Database Users

New Programmer (Maybe)

Hi to all,
i'm new in xda\xda2 world...and i would like to develop under it? What i need for developing? What cpu type\model it have?

Well.. The About and Device Information screens in the System Settings menu should take care of your questions..
But if you're lazy, the XDA typically runs PocketPC 2002 on a StrongArm CPU, and the XDA II PocketPC 2003 (Windows Mobile Edition) on an Intel XScale (which is backwards compatible with ARM).
If you simply visit www.pocketpc.com and click on developers you'll end up at http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/information/devprograms/default.mspx
Where you can even order a free DVD-Rom with the PocketPC SDKs, compilers etc (they will charge shipping and handling, at a freakishly high rate). You can also download that stuff.
However, you will need Visual Studio .NET as well, which is not a free download (in fact, even the academic version will set you back more than EUR 100).
I've not ventured into it myself yet, so it's quite possible you can actually do without Visual Studio (as the compilers themselves can be downloaded). Also, there's a version of gcc for pocketpc.
Any one developing for pocketpc who wants to chip in here? (I'd like to toy around with programming a bit on PPC - regretably it doesn't have a built-in scripting language like epoc32 has/had).

You only need Visual Studio .NET if you want to create .NET applications. If you are just programming in C++, I'd highly recommend downloading Embedded Visual Studios 3 and 4 and get the appropriate SDKs (all of which are free). At least, that's what I use.

What about Java Midlets?
I am thinking on writing a couple of apps for PPC, but going into VS.NET might be too deep for me. I also want to extend those later for palm and maybe desktop. No hardware specific stuff so I thought I might get away with Java which I am pretty good at.
Does anyone have anything to say - pros / cons? How midlets are on O2 in general - fast / slow, too much memory or processing power? Please share.

Why don't you get down to c++? Fast, small, general support...
--------------
У нас сегодня день вежливости, так что вы просто идите за мной и никуда не сворачивайте!

Some day
Good old C++. Too many years with Java - softened my mind... Undoubtedly C++ is the best way to go in terms of speed and size. Lets see what people say. :idea:

I've been programming in Visual .NET (VB.NET more specifically), but even after installing the SDK I have no idea where to start? When creating a project, I don't see any new project type for Pocket PC applications ? In fact, what else do I need to do if I want to program in VB.NET ?

i read that visualstudio .net 2005 will be able to make pocketpc applications in all languages not just .net applications like 2003
not sure about how you get started with vb.net since vb is very evil and nasty
but with c++ mfc and c# .net you start out with a form and there you can place components on it and program what functions they have
but if you want to make games and stuff which dont use normal windows stuff then you are better off programming them in c++ directly for the arm platform

I use Embedded VC++ and MFC as it's far tighter/smaller than .net. Purists can go completely Win32(ce) native and avoid MFC altogether but MFC does make development a good deal easier without the bloat of .net (not to mention how slow it is..).

Same thing for me. C++ with EVC tools. No mfc for me (a little purist and feel it gives a clearer code )
Best way to have samller and optimize applications

I've been programming in Visual .NET (VB.NET more specifically), but even after installing the SDK I have no idea where to start? When creating a project, I don't see any new project type for Pocket PC applications ? In fact, what else do I need to do if I want to program in VB.NET ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you have VS.NET 2003 you don't even need the SDK.
just File-> New->Project
on the left column "Project Types" choose your language and on the right click the "Smart Device Application"
Basically is like any windows application but less possibilities and if you want to create any serious application you'll have to do a lot of optimization and native coding.
Good luck

Books?
I'm also interested in programming with Embedded VC++...and was wondering if anyone know of books out there I can pick up that will help my learning process a little quicker. Its been a long time since i coded in C++ and need to refresh.
The part I'm really need help is the basic parts ...like how to get things started.
I'm confident that once I get started i'll start to remember my C++ coding.
I'm downloading the Embedded VC++ from Microsoft as I type this post ...hope it wont be too hard to understand how to create a simple "hello world" program for PPC devices
Also if anyone knows a good web sites with code samples ...please PM or post the URL, I'v seen some but not all that great
Thank You

Sometimes less is more.......
zendrui said:
Same thing for me. C++ with EVC tools. No mfc for me (a little purist and feel it gives a clearer code )
Best way to have samller and optimize applications
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As mentioned above, if you drop ATL, MFC .NET and all the implied baggage they have to bring with them to work, you are left with the old WIN32 programming model. This is now considered very 'old hat', but if all your program uses are API's in WIN32's kernel.dll, user.dll, gdi.dll etc...... i.e. the very primative windows stuff, then it is possible to write an application that will run on any version of Windows Mobile. This application will be pretty simple, but the compiled .EXE file targetted at an ARM4xx model will run on almost any Pocket PC, without any other files. (i.e. The single APP.EXE file will run on any upwardly compatable system, no fancy implementation project to create or run, just copy the release '.exe' file to the target machine, and it will run!). These days 99%+ mobile PDA's run ARM class processors. The manufacturers call them by their own processor IDs but under the hood they are all the same.
To create an app that will run on the Mobile 5/6 platform without looking like previous Mobile 2002/3/SE apps, limit the Main menu items to two. This will make sure they appear either side of the input icon, as menu items. More than two and the Mobile 5/6 menu items appear as 2002/3/SE apps in the old control bar style.

wfberg said:
(I'd like to toy around with programming a bit on PPC - regretably it doesn't have a built-in scripting language like epoc32 has/had).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As far as scripting goes... I'm a big fan of Mortscript. It's so simple... I guess I'm a little purist myself

Basic 4PPC
Basic for Pocket PC, has anyone tried this. I went to the site and it only cost around 40.00 US. I've worked with "basic" before and the progs were usually bloated and sluggish. Wonder if this would be the same.

i have started developing in ppl language the program name is PIDE from ariana soft..its very easy..it also lets u make games
ive created my first clock in it

ATL or MFC

Hey,
I'm trying to make a User Interface for a program using Visual C++ 2005.
I have two options for Smart device applications.
1. A project for Windows Mobile and other Windows CE-based devices that uses the Active Template Library.
2. An application for Windows Mobile and other Windows CE-based devices that uses the Microsoft Foundation Class Library.
Which is the right one to use for Pocket PCs?

No idea 27 - I've never used either ATL or MFC. I do all my stuff in pure Win32. It's not necessarily the best way, but it's worked fine for me so far, but I do very limited GUI stuff.
BTW - regarding your signature:
"A tiger does not have to proclaim its tigri-tude."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
clearly Wole Soyinka hasn't met Tigger.
V

vijay555 said:
No idea 27 - I've never used either ATL or MFC. I do all my stuff in pure Win32. It's not necessarily the best way, but it's worked fine for me so far, but I do very limited GUI stuff.
V
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see.
I'm trying to make a GUI app for WindowsMobile. Any ideas?

Hi 27,
I'm not sure what you want your GUI to contain but a simple Embedded MFC app with a dialog might be a good way to get going?
best of luck...
dav

I've been developing for big Windows since '92 and have done one or two small CE projects. Straight API programming is a bit tedious but it's pretty straightforward and will help you learn the fundamentals. It also produces the tightest code, an important consideration if you're looking to run on smartphones.
Avoid MFC like the plague -- MFC apps tend toward the large side, and it tends to force you into a document/view model that might not be appropriate for your app. I did quite a bit of MFC work in the early and mid 90s; most of my time went to working around MFC's limitations.
If you go the ATL route check out WTL, a set of C++ template classes that extends the UI functionality of ATL considerably. I've been using it since it first came out and wouldn't switch back to MFC if you put a gun to my head.

I agree. MFC makes everything less straight forward. Why use something designed to hide how it works? I use plain win32. After the pain of starting from scratch you eventually build up your own code base to reuse.

both can be used
MFC is old and bulky but many things are don automaticly
compared to win32 sdk
you can also use .net but they are somewhat slow
but dont use much space
win32 sdk is the fastest and can do anything but it's the most work

3waygeek said:
I've been developing for big Windows since '92 and have done one or two small CE projects. Straight API programming is a bit tedious but it's pretty straightforward and will help you learn the fundamentals. It also produces the tightest code, an important consideration if you're looking to run on smartphones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How can i do this on VisualStudio 2005?
I'm a bit new to this.

Strange question - you develop in Win32 by NOT developing in MFC or ATL
The other frameworks are built on top of the native Win32 API. So learning the bareknuckle stuff first helps you to learn how to get the most out of the other stuff.
V

27 ask a importent question imho
can ppl make nativ CE api projects in 2005
or do you need embedded c++ to do that?
btw i believe that embedded c++ is free so if 2005 cant do it
ppl can just get the embedded version

VS2005 does native Win32 (2003, Smartphone and WM5).
EVC is of course free, and runs much better IMHO (eg no bugs in the Remote Tools etc, faster). I can't think of a good reason to upgrade unless you're developing expressly for WM5 or using non C++ languages, for which VS2005 is required.
V

Reading the registry with Visual Studio 2003

I'm developing a small application for my HTC Wizard, which I'm programming with Visual Studio 2003.
I need to open the shell application for M3U files, which I've tracked down to HKCR\M3UFile\Shell\Open\Command... but now I can't figure out how to either read that key to open the relevant player, or to execute the m3u file directly.
Because I'm using VS2003, I don't have access to system.win32 with the compact framework, so what techniques have others of you used to read or write to the registry?
Also, just as a side note, how do you find the current path?
Thanks,
Jon

There is no real concept of current path in CE. If you want to know the path your EXE is in, use GetModuleHandle(NULL) -- it'll return the fully-qualified path name of that process's EXE, from which you can parse out a path.
I'd advise against using the compact framework; .Net is a loser on PPCs as it just slows things down, taking up extra memory & cycles on a platform where both are in short supply. Use the real Windows APIs instead -- i.e. call RegCreateKeyEx/RegSetValueEx.

And if you choose to use Win32 API you can just call ShellExecuteEx()
and not mess with the registry.

RegQueryValueEx is what you need. Just set the appropriate type and buffer.
V

I'm always willing to learn new stuff... are there any good resources on programming for PPC without using .net?
I know there's EVC++, but I've installed it, and now I don't know what to do with it!
Regards,
Jon

JonTheNiceGuy said:
I'm always willing to learn new stuff... are there any good resources on programming for PPC without using .net?
I know there's EVC++, but I've installed it, and now I don't know what to do with it!
Regards,
Jon
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can either use EVC++4, which is free but has an aged, not-so-standard C++ compiler (since it based on VC++6...but it only means a few quirks), or you can use Visual Studio 2005 which is supposed to replace EVC.

Jon, not to state the obvious, but there are many c++ tutorials for the PPC on the interweb.
What kind of experience do you have?
V

I have no prior experience with C++ - I bought the C++ For Dummies book in a charity shop a month or so ago, but it seems to refer to software that isn't available any more!
My core experience is with PHP, and recently I've been more interested in VB.NET for small apps at work, but most of what I want to do is with Windows Mobile - for which, all I have is Visual Studio 2003, and my co. won't fund me buying VS2005 as I got it for an old project that I still maintain, and anything new I need to write for work I can do with VS2005 Express...
That said, I'm not afraid of learning a new language, especially something as powerful as C++.

C++ for dummies is excellent, the best I've come across so far.
Have a read through this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?p=209136#209136
I'm currently unlearning and then relearning my c++ - one thing I've learnt coming from other languages - c++ requires discipline. It's not about shortcuts, you build up from the basics and keep going steadily. But you need to be logical, and prepared to put in the effort. So discipline - it's been a long time since I've had to think about that!
V

What are the best books on WM5

Hi all,
I am new to WM5.0 programming but programmed for Winodws so i have some questions plz :wink:
does eVC++ 4.0 support developing for WM5.0?
what are the best books available for learning WM5.0 programming?
Mohammad

Best Book? You mean "Any"?
We have the same problem. The only book on CE 5.0 is in Chinese.
We ordered the newest CE book avilable, it's from 2003.
But there's a lot of CE documentation from Microsoft, and of course you can learn a lot here.

this is really strange, we find thousands of books about VC++, VB and others... isnt there a bool on WM5??

Not even CE 5.0, let alone WM 5.0.
But a lot of those VC# and C++ books are very pertinent.

Don't know of any books, but I can answer you question about eVC 4.
You can develop apps that will run on WM5, but you can't use WM5 SDK.
Mainly, this means that if you want to use a WM5 specific functions (not many of those) you have to go through LoadLibrary and GetProcAddress instead of direct linking.

Thanks, but I have installed eVC++ 4.0 and its sp4, when I try to run it, it tells me that it cant run because no sdk was found, so what to do if WM5.0 sdk cant be used with eVC++ 4.0??? do I have to use VS .NET 2005?
thanks all
Mohammad

mohgdeisat: You need to install the previous WM2003 SDK and can then develop apps in the normal way, that will run on WM2003 and WM5. What you can't do without WM5 SDK is develop apps JUST for WM5.
However, I imagine that you can install the WM5 SDK anyway, and directly use the Libaries and Headers manually, just by pointing the project settings to load libraries from the WM5 directories.
I do this in quite a few of my WM2003 apps anyway.
This will still make a WM2003 app, but it will support WM5 features, if you're lucky.
I don't suggest installing Visual Studio unless you have to, but if you're serious about developing on WM5, then I very much recommend it.
And remember, Microsoft gives a free trial version of the Professional version, for download (2.7gb).
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=59991&highlight=visual+studio+trial
If you have to reinstall every 3 months, it's still cheaper then buying it I guess. :wink:
V

Actually, you can't install the WM5 SDK unless you have the studio. I tired and got the message "You have no products that can use this SDK installed ..."
It wouldn't let me continue.
If someone knows of a workaround for this (that does not include installing VS 2005) I would be glad to hear it.

Take apart the cabs/installers and extract the headers and libraries.
I can zip them up if you want, I suppose.
I may be confusing myself with Platform Builder, but that's how I'd do it if I had to.
V

Thanks for the idea V and the offer. No need to zip the stiff though.

Thanks guys,
I am really interested in building WM applications as I believe that WM development will have a giant jump in then next years.
I am ready to install VS .NET 2005, but I am not interested in developing .NET applications for WM5.0 environment, I read about CF and CE programming and I came up with a conclusion that if I want to develop serious commercial and robust applications then I should use C++, either pure WinAPI programming or at least use miniMFC library.
I really care very much about robustness and resource usage of applications, I also want to use a productive development tool/environment.
My question is, when you compare between miniMFC vs pure WinAPI programming you find miniMFC more productive, yet WinAPI is more robus,portable and efficient, so I have to compromise here... What do u think should I use miniMFC or WinAPI? does the development in WinAPI bring great performance advantages over miniMFC?
Thank you
Mohammad

I think you are missing something here.
MFC (mini or not) is basically a collection of prepared code. It still uses win32 API (there is no getting away from them unless you are using .NET) but it raps them up in convenient classes. If you are writing a large app, with a lot of interface components (multiple dialogs, view windows etc) MFC can save you a whole lot of coding, though statically linking it will add about 0.5MB to your app size.
Using MFC also doesn't exclude using win32 API directly to reclaim functionality that MFC skips.
When writing small utilities or system add-ons like today plug-ins it is best not to use MFC to reduce app size.
While I agree with you 100% that .NET CF is still to resource hungry for Pocket PC and Smartphone devices, it should be noted that when writing large GUI rich apps that require database or other outside components using .NET saves a whole lot of work for the programmer (while the user pays the price in speed and memory).

Thank you,
I know that MFC wraps win32 api in classes for the ease of use, it has also a good OO hierarchy, and this is very good, it increases productivity but as far as I know there are costs when using MFC library, those include Exe file size, memory usage, and even cpu resource usage.
As I read from many books, programming windows applications using pure Win API enhances performance (speed/resource usage) but I dont know to what degree it enhances performance.
in short, MFC is more productive, easy and well managed.. but WinAPI is more efficient.. but when I use Win API program development will take longer time than it takes with MFC, so is using Win API (no MFC) is justified by its performance advantages over MFC (or miniMFC)??
Thanks

Does .Net have something like JIT Compiler?

mohgdeisat, sorry, I misunderstood you. When you asked if you should use MFC or pure win32 API I assumed you thought they were mutually exclusive.
I haven't actually measured this with any tool, but from writing apps both ways I can tell you that while file size can get significantly larger (by as much as 0.5MB maybe more) as far as speed is concerned there seem to be no noticeable difference.
Also you have the option to link to MFC dynamically which will eliminate the increase of your exe size.
The difference in programming effort is very noticeable, specially when building dialogs and handling their controls. What needs only a couple lines of code with MFC is likely to take whole functions without.
So for a large program I recommend you to use MFC or look in to some alternatives like ATL.

Developing Software getting started

I looking for advice on getting started developing simple programs for WM5 - I guess I'm not really bothered if they don'y make use of the advanced features
The options appear to be
#1 MS Visual Studio 2005 (90-trial or $$$)+ WM5 SDK (free)
#2 MS Embedded Visual C++ 4.0 SP4 (free) + WM2003 SDK (free)
#3 MS Embedded Visual C++ 3.0 - 2002 edition - PPC2002+SP2002 SDK included (free). Also include Embedded Visual Basic.
As my recent experience is VB I guess option 3 is best C++ learning curve might be a bit steep given the just for fun motivation
but ..... there are other options saw this today
PPL - Pocket Programming Language
Write software for your PocketPC and PC in minutes using our new programming language. PPL is a fast and easy-to-learn programming language that is fully object-oriented. PPL runs on all Pocket PC using PocketPC 2000, 2002, Windows Mobile 2003, 2003SE, and 2005 (VGA compatible). PPL also runs on Windows 2000, XP, 2003 Server desktop computers. Programs written for one system are 100% compatible with the other.
Write high quality games in no time using our easy-to-use GameAPI that incorporates physics, isometric display support, pixel-perfect collision detection and so much more...
Design forms visually on your PDA or desktop computer with the visual form builder. Edit components properties and code events within the same interface. PPL is a complete development environment.
Starting as low as $39.95 USD for a limited time.PPL - Pocket Programming Language
Write software for your PocketPC and PC in minutes using our new programming language. PPL is a fast and easy-to-learn programming language that is fully object-oriented. PPL runs on all Pocket PC using PocketPC 2000, 2002, Windows Mobile 2003, 2003SE, and 2005 (VGA compatible). PPL also runs on Windows 2000, XP, 2003 Server desktop computers. Programs written for one system are 100% compatible with the other.
Write high quality games in no time using our easy-to-use GameAPI that incorporates physics, isometric display support, pixel-perfect collision detection and so much more...
Design forms visually on your PDA or desktop computer with the visual form builder. Edit components properties and code events within the same interface. PPL is a complete development environment.
Starting as low as $39.95 USD for a limited time.
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52935&highlight=
there must be other options?
I guess SharpDevelop 2.1
develop is an Open Source IDE written in c# and running on the Microsoft .NET platform.
http://wiki.sharpdevelop.net/default.aspx/SharpDevelop.CompactFramework2Development
Opinions welcomed

The old VB for CE (and eVB) were rubbish. Unless it changed in much later versions these were just VBscript, not actually VB. Very limited functionality indeed.
All the C++ versions work OK (and I still use eVC++ 4 sometimes) , but of course C++ is a fairly fiddly, low-productivity language. It's not really the ideal language for having a play.
So, sorry to say, of the Microsoft ones VS2003/VS2005 using VB.net or c#.net are by far the easiest, and most productive of other offerings.
Never tried the non-MS ones.
Stuart

The real trouble with embedded VB is the runtime library it requires which will not run on WM 5 (it barely works on WM 2003).
I remember seeing a cheap and according to the manufacturer powerful VB compiler in some post on the forum, but for the life of me can't remember the name. It compiles to native code and doesn't require a run time.
Now it's true that C++ takes more work to get things done, but it also gives you more power. Even if you just program for your self you may one day want to create your own today plugin or even keyboard and that can't be done in .NET
My recommendation: Spend a little time and learn MFC. It has a lot of similarities to the .NET languages and saves a lot of work for C++ programmers.

[OT] i've also just started "trying" to create applications using vb.net on VS5. Am i allowed to ask questions here? Or is there a thread for posting vb or c questions?

Never seen a specif thread for these, and I am here quite often for a long time.
If you have a specific question you can even open a new thread, no need to clatter several unrelated issues in to one giant thread just because there about same programing language.
Just do a quick search first to make sure it's not something that was asked a 100 times and away you go.

Thanks I guess that leaves me with
PPL - Pocket Programming Language and SharpDevelop 2.1c#

thanks levenum. i will be doing that

starfish_001 said:
Thanks I guess that leaves me with
PPL - Pocket Programming Language and SharpDevelop 2.1c#
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can highly recommend ppl, seeing as I just entered the games competition and had my entry done in just over twenty days, without any real windows based programming background.
it's relatively cheap, and the support is great, with questions on the forum getting a very fast turn around.

Here's another to look at Basic4ppc
http://www.basic4ppc.com/

Basic4ppc and ppl are both great little applications

what is MFC ?
levenum said:
My recommendation: Spend a little time and learn MFC. It has a lot of similarities to the .NET languages and saves a lot of work for C++ programmers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
trying ot choose on which programming language I will begin with and I was wondering what is MFC ?
Thank you

MFC == microsoft foundation Classes --- library
it's a library which encaption the gui and other general purpos functionalitet of windows in a set of classes that makes it
easier to get ones program up and running without having to
worry about WinMain and a messageLoop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Foundation_Classes
microsoft have long since abandoned mfc as their pref library
now they are pushing .NET
problem is that .net is slower more so on devices like pda's

MFC really means
Mother F*cking Crazy, which it will drive you! All joking aside it is probably the best thing to develop in. I've writen small apps with it on every CE since 2.11 and even on XPeMbedded (which I'd avoid like the black death).
I've had great success with C# on WM5 and Pocket PC before. Even wrote a handheld POS terminal. Microsoft is really behind .NET and it will be supported for a long time. It's very easy to learn and the documentation is great.
Visual Basic .NET will do the same job, but keep in mind the switch from VB6 to VB.NET is HUGE. Just because some of the code looks the same doesn't mean it is. I'd take the time and learn C#. If you're really serious register as Microsoft ISV (their program is Empower for ISVs). For $375 you get basically everything MS has written in the last 10 years. You get 5 development use copies of anything you want including Visual Studio 2005 Professional. All you have to do is create an app for a Microsoft system in 18 months.
PM me if you need any more details.

Thanks
starfish_001 said:
Thanks I guess that leaves me with
PPL - Pocket Programming Language and SharpDevelop 2.1c#
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank u bro