Database Users

Wiki time...

Ok people. The Wiki hasn't been updated and we can't be too harsh on people looking for answers. Here is a beautiful tool that via collaboration will encompass a large part of the knowledge we all have.
Let's get together and get it updated. We don't want the Athena wiki, the wiki for the most expensive and versatile and powerful device, to look like crap or empty. Doesn't make members of the Athena group look too organized and I personally don't like that.
This said, we need to start moving forward. There is too much knowledge to not capture it in a central place and share it with others. We should get on this now.
I know we all have jobs and other obligations so it's best if we work in shifts. We're going to need to coordinate the effort and work with moderators, etc.
Once the Wiki is updated, we'll refer newbies there first, then ask them to learn to search then try to help if all else fails. We need to combine our efforts and strengths and stop looking like a bunch of unorganized chimps.
Who's in? What moderator will lead? We really need to tidy up our house people. It's a mess.
PS: I would like to get this all done before I get my HTC Shift people!

no?
So no one is interested in getting this going huh. Cool.
Don't complain then.

ltxda said:
So no one is interested in getting this going huh. Cool.
Don't complain then.
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After setting up the new ROM

ltxda said:
Ok people. The Wiki hasn't been updated and we can't be too harsh on people looking for answers. Here is a beautiful tool that via collaboration will encompass a large part of the knowledge we all have.
Let's get together and get it updated. We don't want the Athena wiki, the wiki for the most expensive and versatile and powerful device, to look like crap or empty. Doesn't make members of the Athena group look too organized and I personally don't like that.
This said, we need to start moving forward. There is too much knowledge to not capture it in a central place and share it with others. We should get on this now.
I know we all have jobs and other obligations so it's best if we work in shifts. We're going to need to coordinate the effort and work with moderators, etc.
Once the Wiki is updated, we'll refer newbies there first, then ask them to learn to search then try to help if all else fails. We need to combine our efforts and strengths and stop looking like a bunch of unorganized chimps.
Who's in? What moderator will lead? We really need to tidy up our house people. It's a mess.
PS: I would like to get this all done before I get my HTC Shift people!
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Sorry - been busy. I'm in. There must be others too?

OK, I spent some time updating the Q&A page. This could use some organization, but at least there is some usable information there.
We need to think about the questions that get asked again and again, and make sure they are added in, so we can then smugly tell them to read the Wiki and know their question will be answered if they take the time to read.

Why Are Threads Being Trashed?

I was looking for a couple of threads that I had recently bookmarked to go back to later on only to find that they weren't bookmarked anymore. I spent almost an hour searching for them only to find the one specific thread in the trash. No warning or reason was given. Why was this done? I can understand if it's a thread with only a single post or perhaps even one that has become outdated (like a Cupcake release date thread) but why a thread that has 4 pages of information for a topic that doesn't have any reference for it already? Isn't this going to just create more new threads? More e-mails? More questions? Isn't this defeating the purpose of posting a new thread about a topic that hasn't been posted or stickied, if it is just going to be deleted?
If you look in the trash you will find SEVERAL Dream threads. In fact... just on the first page HALF (TEN out of TWENTY) are from the Dream thread! So just to clearify... of the dozens of different threads for different phones half of all trash is for the G1??? Isn't the trash supposed to be for SPAM?
How are these spam (just from the first page)???
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=525564
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=524956
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=519591
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=525034
There are a few more of course but I can understand because most of the questions have been answerered and it would be faster and easier if these people used the search feature. But some haven't been. (example)
Instead of deleting the threads... merge them. But of course you get stuck with a 500+ page thread that MOST people will not read all the way through to see if the question they are about to ask has been asked/answered already. Which is of course why they post a new thread but guess what? It gets deleted and so another thread gets posted. It's never ending and I realize that this must be hard work for the mods.
So what to do?
I propose that instead of deleting these threads without reason or warning, to PM the original poster of the thread to ask of the significance of it and to provide a legitimate reason and purpose for it. Otherwise give warning or notice of the possible deletion. Of course this does not exempt the threads that are posting warez, copyright infringements and other obvious violations of memberships.
This is only my opinion and I hope that I have made an interesting point or two about this matter.

Look at the Sticky "Tough Love Moderation Alert". Basically the admins will lock/delete threads they think duplicate or off topic. I can't say as I agree with their method (no explanation) but there is a need to keep the threads under control. The development forum is the worst of the problem area but all the Dream forums have some abusers.
On the other hand it is leading to silly thread titles "[ONLY] something [ONLY]" (which is silly since people who would have posted off topic before still will) and confusion as well as "What happened to my last post" threads. Time will tell if their methods achieve their goal.

JanetPanic said:
Look at the Sticky "Tough Love Moderation Alert". Basically the admins will lock/delete threads they think duplicate or off topic. I can't say as I agree with their method (no explanation) but there is a need to keep the threads under control. The development forum is the worst of the problem area but all the Dream forums have some abusers.
On the other hand it is leading to silly thread titles "[ONLY] something [ONLY]" (which is silly since people who would have posted off topic before still will) and confusion as well as "What happened to my last post" threads. Time will tell if their methods achieve their goal.
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Yeah... okay. I agree that some of the most annoying problems with the dream thread is that people do post in the ROM Development thread. But is deleting so much easier then moving to the "Dream" thread? If so, does it out weight the inconvenience of the possiblity of the same question being reposted because it was unable to be found by the search feature?
Say this post gets deleted... and it likely will be... and someone else notices the same issue... and they search to see if this has been posted. Will they find it? No. Because hardly anyone looks in the trash. So what do they do? They post it as a new thread. So what happens? A mod goes in and deletes that post. And it repeats over and over again until the mods stop deleting the posts. Then what? Nothing. The post stays and maybe even grows. Is it really a bother that a thread is over a month old and hasn't had any recent posts? Does it really bother anyone? Of course not! They just ignore it, right? So why go through all the trouble to delete it? Some of the threads in the trash are still useful and there is absolutely no harm in keeping it in the proper catagories (ie Dream, Applications, Themes, etc).
Any mod that simply deletes a useful and recently commented thread because it was mistakenly posted under the wrong catgory instead of simply moving it, is just lazy in my own personal opinion and is doing more harm then good. Again... just my opinion.

Binary100100 said:
Say this post gets deleted... and it likely will be... and someone else notices the same issue... and they search to see if this has been posted. Will they find it? No. Because hardly anyone looks in the trash. So what do they do? They post it as a new thread. So what happens? A mod goes in and deletes that post. And it repeats over and over again until the mods stop deleting the posts. Then what? Nothing. The post stays and maybe even grows.
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That doesn't indicate that what the mods are doing is necessarily wrong, it means that new members continue to disregard the rules (posting already answered questions, posting in wrong forum, etc).
That said, I think the mods need to reevaluate how and when they do thread merges. The form of discussion in forums like these tend to be "conversation" centric. However, the threads are presented in a flat format (by default). That means that merging two threads of identical or similar topics will cause their conversations to intermix, with disastrous results. People already have piss-poor reading skills as it is.

What do you expect the moderators to do? We didn't give them a choice. The Dream forums are out of control and it would take the 3 or 4 moderators for these forums 8 hours a day not being paid to police it. You want someone to blame? Blame your fellow XDA members because there are only 2 solutions for this problem:
Get more moderators to baby sit the forums or increase the quality of posting within the Dream forums. The later is what we need here and what the moderators are hoping for.
Edit: And honestly, I think this is the best method. Do we have the potential for losing good information? Yes. This is how you teach the multitudes of Dream posters that there are consequences for being ignorant. Being stupid is not an excuse.

It is pretty annoying how the Dream thread has exploded and that the same questions just keep on cropping up. When I reply I do try to either re-direct them to my signature (which has the basic links to Dude's ROM, SPL, Apps2SD, Radio etc), teach them how to search with the actual result or just point them to the right direction.
However with 500+ pages or whatever, it can become a chore for newbies to read though, even if 70% of the info is in the first page.
I did recommend to the mods that the Dream section needs cleaning up, with a dedicated sub forum purely for the established (or popular) cooked ROMs. So underneath the Dream Dev sub-forum is another just for JF, Dude, Cyanogen, Haykuro etc. That should remove quite a lot of traffic and usual questions then from what is supposed to be a general development thread for other matters.
Then I would suggest a much more organised and up to date FAQ in such a sub-forum which covers all of the same questions that get asked daily. Any such questions that get asked in any of the ROM forums would then be re-directed to the FAQ.
Most of us I'm sure have come from large forums (lik-sang, avsfoums, etc) and know how to search, read etc but many newer members don't, be it due to lack of effort etc. However I'm sure there are many genuine new members who are willing to learn that only need a nudge in the right direction. Simply blocking them off by trashing, linking them only to the search page etc isn't helpful and won't generate a positive community.
I would put myself forward to help moderate the Dream section but I know that zero mod positions are available at the moment, but I do agree with the OP that trashing isn't always the solution.

NeoBlade said:
linking them only to the search page etc isn't helpful and won't generate a positive community.
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The main problem is that for the veterans who have been here since Sept/Oct 2008, everything more or less makes sense because they have seen it evolve to its current state. It's a lot like a guy who lives in a very very messy room who can still find the book buried under a pile of empty ramen cups and dirty laundry. Thus its easy to say "use the search!" in response to any newbie query. That said, from the first-timer newbie perspective, there are a few problems: 1) A lot of information crammed into two poorly organized subforums. 2) A lot of information is outdated and is superseded or contradicts newer information. 3) Some of the sticky threads have very poorly written or maintained first posts.
Sticky threads are not a very good way to store information for general consumption, unless the original poster is a very good communicator and also vigilantly updates the first post with concise information from the entire thread, no matter how long it is. Of the former sticky posts, few actually meet that standard. The ideal format for information conveyance is wiki, but then there is the disconnection between the wiki and active development. In other words, people don't like to move back and forth between the wiki and the forum.

I know what you mean jashu, I love my "organised mess" at home ^_^
It does take effort alright in keeping threads on topic and up to date, I remember when administrating the TokyoToys forum (I since had to close it, joint decision by myself and the owner) and also organising events for fans and people alike to meet up and have fun, took effort and more often enough without any recognition as well which can get discouraging.
Certainly if the OP kept his or her first post updated often enough with information it will keep questions down to a minimum however I still approve of a well made FAQ which is stickied. It then becomes a focal point as any FAQ should. I'm actually in the middle of writing one myself and once its done and the people concerned are happy with it, I would be happy to post it here too.
Ideally a wiki would be best because its user editable however I had a look at the XDA wiki and it does need a bit of TLC.

I will qualify my statement in that I come from the standpoint as an administrator in a prominent Linux forum that gets more posts in an hour in than the Dream forums get in a day. I firmly believe that draconian administration is not the answer and makes the forum far less pleasant to use. I think of administration as keeping things civil and posts in the right forum more than controlling creation of threads. Forcing the organization into a few mammoth threads is not any better than letting users create new threads without rules.
The developers forum is a bit of a mess and completely left to its own it would be worse than it is. The Development forum is not really about development anymore though. It more of a "custom ROM" forum. It is rare that I see an actual post on development on the android platform. Since the primary topic on the forum is custom ROMs the support questions for said ROMs get put in the development forum and generates a mess. Creating a ROM forum would just shift the mess, so I am not sure that would be better.
I think eventually the newbies who are flooding the forum with threads that could be answered by searching will either go away or learn to search. The current choice of administration is not educating the newbies though, it is just forcing them to learn. Regardless of how any of us users feel about the subject though the administrators have made their choice on how to deal with the Dream sub-forums. We are just along for the ride.
The thought that scares me more than any other is that the flood of newbies up to this stage could be just the tip of the iceburg. XDA-Dev before the last year or so was a forum for a fairly small group of people who generally know how to deal with their own problems. Lately the number of users with limited technical ability and desire have been increasing. This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change. Linux forums have a reputation for rude users, this is largely due to the veterans being unforgiving to repeated questions. Harsh but it does work over time.

JanetPanic said:
The thought that scares me more than any other is that the flood of newbies up to this stage could be just the tip of the iceburg. XDA-Dev before the last year or so was a forum for a fairly small group of people who generally know how to deal with their own problems. Lately the number of users with limited technical ability and desire have been increasing. This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change.
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This and the fact that it's brand spanking new. Give it time and the kids will find something new to play with and move on while the people that give a rats arse (us) will be left behind. I've seen it time and time again on car forums. This isn't any different. The first 6 months is bliss. The following 1-2 years is absolute hell. Then comes the volume drop off and the true development. I've all for tough love but it's not like the tide is ever going to stop. We are just going to have to wait it out.

There's always methods in dealing with issues and I do agree that its more of a ROM section than Development thesedays... Hence in my opinion it would be better off having a ROM section for such people to post on, which will clear up for people actually developling or helping to improve the android platform - Most notibly the Bluetooth OBEX support.
This isn't the fastest forum I've seen or been involved in in terms of volumes of posts, however it is getting to the point where re-structuring and possibly more moderators are needed to help ease the burden. When a large number of people register and start being active, it is often the best time to set an example and indeed set and establish a community where people help people - Be it to simple things as pointing them to the right direction to much more techinical issues.
Without the ethos to help each other, where would open source be?
Granted I know nothing about Linux myself and couldn't code to save my life but I do enjoy the technical discussions that take place. A lot of this is lost with the usual questions that get asked, hence the need for a more up to date FAQ. Tough love is needed but I believe with the right organisation, it shouldn't have to be the only answer.

uberingram said:
This and the fact that it's brand spanking new. Give it time and the kids will find something new to play with and move on while the people that give a rats arse (us) will be left behind. I've seen it time and time again on car forums. This isn't any different. The first 6 months is bliss. The following 1-2 years is absolute hell. Then comes the volume drop off and the true development. I've all for tough love but it's not like the tide is ever going to stop. We are just going to have to wait it out.
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the G1 is the new sidekick. and the sidekick was such a fad and trend for kids to use as a phone. the hip hop and celebrity community did well in terms of marketing the sidekick to the mainstream public as being a "your not cool if you don't have one of these" items. also the emo/scene kids are all about what the "in" things and fads are, so that highly popularized the sidekick as well.
and now since the G1 came out, most of the people that got a sidekick for those particular reasons mentioned above, are now "upgrading" to the next newer cooler big thing.... the G1.
young people love to follow trends, fads, and what's cool at the moment.
right now, the G1 is just that.
it's a double edge for Android and the G1. the popularity is one of the key things needed to make Android and the G1 a success. but with popularity comes a lot riff raff and criticism that is not welcomed so well. but i digress lol
i just hope the sidekick comes out with a touchscreen version or something, so the kids have something new shiny to play with haha

Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK? I moved to the G1 after my Nokia N95. Got impatient waiting for the N97 so made the jump and thanks to the incomplete stock OS, I was tempted to move back to my N95 until JF released his research, Haykuro and Dude. Now it feels more complete with only a few things missing.
Back on topic though, the place isn't as bad as it could be but since this is more a development forum to begin with and not a social based one, just a few tweaks here and there would help newbies a little.

NeoBlade said:
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK? I moved to the G1 after my Nokia N95. Got impatient waiting for the N97 so made the jump and thanks to the incomplete stock OS, I was tempted to move back to my N95 until JF released his research, Haykuro and Dude. Now it feels more complete with only a few things missing.
Back on topic though, the place isn't as bad as it could be but since this is more a development forum to begin with and not a social based one, just a few tweaks here and there would help newbies a little.
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ohhh i have an idea...
like when you sign up you pick the phone and platform you use then instantly redirects the new member to a FAQ or pertinent threads associated to their liking of phone and platform and at the same time directly email them a link to those FAQ and whatnot.

NeoBlade said:
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK?.
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Yeah, it's just how mrcrs described it. The Sidekick became quite the fashion accessory model when celebrities started picking them up. They are pictured all over the tabloids and mentioned a lot of times in up-start musician's songs. I doubt very much that it would have panned out this way if T-Mobile released the SideKick 3G before the G1 but then again, T-Mobile needed a victory and a halo phone really fast.

That would take a fair amount of modification to the forum files to do (I've done my fair share of phpBB, phpBB Plus, IPB etc) and also is on the pretence that every single mobile has a suitable FAQ to begin with.
And easier way and modification to the forum could be to send a general stock welcoming PM along with a reminder to search and any additional helpful links within. That is, if XDA wants to go down that route.

NeoBlade said:
That would take a fair amount of modification to the forum files to do (I've done my fair share of phpBB, phpBB Plus, IPB etc) and also is on the pretence that every single mobile has a suitable FAQ to begin with.
And easier way and modification to the forum could be to send a general stock welcoming PM along with a reminder to search and any additional helpful links within. That is, if XDA wants to go down that route.
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whenever i join forums and in my inbox i get a message automatically, which is usually from the forum itself, i usually disregard it because all it is a "welcome to xyz forums... yada yada yada... enjoy your time here"
i usually don't open and read it, delete it then... go wreck havoc on finding out the information i want to know or read about. but that's just me

JanetPanic said:
This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change.
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To get a glimpse of where Dream/Magic forum is headed, just look at the xda Winmo forums. "Development" in this case basically just means rom customization. It's already pretty much at that state here too. Of course if Android fulfills its promise of being a mainstream smartphone OS, there will be many more newbies here than there ever were on the Winmo forums (you don't see many kids rocking Touch Diamonds).
Linux forums have a reputation for rude users, this is largely due to the veterans being unforgiving to repeated questions. Harsh but it does work over time.
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IMO there's nothing wrong with being a bit curt, especially in the "development" forum. This isn't an interactive tutorial, a hand-holding journey. Too many people seem to get the idea that the unsupported hacks enabled by rooting can be generalized and simplified for mass-market consumption. That kind of thinking is faulty and the resulting bad publicity may jeopardize the Android hacking community on the whole.
The problem is that in most cases, being rude only keeps away users who had initial reservations and cautions to rooting-- precisely the kind of user who actually might take the time to indepedently and/or responsibly learn how to do things properly.

jashsu said:
To get a glimpse of where Dream/Magic forum is headed, just look at the xda Winmo forums. "Development" in this case basically just means rom customization. It's already pretty much at that state here too. Of course if Android fulfills its promise of being a mainstream smartphone OS, there will be many more newbies here than there ever were on the Winmo forums (you don't see many kids rocking Touch Diamonds).
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I have been here since 2005 with the Blue Angel (then the Wizard, Jam, Magician, and the Artemis). Eventually XDA started dedicating a subforum to ROMs with the general development thread up top for WinMo development. The Dream right now just has the one combined forum. Another difference is that the ROM threads in Dream seem to grow faster than I remember on the WinMo threads. I am not sure what the difference is, maybe that usually there are a couple debug threads that die out which in the Dream forum is discouraged. Regardless the rapid posting makes it harder to keep up with more than one ROM.
jashsu said:
IMO there's nothing wrong with being a bit curt, especially in the "development" forum. This isn't an interactive tutorial, a hand-holding journey. Too many people seem to get the idea that the unsupported hacks enabled by rooting can be generalized and simplified for mass-market consumption. That kind of thinking is faulty and the resulting bad publicity may jeopardize the Android hacking community on the whole.
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I agree, well put.
jashsu said:
The problem is that in most cases, being rude only keeps away users who had initial reservations and cautions to rooting-- precisely the kind of user who actually might take the time to indepedently and/or responsibly learn how to do things properly.
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Good point as well.

A brief rant about some of the members here

Honestly I am starting to get sick at the attitude of some of the members of this forum. It takes more time to ***** than to just simply skip the post and go to the next one.
As the forum gets bigger (XDA today is huge!) you will have simply no way of avoiding these kinds of posts. Telling them to go search or being rude to anyone is NOT going to help.
This used to be strictly a developer forum but with all the press it's getting, the site has been growing a lot over the past few years, and by being an ass you're insulting the very people that are helping this site grow, and even those saying HUGE THANKS by donating money to you for your hard work. How rude is that?
C'mon, let's be more upbeat, forgiving and helpful towards our fellow members and let the actual moderators do their jobs.
/rant

It's 50/50 I just avoid reading something if I know I might get a littlke snarky about it and I agree with some of what you're saying. It had someone today that made a thread asking for something that was literally 3 threads down from his post. I found that rather annoying. But still pointed him in the right direction. NOT everyone is as patient as some of the members here. Just saying.

Kshawn said:
It's 50/50 I just avoid reading something if I know I might get a littlke snarky about it and I agree with some of what you're saying. It had someone today that made a thread asking for something that was literally 3 threads down from his post. I found that rather annoying. But still pointed him in the right direction. NOT everyone is as patient as some of the members here. Just saying.
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I don't mind when people flame them for not searching...as long as they then answer the question (like you). Because it is so annoying down the road when you are searching an issue...and a thread comes up with your exact problem...and the only replies are telling the person to go search..when that's what you're doing!

There comes a time when people get to the breaking point with lazy people not wanting to search. In those instances it is absolutely infuriating, particularly with someone posting like was done earlier where the answer to his question was literally on the same page... Not only that, it was in the dev forum to boot.
I'm sorry but it doesn't do the community any good to have people come join who contribute nothing to the forum but enrage everyone who has to tell them to UTFSE...

EtherealRemnant said:
There comes a time when people get to the breaking point with lazy people not wanting to search. In those instances it is absolutely infuriating, particularly with someone posting like was done earlier where the answer to his question was literally on the same page... Not only that, it was in the dev forum to boot.
I'm sorry but it doesn't do the community any good to have people come join who contribute nothing to the forum but enrage everyone who has to tell them to UTFSE...
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^^^^^
This.
We are a development forum, this isn't the place to get hand held and walked through the same idiots guide 30 times with pictures and line by line instructions. I have no problems helping people that want to help themselves. Seeing, "Why can't i flash this" when they aren't even rooted, have nand locked and never bothered to even check the stickies angers me to no end.
We were all noobs once and we learned really quickly to search, read and then read some more. When you think you know what you have to do then you should read some more. Then try.
Many here flash development kernels and then we end up with 15 pages of 55 fps OMG. Camera is broke! Can we fix it? OMG I have an epson with screen tearing I'm going to return this pos! Nova panel no fix? Dude I'm returning it for an epson!
Don't even get me started on the cross device posts and people threatening to return their device. Return the damn thing. I don't need you to justify my decisions. I also don't equate my penis size with my phone so; grats the Iphone records 720p awesome if that is what you need then by all means help yourself. No need to post. No need to post "I love my EVO" Threads in some lame attempt to counter act the negativity of another device doing something better than yours. Take that stuff to one of the other laid back forums where people aren't actively trying to fix problems.

Grims said:
I don't mind when people flame them for not searching...as long as they then answer the question (like you). Because it is so annoying down the road when you are searching an issue...and a thread comes up with your exact problem...and the only replies are telling the person to go search..when that's what you're doing!
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Why should I waste my time digging the link up for them? Then they are just going to expect it EVERY time and we will keep getting the same posts from the same people who are too lazy to take the time and search and read.

Tough call, I am relatively new here but I help a lot at other forums and this stuff happens everywhere. Some days I bite my lip and some days I am a smart ass.
I definately agree that if you decide to reply you should say something useful so to not populate everyone elses search results with useless info. Of course the bad part about ignoring a noob's post is that they will then keep bumping it themselves until someone tells them to go search....so you can't win!

The other day when I posted at another forum that progress was being made on nova panels and the 30fps cap I flat out told them I wasn't going to post the link because the developers needed the thread to work. I of course credited xda just didn't give them the thread.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

EtherealRemnant said:
I'm sorry but it doesn't do the community any good to have people come join who contribute nothing to the forum but enrage everyone who has to tell them to UTFSE...
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Actually, by telling them to just search and not answer their question, we will ultimately HURT those who are actually UTFSE....Google. By responding to them you are BUMPING the thread. Either let it die, let a moderator take care of it or simply tell them to search, but point them to right direction kindly and with respect.

It's pretty apparent that UTFSE is a common issue and maybe you can modify behavior through the forum itself? I don't see why the forum can't search out the keywords being used, sentences and such and force the user to "review" previous postings prior to making a new one? It could even go as far as to have them review and check off certain starred postings "before" making a new one. I have been blasted on other forums for not searching and thus I learned my lesson very quickly. Since it is such a common issue on many different boards, I would think someone could come up with a solution.
My .02-

I don't know how much I agree with the OP. I have been using these forums for maybe a year or two at this point and for the most part the balance seems to be 80% helpful 20% trolls. I figure that everywhere, in any forum there are always going to be trolls but on the whole XDA has ALWAYS been helpful. Maybe I'm just lucky and havent had to deal with too many trolls but either way, while I agree with the OP, not sure how large scale of a problem this really is.

I think one of the biggest problems is search itself. I can find my way around ok, but even searching can take an inordinate amount of time.
People tend to take the path of least resistance, so if they have two choices: search or ask, they'll take the option that requires the least effort--they'll ask. So even though they get *****ed at about searching, they'll still just ask because they're likely to get an answer in a few minutes without having to do any work.
I believe the answer, and what would help this community the most, is to consolidate the most requested information in a SINGLE SIMPLE place. I've checked out the wikis, but to be honest, things move so fast here, even the wikis get out of date quickly.
Consider some of the most asked newb questions:
"How do I flash this"
"I can't get adb to work"
"When will it be out"
"My battery sucks, what do I do"
Most of this information is readily accessible with a search, but the advice is varied as much as the individual results. For those of us who understand what we're reading and who can filter the wheat from the chaff, tinkering is great fun. For others, they just want expert and reliable information that works.
How do we put that together?
For example, I've seen advice such as: "To save your battery, remove the people widget." I get four hours of battery @ 100% with the people widget, so am I lucky? Is that bad advice? At best, it appears anecdotal. What we owe the community, and the newb offenders that generated this topic is fact based, concise advise that is easy to read, easy to obtain, and easy to download.
I also think XDA should start adding moderators commensurate with its growth. Moderators should DELETE DELETE DELETE posts that burn time and energy when this information is readily available. XDA is nothing but a big ass database of information, and like any other database: Garbage in, Garbage out. We need to keep the forums clean with relevant information.
I agree with the OPs original aims: We should be gracious to newcomers and help people out. I'm sick and tired of reading snarky "go search you dumbass" posts, but I also agree, it does get REAL OLD seeing the same old "I flashed this and now I'm bootlooping, OMG, someone help me now"
One last point and I'll shut-up: The devs spend WAY TOO MUCH time doing bull**** troubleshooting. If we all stepped up and took care of the basic PD for their work, they'd be free to keep doing what we really want them doing and that's improving their ROMS, Apps, Themes etc. So while we work on figuring out how to manage information, you can best help out by answering every question you can so your friendly dev can keep coding.
Apologize for the rant...

What a waste of thread space on XDA.
Why enable dependence in people? They either learn it the right way, and learn to read on their own, or they should just leave and never come back. Once you've been here a while and see the baffling amount of stupidity and laziness that is exhibited by people who just "expect" everything to be served to them, I couldn't give a flying f**k if I'm nice to them or not.
On the other hand, if it's obvious that the person has done his own homework and is still unable to reach some sort of consensus on the matter, or is just trying to get affirmation on what he's about to do with his phone, then by all means for helping the person and making sure he doesn't end up with an electronic-has-been-brick.
XDA is not a handheld daycare center. I'd rather XDA grow slowly with people that are actually worth having, than having XDA grow like mushrooms overnight but filled with spoiled, self-justifying narcissists on what they deem should be their right when it comes to simple forum etiquette and common sense.

PoisonWolf said:
What a waste of thread space on XDA.
Why enable dependence in people? They either learn it the right way, and learn to read on their own, or they should just leave and never come back. Once you've been here a while and see the baffling amount of stupidity and laziness that is exhibited by people who just "expect" everything to be served to them, I couldn't give a flying f**k if I'm nice to them or not.
On the other hand, if it's obvious that the person has done his own homework and is still unable to reach some sort of consensus on the matter, or is just trying to get affirmation on what he's about to do with his phone, then by all means for helping the person and making sure he doesn't end up with an electronic-has-been-brick.
XDA is not a handheld daycare center. I'd rather XDA grow slowly with people that are actually worth having, than having XDA grow like mushrooms overnight but filled with spoiled, self-justifying narcissists on what they deem should be their right when it comes to simple forum etiquette and common sense.
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Gotta agree 100%.
Give a man a fish (or thread link) and you feed him for a day... Teach him to fish (or search) and you feed him for a lifetime.

PoisonWolf said:
What a waste of thread space on XDA.
Why enable dependence in people? They either learn it the right way, and learn to read on their own, or they should just leave and never come back. Once you've been here a while and see the baffling amount of stupidity and laziness that is exhibited by people who just "expect" everything to be served to them, I couldn't give a flying f**k if I'm nice to them or not.
On the other hand, if it's obvious that the person has done his own homework and is still unable to reach some sort of consensus on the matter, or is just trying to get affirmation on what he's about to do with his phone, then by all means for helping the person and making sure he doesn't end up with an electronic-has-been-brick.
XDA is not a handheld daycare center. I'd rather XDA grow slowly with people that are actually worth having, than having XDA grow like mushrooms overnight but filled with spoiled, self-justifying narcissists on what they deem should be their right when it comes to simple forum etiquette and common sense.
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Finally! I couldn't agree more.

I will have to say that I think XDA desperately needs a wiki-post forum feature like the ones on slickdeals.net or fatwallet.
Would save a ton of time on these massive threads with posts that might have outdated info.

jmxp69 said:
I think one of the biggest problems is search itself. I can find my way around ok, but even searching can take an inordinate amount of time.
Most of this information is readily accessible with a search, but the advice is varied as much as the individual results. For those of us who understand what we're reading and who can filter the wheat from the chaff, tinkering is great fun. For others, they just want expert and reliable information that works.
How do we put that together?
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I couldn't disagree with this more. XDA is not an end user support forum, it is a forum for exploring new development techniques and ways to hack devices. The main purpose of XDA, in my opinion, is NOT to provide sweet consice fully working solutions. The purpose is to share information that leads up to finding complete solutions.
If new users want to find easy answers then they should use another forum, such as AndroidForums, which do a pretty good job of only linking back to XDA if it is a complete solution. If users want to use XDA then they need to deal with SEARCHING through the developmental process.

While the constant occurrence of people refusing to search on their own is annoying, I find the flat out disgust for anything not Android (or w/e forum you're in) to be painfully immature. It happens everywhere but there are too many posts on here that sound like a 12 year old "dissing" some other kid in school (iPhone the majority of the time).

06ms6 said:
I find the flat out disgust for anything not Android (or w/e forum you're in) to be painfully immature. It happens everywhere but there are too many posts on here that sound like a 12 year old "dissing" some other kid in school (iPhone the majority of the time).
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Depends on how it is done. Personally I enjoy the friendly banter between IPhone an Android.
And it is interesting to compare issues between devices.

ramiss said:
Depends on how it is done. Personally I enjoy the friendly banter between IPhone an Android.
And it is interesting to compare issues between devices.
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Comparing is good. Some people have used the same phone for a year or two and are just now experiencing a new handset or even a new operating system.
It is when the whole one-sided "fanboy" bickering happens...that the thread goes to sh-t

Suggestions for cleaning up and moderating the Forums

1. A FAQ listed on each section. I know we have Wiki, but its usually outdated and hard to navigate. There really is no need for gigantic lists, but simple things like how to root, use odin, use clockwork, install roms/themes, etc... can be put there along with a warning on asking questions which have already been posted on the FAQ.
2. More Mods! I think just one or two more mods can help the forums a lot and clean things up.
3. Warnings for people who post questions that have already been answered on the front page of a thread or faq followed by a temp ban if they continue.
I'm really tired of the cycle of
- Dumb question posted
- Followed by "read the damn thread or use the damn search button"
- Followed by "Hey you were a noob once and theres no harm in answering the question you ass along with lengthy answer on the question that will inevitable be asked 10 more times in the near future"
- Continue flame war that now has nothing to do with the thread anymore
You enable people by holding their hands. Don't be an enabler. If you managed to find out how to do all this crap on your own, they can too. At most you should point them to the right thread and let them read up on it on their own so they can further their own education.
4. Don't PM the Devs for requests. They have enough work on their hands and don't need to be flooded. Remember the rule of think before you speak? Try thinking before you PM.
Anyhoo, there was a bunch more, but I'm sure you guys/gals have other ideas.

riceknight said:
1. A FAQ listed on each section. I know we have Wiki, but its usually outdated and hard to navigate. There really is no need for gigantic lists, but simple things like how to root, use odin, use clockwork, install roms/themes, etc... can be put there along with a warning on asking questions which have already been posted on the FAQ.
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I don't understand why the "[How To] Return to Stock / Fix Bricked Epic" thread is not sticked.
If someone posts they bricked their phone and needs help you post the link to that thread and lock it.

I like the sentiment of this thread but fear it might be taken the wrong way. Whosdaman is really a wonderful guy and has been very helpful to me but it seems like he is very busy (and who can blame him for dealing with things outside of the interwebs?) so I support this I would also like to issue a blanket "Thank you for your hard work" to Whosdaman.

Seeing as this is a collection of developers I don't see why we don't customize the forum itself.
I don't see any reason we can't flag the development and Q/A threads for every phone. Then, if "is this a question" is set to yes, automatically put it in that phone's Q/A forum. On top of which we could add a "You are posting in the development forum, this is reserved for people developing for [insert phone]. Please check the box below to confirm that you are developing something you wish to share." anytime people posted in the development forum.
Obviously people can still screw it up, if nothing else on purpose, but we can expect people who have never been on the forums to know how the forums are laid out, usually by reading the rules, which never happens, to sort their own, or we can make it as self sorting as possible.

Sounds like whosedaman just needs some support. Perhaps another mod added to help out. We all have to keep in mind that these guys don't get paid for this and real life always trumps forums life. Just my thought on this.
Sent from my Epic while i should be working

I was wondering why there was so much confusion in this forum, as I really liked the forums I used for the month I had a Moment before the Epic dropped. Was there ever a forum on here for the moment??? I couldnt find one, so I checked sdx, which I remember lurking back then and found my answer. Why can't Xda have 'child forums', with descriptions of where and why to post things?? They have a 'market' forum section for ROMs, etc, which we here are using development exclusively. I understand why, but it seems its this way here because of limited tools for organizing, can this sites software not do that? It is completely logical and intuitive to post questions directly regarding development or roms in the development section if you are new... I would have expected a sub-forum for roms only, or at least some direction other than after the fact... usually unless its horribly out of order, whosdaman is pretty polite about it, and given the feelings regarding this device, things get silly in here. Anyways, yes, at least sticky all roms and things 'coolguy' or whatever dont warrant flaming, and then politely notify the new people that questions regarding development actually get booted over to general, where intuitively people would assume GENERAL questions like 'do you like gmail or the stock app better?'.
More mods? Better structure? Who has control over this? Are there any experienced volunteers that can help whosdaman out with his daunting task?
We need to expect more 'joined in Dec 2010' and later members as every idiot with a blog and engadget included seem to think this site and forum are the authority, even over Sprint and Samsung (if XDA says 2.2 is dropping, it must be true, head over there and complain about it). NOTHING against new members, just that there is little direction other than the 'rules' that most people think are just 'dont flame, no kiddie porn... etc...' Dont get all elitist because people couldnt figure out your simple, non-intuitive structure because its their first 5 mins here.
Love this forum, but its like people are baited into getting flamed by assuming this forum runs like most any other... I thought I saw the end of this when I refused to go to another BBC chat... guess not.
If you feel that you must deputize yourself, please, copy the link to the wiki, rules, etc and paste them in misplaced, repeat threads and leave it at that.

since this is a fluff post, BigJim, whats the 1488 stand for??? Just curious...

ungovernable1977 said:
since this is a fluff post, BigJim, whats the 1488 stand for??? Just curious...
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Pardon? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'a fluff post'. I sincerely hope Whosdaman reads this thread and takes into account that there are some of us who would genuinely like to help him make our forums a more manageable place to browse and share ideas/roms/themes/etc. I am in no way asking for myself to be made a mod but rather I believe there are people here who would make good mods and I hope that WDM sees that we support him and want to help him make our community more accessible!

I'm willing to be a mod here I have experience and would know and how to handle things here...
Admins or mods pm me
sent from my Epic 4G

riceknight said:
1. A FAQ listed on each section. I know we have Wiki, but its usually outdated and hard to navigate. There really is no need for gigantic lists, but simple things like how to root, use odin, use clockwork, install roms/themes, etc... can be put there along with a warning on asking questions which have already been posted on the FAQ.
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Did you do a search before posting this? There's already a thread on it, learn how to use the search.
Ok, that was my attempt at humor

ungovernable1977 said:
since this is a fluff post, BigJim, whats the 1488 stand for??? Just curious...
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I don't think this is fluff at all and whosdaman does deserve to be thanked for his, well, thankless work.
1488 is a race thing. They usually won't tell you what the ideology of it is in public. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words
Although I don't agree with the sentiment of the belief structure, I support their right to peacefully observe their beliefs.

Yeah I know that meaning its generally a tattooed target, was just hoping it was just some retarded interweb speak. Sorry to hear. Almost forgot what it was though... not many Boneheads around here, not anymore.
BTW, I respect Lady Gaga's work, although I dont like it, therefore I see no reason to put it in my username.... its ok, you have a right to be a Nazi in this country...

Regrettably, I do read almost every thread in this forum, and forums I maintain...
<--------- Look here, I have 8 forums to maintain full time, but 6 are dead lol
Yeah I do have a life outside this for sure. Not only am I a senior in High School, I am on the Mock Trial team, the Robotics Team, a Sales Representative for Sprint, and a Writer for BriefMobile.com
So yeah I would say I'm busy, but I look over the entire forum as much as I can. Shep211 has been extremely busy in his personal life, that's why I started helping.
It is a thankless job, it's a volunteer job. All free, I don't get paid. The only thanks comes from the owner of the site when I say "if you fix this the site will be better."
Besides all that I can single handedly control this entire forum. I know it sometimes looks cluttered and in a mess, but then again...the Development section is spotless, which is truely the only thing that matters. The General section is meant to be a mess because it's where everyone posts their questions and complaints.
There are applications to become a moderator here on XDA, you have to meet certain requirements to be considered and then be approved. No one of this forum knows my experience as a moderator unless you used GameBattles.com for PS3.
If you want to help me out the most, please please please, use the "Report Post" feature. Every reported post goes straight to my inbox, and I see every single one. Normally RP's get extra attention as they obviously have bothered someone enough to have it reported. 90% of the RP's are either Ghost or Kenvan.
The search feature would do alot of people good, it's nice to tell people to do something, but Report the post/thread and I'll take care of it. You clutter up the forum and threads by posting in threads saying to post in General, just report it. That's all.
Sure, I wish everyone searched because there are at least 5 can't root threads. I would rather merge them all but it too much work to find them. Like I said, let the noobs make their mistake. The members report the post, don't tell them they were wrong. I'll move it, shoot them a PM, and then post in their thread telling them where they should have posted. Then hopefully they will learn.
Thanks again,
WDM

kenvan19 said:
Pardon? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'a fluff post'. I sincerely hope Whosdaman reads this thread and takes into account that there are some of us who would genuinely like to help him make our forums a more manageable place to browse and share ideas/roms/themes/etc. I am in no way asking for myself to be made a mod but rather I believe there are people here who would make good mods and I hope that WDM sees that we support him and want to help him make our community more accessible!
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Sorry, fluff may have been a wrong choice of words, I was implying that as this has been talked about before, and ignored by the powers that be, I saw it was going to end up an off topic post eventually, or at least until the elitist post Nazis (no offense bigjim) came in and said how we are cluttering their precious first page of posts, because as most have trouble with the AMAZING search function, a lot here have a lot of trouble with 'next page', you dont even have to pick which page, it takes you right to the next one!
Sorry, this is just getting really retarded around here, oh and BigJim,apologies, last comment on your beliefs, if off topic, but being an anarcho-punk, its hard not to at least ask if that is REALLY what you are talking about.

hehe *blush* I've tried to resort to reporting posts lately as opposed to trying to deal with problems on my own. Hope its not too much of a burden.

THANK YOU whosdaman! that is a very simple way to deal with the clutter issue... didnt even realise what the report button was till i looked around for it. I agree that not replying, positive or negative is good, if its easier for you to redirect them (you could probably easily make a form letter, just sub in 'froyo', 'GPS', or 'search' and the rest is pretty much the same!)
So what of the ability to make sub forums??? to be able to have a section under Dev that is for general DEV RELATED questions would be cool... most people assume that General is for stock, non rooted phone discussion, and Development is for anything to do with development. I think I remember one called 'all things root'?? Idunno, but you get the idea. So what is the plausability of this?? not possible with site software? Too much work??? Just curious, I have asked in similar threads and I think you were too busy with other stuff... I tend to avoid PM especially if it is something someone else may be able to answer, as we all know, mods are busy, especially in this forum. Thanks for all your hard work!

I certainly appreciate all the hard work Whosdaman has been doing with these forums, but unless he enjoys handling all this, wouldn't an extra mod or two be helpful?
My biggest thing is the FAQ post. Someone asks questions, you can point and say you should have read that first. Like I said before, the Wiki is great, but its a little cluttered and outdated as well as being hard to edit. Having one person willing to just moderate that one thread would be so helpful.
It bugs me when the whole community seems to be represented by the lazy people who just spam post. There are plenty of helpful, polite and very well informed that get lost among the clutter. In fact, they probably outnumber the newbies but don't feel the need to post nonsense. For every idiot that asks a dumb question, there are probably 10 that actually do research and figure it out for themselves.

kenvan19 said:
hehe *blush* I've tried to resort to reporting posts lately as opposed to trying to deal with problems on my own. Hope its not too much of a burden.
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Nope, I love you and ghost for reporting post. I always look forward to waking up and seeing 10 new PMs lol
ungovernable1977 said:
THANK YOU whosdaman! that is a very simple way to deal with the clutter issue... didnt even realise what the report button was till i looked around for it. I agree that not replying, positive or negative is good, if its easier for you to redirect them (you could probably easily make a form letter, just sub in 'froyo', 'GPS', or 'search' and the rest is pretty much the same!)
So what of the ability to make sub forums??? to be able to have a section under Dev that is for general DEV RELATED questions would be cool... most people assume that General is for stock, non rooted phone discussion, and Development is for anything to do with development. I think I remember one called 'all things root'?? Idunno, but you get the idea. So what is the plausability of this?? not possible with site software? Too much work??? Just curious, I have asked in similar threads and I think you were too busy with other stuff... I tend to avoid PM especially if it is something someone else may be able to answer, as we all know, mods are busy, especially in this forum. Thanks for all your hard work!
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I have no control over sub-forums. And right now it is only me working on the entire Epic forum. Like I said shep211 is gone atm.
svetius is in charge of the entire site, and I've talked to him about improvements that can be made. I wouldn't bother him too much or he'll just ignore ya. Most of the time the only things he is interested is fixing errors with the site itself. Right now I don't think we are in the area of reorganizing the entire site.

ok, so adding a subforum is not possible? Or is it a decision to make the structure uniform across the whole site? Just thinking, because this forum is like maximum security, different from the rest... or so it would seem...

I'm not so sure making more areas, and thus more chances to be wrong, is a good way to combat posting in the wrong area.
If you have a rom question, ask it in the rom thread. All that would happen if there were subforums for things in development, and discussion of things in development is we'd have 37 threads about how "I just discovered ___ doesn't work in [rom]" instead of 50 posts about it in the rom thread.
(Not to mention you'd then be blurring the line of when it is or isn't ok to post in the DEV forum, where as now, if the person bothers to read, there's a pretty clear cut "If you aren't about to post about the thing you just developed, GTFO" rule.)

Search reminder

While I understand that search in the xda app(s) can be an exercise in frustration, there are a lot of questions being asked that a Google search would easily answer. And there is a syntax that will search only XDA of that is what you want and it works really well.

ezas said:
While I understand that search in the xda app(s) can be an exercise in frustration, there are a lot of questions being asked that a Google search would easily answer. And there is a syntax that will search only XDA of that is what you want and it works really well.
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Lets remember, that there are a lot of new people, and people less technically savvy than you and I that come here.

kprice8 said:
Lets remember, that there are a lot of new people, and people less technically savvy than you and I that come here.
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I would argue that being tech savvy shouldn't have a huge impact on something as simple as searching. And if they are truly that unsavvy, they probably shouldn't be at a developers site and messing with things that can complete ruin their phone.

jcollier said:
I would argue that being tech savvy shouldn't have a huge impact on something as simple as searching. And if they are truly that unsavvy, they probably shouldn't be at a developers site and messing with things that can complete ruin their phone.
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Perhaps they come here to learn/educate and become more of said tech savvy person.

You think this will help?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+use+Google

kprice8 said:
Lets remember, that there are a lot of new people, and people less technically savvy than you and I that come here.
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kprice8 said:
Perhaps they come here to learn/educate and become more of said tech savvy person.
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I was new once, as we all were. Do you know what I did when I was new? I read, and read, and read, and read. And when I thought I had read enough, I read some more. I believe I was a member here for a couple of months before I even made my first post because I understood the nature of this site. It's called XDA-Developers because it was started by developers, for developers. It has evolved a bit since then, but it still may not be the best place for new people to learn the basics of rooting and forum etiquette. There are other sites that serve that purpose. Once a person has gained experience at those other sites, and learned how to navigate through and search a forum for answers, they will probably find the waters much easier to tread at XDA. I too have seen the examples of people repeating questions recently asked and answered in a thread. I even saw one example where a person asked a question when the answer was literally two posts up on the same page. I know not everyone has time to read everything, but reading the OP and last say 5 pages of a thread shouldn't be too much to ask.
A related iteration of this, which I feel is worse is the request for links, especially links to info found in the same subforum (ie: user A asks a question in the S5 Q&A section, user B responds saying the answer can be found in the sticky roll up thread found at the top of the S5 Android Development section, user A responds back, "link please?") Is it really too much effort for user A to navigate over to the development section, or does user A not even know how the forum is structured because they have only ever been spoon fed links? It's like the proverb, "give a man a fish you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime." If new people are coming here to learn/educate themselves, they should probably start by learning how the forums are organized, how to navigate around the forums, and where/how the information is organized and grouped. Constantly handing someone links teaches them none of that. A lot of people here spend a lot of time helping people and answering questions. But if people are not willing to help themselves and put the effort forth to learn things, then that is pretty much on them.
I know this is rather long, sorry about that. I just had a lot on my mind as relates to this topic. This isn't meant to be mean to or discourage new people or anyone from asking questions. People should ask questions, but doesn't the learning/information gathering process involve looking for the answers yourself before seeking help?
Just my long-winded thoughts on this.

Tldr

My personal rule is 5+5. The first 5 pages (since the most basic questions will be asked there) and the last 5 pages of any thread before thinking of posting. Depending on what I read in the last 5 pages I will go back 5 more. If a thread is only a few 10s of pages long, like 30 or 40, I will catchup on the thread.
While XDA has become an end-user destination, I think it should remain a place for learning. And not just jump straight to how-do-I
There are good forums for people who want more 'personal' attention. Searching/Reading should not be an unreasonable expectation in a forum where some where some strongly condemn the use of toolkits, and/or not learning to use ADB. I don't necessarily agree, but I think the spirit of that should be maintained. For instance try to solve a problem. Then come for help when it doesn't work. This way you can better report the problem, no one has to walk you through the steps of how to try it again, etc.