Hello,
as here in Austria the market leader Mobilkom Austria is opening up HSDPA *NOW* I'd be keen to know if the HTC Universal is technically able to use this advanced 3G coding scheme with just an update of the radio firmware!
This question also goes to anyone from HTC, who is surely also reading here.
I think this question can be ultimately answered by yes or no.
Anyway, my thanks in advance.
HSDPA is a pimped up version of UMTS and is backwards compatible with UMTS. HSDPA supports 1.6Mbit while UMTS supports 384Kbits. Any Universal device that connects to the HSDPA network will connect at 384Kps, the maximum speed that is technically possible for a Universal device.
However, as other companies such as T-Mobile Netherlands have done, they *may* limit their UMTS connection speeds to 64kbps for cheap flat fee subscriptions and 384kbps for full price UMTS subscriptions. What they would do with HSDPA subscritions I do not know.
So, NO the Universal devices will not be able to be upgraded to HSDPA, since this would require a hardware modification, not a software upgrade.
but, YES, the Universal will be able to connect to HSDPA networks, but only at UMTS speeds.
Thanks Wiz for your swift (only 10mins after my posting) and concrete reply.
The strategy of T-Mobile NL is interesting. Didn't know about that.
I'm not sure I agree, I think technically it may be possible that a radio upgrade could support HSDPA (I hope so) as various other vendors have announced software upgrades. (eg Acer on their notebook range)
Afaik UMTS and HSDPA are use the same base technology.
wamatt said:
I'm not sure I agree, I think technically it may be possible that a radio upgrade could support HSDPA (I hope so) as various other vendors have announced software upgrades. (eg Acer on their notebook range)
Afaik UMTS and HSDPA are use the same base technology.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am afraid you're wrong there. HSDPA support has two components. A hardware component and a software component. While manufacturers may decide to add HSDPA hardware support in their devices from the beginning, they often (may) decide to wait providing the accompanying software support until Telcos have provided their requirements in protocols etc.
Since the Universal devices have no hardware support to accomodate HSDPA, a software upgrade would be impossible (and useless)
I guess it could roughly be compared to the days the faster modems were coming out, and all the older PCs turned out to have too slow serial ports and too small buffers (UART chips) to accomodate the higher transfer speeds. There, the hardware support was not available either, so while you could go and connect V-anything to your PC, all you would get was corrupted dataflows
Wiz said:
Afaik UMTS and HSDPA are use the same base technology.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since the Universal devices have no hardware support to accomodate HSDPA, a software upgrade would be impossible (and useless)
[/quote]
That is indeed a pity since the Universal successor (with HSDPA) is only planned for 2007 release and HSDPA will be available next week where I stay.
Well, since HTC are currently struggling even to get UMTS support sorted, HSDPA for the time being will remain out of reach for now .... sorry
hspda
hspda in the USA will never work USA uses the 1900mhz frequency for HSPDA the universal uses the 2100mhz band
Wiz said:
Well, since HTC are currently struggling even to get UMTS support sorted, HSDPA for the time being will remain out of reach for now .... sorry
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Colonel, SiliconS & Gajet please note.....
Even though I am not using the latest ROM but I am using the radio 1.06.00 ROM the UMTS aspect seems fine (okay not good with weak signals compared to my O2 3G datacard) on my XDA Exec.
the universal does not support hdspa as it has a MTM6250 chipset. Perhaps future universals will be made with the MTM6260 which does. rgds:
http://www.cdmatech.com/docs_details/chip_tool/chip_results.jsp?chip=29&chip=27&chip=26
HSDPA and the UNIVERSAL ?
AT&T/Cingular are in the process of rolling out their HSDPA network and a handful of cities are using it; NOW is the Universal capable of this....I asked a similar question about the UMTS 1900 MHz being activated so it could be used in the states; Granted I was given some very good replies but I am still curious. Over the past week I have been talking to some other engineers in my field and have found that a great number of things are possible with the Universal, it has the architecture to support this, SUPPOSEDLY ! Now lets look at UMTS as a whole; then HSDPA ! HSDPA is a software upgrade to existing UMTS software, that's all ! SO is it possible that we can have HSDPA on the Universal with an upgrade to the radio stack, I think YES !...and the bands should also be able to be activate, current UMTS 2100 MHz to 1900 MHz so it becomes dual band...the other is the GSM 850 band ! That apparently can be activated !...HOW is the big questions....Most of the HTC is limited by software; not hardware...its existing hardware has been built with scalability in mind...I just hope that some one can figure out the radio stack updates to facilitate this functionality !
PabloPicasso - no and no
universal is limited to 2100mhz and non-HSPCA. look at my link above
colonel said:
PabloPicasso - no and no
universal is limited to 2100mhz and non-HSPCA. look at my link above
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
according to your above link, the uni does not support SDIO !!! but in reality it does
Re: HSDPA and the UNIVERSAL ?
PabloPicasso said:
I asked a similar question about the UMTS 1900 MHz being activated so it could be used in the states;
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just wanted to make a comment on this point. From what I know, which in all rights is limited, UTMS standard is characterised by two channels. An upstream and a downstream. In order to meet UTMS specifications the following would have to be met:
"The specific frequency bands originally defined by the UMTS standard are 1885-2025 MHz for uplink and 2110-2200 MHz for downlink."
This means that when North American countries move to this standard, wouldn't the Universal work 'as-is'?
I obtained this information from wikipedia by the by.
Lirathal
Related
Hi all!
T-Mobile is working on their new, so called: "HSDPA-Ready Network". And since I'm having the T-Mobile provider in about 2 months, this really sounded interesting.
I suppose you all know HSDPA is high-speed (1mbit+) internet, but for as far as I know the Qtek 9100 doesn't have HSDPA support.
Maybe a stupid question, but will this support ever come? Like a firmware upgrade, or is this HSDPA-function really in the hardware?
Thanks in advance!
Rik
Like UMTS (which HSDPA is an upgrade of), it needs specific radio hardware, so no dice for our Wizard. The HTC Hermes, successor of the Wizard, will support UMTS and HSDPA.
Ah, thats a shame...
Thanks anyway!
also don't expect 1mb/s from the service in the first couple of years until they get some competition from others. it is like cabl modems. from day 1 they could go 18MB/s but because DSL couldn't compete they never opened up the extra bandwidth. Cingular set theirs to operate on average just above that of Verizon's EVDO network. i.e. 300-500Kb/s. still 3-5 times the speed we get now with lower latency, but no 1mb/s either.
Koksie said:
Like UMTS (which HSDPA is an upgrade of), it needs specific radio hardware, so no dice for our Wizard. The HTC Hermes, successor of the Wizard, will support UMTS and HSDPA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
with the hermes will it support us, tmo and cing, frequencies of hsdpa. i know that the hsdpa network, like gsm, can operate at different frequencies so i was just wondering if the planned rollout of the tmo and cing networks will follow the same frequency requirements as the rest of the world...
joecartoon22 said:
with the hermes will it support us, tmo and cing, frequencies of hsdpa. i know that the hsdpa network, like gsm, can operate at different frequencies so i was just wondering if the planned rollout of the tmo and cing networks will follow the same frequency requirements as the rest of the world...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you are correct in that the EU's freq is different than ours for UMTS. I can't remember the freq's off hand though. it is annoying that this happens so often.... here's to hoping that world phones remain world phones even for umts freqs.
In europe it runs on the 2100 Mhz band, in the USA on 850 or 1900 Mhz
so it would make sense fo the phones to work world wide since the GSM used both of the us frequencies and in EU they have to add the 2100 freq.... again here's to hoping.
since this is supposedly quad band would you think that being so it would support the us version of HSDPA?
the wizard will never do hsdpa as it can't do UMTS which is the basis of hsdpa. HTC Hermes is the wizard replacement that does hsdpa.
Are our Universals compatible with the new T-Mobile 3G network in the US? Ive searched the internet, some say no, others say yes....
ATLDON said:
Are our Universals compatible with the new T-Mobile 3G network in the US? Ive searched the internet, some say no, others say yes....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I don´t know in USA, but in México with my Uni I can´t connect to any 3G network as Universal has only for Europe and Asia networks, I think is the same for your country, shame...
orb3000 said:
Well I don´t know in USA, but in México with my Uni I can´t connect to any 3G network as Universal has only for Europe and Asia networks, I think is the same for your country, shame...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Interesting.......no tweaks?
Just have to see....3G won't be available in my area until the beginning of the year anyway
UPDATE:
T-Mobile 3G works on my I-Mate Jasjar in the Jacksonville Florida area. The only adjustments I had to make was a minor MMS settings change.
Anybody in the northwest US able to connect to T-Mobile's 3G network?
I try to force my band to WCDMA and specify the UMTS freq as 2100, but then it simply doesn't seem to want to register with the network. When I set it to auto, it appears to simply be using GPRS.
Somewhat related, anybody know of a way to force displaying an icon indicating EDGE vs default GPRS connection?
Edit: I just recalled that there's no EDGE support on the Uni, unless I'm mistaken, so disregard that...
Edit (again): So if I'm understanding this properly... The Uni only operates on UMTS/WCDMA/whatever 2100, not 1700, which T-Mobile US uses. It was designed for uk/other 3G usage, not future US 3G usage. So we've got 3G support outside the US, but as far as I can tell - we shouldn't be able to use 3G in the US, at least on T-Mobile's network, since they're using 1700 mhz band/AWS range, and the 2100 mhz band used elsewhere is not compatible. I THINK. I'm honestly just learning about this sort of thing now as I go, despite having had my Uni for a while and having known about T-Mobile rolling out 3G coverage for some time.
ATLDON said:
UPDATE:
T-Mobile 3G works on my I-Mate Jasjar in the Jacksonville Florida area. The only adjustments I had to make was a minor MMS settings change.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could you give some more details on this?
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the deal is basically, as postulated by orb3000 - no 3G for US Universal users.
I was told by a T-Mobile rep on the phone that if I can connect to 1700 or 2100 mhz band, I should be able to use 3G... So I wonder... Huh.
GRiM_BoB said:
I was told by a T-Mobile rep on the phone that if I can connect to 1700 or 2100 mhz band, I should be able to use 3G... So I wonder... Huh.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ive heard not all areas have 3G on both bands. Probably your area doesnt have 2100 mhz yet.
ATLDON said:
Ive heard not all areas have 3G on both bands. Probably your area doesnt have 2100 mhz yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So can you confirm if T-Mobile uses 1700/2100 as:
1700 down/2100 up
1700 voice/2100 data
1700 OR 2100?
Because I've seen a lot of different things saying different things. =/
Incidentally, please go to http://www.dslreports.com/mspeed and tell me what speed you get on your phone.
GRiM_BoB said:
So can you confirm if T-Mobile uses 1700/2100 as:
1700 down/2100 up
1700 voice/2100 data
1700 OR 2100?
Because I've seen a lot of different things saying different things. =/
Incidentally, please go to http://www.dslreports.com/mspeed and tell me what speed you get on your phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
T-Mobile uses 1700 AND 2100 mhz bands....sent and recieved data ARE NOT SPLIT between the two bands.....voice and data ARE NOT split between bands.
Ill check my speed tonight when I get off work....
I can see the difference between 3G and GPRS though. I have a HTC Wizard that supports EDGE, and my Imate JasJar is only slightly faster than my Wizard. My girlfriend has the new Mobile G1 and her 3G speed run rings around my Imate JasJar internet speed this is probably so because the age of our Universals.
3G Coverage U.S 2100 Frequency With The Univerisal
ATLDON said:
T-Mobile uses 1700 AND 2100 mhz bands....sent and recieved data ARE NOT SPLIT between the two bands.....voice and data ARE NOT split between bands.
Ill check my speed tonight when I get off work....
I can see the difference between 3G and GPRS though. I have a HTC Wizard that supports EDGE, and my Imate JasJar is only slightly faster than my Wizard. My girlfriend has the new Mobile G1 and her 3G speed run rings around my Imate JasJar internet speed this is probably so because the age of our Universals.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have a Qtek 9000 and am waiting for the 3G coverage for my area with T-Mobile which should be in the spring of 2009. Over the past few years I have done a great deal of research on this and have also spoken to very knowledgeable Tier 3 T-Mobile staff that are familiar with this and this is what they told me. The universal will work on the 2100 frequency with T-Mobile. T-Mobile will be using the 1700 & 2100 frequency bands in the U.S. for 3G frequency. I know when I visited my relatives in Germany in 2004 Year in the summer as I can speak, read & write German as good as English even though I am first generation in the U.S. which I visit my relatives every 5 years and due to visit them in the summer of 2009 year. The 2100 band was already released in the spring of 2004 year in Germany. But since T-Mobile has only certain cities available that have the 3G coverage in the U.S. which is spotty at this time. Since the T-Mobile G1 was deployed in October this should make the rollout faster in the U.S. for the 1700 & 2100 mhz frequency. Can you please confirm on your I-mate Jasjar on what your 3G speeds are? They should be at least 384 k.p.s. It is also nice to know that the send & receive data, voice & data are not slit between the two bands of 1700 & 2100 mhz frequency.
MobileSpeedTest.com
533.35 KB/sec
Park and ATLDON, thanks for all the info - this is all very good to know, and great news for US Universal users. I'll just have to wait for 3G 2100 to be active here in Portland, then.
Oh, and ATLDON - one more question. Under your Phone Settings, where you can select GSM and UMTS band and Network Type, did you set it to Auto, or force UMTs, or did you even change anything?
GRiM_BoB said:
Park and ATLDON, thanks for all the info - this is all very good to know, and great news for US Universal users. I'll just have to wait for 3G 2100 to be active here in Portland, then.
Oh, and ATLDON - one more question. Under your Phone Settings, where you can select GSM and UMTS band and Network Type, did you set it to Auto, or force UMTs, or did you even change anything?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have it set on Auto.
this is interesting stuff, i just got my jasjar as an anniversary gift from my girlfriend and i love the device however anyone that has used HSDPA which i had on my kaiser before i sold it 500-900k going to GPRS has been something that would make one want to cry, and its good news to hear this because i need some form of high speed again, and i'd like to confirm this working because i am going to get a t-mobile prepaid or flex paid sim ASAP to get this going, i am in new york anyone from around here to confirm 2100Mhz?
also anyone able to do a screenshot ?
Funny, I was just trying to get an answer as to whether or not there was a delay in deploying 3G over 1700 vs 2100 mhz to a given area, and I ended up being told "definitively" that unless my handset is able to connect to both freqs, I would be unable to utilize 3G access. CONFUSION. I think there are some disconnects between staff at the T-Mobile customer support, and I haven't really gotten much further than what I would imagine to be tier-two tech support.
I trust in ATLDON's success story, so... Maybe I'll just have to wait and see.
Do you get a 3G indicator somewhere in the taskbar or system tray when you're connected? And what was the MMS setting you had to change? What server are you using for net access? Do you have the $6/mo T-MobileWeb access or one of the other plans?
Sorry for all the questions, just very curious and hopeful that I would soon be able to really use my Uni.
GRiM_BoB said:
Funny, I was just trying to get an answer as to whether or not there was a delay in deploying 3G over 1700 vs 2100 mhz to a given area, and I ended up being told "definitively" that unless my handset is able to connect to both freqs, I would be unable to utilize 3G access. CONFUSION. I think there are some disconnects between staff at the T-Mobile customer support, and I haven't really gotten much further than what I would imagine to be tier-two tech support.
I trust in ATLDON's success story, so... Maybe I'll just have to wait and see.
Do you get a 3G indicator somewhere in the taskbar or system tray when you're connected? And what was the MMS setting you had to change? What server are you using for net access? Do you have the $6/mo T-MobileWeb access or one of the other plans?
Sorry for all the questions, just very curious and hopeful that I would soon be able to really use my Uni.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The 3G indicators don't work on the 6.1 Roms I use. I havent tried any of the WM 5 roms to see if their indicators work
The MMS connect, I had to change it from T-Mobile MMS to the Internet to send/receive multimedia.
I have the 19.99 unlimited data plan.
I use epc.tmobile.com
Are there any other US Uni users in different areas who can report 3G connectivity?
Thus far I've found my own interactions with T-Mobile tech support to be thoroughly useless in getting any sort of details on AWS/3G/2100mhz deployment (maybe I'm just not talking to the right people?)
So, a couple weeks later (and still impatient ) - anyone else in the US with a Universal able to access T-Mobile's 3G network?
ATLDON said:
MobileSpeedTest.com
533.35 KB/sec
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Interesting. 3G has a maximum of 384Kbs to get faster you need HSDPA which AFAIK the Uni does not have...
i would like to know as well i am going to be off of ATT by the 10th of January and i am in nyc i would really like to know so i can make the switch ASAP
Hi Everyone,
I got my X1i on Tuesday. It's obviously a UK import, but so was my TyTN II and it worked great. When I got everything set up, I couldn't get more than 200kbps on dslreports. I put the sim card back in my TyTN II and retested, and got 1.2Mbps.
If I turn off HSDPA/HSUPA the data rate drops to 30kbps. I've played with every combination of data and voice bands and can't get the same performance as the TyTN. I do notice that my X1 never shows the H icon in the status bar like my other phone to indicate high speed (HSDPA).
The bands are exactly the same with a minor addition.
GSM: 900+1800 UMTS: 2100 + 800
GSM: 1900 + 850 UMTS: 1900 + 850
UMTS: 2100 + 800
AT&T seems to run on the middle one.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what could be holding my back? Same SIM, same data plan, etc.
Thanks very much in advance!!!
Hi,
Where do you live? Could be you only have UMTS 850 coverage... But, could also be something else..
dbond45 said:
Hi,
Where do you live? Could be you only have UMTS 850 coverage... But, could also be something else..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I live near Reno, NV. The wierd thing is I literally power down, move the sim to my TyTN II and bingo! I get incredible speeds. Short of getting into the registry I have gone through and confirmed all the GPRS and HSDPA settings are exactly the same.
I think what dbond45 was saying is that you might be in an area that uses 850 band which isn't actually on the x1i. The tytn II on the other hand has the 850 band from what i understand so that might be why ur getting great speeds with ur tytn II.
Bxsteez said:
I think what dbond45 was saying is that you might be in an area that uses 850 band which isn't actually on the x1i. The tytn II on the other hand has the 850 band from what i understand so that might be why ur getting great speeds with ur tytn II.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah, so you're thinking that even though it says it supports 1900+850 in the control panel, the 850 band may be disabled in the radio? I'm pretty technical, but would have no idea how to test that. Any ideas?
By the way, thanks for talking this through with me. I hope it's benefitting others too.
Yes from what i've read all over the place that the 850 radio is disabled. I know that even though the software says u can enable those bands it doesn't actually mean u can. I have the touch pro and it has all of the different bands in the settings and we all know no one can get 3G in the US. So it looks like that is what ur running into. I've read on howard forums at some point a way to test to see if u are working on the 850 band but i don't remember how they did it.
Bxsteez,
The program is fieldtest.exe, and you can find it under windows in your file explorer on the X1, once in WIndows, scroll down to fieldtest.exe and run, although I'm not sure what all the values me..
There is a dispute as to whether the X1i has UMTS 850 (see pocketnow.com post, but, IMHO, I don't think it does, although I wished it did)
Lemme do some research and see if I can find what band Reno is running on. It's very likely it's 850 3G since a) it's a newer market, and b) it's a rural area compared to large cities which use 1900 mhz UMTS...
From what i was reading on howard forums Canada only uses UMTS 850 and the people who have the x1i are reporting only edge speeds.
Indeed you all were right about the discussions on Howard Forums. Read through a lot of them. Thanks for the pointer to fieldtest.exe. I'm digging through it now. I'm hopeful that S/E just threw a software switch in their stack for 850Mhz so the X1i wouldn't carp any of Cingular's sales on the upcoming X1a. Hopeful and maybe a little naive.
X1 on AT&T
I had a similar instance yesterday, sent the X1 back. The same 3 choices for UMTS in WM Phone settings, I selected the 850/1900 bands. I got the H but it was slow. Moved my SIM back to the BlackJack II and worked just fine.
I think the ROM or WM6.1 Stamp they are using is incorrect.
The Xperia Box, on the white label shows UMTS EU1 US3 EU4 I believe which to me would mean 900/1900/2100 I am not positive about the last EU being 3 or 4 since I have mailed the phone already. There are a lot of listings on ebay which show UMTS 850/1900/2100 which I truly believe is incorrect and are being used from a Feb 08 page on gsm arena. Expansys USA told me they had both flavors, then the next day all you see on the US site is the 900/1900/2100.
The US ver is not released ( X1a) from what I read here and everywhere else.
dbond45 said:
Bxsteez,
There is a dispute as to whether the X1i has UMTS 850 (see pocketnow.com post, but, IMHO, I don't think it does, although I wished it did)
Lemme do some research and see if I can find what band Reno is running on. It's very likely it's 850 3G since a) it's a newer market, and b) it's a rural area compared to large cities which use 1900 mhz UMTS...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. There is no dispute. Only dumb people. the X1i DOES NOT have 850mhz UMTS band, the hardware isn't even in the phone. It falsely displayed 850+1900MHZ because it does 1900MHZ and WM assumes that if it has 1900 it must have 850. It doesn't..
2. Reno does in fact run a predominately 850mhz 3G networking using At&t (not cingular, its been over a year since they got bought out) Your speed is likely because of this. Oddly if your phone is set to auto negotiate networks it should pick up EDGE service and show a "G" does it display a G rather than an H? You said the H doesn't display when you force 850+1900 UMTS right? The question is what does come up? Signal strength etc.?
If you import a phone from the UK you need to be prepared to be disappointed with speeds, simple fact, most UK phones don't even support 1900mhz, its there for roaming purposes on the X1. Same reason the X1a will have 850/1900/2100 UMTS. 1900mhz band is the weaker of the 2 used by At&t... 1900mhz was the first frequency they used, they used it so save costs and setup a marginally OK 3G network on a larger area. 1900mhz being a higher frequency means it can travel further than 850, this results in slower speeds and poor reception depending on your location from the nearest tower. 850 is lower frequency and there for more dense, this translates into faster speeds and better reception. Most new areas of at&ts 3G network are spread around with 850mhz. Older markets are a combination of 850mhz/1900mhz and some just 1900mhz.
The point is, if you are blissfully unaware of all this then your best bet is to send the phone back and wait for the US release.
mlinz said:
...
1900mhz band is the weaker of the 2 used by At&t... 1900mhz was the first frequency they used, they used it so save costs and setup a marginally OK 3G network on a larger area. 1900mhz being a higher frequency means it can travel further than 850, this results in slower speeds and poor reception depending on your location from the nearest tower. 850 is lower frequency and there for more dense, this translates into faster speeds and better reception. Most new areas of at&ts 3G network are spread around with 850mhz. Older markets are a combination of 850mhz/1900mhz and some just 1900mhz.
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
FYI: The data transmission speed doesn't depend on frequency. Both 850 and 1900 bands are capable to provide the same speed.
mlinz said:
1. There is no dispute. Only dumb people. the X1i DOES NOT have 850mhz UMTS band, the hardware isn't even in the phone. It falsely displayed 850+1900MHZ because it does 1900MHZ and WM assumes that if it has 1900 it must have 850. It doesn't..QUOTE]
Actually, I along with many others are fully aware the X1i does not have 850 UMTS listed on the box, in the specs, etc. I even made a post about it. HOWEVER, there is a VERY SLIGHT chance it does, and SE never mentioned it in the specs for some unknown reason. If you go to pocketnow.com, Brandon CONFIRMS he spoke to 3 SE reps from the X1 support line who said the X1i had 850 UMTS support. Only 1 said it only had 900/1900/2100 UMTS as listed on the box. 3/4 reps saying it has 850 UMTS, along with the fact he supposedly only gets 850 UMTS where he lives, and is getting HSDPA on the X1i leaves a glimmer of hope for everyone out there, even if it is dismally small.
As far as the "false display" 850/1900 mhz option it is not so much a false display as a software option on most HTC phones, including the euro touch pro...
Anyways, I'm getting decent HSDPA coverage in Chicago...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
joedoe said:
FYI: The data transmission speed doesn't depend on frequency. Both 850 and 1900 bands are capable to provide the same speed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They may output the same speed initially, but 1900 you usually get less bars depending on your location to the tower and less bars means slower speeds.
mlinz said:
...
1900mhz being a higher frequency means it can travel further than 850
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You got this backwards. Think AM and FM. AM can be picked up much farther away.
veloaudio said:
You got this backwards. Think AM and FM. AM can be picked up much farther away.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My bad, I do that a lot
Hi guys,
I am looking for a replacement for my HTC Athena (bought from Dynamism.com).
Being in USA on AT&T's 3G network, I did not consider the HTC Touch HD because of absence of USA 3G.
However, if you read Dynamism's HTC Touch HD page:
http://www.dynamism.com/#Product=touchhd
And their Tech Specks tab, it almost sounds like either they are getting a modified version of Blackstone, or they are misleading on purpose.
Again, I bought from Dynamism before and consider them a trusted retailer.
I will email their sales dept. for clarification.
But what do you guys think - could they have a modified Blackstone?!
Thanks!
main page is misleading and can lead one to conclude that high-speed internet access is available, but the reality is it's not available... your initial assumption is correct, there is no US 3G band on the phone. the tech spec page says GSM/GPRS/EDGE, which is correct.
I thought T-Mobile was rolling out a 3G HSDPA/WCDMA network that worked at 2100 MHz?
my understanding is that you'd need both the 1700 mHz and the 2100 mHz bands in order for high-speed access on T-Mo. one band is for downloads and the other is for uploads. if there's an HD out there that will work on US 3G bands, we would have heard by now, lol. at the moment it's EDGE speeds which meets my basic/simple internet access needs (e.g., Exchange Push, light web browsing, traffic with Garmin or TomTom).
cortez.i said:
my understanding is that you'd need both the 1700 mHz and the 2100 mHz bands in order for high-speed access on T-Mo. one band is for downloads and the other is for uploads. if there's an HD out there that will work on US 3G bands, we would have heard by now, lol. at the moment it's EDGE speeds which meets my basic/simple internet access needs (e.g., Exchange Push, light web browsing, traffic with Garmin or TomTom).
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OK, that makes sense. And I agree..."if there's an HD out there that will work on US 3G bands, we would have heard by now".
Reply from Dynamism.com is even more confusing...
Here is a reply from [email protected]:
--
Hi,
Thank you for contacting us.
The Touch HD we are shipping is not fully US 3G compatible, sorry. It should work if you are in a large city but we do not guarantee it as it does not support the 850 MHz UMTS band. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Best regards
--
I would really appreciate if somebody here would clarify this statement for me and others considering the Touch HD:
- Which bands and WHERE does AT&T use in USA for 3G? I mean, where 850MHz is used, where 1900MHz is used, or both? Are the band allocation maps available to public (not a generic 3G coverage map without the bands allocation)?
- Is that truth that Touch HD supports 1900MHz, but not 850MHz for 3G?
- Does it mean that Touch HD will work on 3G 1900MHz network where available ("a large city", per Dynamism)?
Thank you very much and Happy New Year everybody!
let me put i this way: the Touch HD IS NOT COMPATIBLE with US 3G Bands used by at&t, period. no 3G access, period. None. you will not get 3G speeds, period. you will only get EDGE speeds, period. no 3G, period. forgive my frustrating response, but this issue has been discussed at great length on this and other forums. if you need, rely on, must have 3G speeds in the USA don't get the Touch HD. if there was any truth to what dyna-whoever is saying, we in the US with the HD would have known it and discussed it at great length. when used as a phone, the Touch HD will utilize the 850 and 1900 cell phone bands.
again, i apologize for the tone of my response, but if you read, research on this forum, you'll conclude that the Touch HD does not have 3G speed access in the US. if that ever changes, believe me, you'll know. happy new year!
I was lamenting on my lack of foresight, getting a HD2 without researching the different bands that AT&T and T-Mobile use for 3G coverage, when just the other day...
NOTE: This was on a call to AT&T Support and the tech tells me:
a) Once unlocked from TMOUS, I should do a search on "AT&T APN's" and that if I search diligently, I will find APNs on AT&T's network that support HD2 3G Bands
b) AT&T techs, right in his data center have this working.
So I research a bit, and, apart form everyone and his brother professing to be 3G Band experts, and saying all I will see is Edge if I put the HD2 on AT&T. (Which is troublesome, since Wikipedia claims Edge is being dropped to facilitate more 3G bandwidth, so potentially I would lose even THAT).
Here is what official information I could find on the two:
The U.S. T-Mobile network predominately uses the GSM/GPRS/EDGE 1900 MHz frequency-band. T-Mobile's UMTS (3G) service is now active in over 30 major US cities
Further all official documentation states that AT&T uses:
* 850 MHz UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+ 3G
* 1900 MHz UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+ 3G
Finally look at my screenshot, taken from the GSM 3G toggle on the "Settings Tab" of Manila. I am running a NRG ROM (see signature) and I KNOW this is wishful thinking. This screen in particular is no doubt a function of the many devices NRG cooks for, but really, can anyone explain to me why this technically would NOT WORK (other than "just because", LOL)?
AT&T's CEO recently gave an interview and stated that the company's 3G service is being migrated to the 850MHz band with a target date of 2010:
http://www.intomobile.com/2009/02/24/att-3g-network-going-850mhz-nationwide-by-2010.html
For what it's worth, I think the Australian version of the HD2 might have a band that overlaps with US AT&T bands.
Whos gonna buy me one?
Mase_Mase said:
AT&T's CEO recently gave an interview and stated that the company's 3G service is being migrated to the 850MHz band with a target date of 2010:
http://www.intomobile.com/2009/02/24/att-3g-network-going-850mhz-nationwide-by-2010.html
For what it's worth, I think the Australian version of the HD2 might have a band that overlaps with US AT&T bands.
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Yes, I have been hearing the same. Problem is, I am not likely to fork out $$ for ANOTHER HD2. I just wanted to get the most out of the one I have. Thx!
if something like this WAS possible, it would have to be through something like a rogue apn setup on non-standard frequencies on ATT's network...but good luck finding anything like that, it wouldn't be able to remain a secret if it existed. also, if the hd2 had the ability to use those native frequencies, it would have had to have been certified as such by the FCC (which of course it wasn't).
To summarize, the only way to make it happen is if ATT did indeed somehow sneak in alternative-frequency apn's across it's entire network. Let us know how the search for those turns out
SmartAs$Phone said:
The U.S. T-Mobile network predominately uses the GSM/GPRS/EDGE 1900 MHz frequency-band. T-Mobile's UMTS (3G) service is now active in over 30 major US cities
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Sorry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Mobile_USA
3G (UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+) service by T-Mobile exclusively uses the AWS 1700/2100 MHz frequency-band, making it incompatible with other existing 3G UMTS/HSPA networks already established in the United States.
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Its not physically possible. The hardware would have to be changed. They don't make radio chips with all the bands in it. I see this all the time, some random csr from whatever company says it can be done, but its just not true. Cell phones are designed and made for a specific company. They don't make universal radios and just turn off some bands. They don't exist, though I did read a few months back that Motorala was working on making one.
Although I understand the reason for your wishful thinking (and you did do some research which is always great), unfortunately it is just that and I'll gladly (though not happily) tell you why.
As you stated "U.S. T-Mobile network predominately uses the GSM/GPRS/EDGE 1900 MHz frequency-band" which is correct (and it also uses the 850 band for edge as well....though this is usually more 'roaming' aka you're using another companies cell tower because tmobile made a contract with them to allow you). You were also correct in stating that "Further all official documentation states that AT&T uses:
* 850 MHz UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+ 3G
* 1900 MHz UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+ 3G"
Also, ironcroth was also correct in quoting that "3G (UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+) service by T-Mobile exclusively uses the AWS 1700/2100 MHz frequency-band" which alone might not answer your question.
So where is the problem if both use 1900 and 850 bands? Well, the problem is that in the hardware, there is a difference between GSM/GPRS/EDGE and 3G/UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+. In other words, you can't use 1900 and 850 Edge frequency of the HD2's radio chip to get 3G (UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+); they are incompatible. This is why phone spects always list both seperatly and not just all the frequencies that it supports.
The above reason alone will make the TmoUSA HD2 incompatible with AT&T's 3G, but there's even more. When Tmobile says that it uses the (for example) 1900 frequency band for Edge, it doesn't actually mean that it uses 1900-1999 frequencies; instead it only uses a part of that spectrum (buying the full 100 frequency range would be expensive so they only buy what they need). Instead they only use maybe something like 1943-1978. And this range will likely not overlap with the frequncies that AT&T uses for their 3G (you can look up the exact values on the internet if you'd like). This second reason is why a european phone which supports 2100 band for 3g will not work on Tmobile's 3G 2100 frequncy (because they don't actually overlap).
Lastly (and I almost forgot to mention this), the screen shot you posted from your ROM can indeed be changed by a cook to whatever they want (though it won't actually make any difference since it all depends on the hardware). However, in this case, it's likely because htc actually made the error and never updated that screen and just used it from their previous builds from previous phones (this was stated on the forums before and I'm sure you'd be able to find it given some searching).
Hope this helps.
sirphunkee said:
To summarize, the only way to make it happen is if ATT did indeed somehow sneak in alternative-frequency apn's across it's entire network. Let us know how the search for those turns out
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Quite unlikely, the AWS bands are licensed to TMO, im sure TMO would notice real quick if there were unlicensed cell towers on the AWS band and the FCC would be slapping ATT with fines pretty quick. quite alot of work goes into setting up cell towers and the frequencies each cell segment runs on, If a rouge cell tower went up overlapping TMO's frequencies, all hell would likely break loose as far as customers being able to get usable service in the area.
also as far as the terminology APN's don't operate on a "frequency" an APN is more or less and authentication/proxy server on the data network after the data has transferred over the air interface.
Maybe the best way to think of it is similar to a cell tower being like a wifi access point, and the APN being like an authenticating router/firewall on a standard tcp/ip network. yeah i know its not quite the same, but that might be a simple way to visualize it for those familiar with networking
d0ug said:
Quite unlikely, the AWS bands are licensed to TMO, im sure TMO would notice real quick if there were unlicensed cell towers on the AWS band and the FCC would be slapping ATT with fines pretty quick. quite alot of work goes into setting up cell towers and the frequencies each cell segment runs on, If a rouge cell tower went up overlapping TMO's frequencies, all hell would likely break loose as far as customers being able to get usable service in the area.
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Exactly
d0ug said:
also as far as the terminology APN's don't operate on a "frequency" an APN is more or less and authentication/proxy server on the data network after the data has transferred over the air interface.
Maybe the best way to think of it is similar to a cell tower being like a wifi access point, and the APN being like an authenticating router/firewall on a standard tcp/ip network. yeah i know its not quite the same, but that might be a simple way to visualize it for those familiar with networking
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Right, very true...I should have said "apn's attached to alternative-frequency radios" Are you a Ham d0ug?
sirphunkee said:
Exactly
Right, very true...I should have said "apn's attached to alternative-frequency radios" Are you a Ham d0ug?
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Haha no, though i do have scanners and listen in on HAMs sometimes and have read up on the stuff somewhat. never gotten myself licensed.
On the subject of scanners, there isnt all that much interesting to listen too anymore. Here in tampa the police and sheriff are on analog trunked now, so its impossible to follow anything without a trunking scanner, and about the only other things you can listen to are cabbies, tow truck drivers, aircraft, and hams. I don't even know why scanners still have the 800mhz blocks anymore, analog amps cellular has been dead a few years now. you find lots of digital noise scanning around though, just about everything is transmitted digitally now. i've got an icom R20 that goes from 150khz all the way upto 3ghz
So why don't you put in an AT&T sim card with a 3G data plan and let us know if you get 3G on your HD2?
Svegetto said:
Although I understand the reason for your wishful thinking (and you did do some research which is always great), unfortunately it is just that and I'll gladly (though not happily) tell you why.
As you stated "U.S. T-Mobile network predominately uses the GSM/GPRS/EDGE 1900 MHz frequency-band" which is correct (and it also uses the 850 band for edge as well....though this is usually more 'roaming' aka you're using another companies cell tower because tmobile made a contract with them to allow you). You were also correct in stating that "Further all official documentation states that AT&T uses:
* 850 MHz UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+ 3G
* 1900 MHz UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+ 3G"
Also, ironcroth was also correct in quoting that "3G (UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+) service by T-Mobile exclusively uses the AWS 1700/2100 MHz frequency-band" which alone might not answer your question.
So where is the problem if both use 1900 and 850 bands? Well, the problem is that in the hardware, there is a difference between GSM/GPRS/EDGE and 3G/UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+. In other words, you can't use 1900 and 850 Edge frequency of the HD2's radio chip to get 3G (UMTS/HSPA/HSPA+); they are incompatible. This is why phone spects always list both seperatly and not just all the frequencies that it supports.
The above reason alone will make the TmoUSA HD2 incompatible with AT&T's 3G, but there's even more. When Tmobile says that it uses the (for example) 1900 frequency band for Edge, it doesn't actually mean that it uses 1900-1999 frequencies; instead it only uses a part of that spectrum (buying the full 100 frequency range would be expensive so they only buy what they need). Instead they only use maybe something like 1943-1978. And this range will likely not overlap with the frequncies that AT&T uses for their 3G (you can look up the exact values on the internet if you'd like). This second reason is why a european phone which supports 2100 band for 3g will not work on Tmobile's 3G 2100 frequncy (because they don't actually overlap).
Lastly (and I almost forgot to mention this), the screen shot you posted from your ROM can indeed be changed by a cook to whatever they want (though it won't actually make any difference since it all depends on the hardware). However, in this case, it's likely because htc actually made the error and never updated that screen and just used it from their previous builds from previous phones (this was stated on the forums before and I'm sure you'd be able to find it given some searching).
Hope this helps.
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Thank you very much. I myself had been wondering why I couldn't get an HTC Desire (honestly, pretty much the only phone I'd change my HD2 for unless a GSM version of the Supersonic becomes available) and have it work in the US at the 2100 frequency.
When I asked before, people would tell me that a phone would have to support both bands (1700/2100) to actually run on T-Mobile because one did HSDPA and the other did HSUPA, but that didn't make sense to me since all you need is a single band frequency to handle both D and U data streams.
Your explanation makes a lot more sense. It's a sad thing, though.
I remember reading somewhere that a chip manufacturer (motorola?) was working on a all frequency chip. I also read that the inherent problem with that would be the antenna.
It would be awesome to have an all band phone that world travelers could utilize. I love the HD2, I had upgraded from a long time use of a Treo 750. That phone was pretty close (quad GSM, triple umts). However when Tmo rolled out it's 3G on 1700 I was still stuck on edge with the 750.
Finally bit the bullet for an HD2, really like this phone. The 750 seems antique now heheh
moonchaser said:
I remember reading somewhere that a chip manufacturer (motorola?) was working on a all frequency chip. I also read that the inherent problem with that would be the antenna.
It would be awesome to have an all band phone that world travelers could utilize. I love the HD2, I had upgraded from a long time use of a Treo 750. That phone was pretty close (quad GSM, triple umts). However when Tmo rolled out it's 3G on 1700 I was still stuck on edge with the 750.
Finally bit the bullet for an HD2, really like this phone. The 750 seems antique now heheh
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Building a multi frequency chip isnt all that hard. software defined radios have existed for quite some time. basically a simple reprogramming allows it to xmit/rec on a different frequency. the trouble comes in the antenna design. antennas must be designed to work at specific frequencies to be the most efficient at transmitting and the most sensitive at receiving. trying to make a single antenna capable of xmit and rec anywhere in a bandwidth ranging from 700mhz upto say the 2500mhz that wimax uses, is going to make for quite a ****ty antenna at any frequency. When you see the piece of foil antennas in todays phones, they may just look like a simple piece of foil, but a lot of design goes into them to make them work well at the frequencies they need to work with.
I guarantee if you compared the internal antenna of the Euro, AUS and USA HD2 there are slight differences. Ill bet the radio chip in them is for the most part identical, there may be something modified on them to keep people from interchanging the radio roms between them though since that would invalidate any FCC or other country equivalent certification for that phone to operate
Its one thing to run a hacked rom, its something completely different to use an uncertified radio rom. Could cause all kinds of havoc with the cellular network, and get slapped with FCC fines if they could track down your trouble causing phone
d0ug said:
Building a multi frequency chip isnt all that hard. software defined radios have existed for quite some time. basically a simple reprogramming allows it to xmit/rec on a different frequency. the trouble comes in the antenna design. antennas must be designed to work at specific frequencies to be the most efficient at transmitting and the most sensitive at receiving. trying to make a single antenna capable of xmit and rec anywhere in a bandwidth ranging from 700mhz upto say the 2500mhz that wimax uses, is going to make for quite a ****ty antenna at any frequency. When you see the piece of foil antennas in todays phones, they may just look like a simple piece of foil, but a lot of design goes into them to make them work well at the frequencies they need to work with.
I guarantee if you compared the internal antenna of the Euro, AUS and USA HD2 there are slight differences. Ill bet the radio chip in them is for the most part identical, there may be something modified on them to keep people from interchanging the radio roms between them though since that would invalidate any FCC or other country equivalent certification for that phone to operate
Its one thing to run a hacked rom, its something completely different to use an uncertified radio rom. Could cause all kinds of havoc with the cellular network, and get slapped with FCC fines if they could track down your trouble causing phone
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Yeah that's on par with what I had read, you do well at explaining it.
Maybe some futuristic worldphone designer would opt for interchangeable external antenna's... I could live with that or maybe multiple builtin foils with a software driven switch between them and the radio... that would be neat. Not holding my breath though...
Interesting on the FCC, hadn't thought of that.
moonchaser said:
Yeah that's on par with what I had read, you do well at explaining it.
Maybe some futuristic worldphone designer would opt for interchangeable external antenna's... I could live with that or maybe multiple builtin foils with a software driven switch between them and the radio... that would be neat. Not holding my breath though...
Interesting on the FCC, hadn't thought of that.
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Thanks, I was just again looking at the spec differences between the euro and TMO HD2s and i really don't know why HTC did not also give the TMO HD2 850/900mhz HSPA/WCDMA to truly make it a world 3G phone. According to the tech specs over at HTC.com, TMO HD2 can already use 850/900mhz for GSM/GPRS/EDGE so the antenna is obviously quite capable of both. The only other frequency the TMO HD2 has to handle that the euro doesn't is 1700mhz
Part of me thinks it was probably done so the HD2 couldn't be used over on AT&T
d0ug said:
Thanks, I was just again looking at the spec differences between the euro and TMO HD2s and i really don't know why HTC did not also give the TMO HD2 850/900mhz HSPA/WCDMA to truly make it a world 3G phone. According to the tech specs over at HTC.com, TMO HD2 can already use 850/900mhz for GSM/GPRS/EDGE so the antenna is obviously quite capable of both. The only other frequency the TMO HD2 has to handle that the euro doesn't is 1700mhz
Part of me thinks it was probably done so the HD2 couldn't be used over on AT&T
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It had nothing to do with AT&T, it's because there's a difference between Edge and 3g radio frequency. More than that, there is no phone radio chip that supports all those frequencies and even more so, htc doesn't manufacture radio chips, they purchase them and put them in their phones....just like the majority of the hardware
Srs wow hd
How do you get SRS WOW HD downloaded onto the HTC HD2?
Svegetto said:
a european phone which supports 2100 band for 3g will not work on Tmobile's 3G 2100 frequncy
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I think this is incorrect -- the 2100 band support on the HD2 is in fact expressly intended for 3G compatibility in Europe/Asia, and people have reported being able to get 3G in Europe with their US HD2.
1700 == US-only 3G
2100 == Europe, Asia 3G
What's missing, I believe, might be 3G support in certain areas of places like Latin America which may follow US frequencies but don't have T-Mobile USA there to provide 1700 service... e.g., no 2100 and no 1700 either.
T-Mobile U.S. uses both AWS 1700mhz and 2100mhz for 3G. The 2100mhz band is used for transmit and 1700mhz is used for receive. Hence the incompatibility with other carriers phones that only operate in one spectrum.
Cheers.
~Jasecloud4