Database Users

How GPRS works.

I have recently been told the following about the way carriers figure out GPRS charges. This is something they were apparently told by someone at O2 UK, but I thought I would check whether it is or is not BS....
Since GPRS is an always on service the network doesn't monitor when you use it. THE PHONE DOES. The phone/sim card records information on data transferred and then once in a while uploads that information to the O2 network this is why your GPRS charges may appear on your bill way after you actually used it.
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Now this raises two issues in my mind.
1) If your phone does the calculations and your phone is hackable, why do people not get free data?
2) This doesn't agree with what I know about networks and how to use them. Surely my phone goes onto a carriers network and gets a private IP, will navigate through a NAT to pick up my email or browse the web and network management tools on the carriers network wil monitor what traffic I cause and this will be polled at the end of the day, thereby accounting for the delay.
Which leads me to a final question - if I am right and the quote is incorrect, how are IPs allocated? Are they static to accounts? (They are private so the carriers could have 256^3 entries) Or are they dynamic? (Because they are lazy and would rather try to update tables as old dial-up ISPs used to do).
Any feedback and/or corrections greatly appreciated.

I can't say one way or another with certainty, but my logic agrees with your conclusions. Like you said, someone would have hacked it by now.
Aside from that, I have a couple different phones that I frequently switch my SIM between. What if I use a bunch of data on phone A, then swap my SIM over to phone B, and leave phone A off for weeks or months? Or for that matter, what if I am using one phone with two different SIMs? Say I use a bunch of data on SIM A which has a data plan, then swap in SIM B with no data plan, and then the phone decides to report my day's usage to the network?
I have to think that the phone company tracks data usage my IP. When you request data, the network must have to identify your SIM as being attached to an account with a data plan. Even if they assign a different IP for each session, that IP would still be tied to your SIM. I have to think that they meter your data by your IP address.
If anyone knows for sure (or can poke holes in my logic) I'd love to hear it.

i believe this is the old case of not always being the best and brigtest who are in customer contact support
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Packet_Radio_Service
there are countless cases of support and sales people speaking out their rear end
it would be crazy to put the phone itself in charge of keeping track of what was downloaded
when it's not the case of normal phone calls or sms's or mms's (which also use gprs)
or old analog modems for pc's which is the closest thing one can compare gprs with
could also be something he said to get people to buy grps monitoring software rather then bothering him about their usage or asking for them to supply a service for users to see
and maybe even limit their usage and cost the company a bit of overusage income

How is AT&T Detecting my phone?

How is AT&T Detecting my phone?
In my online account management you can select your phone type. Currently I have "AT&T 8525" selected (which is my phone of course). When I go to select "My Device is not listed" or something else, it will remain selected for a while, then when I log in sometime later, "AT&T 8525" is selected again.
How is AT&T figuring my phone type out? What kind of information about my phone is being automatically sent out? Is there a way to block this, or even spoof it?
Is it possible that at&t is just guessing?
I'm using WM6 w/ HardSPL loaded.

I wouldn't sweat it dude, I've had mt 8525 since June and AT&T still has my phone listed as a V3 Razor but, they have my kids phones listed right. OH, I havn't had a razor for almost 2 years.

stesul411 said:
I wouldn't sweat it dude, I've had mt 8525 since June and AT&T still has my phone listed as a V3 Razor but, they have my kids phones listed right. OH, I havn't had a razor for almost 2 years.
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Same. I've had about 3-4 phones since the Razr, mine still says razr

Yeah, it took AT&T three or four months to update mine when I first got the 8525. Once it even had me listed as using one of those old Nokia bricks for like two weeks, then went back to the 8525! Wierd.
Anyway, I could be wrong, but I believe your IMEI is what tells AT&T what kind of phone your using. It just seems to take AT&T's system a while to play catch up when you switch phones.
...and changing/altering your IMEI is a dangerous topic on this board, as it is an illegal practice in most countries.
Anynody else know of how they detect your phone model?

dzelaya18 said:
Anynody else know of how they detect your phone model?
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they have spies......watching you, all the time.......
the IMEI is right. that's how they do it. and the spies help sometimes too

Yes at&t can tell what IMEI is what phone. For that matter most everyone can find it, if you have the IMEI, on the Net if you look hard enough. If you go into a store and register your V3 IMEI on the account the phone should change in the Online managment page. But with the implimentation of their newest system, D.E.R(Device Eligibility Restrictions), they can tell what IMEI is being used with what phone number, even though it may not reflect on the "Online Managment" Site. More importanly, D.E.R restricts certian packages to be allowed for what IMEI is registered on the account.
For example if you have a V3's IMEI registered on your account, then the Media Net package for 15$ unlimited usage will show up and the PDA Connect for 30$ will not. This works in the oposite manor as well. This makes it harder for us to use the lower priced packages. Eventually if D.E.R catches the fact that you are using a PDA phone with the 15$ package or any of the other "Non-PDA" Packages, It may take some time, but the package WILL fall off and credits will not be given out, or atleast that is what i have come to understand.
Hope that clears it all up. I do work for at&t Mobility, im at the bottom of the totem poll (Agent), but one of my larger business accounts has already run into issues with D.E.R and credits were not given out.

I knew it! ...and my suspicions about the spies have been comfirmed... ^.-

Fun With AT&T

Some strange events happened to me yesterday. I've had my g1 since december of 2008. I bought it off someone at craigslist because I am on a AT&T family plan and didn't want to switch carriers. I unlocked the phone soon after and have been using my phone happily since then. I also do no have a data plan and make sure to remove all APN information after each flash.
I have been happily flashing roms going from 1.1 to 1.5 and to 1.6. Lately I was using "NonSense Cupcake revolution" but yesterday I decided to update to cyanogen 5. Right after the upgrade, I got a text from AT&T congratulating me on my new smartphone and telling me that I now need a data plan. 10 minutes later we found out that AT&T deactivated all our sim cards and none of my family were able to make phone calls.
Does anyone have any idea what the heck happened? How did AT&T know all of a sudden I was using a smartphone. Is there something about android 2.1 that raises a red flag? I really DO NOT want a data plan and will rather stop using my g1 than pay $350+/year on one. My current plan is to give them my old Nokia IMEI when I get my new SIM card and then pop it into my g1 after downgrading back to the 1.5 rom I was using.
Thanks for reading and I look forward to hearing your ideas.
Edit: New theory; found this elsewhere:
"Note: If an AT&T customer puts their SIM card into a Nexus One device, our smartphone data requirement policy and control rules will apply; this allows customers to enjoy the benefit of using data services from AT&T. The following welcome message will be delivered:
Your Smartphone is active! A data plan is required and if omitted, will be added to your account. For details, see your sales rep or att.com/smartphoneplans."
So AT&T thinks I put my sim in a nexus one so I think if I downgrade I should be fine. Any way to make a 2.1 rom look like a 1.6 one? build.prop maybe? I cant test anything myself until I get my new sim.

Call them and tell them you put your sim card in a borrowed phone lol. Push a build.prop from any 1.6 to change your id. For fun, open the build.prop with notepad and change g1 to Nokia 1100. If you don't use data they can't charge you

mejorguille said:
Call them and tell them you put your sim card in a borrowed phone lol. Push a build.prop from any 1.6 to change your id. For fun, open the build.prop with notepad and change g1 to Nokia 1100. If you don't use data they can't charge you
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Ha we think alike; I told them exactly that yesterday. What value of the build.prop would I need to change to make it look like a nokia?

There you go=p I just changed every time it said dream, htc, or passion and changed it to nokia=p I don't think that market will work right though. You could try pushing the build.prop from a 1.6 build to cm5 but then i don't think video would work, so you will probably need to merge the 1.6 build.prop with the 2.1 build.prop.
Rename to build.prop and push to /system/

mejorguille said:
There you go=p I just changed every time it said dream, htc, or passion and changed it to nokia=p I don't think that market will work right though. You could try pushing the build.prop from a 1.6 build to cm5 but then i don't think video would work, so you will probably need to merge the 1.6 build.prop with the 2.1 build.prop.
Rename to build.prop and push to /system/
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Thanks dude. I'll be sure to report back on Tuesday or Wednesday and tell you guys what happened.

Odd. I never had this issue.
I've been using my G1 with AT&T for some time now.
The update to 2.1 (CyanogenMod) didn't result in any variation for me.
Of course, I am using AT&T's "dumb-phone" unlimited internet... even still, there appears to be no indication on their side that I have a smart phone let alone a Nexus One.

Same with me. I am also using the $15 dumb phone data plan and a switch to CM5 did not trigger any notification from AT&T's side.

Quick update: I wussed out and flashed the backup I made of the 1.5 rom I was using. I didn't feel like risking getting "caught" again. I got to play with cyanogen's new rom for a few days and while great it did not drastically give me anything I didn't have before. I ended up giving them an old nokia imei as my phone and putting the new sim in my g1 shortly after. No texts forcing me to get a smartphone plan yet. I doubt I'm the only one that will have this problem so I'll just give a warning:
If you have AT&T with a g1 without any kind of data plan, after updating to android 2.1 they might try to force one on you.
Thanks for the help and ideas. I'll post again if they try to get me to get a plan again.

If AT&T actually offered 3G coverage in my area (a major city, imo) I might consider it. Otherwise, they can polish my knob.

This doesn't have anything to do with the version of android you are running. They can't detect that. They CAN detect your IMEI and compare it to the database to determine if it is a smartphone or not.
Alternatively, the thing tried to connect to a data service when you plugged your card into it, and they looked at the data and determined that it was consistent with a smartphone, i.e., dumbphones don't try to connect to google on port 5228.
Very likely the reason this happened so suddenly is one of the two things;
1) it corresponds to the end of their infinite data plans.
2) it corresponds to you "activating" your google account on your phone.

lbcoder said:
This doesn't have anything to do with the version of android you are running. They can't detect that. They CAN detect your IMEI and compare it to the database to determine if it is a smartphone or not.
Alternatively, the thing tried to connect to a data service when you plugged your card into it, and they looked at the data and determined that it was consistent with a smartphone, i.e., dumbphones don't try to connect to google on port 5228.
Very likely the reason this happened so suddenly is one of the two things;
1) it corresponds to the end of their infinite data plans.
2) it corresponds to you "activating" your google account on your phone.
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Interesting. I'm not sure about the IMEI thing since it is a t-mobile phone runnning on an AT&T network. I just find it too much of a coincidence that the problem occured right after updating so I doubt its that. They also haven't reported anything since putting my new sim in my phone 2 days ago.
I guess you're right about them not knowing what version of android I'm running but there must be something in 2.1 that raised a red flag. I deleted an APN file from /system/ before I even booted the rom for the first time so I don't even think its possible that it tried to connect to them. Strange stuff.

d00m said:
Interesting. I'm not sure about the IMEI thing since it is a t-mobile phone runnning on an AT&T network.
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You don't think that ATT can read the IMEI from a phone sold by tmobile? I can guarantee that they can. Or if you're worried about ATT being able to link up an IMEI to a type of phone... they can link the IMEI to a lot more than that.... I'm not sure if you realize this, but the IMEI exists ***FOR A REASON*** and it isn't just to look pretty....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_Allocation_Code
wikipedia said:
The Type Allocation Code (TAC) is a portion of the 15-digit IMEI code used to uniquely identify wireless devices.
The Type Allocation Code is an 8-digit number that identifies a particular model (and often revision) of wireless telephone for use on a GSM, UMTS, or other IMEI-supporting wireless network.
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http://www.radioraiders.com/gsm-IMEI-TAC.php
I just find it too much of a coincidence that the problem occured right after updating so I doubt its that.
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The coincidence is that you happen to be updating your phone when ATT happened to be changing their policies.
They also haven't reported anything since putting my new sim in my phone 2 days ago.
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That's because they probably do it cyclically, or they put your account into a freeze period after a manual adjustment.
It may ALSO have related to rebooting the device -- connecting to their network that first time after they initiated a policy change may have triggered a routine.
I guess you're right about them not knowing what version of android I'm running but there must be something in 2.1 that raised a red flag. I deleted an APN file from /system/ before I even booted the rom for the first time so I don't even think its possible that it tried to connect to them. Strange stuff.
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Nope. Nothing special in 2.1. In fact, it would be quite a security violation if it were to broadcast itself out to them.

So I guess it's only a matter of time before they detect my g1. Pitty since I was using my phone for over a year before all this happened. It's weird that they make you read out your IMEI to them while activating a sim card as if they can't see it. I'm just going to keep using my phone as is for as long as I can. The vibration on it no longer functions so I won't be supper crushed if I have to change phones to avoid a data plan.
I have 3-4 friends who have t-mobile branded blackberrys and android phones without a data plan on AT&T. Our school has wifi everywhere so it is truly unneeded. I guess their "check" cycle is fairly slow as none of them have had problems yet. Maybe the process isn't automated yet.
I really do appreciate the information although it's not exactly what I wanted to hear.
edit: http://androidandme.com/2010/06/carriers/att-introduces-new-lower-priced-tiered-data-plans-june-7th/
This isn't terrible. I can always do this but there's no rush I guess.
edit 2: Is it possible that an attempted apn connection (data) is what caused the detection? I said I deleted a file but looking back on it, it may not have been the correct one to prevent connections.

d00m said:
edit: http://androidandme.com/2010/06/carriers/att-introduces-new-lower-priced-tiered-data-plans-june-7th/
This isn't terrible. I can always do this but there's no rush I guess.
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Yep, that's what I was referring to.
edit 2: Is it possible that an attempted apn connection (data) is what caused the detection? I said I deleted a file but looking back on it, it may not have been the correct one to prevent connections.
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It is possible.
Note that the rep you read the IMEI out to may NOT have had a read-out of the device model ID. In fact, doing that might freak some people out -- you know, the whole big brother knows too much thing.

Finally some resolution. Turns out a woman stole my mom's identity and went to a wal-mart and bought 5 blackberries under our AT&T account (probably to sell on the black market). Our SIMs where soon deactivated like I said in the OP and the smart phone text had to do with those phones rather than my phone. Upgrading to android 2.1 had NOTHING to do with it (of course). It was all just a coincidence. The strange thing is that AT&T never told us about these new numbers, even when we were reactivating our new SIMs, and we found out when checking our monthly bill.
Now we have to go to the wal-mart where the people committed fraud and try to find out who did it and file a police report. We might end up being charged $400 in deactivation fees. Well that's how it all went down. Funny. I upgraded to android 2.1 at 4:30 on that day and booted my phone at the EXACT moment they bought the fraud blackberries. Ugh. I know this is largely unrelated to android or my g1 but I thought I would let you guys know in case you were curious.

Sorry to hear about that. Your mom might have to pay the fees but as long as the individual(s) in question are found, you can always take civil action.
Surprised no one brought this up but, ATT and all the other services can't turn your service off just because you're using a smartphone and don't have a data plan. That is an optional addition to your monthly bill and as long as you are not using data, they can't charge you or force you to buy the data.
If you're dumb enough to sign a two year contract that requires a data charge monthly for the duration of the contract..well, yeah.

If the phones were added by someone other than the account owner, the service provider has no legal grounds to hold you accountable for it. Fact is that this was a failure in THEIR security and/or walmart's. The service provider should have some procedure to make sure that the person adding the phones is actually who they claim to be.
If not, then you sue ATT AND WALMART for this.

Worst thing about the Xoom... Verizon

Really, I have never had a harder time setting up an on-line account with any technology vendor for the simple purpose of paying a bill.
This is primarily rooted around Verizon's insistance on sending text messages for any activity to a device that does not accept them.
After two requests still awaiting for that snail mail that gives me a pin number so I can actually register on-line.
And all I see is grief in the future, whenever you want to do something, Verizon insists on sending a text. Sheesh.

mjpacheco said:
Really, I have never had a harder time setting up an on-line account with any technology vendor for the simple purpose of paying a bill.
This is primarily rooted around Verizon's insistance on sending text messages for any activity to a device that does not accept them.
After two requests still awaiting for that snail mail that gives me a pin number so I can actually register on-line.
And all I see is grief in the future, whenever you want to do something, Verizon insists on sending a text. Sheesh.
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What the tech did for me, was activate a test phone on the account, then have the text message sent to that phone.
Once I used that temporary password to set up the online account, he took the test phone off the account.
I had them waive my activation fee for my troubles, but that was back when they weren't automatically waiving them anyway.

gbenj said:
What the tech did for me, was activate a test phone on the account, then have the text message sent to that phone.
Once I used that temporary password to set up the online account, he took the test phone off the account.
I had them waive my activation fee for my troubles, but that was back when they weren't automatically waiving them anyway.
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same issue.. dumb setup.. you would think they would have another way , not to mention, what they need to do is when you setup your tablet, they give you a pin in the box or set it up with a backup phone number.
there is a million ways to do it., its dumb that they forgot this setup
but then, I am still curious why they do not set these DATA only setups to NOT have pohone numbers. we all know that the US is running out of numbers, what is the use of the number?! Give me an account number, or hell, just a IP address or something that does not waste a phone number that I cant use.

eatonjb said:
same issue.. dumb setup.. you would think they would have another way , not to mention, what they need to do is when you setup your tablet, they give you a pin in the box or set it up with a backup phone number.
there is a million ways to do it., its dumb that they forgot this setup
but then, I am still curious why they do not set these DATA only setups to NOT have pohone numbers. we all know that the US is running out of numbers, what is the use of the number?! Give me an account number, or hell, just a IP address or something that does not waste a phone number that I cant use.
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This is a phone wireless provider. Initially the data was setup for a means of phones getting data. So built on top of that principal in order to communicate with the Verizon NOC your unique identifier is actually your phone number, thats how their system evolved and it would be silly to rewrite their entire setup so tablets, a small percentage of their devies on their network, don't have to have a unique number that isn't a phone number.

sleeplessninja said:
This is a phone wireless provider. Initially the data was setup for a means of phones getting data. So built on top of that principal in order to communicate with the Verizon NOC your unique identifier is actually your phone number, thats how their system evolved and it would be silly to rewrite their entire setup so tablets, a small percentage of their devies on their network, don't have to have a unique number that isn't a phone number.
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I would accept that, but have you seen the iPad 2? You can signup for and pre-pay data ON THE DEVICE. This is on verizon, they have it setup already, they just didn't want to for the xoom.

Really man..?
mjpacheco said:
Really, I have never had a harder time setting up an on-line account with any technology vendor for the simple purpose of paying a bill.
This is primarily rooted around Verizon's insistance on sending text messages for any activity to a device that does not accept them.
After two requests still awaiting for that snail mail that gives me a pin number so I can actually register on-line.
And all I see is grief in the future, whenever you want to do something, Verizon insists on sending a text. Sheesh.
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Click to collapse
Last time I checked the moto xoom was not a phone. We have stores for people that cant handle the internet.
The text message feature is provisioned onto any and all devices, including aircards, its just the way the system was programmed pre-tablet'age.

Bunch of crap, I am currently waiting for my third PIN number to arrive by mail as the last two didnt work, I even called them and had THEM do it to make sure I wasnt screwing something up. I really wish I was inside of my 14day window or Id take it back and get the wifi and tether to my EVO and be done with it.

AJMetal87 said:
Last time I checked the moto xoom was not a phone. We have stores for people that cant handle the internet.
The text message feature is provisioned onto any and all devices, including aircards, its just the way the system was programmed pre-tablet'age.
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it might not make calls, but it is a device, I understand what he's talking about
but, lets face it, with the decent amount of tablets coming out, data cards, and other hardware and devices, getting rid of the number system might be advantagious in the near future.. but then, I actualy would not mind this thing having a number to text me too. but then with the costs, no way!
/rant.

AJMetal87 said:
Last time I checked the moto xoom was not a phone. We have stores for people that cant handle the internet.
The text message feature is provisioned onto any and all devices, including aircards, its just the way the system was programmed pre-tablet'age.
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Don't be a dork. This has to do with setting up a Verizon account on the internet, not with any one persons skill in using the internet. During the process there is a step "we will now text you your PIN", which you need the pin in order to complete the setup so you have access to your account on-line.
This is where Verizon drops the ball. After looking through the "I didn't / cannot get a text", a reference is made that it will be snail mailed to you if you do not complete the registration in 24 hours.
Apparently 24 hours actually means two weeks, which is how long it took me to get the PIN, which arrived today after my original posting, which of course happened after I have called them again and they have generated a new one which will probably take two more weeks, and this one is presumably invalid.

sleeplessninja said:
This is a phone wireless provider. Initially the data was setup for a means of phones getting data. So built on top of that principal in order to communicate with the Verizon NOC your unique identifier is actually your phone number, thats how their system evolved and it would be silly to rewrite their entire setup so tablets, a small percentage of their devies on their network, don't have to have a unique number that isn't a phone number.
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A company is not defined by how they handle routine matters, but by how they handle exceptions.
It should not require rewriting the entire setup, the process should be smart enough to know when a device is not text capable, and provide an alternative flow... like maybe an e-mail?

gbenj said:
What the tech did for me, was activate a test phone on the account, then have the text message sent to that phone.
Once I used that temporary password to set up the online account, he took the test phone off the account.
I had them waive my activation fee for my troubles, but that was back when they weren't automatically waiving them anyway.
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That is a good tech who knows a work around. Unfortunately I waited a day or two before trying to set up my access to my on-line acount.

Hate VZW? In a word: Sprint. I bought mine a week ago. After getting confirmation of the sprint version, this one is boxed up and being returned. Can you find anyone willing to purchase your Xoom and transfer it over to another guy?

you could also go the Mifi way.
Virgin has a great deal. 10 days and 100mb for $10, or unlimited for a month for for $40 and no contracts, no nothing!
I still have the 20$ Verizon plan for now, just for the convenence, and since I use mostly Wifi, I can either use that, or call them up for one month to give me a GB of bandwitch.
but , no matter how i look at it, I think Verizon and Sprint, and T-Mo AND AT&T prices are CRAZy, exp if you dont use it all that much.

As sad as this may sound, I found that there is no speed difference between Verizon 3G and using my Nexus S wifi hotpot. So was kinda regretting getting the 3G version.

It took me about five minutes to do it in person

Theoretical Question: Stealing mobile data from T-Mobile without a data plan?

I'm sure I'm not the first one to ask/wonder this, nor will I be the last, but I was curious if anyone here knew of a way that you could (theoretically) hack a free data plan from T-Mobile or any other wireless carrier? I assume you would somehow have to hack into the company's servers and change your account settings or something, or would it be somehow possible to trick the network into thinking you were a data plan subscriber (without using a stolen SIM card of course)? Just curious to see what everyone thought, I DO NOT plan on attempting this, just fyi to any forum mods.
-bobofosho123

I think there is a way... Search on craigslist houston, texas and I found a guy can do it for $130. He said it will be on a different sim card.

There used to be a way to surf the web (on your T-Mobile phone) using MMS....I just pay for my data....it's MUCH EASIER....not cheaper, but easier...and ETHICAL
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using xda premium

Possible, yes. Many have been doing this since like ever because they either have the talent or has found someone that can. It's like hacked satellite, etc.

garychencool said:
Possible, yes. Many have been doing this since like ever because they either have the talent or has found someone that can. It's like hacked satellite, etc.
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I understand how one could steal cable or satellite, i.e. with cable you simply buy a decoder box and hook the coax up from a neighbor and with satellite you just buy your own and blah blah. But with cell phone internet, if the network doesn't recognize your device or sim card as being registered with the network I don't think you could do it. The only way I could think of would be to hack into T-Mo's servers and change your account settings or to use a stolen sim card with a data plan on it. But then again, I might be wrong. Do u know the technical details of how it would be done though? Btw I'm a Samsung Vibrant running CM7, not sure how that would affect the hacking process, just fyi.

Well this is different from hacking satellite because allvyour doing is receiving the satellite data, your probably not going to any. For wifi, all you need is a password. For Mobile cell towers, we'll you would indeed need the simple card to work where a plan must be set for SIM card and the account associated with it. Think of a sim card being your devices mac address. Of course you can spoof SIMON cards. But you would need an account with Internet in it. You could hack, do that stuff, and set the account to prepaid where the balance is thousands of dollars but that would raise too many alarms. Either way, it's possible and the phone companies are not stupid (anymore).

I actually did this on my nokia 5530 XpressMusic back before they upgraded their servers. Somehow i got data for free, some guy actually told me that first gen iphones back then worked with free data as well. Now the servers were fixed and no more free data