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Hi,
I need to read CellID and RxLev by my program. I have no idea how to do this. Could anyone to help me? Thanks
Unfortunately it's not been implemented by HTC, so the simple answer is no. You could try and use the SMS system directly through RIL, although because Cell based positioning is quite a hot topic and nobody has yet done it, I'd guess it't not possible.
Anybody know if XDAII has a working API for this?
Just use tracelogger, pwd is htc, choose MMI + Event then run the tracelogviewer provided by the XDA developers site you'll get your CID and rx Level
andyclap said:
Unfortunately it's not been implemented by HTC, so the simple answer is no.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is I would guess why RIL_GetCellTowerInfo always returns 0x80004001, which I belive means not implemented. (XDA I) But I might be using the wrong call... ??
If this information is available on the XDA II, then there must be programmatically a way through RIL, so either I am using the wrong call, or RIL has been fixed, or something else I haven't thought of... Any ideas?
Ben.
Yeah, it would be great if the XDAII supported this (Cell based min-GPS!), so does anybody know for definite the scope of the new RIL on the XDAII?
andyclap said:
Cell based min-GPS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You read my mind!
I think this might be why this information is so hard to find. This data, once calibrated (which using, say, TomTom, would not be hard) is a considerable asset, to which the various phone companies are trying to protect. Which sounds like a challange to me...
Ben
Yeah - O2 at least are marketing this info as a developer program, with a lookup charge "from 5p per lookup". What a bargain, considering the device already has the information (though it really applies to mobile phones that don't have SDK access).
Don't they realise that if they helped us create an app for them to do this and, say, link to multimap.com, it'd be a killer app and they'd sell hundreds more XDAs.
Good idea. They would get the GPRS service charge for the multimap lookup as well. Although I think the cell id is too course. But some part of the phone knows far more accuratelly where it is, so that it knows when to change cell. Although this is not yet an area I know much about.
I belive, if you jump through enough hoops, O2 gives grants for programms which enhance the XDA, there's a project for somebody.... If anybody can work out how to get the s***ding cell id out of the XDA
ben
Yeah - O2 at least are marketing this info as a developer program, with a lookup charge "from 5p per lookup". What a bargain, considering the device already has the information (though it really applies to mobile phones that don't have SDK access).
Don't they realise that if they helped us create an app for them to do this and, say, link to multimap.com, it'd be a killer app and they'd sell hundreds more XDAs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The idea of the Location APi is not as good as what we want. The idea is that an office queries O2 servers for the cell location of the target unit, for which they charge the office (end-user). O2 are looking for software solutions that draw on this to provide added content so that some poor sap carries on paying 5p a hit to get back the rough cell based location of a unit. Bloody expensive as a tracker or SatNav. Might as well just stick a GPS unit on the back & send that data back via GPRS - cheaper!
O2 actually have a website with the info on their cell sites on it BUT they have 8500 of them at least, so getting all that info out is a hard task.
Site is Here
We need to crack getting Cell ID, Signal Strength, Nearest Other Towers, Nearest OT Signal Strength + I daresay a few more before applying that to a database, after which we could probably have a device that told us our position to within 100m, which we could then send back via GPRS, thus not allowing the network to charge 5p a hit.
That's why the Cell Location database is not available - they stand to make/lose too much revenue.
Wonder how much the database is worth?
It wouldn't be too difficult to scrape the site - while it gives no true positional information, it can return a list of cell towers within a radius (upto 5km ish) of a known tower, with their distance: we could triangulate three sets of this information to get the real locations of towers. Once these locations are known, we can recursively triangulate from them to eventually get all the data for the UK at least.
But, the main thing to do, as you say, is to find a programmatic way of getting the current cellId, signal strength, and preferably as much information about other local towers too to further refine the result.
Hmmm, just thought - as the XDA developers here are "jolly nice and clever people", they have supplied the source to tracelogview. It wouldn't be too difficult to modify this to scan for tower information messages and do the appropriate things. It just means that the users have to enable tracelog manually, though perhaps we could send some keyboard messages to start it up and enter the password. It's hacky, but it just might work!
Might have a go at this tomorrow!
Overview of Location APi as offered by O2 - taken from Source02 website
The first of our APIs to be delivered is the Location API which has been developed by our partner Redknee.
The service enables you to create and sell innovative new applications and services based on a mobile phone user's location.
The O2 service is charged from 5p a lookup and provides the longitude and latitude co-ordinates of the centre of the cell site sector the phone is located within. Cell sites are typically split into three sectors and range in size from several hundred metres in urban areas up to 15 kilometres in more remote regions.
Third parties are able to develop location-enabled applications utilising real time location data from the O2 UK network. Application owners will have the opportunity to validate their applications in a test environment prior to connecting to the live O2 UK network. Location information will only be passed to third parties who have a contract with O2 and have the consent of the end user to determine his/her location.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I may be wrong, but...
I belive the telco and the phone have a different idea of where the device is, as they plot the position of the device using different mechanisms and for different uses. They use this when they have to contact a phone to send an incomming call. This application is making use of the telco's permanent database of the location of all their devices. This is easy money for the telco.
We do not have access to this data, and the positional information we can get will be in a different format, accept for the Cell ID. We will have to infer the position of the XDA from RIL, TAPI, AT, using the data listed in previous postings. As was suggested, getting an idea of the strength of local transmitters, and calculating a position. Which in it's self may be a real challange, as there is not likelly to be a linear relationship between the strength of the transmitter and the distance to it.
It may be likelly that the cell size (~200m, -> ~15km) is the nearest we'll ever get. I note that people in Dover very often get routed through transmitters in France due to the cliffs on the coast of England. In this case, any meaningful positional data is getting more unlikelly.
PS, can any kind person with an XDAII tell me whether the RILL call:
HRESULT RIL_GetCellTowerInfo(HRIL hRil);
Returns something other than 80004001?
Ben
PS, can any kind person with an XDAII tell me whether the RILL call:
HRESULT RIL_GetCellTowerInfo(HRIL hRil);
Returns something other than 80004001?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunatelly this still returns '80004001 Unsupported' on XDA II.
But the RIL_GetSignalQuality does return valid data when connected to GPRS, unlike XDA I, so some things are getting better...
Ben
Hi all,
i just saw a programm that uses the cell ID and convert this one °, but it just works with received data from any handy via Irda or cable.
So if u want to take a look visit (german site):
http://www.wolfgang-back.com/navigauss.php
That works but it would be the first way, to use the XDA cellID instead of external data...perhaps any idea on this?
With greetings from germany
Harry
Cell ID
Guys u can get the cell id using java.
The cell ID is memorized in the sim card and the mobile phone compares always whether the CID he is receiving from the signal, is the same one memorized in the sim card.
If yes the mobile does nothing. If not the mobile phone updates the CID in the sim card. this is done almost every 5 seconds.
Now we need the API !!! and maybe the AID of the sim applet. :roll:
Once more,
could the following be a walkable way?:
1. cell-Id could be shown (tracelog and traceview says how)
2. If that is fact, then it is with calculating gauss-to- longitude/latidude (visit www.nobbi.com) makable to view the actually position.
3. The last step it would be, to bring Information like longitude/latidude in ° to the standard gps-format (it is known or free i think) and send it via comm1 to all navigation-software.
4. So if this all is nonsens tell me because i am not really a programmer ( my code would be as fine as my english is :-((
bye Harry
Hiwi said:
1. cell-Id could be shown (tracelog and traceview says how)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's right, but cell id says nothing about position.
2. If that is fact, then it is with calculating gauss-to- longitude/latidude (visit www.nobbi.com) makable to view the actually position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
see comment 1. Only O2 Germany transmits GK/coordinates over Cell Broadcast....
3. The last step it would be, to bring Information like longitude/latidude in ° to the standard gps-format (it is known or free i think) and send it via comm1 to all navigation-software.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If 1. and 2. would be possible this is still a problem since most (all) GPS-Software only accept input from COM-Port (you have to emulate a COM-Port ... not trivial)
4. So if this all is nonsens tell me because i am not really a programmer ( my code would be as fine as my english is :-((
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
:wink:
John
Having written a DLL to get the CellID from the XDA, and then comparing the result with the O2 cell tower map info as described by 'Puff the Magic Wagon' on Nov 4, I find there is a discrepancy of 10000
e.g. in a clients office in Blackburn
Cell ID returned = 3AAF( Hex) = 15023 (Dec)
From www.webmap.o2.co.uk Higher Audley Cell = 5023
This seems to be the case for all cells I have tried.
There also seems to be some Cell ID's which I cannot reconcile with the o2 map results.
mjgermain
The problem you've encountered arrises from the fact that there are more than 9999 CSR (Cell Site References) that are registered with the RA.
O2 identify cells in the following way.
AXXXX
Where A = the direction the transmitter is facing (directional transmitters)
(roughly)
1=North
2=South East
3=West
then 4, 5, 6 & sometimes 7, 8, 9 depending on how many transmitters on the aerial - always in 3s
So in your example 1XXXX, the transmitter is facing north (so should be to the south of you) but depending on that aerial (yours only has 3)
We then get to the XXXX
I believe that CSRs are allocated by the government and are a 5 figure number. Therefore CSRs upto 9999 are able to be placed quite simply.
15023 is correct.
However, what happens when transmitter number 10001 comes along? According to O2 numbering system, that 0001 number is already allocated. So they have to use another method of identifying cells.
Somewhere else in the country there might be transmitter that IDs as 15023 :shock: :?
So having a database of CellIDs and transmitter numbers is not all that is needed, the additional "identifier" is required and together that gives the CSR which has a lat/long applied to it.
The identifier is the LAC or Local Area Code
So AXXXX + LAC = CSR
There are still a few anomolies in this as well it would seem. Fill-in transmitters and "private" or "mini" transmitters the likely cause.
I had access to the O2 CellID db when I was last working & we were able to create a basic Cell tracking system, but the company went titsup.com before we were able to factor in LAC and signal strength etc.
Does your program work on XDA2?
For all those who are mildly paranoid about being monitored how much do we really know about the following: The XDA2 changes hands, is the original owner's info still linked to it; the XDA2 is barred, when using it as a PDA does it still send out signals? if so, can these signals be located? can the XDA2 be used to surf without a sim card, if so, are the signals posted to anyone? Can the XDA2 be unbarred? If it can be, is it hardwired to retain its original ID? Does all this sound like the Matrix ... well it may well be! :roll:
sounds like u got sum good dope
email me
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
...but seriously...
Dead Ringer said:
For all those who are mildly paranoid about being monitored how much do we really know about the following: The XDA2 changes hands, is the original owner's info still linked to it; the XDA2 is barred, when using it as a PDA does it still send out signals? if so, can these signals be located? can the XDA2 be used to surf without a sim card, if so, are the signals posted to anyone? Can the XDA2 be unbarred? If it can be, is it hardwired to retain its original ID? Does all this sound like the Matrix ... well it may well be! :roll:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When the radio is switched on the xda sends the imei whether a sim is in place or not, the information of a previous owner is lost once a hard reset is carried out, however some people think that by unclicking permanant save, that the data is lost, well that isnt true because if the next owner switches it back on and you were using the feature before, he will have access to all your data, the only way I found was to delete all contacts, check permanent save, reboot then uncheck it. There is no way known at the moment that is public knowledge that allows you to manipulate imei on xda2. I understand that there are calls from the uk government to have all imei numbers in hardware rather than firmware/software to make it almost impossible to change identity. Just because you are paranoid doesnt mean they arent out to get you. :shock:
Thank you you seem to be THE authority on XDA! You say ""When the radio is switched on the xda sends the imei whether a sim is in place or not"" I am not sure I understand the concept of 'radio' in the xda2. can the radio be switched off/disabled? what signals are sent and how are these managed, by whom? because there is now billing requirement why should this radio signal be monitored? It has been also said that "Paranoia is the belief in a hidden order behind the visible." anon (why do u think he chose to remain anon?)
:arrow: All cellular phones are beacons :!:
If you suspect they are listening, well, they are and all you can do is to make a little harder, thus:
http://www.cryptophone.de/html/products_en.html
It is not paranoia when they are really after you 8)
I want whatever you are smoking man!
Wish I was smoking something man! Maybe some food poisoning from bad lumpia :?
I was in a security presentation and saw how a secuirty engineer from Motorola was able to pinpoint and triangulate 17 different phones in an auditorium and then go down to each unit and "clone" it for surveillance purposes with a GUI application in his laptop. ( With the users permission for the purpose of the demo!)
If they are showcasing this technology, then I guarantee Big Brother
( NSA and NRO specifically) have the capability in a more advanced form and blend it with Exchelon, key word analysis and the like....
have a look at www.followus.co.uk its excellent we use it to track the kids, ( the more cell sites close by the better the fix) its show us they are at near by to where ever they say they are
Yes, I am aware of that service.
It is a good thing for parents and businesses and is not infringing on privacy because it is consentual and voluntary.
It amazes me to see how many peope think cell phones are not easy to trace or tap because they are mobile!
Having started this thread, I was begining to think no-one cared!
Is it worth pulling together all the intelligence on remote monitoring in one place? The benefit of this will be to know what currently done and if it is at all possible tweak the systems to ensure a modicum of privacy.
There is all sorts of legislation protecting privacy and some ensuring civil liberties. What are the implications of mobile phone contracts, for instance? Do they have a duty of care to protect our privacy is there anything in the contracts that limit their liability in this regard, and if so, why?
oh ... and I don't smoke but I'm told that I don't need to!
I was watching the idiot box the other day and it indicated that due to the 911 phone issue and requirement, all mobile phones were required to be able to be located to an address when calling 911, and thus all phones were required to have GPS unit installed, is this correct?
If that is so, are these phones illegal in the US as they dont have one, or do they have one and we dont know about it?
In the UK it is possible to track a mobile phone, and is done with 999 call in certain circumstances a number of ways. But I don't believe they use GPS in any of them yet. the main way is to tri-anglated (spelt sommit like that!) where the signal came from, which pin-points it to a faily small, but not perfect, radius.
The US are normally slightly more advanced with that sort of thing, but probably use a similar system.
Sorry, I just read your post again, the located to an address might be what we in UK do as a Subscriber Check, which is how we locate the owners of mobile phones in the police in UK. It can only be done in certain circumstances again, due to human rights, data protections, etc etc. But does not locate where the phone is when the signal was made, instead informs us who owns and registered the phone, and to what address.
Great if the phone is a contract phone.... But with PAYG it's not always that simple... you can pick these up anywhere now, and some people don't bother registering them...
When you use your mobile phone it can usually communicate with more than 1 base station & pick the nearest, it will also identify which transmitter on the base station has the strongest signal. You may also move between base stations as signal strength varies.
This information along with the amount of time to send & receive a signal can be used to identify the location of the mobile.
If the mobile can only see 1 base station it can be used to identify the location of the mobile in relation to the base station along with the distance.
If it can see 2 or more base stations it can be used to triangulate location.
Hope this helps.
Mike
Operators are required to upgrade their networks to support E911 service and have (I seem to remember) until November 2006 to complete said upgrade. There is presently no provision requiring individual handsets to provide GPS coordinates - or any other location-indicating function. There are several initiatives being explored that, if they come to fruition, would require location-reporting functions to be an integral part of new handsets.
Many of the dumb phones (Motorola etc) do already have some kind of GPS receiver, mostly AGPS (Assisted GPS) where the mobile network provides time, ephemeris and almanach, and the receiver only needs to listen to the sat time.
But only the HP iPAQ 6515 and 6915 have a similar chip at the moment, other smartphones or Pocket PC phones (like the Universal) don't have it. With all the hype around LBS it won't take long, maybe two or three generations of devices, until this is standard anyhow.
The E911 compliance has been delayed over and over again, and will be delayed through november. To cite the late Douglas Adams "I like deadlines, especially the swooshing sound they make when they pass by."
In fact, it's a 400 bucks piece of utterly unreliable, useless crap.
Since I got my device back from "repair", it's been a mixed experience. Most things work, some make me cringe in despair.
Today is a bad-TyTN day and I'm really, really <expletive/>.
After the repair, I thought my "No GSM" problems were gone. But today, the first time I really couldn't do without it, it crashed a couple of minutes after I unplugged it from the USB-ActiveSync 4.5 link and told me again "No GSM".
And of course, the result being:
- All POP3 accounts lost, and now I lost all emails and have to use different account names to set them up again
- Network connections credentials lost, even built-in. No I can, again, connected by other means, go figure out how to set these up or,
- finally, hard-reset the device, which is a pain in the neck because I have no out-of-the-box backup.
I'm not even running any third-party software on the device for fear of introducing non-linearities. I did not even install the brand-new TomTom 6, also since nobody seems to be able to sell a sufficiently large MicroSD card at this time.
Who's to blame for my bad experience?
Did I do something wrong? Setting the lock-timeout to 2 hours instead of 12, so it locked during the ActiveSync session?
Did HTC screw up so it would reset some "protected storage" when the GSM card is not detected for some magical reason?
Does Windows Mobile 5.0 AKU2 just have too much bugs to be reliable?
Does my provider E-Plus Germany suck for confusing the device with poor, unreliable UMTS coverage and internet connection problems?
It's a mixture of all these things, I guess. There are too many moving parts, most of which aren't sufficiently documented by Microsoft, or kept up-to-date software-wise by HTC and the service providers.
Examples:
- Messaging that unrecoverably screws up my POP3 accounts and there is no documentation in the SDK about the setup to fix it myself.
- The worthless MediaPlayer, that abandons it's meta-data when the storage card is released.
- The HTC phone software that at times wouldn't let me hang up on occasions, or doesn't start, or keeps using a bad UMTS connection even if GPRS is available and good.
I thought the TyTN would make a great every-day device for a phone and a software development platform for new-class applications.
So far, it's been one of the greatest time-wasters I've ever acquired.
Just like any other toy.
Useless crap.
Not had anything quite as bad as that. Never had to hard reset due to irreversible problem. But, yes quite a few soft resets and in a way although I want to disagree with you I think the device is cutting edge and could easily have been held back a year to iron out some problems. However as you say some of these problems are down to WM and telecoms providers. For business I would not get one of these but probably something with fewer features but high reliability.
For trying out the new or new combinations of features I would still buy a TyTn in preference to anything similar and yes a large part of this is about experimentation and an acceptance that if this were not cutting edge in some ways then reliability would not be acceptable. As it is though my business use is low on TyTn having "Fun" and experimenting is high. My rant is about releasing the device with obvious hardware irritations, the software.. well that can always be upgraded.
Mike
HB_TyTN said:
Does Windows Mobile 5.0 AKU2 just have too much bugs to be reliable?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Surely not - the problems you've listed (particularly the stale e-mail accounts) are not MS-related problems but because of stale WinCE database entries.
Next time DO run SKTools 3 to clean up the mail databases instead of hard resetting your device.
Furthermore, it's a very bad a idea to send a device in for service that still has data on it. You should have wiped it before sending anyway...
If you view a PPC Phone as a primary data storage/communications center, then you're in for a disappointment. On the other hand, if you use it as an extension of your personal computer, then not only will you have a very productive device but you'll keep your sanity.
I've always used this strategy since my first sync experience on a Nokia 6210 six-years ago. Appointments and contacts all easily synced to my phone. Replaced that with grey t68. Then came the PocketLOOX 600 (touted as first convergence device - nice idea, poor execution). I tolerated the buggy loox for 18-months before trading UP to an h4150 running wm2003se. Great device. Kept a t610 for phone, ppc as outlook back-up.
Arrived in Taiwan for an extended business trip end of July -- immediately picked up the local version CHT9000 (aka Dopod 838pro). Through this forum, someone graciously made available the first English language ROM -- a tad buggy, but later upgraded to my current ROM (dopod 1.23) and in everyway it has exceeded my expectations. I take it to the US and it my t-mobile account with gprs keeps me connected. Recently spent two weeks in Korea and all over China -- again, UMTS available most places, GPRS/EDGE filled in the blanks. Mobile carriers everywhere will love HTC for bringing this device to the masses.
Don't have to, but it's prudent to sync the device at least once a day. In the event you lose the device, it's stolen, or you're forced to hard reset, because it's just a 'copy' of your outlook system, it's no big loss.
All that said -- I'd recommend this device to anyone with at least some technical savvy. Without this, they could never appreciate truly the first quad-band gsm/tri-band UMTS, BT2.0, WiFi G, PPC Phone with both a useable keyboard AND a real scroll wheel and would be better off owning a Chocolate or some other Nokia/SonyEricsson 'fashion accessory'.
Cheers
Menneisyys said:
Surely not - the problems you've listed (particularly the stale e-mail accounts) are not MS-related problems but because of stale WinCE database entries.
Next time DO run SKTools 3 to clean up the mail databases instead of hard resetting your device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why do I have to use 3rd-party tools to fix such a problem? Where is the KB article about it, either on Microsoft's or HTC's or on my provider's website?
goestoeleven said:
Furthermore, it's a very bad a idea to send a device in for service that still has data on it. You should have wiped it before sending anyway...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Before repair, my device had the "Does not reliably detect SIM card" problem, that clearly discouraged me to put any data on it.
As requested by my service provider, I sent in the device hard-reset, without SIMcard, SDcard, battery, or stylus. I even removed the screen protector.
So all that's lost now (EMail accounts, passwords, WiFi, and what not), has been set completely new AFTER repair.
aquanaut88 said:
If you view a PPC Phone as a primary data storage/communications center, then you're in for a disappointment. On the other hand, if you use it as an extension of your personal computer, then not only will you have a very productive device but you'll keep your sanity.
[...]
Don't have to, but it's prudent to sync the device at least once a day. In the event you lose the device, it's stolen, or you're forced to hard reset, because it's just a 'copy' of your outlook system, it's no big loss.
All that said -- I'd recommend this device to anyone with at least some technical savvy. Without this, they could never appreciate truly the first quad-band gsm/tri-band UMTS, BT2.0, WiFi G, PPC Phone with both a useable keyboard AND a real scroll wheel and would be better off owning a Chocolate or some other Nokia/SonyEricsson 'fashion accessory'.
Cheers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I appreciated the great feature list of the TyTN by putting more than 400 bucks on the table and commited to an additional data plan as well as another 24 months of mediocre network coverage and service.
As I said, I planned to use it for developing pocket pc applications and little helpers to make my life easier.
I use it as an extension to my laptop, it is connected to it via USB most of the time, to charge and sync.
But feel like I could demand that it reliably keeps my data until I sync again.
If I have to always carry my laptop around to get that reliability, then it would have been way cheaper to go with a UMTS modem card instead.
If something is only useful to technologically savvy geeks, without reliability for the Joe Public every-day user, then I consider it a toy. Maybe a great, feature-overbearing, remarkably innovative toy, but nevertheless, something to play with, not to rely on.
Unfortunately, beside the technical problems that could be overcome by updates and repairs, it's a systematic issue that support is split across Microsoft, HTC and my provider.
As I said, it's terrible hard to figure out if a problem is caused by my fault, inappropriate settings, too little or too much tweaking, mediocre network coverage, hardware faults or software problems.
I wouldn't mind hard-resetting the device every day, if there was something resembling a simple backup _out-of-the-box_.
By backup I mean settings, including personalization, network connections, email accounts, sms/mms, custom ringtones, etc.
And that's exactly what I'm into finding to buy or writing myself.
Finally, again
Hang, bang, gone. "No GSM" again.
This time not recovering.
The new thing this time: My service provider E-Plus doesn't accept it for repair.
I should quit my day job so I can fully concentrate on the struggle with this heap of crap.
HB_TyTN said:
In fact, it's a 400 bucks piece of utterly unreliable, useless crap.
Since I got my device back from "repair", it's been a mixed experience. Most things work, some make me cringe in despair.
Today is a bad-TyTN day and I'm really, really <expletive/>.
After the repair, I thought my "No GSM" problems were gone. But today, the first time I really couldn't do without it, it crashed a couple of minutes after I unplugged it from the USB-ActiveSync 4.5 link and told me again "No GSM".
And of course, the result being:
- All POP3 accounts lost, and now I lost all emails and have to use different account names to set them up again
- Network connections credentials lost, even built-in. No I can, again, connected by other means, go figure out how to set these up or,
- finally, hard-reset the device, which is a pain in the neck because I have no out-of-the-box backup.
I'm not even running any third-party software on the device for fear of introducing non-linearities. I did not even install the brand-new TomTom 6, also since nobody seems to be able to sell a sufficiently large MicroSD card at this time.
Who's to blame for my bad experience?
Did I do something wrong? Setting the lock-timeout to 2 hours instead of 12, so it locked during the ActiveSync session?
Did HTC screw up so it would reset some "protected storage" when the GSM card is not detected for some magical reason?
Does Windows Mobile 5.0 AKU2 just have too much bugs to be reliable?
Does my provider E-Plus Germany suck for confusing the device with poor, unreliable UMTS coverage and internet connection problems?
It's a mixture of all these things, I guess. There are too many moving parts, most of which aren't sufficiently documented by Microsoft, or kept up-to-date software-wise by HTC and the service providers.
Examples:
- Messaging that unrecoverably screws up my POP3 accounts and there is no documentation in the SDK about the setup to fix it myself.
- The worthless MediaPlayer, that abandons it's meta-data when the storage card is released.
- The HTC phone software that at times wouldn't let me hang up on occasions, or doesn't start, or keeps using a bad UMTS connection even if GPRS is available and good.
I thought the TyTN would make a great every-day device for a phone and a software development platform for new-class applications.
So far, it's been one of the greatest time-wasters I've ever acquired.
Just like any other toy.
Useless crap.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the first BIG complaint i have heard about the product.. Second, wow, what did you do to it that it had to end-up in repairs? (fiddler??) Third, if it does give this much problems, then there was something wrong with it from the start, but you didnt take it back an did not insist on a swop?
Look at this app, install it and see if your gsm still is disabled?
Also check your settings again to make sure all is set to the right ones! Else you got a big problem or just dono how the thing works(just saying this coz 80% of all problems are caused by the user him/herself!! See it everyday then they blame me!).. RTFM
Or it could be a virus!! hahah That would be funny!!
OH, your rom version!! Wow dude!! Update the thing!! ROM Version: 1.18.257.2; ROM Date: 05/30/06
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Hermes_Upgrades
HB_TyTN said:
Hang, bang, gone. "No GSM" again.
This time not recovering.
The new thing this time: My service provider E-Plus doesn't accept it for repair.
I should quit my day job so I can fully concentrate on the struggle with this heap of crap.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just as testing purpose: superCID it and try to flash with HTC South African 1.35 Rom
The ROM update worked for me. It took a lot of work to get mine running how it should after that, 3rd party software, reg settings, and I must admit it runs beautifully now. But when it came out of the box it was bloody awful, wouldn't turn on, take 5 seconds to hang up, freeze etc.
One word ... iPhone, hmm.
Hallo HB_TyTN
Like you I am on the E-Plus network (at Hannover), and use a O2-branded Tytn, same firmware. However, I never experienced problems like you, and like us others got used to occasional soft reset requirements, mainly related to the 3rd party Today items I use.
Now that HTC is in the retail market by itself it is certainly not wise to buy their wares over service providers (unless like you one buys on contract), since HTC for machines bought with them will go to greater efforts to repair or exchange machines. Eplus will not repair your Tytn, but usually just send you another "refurbished" one from the same batch they got from HTC.
For the moment you seem stuck with E-Plus, and you can attempt to pressure them into proper service according to German law. Another possibility is in fact to try the South African ROM, and see if it improves your machine. Third option is to beg HTC for direct repair, maybe with confirmation from E-Plus that they cannot help you, and send the machine directly to a HTC repair centre. If you send in your machine, please mail a copy of your attached letter to Fred Liu, HTC COO office, 23 Hsin Hua Rd., Taoyuan 330, Taiwan, R. O. C.
He is the COO of HTC and the top boss of HTC Europe. Coming to Germany soon, he will not want to make enemies here ))
Now after 10 hours it booted just fine and I'm just rapiconfigging back my email accounts and networks.
Reestablishing Bluetooth pairings and TomTom actvation is still manual.
I'm not fiddling. First time it failed right out-of-the-box. After repair #1 I only installed SKTools and TomTom Navigator 6.
ROM upgrade is no option, E-Plus/Brightpoint have not published an update. So there would be no way back.
Last repair the device wasn't switched (same S/N, IMEI, ROM version), so I guess they couldn't repro the problem (that would also explain their refusal to repair it again).
Next time I'll rush to an E-Plus shop as soon as it happens.
lol < well this sucks. cant use less than 10chars.. > lol
My first experiences with the TyTn also were disappointing. It took me weeks to get it more or less useable, and even now some things are not as convenient as they were on my Symbian phone. Here are the things that bother me (some are solved by 3rd party applications, others are not):
General:
- onscreen keyboard pops up even when one is using the hardware keyboard
- no way to backup all the settings
- often hard to navigate when not wanting to use the stylus
- only one language for text entry (word completion and transcriber)
- no data counter (gprs traffic)
- wordcompletion intervenes too much (when I type a Dutch word "wel", after typing the space after the word it changes it to we'll, no way to prevent this)
- wordcompletion only shows one possible next word (no way to scroll between different candidates)
- any setting that is slightly more advanced or deviates from tradition is either hard to set or impossible
Messaging:
- no way to specify the imap-root folder
- not possible to switch SMTP servers (even the from field cannot be chosen when sending a mail, nor can mails be moved from one outbox to another) (other mail clients I tried have problems with my VPN)
- cumbersome downloading (headers only: one has to open a mail and then choose to download it, then click send/receive; why not download it when this is chosen? or even when it is openend?)
- many notifications for sms (sent notification in messaging client, sent notification from network, receipt notification) when sending messages (and one cannot mark them as "read" from the todayscreen)
- applications are not very well integrated (e.g. file explorer cannot send a file via bluetooth)
Calendar:
- always opens on day view, would like to change this to month view (but is not possible)
- day view should be scrolled down to show the start of the day (e.g. 8.00 at the top of the screen), now I have to scroll from 00.00 down before I can see stuff)
- cumbersome entry of time (esp. when entering times that deviate from the time slots)
Phone:
- no support for different call profiles (where a profile is essentially a call filter)
- when one contact has multiple numbers, the phone application only shows the last used one
Network:
- when you add a VPN server, then delete it, you can't add one with the same name (even though it has been deleted)
- wifi starts detecting all networks, and does not necessarily start with the networks one has been connected to in the past
Bluetooth:
- limited profiles
- sometimes counterintuitive
ActiveSync:
- sees the device as new every now and then (causing it to say it conflicts); I have to delete the device on my PC and let it find it all over again
Programs folder:
- is alphabetically, would be nice if one could order this to his own liking
Alarm:
- no snooze function
- unnatural way of entering time and repeat options
File explorer
- no way to view extensions of files
I've learned to live with some of these problems, but I would have expected Windows mobile to be a more mature system. I had to choose a WM5 device (so I new I had to compromise), due to the fact that I wanted to run some specific application (PocketFMS), but didn't anticipate I had to compensate this much. (of course, no of my issues is purely HTC related, but will be present on all WM5 devices)
In total, I personally consider Symbian (Series 60) to be more efficient, better customisable (one is less forced to do things one way) and (never thought I'd say this) more stable.
Jörg
hmmm.... the fact that I'm listening to mannheim steamroller over A2DP at Las Vegas airport while typing this reply on my TyTN is evidence of my disagreement with the OP. This device has done incredibly well at CES. unbelievable functionality in tough tradeshow conditions. i'm really happy with this little gizmo!
Nevermind, I really love it, too. Otherwise I wouldn't spend so much time with it.
But posting in a stable network environment (I'm on home WLAN right now) is not really a proof.
Try this when moving in a crowded area with weak 3G coverage, say on the subway. Add sensitive hardware and a mediocre provider and things go south.
It's unfortunate your having so many of these problems - my Hermes has been excellent! I haven't had any of the issues you listed. In fact, mine has only locked up once, and that was today (and I use it religiously). I've had it hard reset on it's own, but that was caused by Hackmaster. You should definitely try a ROM upgrade, if you haven't already.
At CES, I was using my TyTN on Cingular's network with 110,000 other geeks (kudos to Cingular btw... coverage was great!). Even so, my device was handing off between GSM and UMTS constantly and Cingular experienced at least one major data network meltdown that I could detect. Perhaps it was the combination of 1.35 & the 1.20 radio that made mine work so well.
The worst problem I had was A2DP, but after the first day I found out it was because so many other people had bluetooth going that there were simply not enough available frequencies to support A2DP's high bandwidth demands. All the vendors were bemoaning the fact that their A2DP stuff "just wasn't working right"....
Hey people,
Yesterday I got fed up with my iPAQ 910c, put it on craigslist and sold it for not much less than what I originally paid for it.
Mainly, the lack of Cell-ID support from HP was really annoying: all kinds of times when I wanted a quick sense of where I was from Google Maps, I'd have to wait a long time for a GPS fix and make sure I held the phone out with a clear view of the sky. Not exactly convenient. And even though Rogers is selling the iPAQ 910c on contract, HP hasn't provided an rilgsm.dll with Name Display (CNAP) support. Stupid.
That, and WM6.5 brings with it (in my opinion) features that really prefer a higher-res screen. And a directional control more advanced than a scroll wheel. And a light sensor to automatically adjust brightness (as opposed to me having the 61x/91x brightness control on hotkey, lol). And more speed.
...so I'm getting an Xperia X1.
It was fun cooking with y'all, and so I leave you in the capable hands of monte & keyx. Adios amigos!
Wow!
Sorry to lose your development skills on the 910 - I always enjoyed your ROMs.
Happy trails!
many thanks to you..
i'm still running your WM6.5 on my ipaq.
but, i'm also wondering to replacing my ipaq with xperia. how does xperia compared to ipaq 912, i just want to know from your point of view.
thx
So far it is awesome - the 800x480 screen is amazing with WM6.5, and the device seems to get both better speed and battery life than the iPAQ. That, plus the Xperia has just enough less width than the iPAQ for me to wrap my hand around when I'm carrying it, running, etc. Not only does Cell-ID provide instant estimates of my location in Google Maps (which itself looks amazing at WVGA), but GPS fix seems to take a fraction of the time it did on the iPAQ.
I can't do one-handed QWERTY typing as quickly or easily as with the iPAQ, but with two hands I don't notice much difference. The screen doesn't pick up nearly as many fingerprint smudges as my iPAQ did. And the optical trackball functions more like the little "pearl" on Blackberries, something HP should have put in the middle of that giant D-PAD.
But basically the screen is the biggest improvement: I went from seeing like 3 titanium homescreen entries on the ipaq (with WM6.5) to now seeing all of them at once. That's huge. I nearly broke even on the upgrade too - bought the iPAQ on eBay this January for like $240, sold for $200 on craigslist, and just got the Xperia from Rogers on a 3-year contract for $225.
Thankfully, there is a large ROM cooking community already in place for the Xperia, so that takes some of the pressure off. My understanding is that cooking for the HP devices is relatively easy once the tools exist; the SD-Loader isn't checking for signed ROM images so no low-level device unlocking is required. HTC phones are a different story - even the ones sold "SIM unlocked" still come with a bootloader that won't accept custom ROMs, and certain XDA gurus have to make a "HardSPL" modified bootloader before custom ROMs can be flashed. Case in point: the poor suckers with the Palm Treo Pro are still without any custom ROMs whatsoever, because the phone isn't quite popular enough to have reached somebody who can make a HardSPL (they're working on that).
Once a HardSPL exists, though, HTC ROM development tends to explode because they keep using the same underlying hardware. Thus the Xperia light sensor is the same as the one on the Touch Diamond and Touch Pro; the radio hardware is interchangeable with those phones too. Moral of the story: check out the state of ROM development before you buy.
soory 2 hear u are out of ipaq roms u had good ones
anyway good luck with your new device and try 2 keep a look 4 plastic cracks
i 4 myself like the front KB like the 6900 900 i780...
i had the ipaq 800 (data messenger) with light sensor dpad sensor very fast gps...(device generl speed slower then the 900 and have no SR )
had some htc devices with sliding hard KB but on such devices i found myself using software KB (if u sms or need somthing short u will see it 2)
the screen must be a great thing
enjoy and tnx 4 all
Good look with the new toy.
Noooooooo....how dare you betray us front facing keyboard lovers!!!
It was good having your roms and knowledge...best of luck with the Xperia!!
I'm currently waiting for a replacement 910c from Rogers right now...my USB connector stopped working Maybe I'll just replace my phone altogether...but...I must have WM, front facing keyboard, gps, wifi, and 7.2mbps dl speed
We'll see what comes out...Samsung looks like it might have a good rival
Again, many thanks and good luck!
Well, congrats on the "upgrade" - I thought someone on Rogers would for sure go for a quad-band phone, but maybe the tri-band will work well enough for you where you are.
By the way - the "cell ID" thing is being worked on, and I thought I had a quick solution involving "cell broadcast" settings in the registry. It's probably only weeks away from being fixed. Keep checking back to see if we get it right.
gfinockio said:
Well, congrats on the "upgrade" - I thought someone on Rogers would for sure go for a quad-band phone, but maybe the tri-band will work well enough for you where you are.
By the way - the "cell ID" thing is being worked on, and I thought I had a quick solution involving "cell broadcast" settings in the registry. It's probably only weeks away from being fixed. Keep checking back to see if we get it right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol I'm in downtown Toronto, but the Xperia is actually quad-band GSM (850/900/1800/1900) and tri-band UMTS (850/1900/2100). Which is exactly the same as the iPAQ.
I wish you the best of luck getting the Cell-ID thing working. I'm mostly just pissed that after all this time Inventec hasn't made a few simple changes to their radio firmware, and HP has the nerve to blame the network carrier in their documentation!
Anyway EREZYAD is right, these past few days my text entry has been split about 50-50 between the software keyboard in portrait mode and the hardware keyboard in landscape. Neither are quite as good as the iPAQ 910c, but the combination is sufficient.
so long benjaminries, never used your rom's but always sad to lose a chef
gfinockio said:
Well, congrats on the "upgrade" - I thought someone on Rogers would for sure go for a quad-band phone, but maybe the tri-band will work well enough for you where you are.
By the way - the "cell ID" thing is being worked on, and I thought I had a quick solution involving "cell broadcast" settings in the registry. It's probably only weeks away from being fixed. Keep checking back to see if we get it right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whats up with the "cell ID" issue? Did you get fixed? Can you explain whats wrong with cell ID on HP iPAQ 910c?
zmadaric said:
Whats up with the "cell ID" issue? Did you get fixed? Can you explain whats wrong with cell ID on HP iPAQ 910c?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The fact that the 910c doesn't seem to work with Google Maps "My Location" function without using GPS.
gfinockio said:
The fact that the 910c doesn't seem to work with Google Maps "My Location" function without using GPS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is corroborated by other apps like Navizon that also don't work on the HP 91x/61x.
Basically, the RIL interface specified by Microsoft has several API functions that apps are supposed to be able to call which should return an ID code that identifies the cell tower to which the phone is currently connected. As far as I can tell, the OEM (HP) is supposed to adapt firmware and corresponding WinMo driver files like rilgsm.dll from the radio manufacturer (Qualcomm) to meet Microsoft's specification; however some OEMs like HP "choose" not to implement these APIs such that requests by apps for the Cell ID return a constant error code.
There appear to be two alternative methods of retrieving the cell ID that might have given us hope for HP: (1) broadcast channels and (2) serial requests. But the first option is unhelpful in North America where GSM carriers don't use broadcast channels, and the second option (when I tested it) didn't seem to work either - basically there are a number of direct modem commands that can be sent over COM ports to ask for the cell ID. The results of my testing suggested that the problem lies, at least in part, within the radio firmware itself - perhaps provided to HP by their main manufacturer, Inventec.
To me, the fact that HP/Inventec didn't fix these problems - despite mass outcry by users - suggests that while HP is still patching up what they can on the software side (releasing ROM updates for keyboard and sound issues), whoever created the radio firmware (Inventec?) has sort of walked away, or at least has no stake in keeping existing customers happy.
What the xda-developers community knows about and is able to do with actual HTC hardware, by comparison, is huge...
You did the best bro. It is nearly 2010 and I believe that any other phone after that time should have a BIG scren.