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The future of Smartphone camera's

Ok as we know current crop of Smartphone camera's are pretty good, still not as good as a decent point & shoot, but the gap is getting smaller.
What we need to totally replace point & shoot's in the future is better optics & sensors.
The sensor in current smartphones is basically tiny, in the future they need to find way to fit a bigger sensor's & improve the optics while keep the phone slim at the same time.
Sony seem to be leading the way on sensor technology atm, as alot of camera and smartphone makers are using these, and i've no doubt the sensor tech will get even better in the future.
Nokia seem to be on the right track with the 808, using a big sensor and adding 41mp to use as a zoom so basically to zoom into a picture you just crop, not as effective as an optical zoom, but zillion times better than using digital zoom, plus when then 808 is using just 12mp it better than any current smartphone out picture quality wise, also they are planning on using that same sensor in some of it's Lumia range of phones proberly sometime next year which would be intresting to see if they can keep the phone slim aswell.
Another problem seem to be with megapixels, luckily Samsung have been smart this year and kept it to 8mp instead of ramping it upto 12mp like most of thought they would, because this would have actually made the camera worst "noise wise" than what it currently is now, basically because the Backlit Sensor they using in the Galaxy S3 isn't that much better than what was used in the Galaxy S2 which didn't have one, so making it 12mp would have proberly been a disaster.
Soon we have the iphone 5 on the market & i reckon this will proberly have a better camera than the current crop of top end smartphone's, as Apple did a pretty good job with the camera on the iphone 4S.
So rather than ramble on, what would you like to see camera tech wise on your smartphone?

ixon2001 said:
Ok as we know current crop of Smartphone camera's are pretty good, still not as good as a decent point & shoot, but the gap is getting smaller.
What we need to totally replace point & shoot's in the future is better optics & sensors.
The sensor in current smartphones is basically tiny, in the future they need to find way to fit a bigger sensor's & improve the optics while keep the phone slim at the same time.
Sony seem to be leading the way on sensor technology atm, as alot of camera and smartphone makers are using these, and i've no doubt the sensor tech will get even better in the future.
Nokia seem to be on the right track with the 808, using a big sensor and adding 41mp to use as a zoom so basically to zoom into a picture you just crop, not as effective as an optical zoom, but zillion times better than using digital zoom, plus when then 808 is using just 12mp it better than any current smartphone out picture quality wise, also they are planning on using that same sensor in some of it's Lumia range of phones proberly sometime next year which would be intresting to see if they can keep the phone slim aswell.
Another problem seem to be with megapixels, luckily Samsung have been smart this year and kept it to 8mp instead of ramping it upto 12mp like most of thought they would, because this would have actually made the camera worst "noise wise" than what it currently is now, basically because the Backlit Sensor they using in the Galaxy S3 isn't that much better than what was used in the Galaxy S2 which didn't have one, so making it 12mp would have proberly been a disaster.
Soon we have the iphone 5 on the market & i reckon this will proberly have a better camera than the current crop of top end smartphone's, as Apple did a pretty good job with the camera on the iphone 4S.
So rather than ramble on, what would you like to see camera tech wise on your smartphone?
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quite a few good points you have mentioned, you definitely know a bit about photograph since you mentioned the density of pixels on sensors...In my opinion, 8MP is enough for the average creative shot, snapshot, instragam, Facebook...furthermore, Im pretty adamint that the SGS3 camera is slightly better than my Fujifilm JV200...haha...but then again, the quality and noise level is quite similar to my SGS2...I honestly believe that as far as sensors this size, the limitations are achieved...the rest is up to effective post processing or basically increasing size of sensor/lens such as the Nokia 808...while the iPhone5 looks to be a 12MP, I doubt there will be radical advantages over the SGS3...as it surely wont be overwhelming as the Nokia 808...if you're real keen for a good shoot...take my Nikon dSLR.

camera's what?

tshoulihane said:
camera's what?
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punctuation police alert

Sony XZ camera quality

Having used XZ's camera for some hundred pictures in various conditions, I have to comment on the very smart automatic mode. It does produce excellent results in identifying conditions and exposure and colour rendition are trully very good. However, photograhic quality is just not there. Detail suffers a lot from either noise or too much post processing. In some cases when viewing at 1:1 zoom, it reminds me the results of applying some of photoshop's artistic filters in a subtle yet identifiable way.
Sony must have had a reason to incorporate such heavy post processing. The Exmor RS module was originally designed to handle RGBW coding (white plus the traditional RGB). Apparently somewhere along the way, Sony changed their minds as they could not make it work to their "image quality standards" and reverted back to traditional RGB (1), (2). One can only make assumptions, but perhaps the rather heavy noise processing of the image and compression may have its roots to decisions taken to correct other issues, ie. degraded light performance and consequent noise through higher ISOs.
It would be interesting to see how the sensor performs in other phones. One example is the Oppo Find 5. Unfortunately the results are pretty much the same, ie. plenty of noise which brings down detail. (3), (4) Which can only mean that the root of the problem is either any firmware handling the signal of the actual image sensor or that the design itself is flawed.
It is rumoured that the same sensor will also be used in the new SGS4 (we will know soon enough) and the revised iPhone 5S. So let's wait and see what they can make of it. It would be disappointing to see two highly anticipated phones featuring worse cameras than the models they are replacing.
In photographic terms, the way to get better pictures is larger aperture and image stabilization. Letting more light in is the secret and there are two ways of doing it: larger aperture or longer exposure times. The latter results in shaky pictures which is counteracted to some extent though image stabilization. The former usually requires a longer camera+lens module. (in DSLRs larger aperture also means small DOF but this is not an issue for phone cameras where the sensor is so small). That's why incorporating a F/2.0 or F/2.2 aperture usually means thicker phone or a lump at the back. Sony also makes a F/2.2 module which is 5.5mm thick vs 4.2mm for the F/2.4 which was selected for the XZ, probably to keep its thickness to an impressive 7.9mm. (5) The larger aperture could also an excuse for the thickness of the Nokia Lumia 920 which its F/2.0 aperture lens. (6) However, Lumia 920 does pull it off and the result of a good sensor, the F/2.0 aperture and optical image stabilization is great photographic quality. Another approach is having less pixels, something HTC implemented in the One, which again features a F/2.0 aperture @ 9.3mm thickness. However this also has obvious disadvantages in losing detail and the ability to crop a photograph.
Higher pixel count, 13MP vs 8MP, also means that to get the same exposure with the same speed, aperture and ISO rating you need MORE light. (7) Thus, when 8MP is pretty good resolution for every day photography, increasing the pixel count just for the sake of it is the wrong way to go. I do not need to use my Canon 550D at more than 8MP, even when on holidays, even though it supports 18MP resolution.
What has the future in store for us? Well, Sony has made a large investment in the new assembly line and tools to produce the Exmor RS series and they want to see it through. So, I would expect to see revised editions of the module with significant improvements.
Many thanks for reading.
Sources
(1) engadget.com/2012/09/21/sony-exmor-rs-stacked-phone-camera-sensors-detuned-over-quality/
(2) droiddog.com/android-blog/2012/09/sonys-exmor-rs-sensors-downgraded-due-to-quality-concerns/
(3) gizmochina.com/2012/12/15/oppo-find-5-using-sony-cmos-exmor-rs-sensor-camera-component/
(4) gsmarena.com/oppo_find_5-review-880p8.php
(5) imaging-resource.com/news/2012/08/20/sony-exmor-rs-sensors-to-allow-slimmer-better-camera-phones
(6) nokia.com/global/products/phone/lumia920/specifications/[/url]
(7) wpcentral.com/thoughts-and-impressions-nokia-lumia-920s-pureview-camera

so XZ camera issue is due to a software?
For the Mp count, u mean that a DSLR like nikon D800 is not only useless but pointless DSLR.
Photographer use extra MP to take pics at RAW format then convert them the way the Photographer want.

Only the engineers at Sony know if the issue can be corrected with revised algorithms or indeed the sensor can't give anything more. My view is that if this was possible they would not have resorted to so much post processing in the first place. If anything Sony knows photography photography much more than Apple or Samsung.
Of course I am not suggesting that dSLRs have the same function as a camera phone. My personal view is that as a casual photographer I don't need more than 8MPs. Of course there have been instances were I choose to shoot in RAW but I doubt that in such a situation a 13MP camera sensor will bail me out anyway. A dSLR is another beast. My message was about finding the best balance for a camera phone.
Thank you

8MP on dslr is not the same 8MP on a phone.
The sensor in dslr is way bigger than the one i a phone.
Sent from my C6602 using xda premium

Hopefully this is not the result of the Sony camera division trying to hold back on their phones. It happened before with Sony Music trying to stop them from releasing a MP3 player, thats why they were stuck with the mini disk atrac bs for a long time and enter very later into the mp3 market. Too often things like this happened in the company where we see the left hand is trying to fight the right hand making the company so far behind the competitors. Makes no sense that their phone camera is still very mediocre where they make some of the best camera out there.

comparing to my Xperia X10i i get the feeling the color is to much yellow in iAutomatic!
https://picasaweb.google.com/114460...&authkey=Gv1sRgCOO5m9yRrqu1Vw&feat=directlink
btw: Your Opinion on this Topic ?
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6777/understanding-camera-optics-smartphone-camera-trends

Is there anyway to make taken images stay at the size they are suposed to be? I mean i want to stop the compression of the image like I had on Xperia S and quality was much better (not better than on xperia Z tho )

Camera sensor question

Alright, so it's known that the sensor used in the N6P is the Sony IMX377. However, does anyone know if this sensor is native 16:9? 12.3mp is already pretty damn low for a "flagship" phone now-a-days, so it would kind of suck to have to go down to 9.6mp to shoot in a 16:9 aspect ratio.

I quickly googled the sensor and there are a couple of datasheets, I am no camera lens technical expert but it looks like 12.3MP is 4:3.
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/IS/sensor2/products/imx377.html

__NBH__ said:
I quickly googled the sensor and there are a couple of datasheets, I am no camera lens technical expert but it looks like 12.3MP is 4:3.
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/IS/sensor2/products/imx377.html
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Damn. I have to say, that's disappointing...

Yeah, it's 9.6mp in 16:9.

I like 4:3 MUCH better for photos, anyway.

Same, 4:3 is better

Me too...

4:3 crop sensors are fsr more common than full frame 16:9 ones. I like the 4:3 shots better anyway

I agree it is very disappointing. I don't like 4:3 photos at all and I'm use to DSLRs with 16:9 photos.

Slash8915 said:
Alright, so it's known that the sensor used in the N6P is the Sony IMX377. However, does anyone know if this sensor is native 16:9? 12.3mp is already pretty damn low for a "flagship" phone now-a-days, so it would kind of suck to have to go down to 9.6mp to shoot in a 16:9 aspect ratio.
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Are you sure you need all that resolution? Even at 9.6 MP that's more information than could be displayed on a 4K television screen.
Keep in mind that although the IMX377 is not as high resolution sensor as some of the 16 MP and 20 MP sensors seen these days, it is a very large 1/2.3 sensor (large for a phone). So it is actually physically the largest sensor that's been put in any flagship, except the Xperia Zx phones and the great Nokia phones (like the 808, 1020, N8 that have sensors which remain years beyond anyone, even though they are no longer new phones).
So the reason the 6P has "only" 12.3 MP is not because it is a "low" or "small" sensor. It's a very large sensor (again, for a phone). But instead of using the extra size for more pixels, which is a waste for almost all purposes, they use the extra size for larger pixels. This means the images should have better color accuracy (lack of reviews of the phone proving this, notwithstanding), because the larger pixels can catch more light. The overall larger sensor also improves low light performance and noise.
Even the Z5, the only other phone with a 1/2.3 sensors, doesn't use it's full 23 MP to create unnecessarily enormous photos with details no one needs. Instead its default setting to to produce 8 MP images. The extra pixels are used to oversample, using many pixels to composite into one effectively larger pixel, for the advantages of color accuracy and lower noise. This is the "Pureview" technique pioneered by Nokia with the 808 and its huge 1/1.2 sensor, that's actually 41 MP, but defaults to "only" 5 MP final images.
So unless you have a very specialized need for more detail than the already massive amoung of detail of 9.6 MP or 12.3 MP (and assuming you even have a screen capable of displaying more than the 8 MP it takes to fll a 4K screen), the benefits of smaller images, with larger pixels, and a larger 1/2.3 sensor far outweigh pointless extra pixels that people get obsessed with but serves no purpose for most people. Remember, the megapixel race in phones and consumer cameras has always been a mistake, that produces a level of detail people don't need and can't see, that produces unnecessarily large file sizes, and that actually creates problems like reduced color accuracy and increased noise. Physical sensor size matters a lot, megapixels, beyond about 5 MP or 8 MP serve no purpose (unless you're creating billboards or printing wall sized photos).
*
One side note, if your current phone is the LG G4, as your signature suggests, I would not expect to get better images out of the 6P. The G4 has arguably the best camera in a current smartphone. It already has a pretty large 1/2.6 sensor. Even though it's pretty high resolution at 16 MP, apparently they've done something to really reduce the amount of noise you'd normally expect from a 16 MP sensor. And it has one very large advantage over the 6P, which is OIS (optical image stabilization). I'd really wait for reviews that compare the G4 camera to the 6P, if this is important to you. At best, I'd expect the 6P to be as good as the G4 (and it may not be), but I'd be surprised if it surpassed the G4 for still images. And without OIS, there's no way videos will be as stable on the 6P, whatever other merits it may have.

The Z5 have a pretty stable camera, one of the best in the market right now and it doesnt have OIS. So lets hope google will arrive with a better algorithm

Selfie Camera 16MP?

I just noticed the selfie Camera is always out of focus or not as sharp as the mega pickles it says. I turned off the beautification mode and still same results. I compared it to my S8+ and even though it has 8mp; it captures sharp focused selfies. Tsk tsk tsk!

sharpness has nothing to do with mega pixels..
maybe you can take some sample photos with the front cameras of both devices and show here to illustrate..

hatyrei said:
I just noticed the selfie Camera is always out of focus or not as sharp as the mega pickles it says. I turned off the beautification mode and still same results. I compared it to my S8+ and even though it has 8mp; it captures sharp focused selfies. Tsk tsk tsk!
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The OP5 selfie cam has a fixed focus.
This means that there is an optimal distance which has to be kept to the camera for the pictures to be in focus.
If you are too close or too far away from the sensor you won't be sharp and there is nothing you can do about this.
Your S8+ selfie camera has autofocus, so the distance to the camera doesn't matter.

Wrong! Lol. Megapixels plays a part in photo sharpness and quality. I'm just baffled the sheer amount of marketing they have for better pics. It's a huge b.s. Ifou have the 1+5 you can try it out! And compare it to your other phones!

AcmE85 said:
The OP5 selfie cam has a fixed focus.
This means that there is an optimal distance which has to be kept to the camera for the pictures to be in focus.
If you are too close or too far away from the sensor you won't be sharp and there is nothing you can do about this.
Your S8+ selfie camera has autofocus, so the distance to the camera doesn't matter.
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So you're saying I need to hold the phone in a certain distance for the selfie shooter? I tested it in arms length but the results are still awful.

hatyrei said:
So you're saying I need to hold the phone in a certain distance for the selfie shooter? I tested it in arms length but the results are still awful.
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Exactly.
But if you still are unhappy you might try Google Camera for selfies.
I use it on my OP3 and it uses less postprocessing so depending on the lighting,
selfies come out better in my opinion. In lowlight you will see more noise though.
http://www.apkmirror.com/apk/google...amera-4-4-012-156195200-android-apk-download/

hatyrei said:
So you're saying I need to hold the phone in a certain distance for the selfie shooter? I tested it in arms length but the results are still awful.
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Are you sure it's a focus problem? :angel:

hatyrei said:
Wrong! Lol. Megapixels plays a part in photo sharpness and quality. I'm just baffled the sheer amount of marketing they have for better pics. It's a huge b.s. Ifou have the 1+5 you can try it out! And compare it to your other phones!
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it does take part in quality but not sharpness. Sharpness has to do with optical lens and sensor size. I am in the process of returning OP5 because my 6P camera is sharper and crispier. 1.55 µm on 6P vs 1.12 µm and 1.0 µm on OP5.
Full frame DSLR like Canon 5D has 6.5+ µm.
OP5 just used legacy marketing tactic using mpx size instead of actuality of the quality.

zerosource said:
it does take part in quality but not sharpness. Sharpness has to do with optical lens and sensor size. I am in the process of returning OP5 because my 6P camera is sharper and crispier. 1.55 µm on 6P vs 1.12 µm and 1.0 µm on OP5.
Full frame DSLR like Canon 5D has 6.5+ µm.
OP5 just used legacy marketing tactic using mpx size instead of actuality of the quality.
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i think you are baby-sitting the wrong target.. selfie-shooters tend to know little or nothing about photography..
i ceased to provide any help here after that initial "Wrong" response.. typical response not surprisingly..

Camera: DSLR Focus/ Depth of Field?

Hi
I'm not sure if the Galaxy S8 is able to do this but how can you get DSLR style focus where a subject/ person is in focus and background blurry? Can the rear camera do this as well as selfie cam? I haven't seen any options for it.
Seems only the Note 8 has this (or iPhone X, Google Pixel 2)?

Note 8 has second cam, which is x2 telephoto lens, so already has shallower focus depth and rest is done with software. S8 does not have second cam.
And here is the problem: blurred background, called bokeh, is mostly used in portrait photography. Wide angle cams so commonly used on phones should not be used for portrait photography, because due to wide field of view being projected on flat surface you get big distortions and wrong proportion, like big nose for example. Check fish eye lens pictures to see this distortion effect fully. So while you could distort background and make portrait photo with standard phone lens like s8 have, it would look silly. Outside of portrait photos I don't see much use for shallow depth of field, but if you're so inclined you could experiment with photo editing software like photoshop and create same effect. Expect S9 to have dual lens and portrait capability in about 6 months or get Note 8 now if you really want it.

MXS801 said:
Hi
I'm not sure if the Galaxy S8 is able to do this but how can you get DSLR style focus where a subject/ person is in focus and background blurry? Can the rear camera do this as well as selfie cam? I haven't seen any options for it.
Seems only the Note 8 has this (or iPhone X, Google Pixel 2)?
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there's an app that does this function very well. AfterFocus. the pro version lets you save in original quality. It only takes a few minutes to get the same result from dual camera devices.

Selective Focus is one of the camera modes out of the box. That is what you are looking for.

I have an S8 and have tried the selective focus mode, which works relatively well as long as the object stays still long enough, however I was reading an article about the Pixel 2 this morning and this extract made me hope that Samsung can also follow Google
"The single-lens portrait mode photos were made possible by its adoption of a dual-pixel sensor - meaning each pixel can be used to both record the image and determine focus rather than just one or the other.
Some of Samsung's handsets already feature the technology, but Google has built on it with proprietary software to make it possible to create a depth map for photos, which can be used to add special effects."
I hope that Samsung can improve the selective mode for the rear camera as the S8 also has a dual-pixel set up, unfortunately the front camera doesn't have dual-pixels
Another thing is I'm hoping that the Google Camera app, which I have running on my S8, should get an update to support this....fingers crossed.