somewhere in between gprs and 3G because my coverage was normally so piss poor.......
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Speed_Downlink_Packet_Access
ahhh ok, now I see, it was always 3.5g on my N95, not HSDPA. Thats where the confusions come from........ thankyou.
so getting H is better or worse then 3g? for my experience is that when i get H it works less fast then with 3g =[
and btw what does 3g+ mean?
H is meant to have better speeds, but due to crowded systems and poor support for the standard in mobile towers it seems to be quite slow here in the uk in some areas.
lunaticz0r said:
so getting H is better or worse then 3g? for my experience is that when i get H it works less fast then with 3g =[
and btw what does 3g+ mean?
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Click to collapse
better than 3g, and not as good as 4g
Still uses 3g ('3'rd 'g'eneration) technology, but faster than '3g'
a full bars 3g signal will be faster than 1 or 2 bar H signal. Thats why your phone swaps.
Basically, most of our phones will probably display a 3G icon or a H icon on the taskbar. 3G speeds are considerably faster than 2G, Edge, GPRS etc. However, 3.5G speeds are even much faster than 3G speeds. 3.5G is the same as HSDPA/HSUPA, reaching speeds of up to "7.2mps", although i've read somewhere that speeds of up to 14.2 mbps are possible (never tried it though lol)
So I just recently took a trip from northern California to Tennessee and had some interesting results with the Froyo radio. For reference I own the ATT-version Nexus One and have data roaming enabled.
When I used the phone before Froyo radio I had many problems with the 3G switching to Edge and back when needed which caused random data dropouts. Even turning the phone off and back wouldn't force the phone to switch connections to Edge when needed which would make me very frustrated in times of need.
On my trip I found something very interesting, not only did 3G and Edge switch almost perfectly, but Edge performed MUCH faster than before. While it isn't as important now in a world of 3G coverage, when I was on the "edge" of civilization I still got surfing speeds that were not far behind that of 3G speeds. My browsing, and most importantly Google Maps usage rarely suffered a performance hit despite where I was or what type of connection was available to my phone.
There was a difference between performance; 3G would act like Comcast and Edge would be a little behind, but in terms of actually surfing the Internet the extra 2-5 seconds it took to load up a desktop webpage didn't make a difference.
Technically the bandwidth speeds were much different. 3G performed from 1 to a max of 2 megabits down and .3-1 megabits up, while Edge showed speeds of 300-500 kbps down and 100-200 up.
One thing I did notice throughout the trip is the Nexus One's signal meter did not report correctly, there were times where it showed no signal and I had super fast connection, and also times when it would show full or near-full bars and there was no connection.
Hope someone finds this info useful!!! I'm very happy with the coverage my Nexus One gets with the Froyo radio now!
I have always found that my nexus holds calls and has fast data showing zero bars. One reason I've always loved the nexus
Just a point of clarification, EDGE has a maximum theoretical bandwidth of 473.6 kbits/s for 8 timeslots.
In real world conditions EDGE should have throughput of 236.8kbit/s with 4 timeslots(which is what most carriers employ).
Dan
Wonder if there's and app/mod to replace the signal bar with the actual signal #s?
Hey Sellitus, what else did you find working/not working on that trip?
I am considering a longer drive (SF to NY) and want to know about battery life, apps that were really handy, and which weren't.
SiNJiN76 said:
Wonder if there's and app/mod to replace the signal bar with the actual signal #s?
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Click to collapse
hey that would be nice. just like how cyanogen puts the battery percentage, it would be nice to have the dBm level of signal overtop of the signal meter.
RogerPodacter said:
hey that would be nice. just like how cyanogen puts the battery percentage, it would be nice to have the dBm level of signal overtop of the signal meter.
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Click to collapse
The dBm and signal bar IMO opinion are rather pointless in regards to data. Having a very poor 3G signal will always be faster than a full GPRS signal.
Also, a signal meter in terms of DB would jump around quite a bit...
sprinkles said:
Hey Sellitus, what else did you find working/not working on that trip?
I am considering a longer drive (SF to NY) and want to know about battery life, apps that were really handy, and which weren't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well for ATT I hit data roaming quite a few times, and although it worked on edge pretty quickly during those times it would randomly drop when the R was showing randomly. I think what happened a lot on the trip is when I was out in the middle of nowhere bouncing between towers would cause random dropouts, but they were usually no more than a few seconds.
I don't remember which apps specifically though a few also did not like the trip, but most would hang and resume in a few seconds after data was reconnected even if the signal strength showed it was connected the entire time with signal. Sometimes Google Maps hung, though it was rare and I noticed it more because I used it near constantly on the trip.
If I were to give advice to anyone looking at a cross country trip, buy a map or get offline GPS maps to help. We bought a map and it proved valuable at times, though we rarely needed it.
I wonder if the "enable data while roaming" setting had anything to do with that. Maybe an internal bug.
torchedlh said:
Also, a signal meter in terms of DB would jump around quite a bit...
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Click to collapse
I don't know how a number jumping around would be any different than a graphical signal meter jumping around. The iPhone has had this hack for a long time where you can replace the signal meter with the dBm reading. Though I've never owned the iPhone, but seen it on friend's iPhone before.
I know I'm often going into the android settings to look at my dBm reading, didn't jump around too much for me to see.
I've been having some reception issue lately with AT&T around my hometown (usually its quite good),so I did some googling, and found plenty of info on radio signal, and how to interpret -dBm, but I'm still baffled by the ASU. I really couldn't find much, just some random post on a random forum that left me with some questions:
In a 3G network your cell phone tries to open three channels to three radios so they can locate you and hand you off properly.
Those three channels make up you ACTIVE SET.
ASU is ACTIVE SET UPDATES or the rate at which your phone is able to update its location to the towers/radios.
This rate is affected by signal strength, load, and probably a lot of other factors that I haven't puzzled out yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can anyone shed some more light on this? Usually at home I have 2 bars of HSDPA, somehwere in the -90s dBm, and anywhere from 4-8 asu.
I live in lakewood, CA and the coverage map of T-mo says my place is Excellent. However, the signal strength is -82dbm on a desk near window. Today, I was driving to Fullerton. Every time I stopped at a red light, i checked the signal strength and it was at most -78dbm.
I found some posts of nexus one owners saying the signal strength is around -57 to -70 dbm when not holding.
does G2 have a weak receiver or is it just mine?
I wish I had signal strength as good as yours. I've never seen mine go above -90dBm!
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
I think its gotta be yours. I live in sammamish (washington state) and at one time I got to -50. I probably average -75.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
I've gotten to -59 before and quickly decided to do a speed test. Using the speed test app, I get crazy numbers, I did a web based speed test and I got speeds (don't remember) but on a scale it said I was much faster than Sprints 4G network. Loving it.
What the... I'm at -89dBm with a full five bars. This is my second g2 and the first one was the same.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
Same.. -85 dbm full five bars.. -113 dbm at 1-2 bars.
From my very unscientific experiments
I fired up my G1 tonight and installed the Mobile Signal Widget (handy widget, free on the market).
G1:
Sitting on my desk or being held in my hand, the signal reads -99 on UMTS. Very solid reading.
G2:
Signal reads -91 to -93 on HSDPA, then occasionally 'drops' to UMTS. Signal tends to show around -93 to -99.
These readings fly out the door when I pick it up and hold it like I did the G1. Within seconds, the signal drops to -101, shows no signal, then drops to either EDGE, or at an extreme, down to GPRS then goes back to EDGE, usually leveling out from -95 to -101.
Putting it down almost instantly sees the signal strength go back up to -97 and reestablish the UMTS or HSDPA connection.
I don't have the internal pictures or design plans for the phone, but it almost seems like HTC did the Apple iPhone 4 antenna treatment to the Vision/G2 and is using the casing as part of the antenna.
EDIT: ...Or put it in a bad place. I noticed that the signal drops mainly when the lower left hand of the phone is held/covered. Holding it by just the sides and making sure the bottom of the phone (area that has the trackpad) is not covered or being touched causes a much smaller drop in signal. Holding it by the top corners results in next to no signal drop.
Allegedly, TMo is having nation wide issues with the HSDPA side of the network according to the report of someone in the TMo forums (claims to have been told this by a CS rep, so take it with a grain of salt).
So while I don't think the G2 has a worse receiver, it does appear to suffer from bad antenna placement, which can look like a bad receiver. This may or may not be an issue for someone as YMMV depending on usage patterns, bluetooth headset usage, and so on.
As for the main status bar indicator, don't be fooled. TMo tweaked the signal display to show only H, E and G. Install that widget and watch it, I bet your phone switches between HSDPA and UMTS a lot, and the main display never changes from H.
I call this a bit of weasel marketing. They make this big deal about the new network and speeds and their flagship phone supporting it, but configure it so that it only reports the HSDPA side of the network when it's connected at anything faster than EDGE. Makes me wish for a way to track over time just how much time it spends using the UMTS protocol vs HSDPA.
I hate to say it, but returning this phone is looking like a better idea more and more...
You're retarded. HSPDA is 3G.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
joebobjoe said:
You're retarded. HSPDA is 3G.
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Fine, if you want to split hairs, I've corrected my post to reflect the correct terminology (UMTS vs 3G).
It doesn't change the fact that the Froyo install has been modified
It doesn't change the fact that it's verifiable with the free utilities on the market
I can't think of a single reason that the '3G' indicator in the OS would be removed except to 'hide' the fact that the phone isn't always using the HDSPA protocol, which is being bandied about by TMo marketing as one of the reasons to buy a G2. I don't expect a phone to have a rock solid connection 100% of the time, it's next to impossible. But I also don't expect a device to have been modified in a way that is misleading and doesn't show the actual protocol the phone is using.
My post was to add my findings about the subject of the phone having a poorer receiver than earlier phones, such as the G1 and the N1, and along the way I found something I thought was interesting enough to add to the post. Pardon me for not being specific enough at 3 in the bleeding morning.
Next time, try responding without the personal attack or apparently not even trying to reproduce what I have found to see if I'm making things up, OK?
jdc said:
Fine, if you want to split hairs, I've corrected my post to reflect the correct terminology (UMTS vs 3G).
It doesn't change the fact that the Froyo install has been modified
It doesn't change the fact that it's verifiable with the free utilities on the market
I can't think of a single reason that the '3G' indicator in the OS would be removed except to 'hide' the fact that the phone isn't always using the HDSPA protocol, which is being bandied about by TMo marketing as one of the reasons to buy a G2. I don't expect a phone to have a rock solid connection 100% of the time, it's next to impossible. But I also don't expect a device to have been modified in a way that is misleading and doesn't show the actual protocol the phone is using.
My post was to add my findings about the subject of the phone having a poorer receiver than earlier phones, such as the G1 and the N1, and along the way I found something I thought was interesting enough to add to the post. Pardon me for not being specific enough at 3 in the bleeding morning.
Next time, try responding without the personal attack or apparently not even trying to reproduce what I have found to see if I'm making things up, OK?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry.
joebobjoe said:
I'm sorry.
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Accepted, mentally listing this as water under the bridge and moving on.