Related
do you think it'll make any difference??? would it be better or worse? should we change our N1s soon
http://mashable.com/2010/07/26/htc-super-lcd/
HTC officially announced it will be swapping AMOLED with Super LCD (SLCD) displays in several of its phones later this summer, including the Desire and Nexus One.
The reason, according to HTC, is high demand for phones with 3.7 inch displays, and low availability of AMOLED screens.
Whether AMOLED screens are better than LCD screens is debatable, but buyers of these SLCD-equipped versions of HTC smartphones get an added benefit: better batery life. “The SLCD displays provide consumers with a comparable visual experience to HTC’s current 3.7 inch displays with some additional benefits including battery performance,” said HTC CEO Peter Chou.
This sheds light onto Apple’s reasoning for choosing LCD technology for its iPhone 4. When Steve Jobs introduced the iPhone 4, he said its LCD retina display is “quite a bit better than OLED displays.” It’s quite possible, however, that Apple went with LCD technology because it estimated that AMOLEDs will be in short supply.
already a thread on this on the first page of the general forum.
I've been trying to understand the relative differences between the IPS displays used in the IPAD 2 and the Transformer, the Super PLS display of the Galaxy Tab 10.1 and the TFT used in the XOOM. I settled on contrast ratio as an objective means of comparison.
Article 1 XOOM: 750
Article 2 XOOM: 597!
iPad 2: 775
Galaxy Tab 10.1: 830
Transformer: 763
Article Quote: "Contrast ratio is also better on the Galaxy Tab 10.1: 830:1 vs 763:1 on the Eee Pad Transformer."
What surprises me the most out of all this, besides the XOOM discrepancies , is that the contrast of the Galaxy Tab 10.1 display is not as incredible as we were lead to believe. It compares favorably with IPS, but isn't really leaps and bounds better. In fact, it might have equivalent or slightly lower contrast than an IPS display, or conventional display but better viewing angles.
Interesting quote: "On the other hand IPS (and PLS) has significantly lower contrast ratios compared to the best VA based panels that Samsung and other manufacturers have used in high-end phones for years."
Side note is that the multiple contrast ratios for the XOOM screen might reflect the multiple screen sources/manufacturers that were used in different XOOMs.
Sources:
http://galaxytablife.com/2011/06/eee-pad-transformer-vs-galaxy-tab-10-1-comparison/
http://www.tabletreaderinfo.com/content/Motorola-Xoom-Tablet-Review/Screen.htm
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4191/motorola-xoom-review-first-honeycomb-tablet-arrives/2
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1291980086
The most important things to me on a tablet screen:
1. Color reproduction. Is it uniform and even? This leads me to
2. Viewing angles, top, bottom, left and right. Does the screen stay relatively sharp or does the image dissolve/wash out?
3. No back-light bleed. This is inexcusable regardless of the lectures people spout out about it being inherent to the technology. It's not when the product is designed correctly.
The panel in the GTab 10.1 is beautiful. It meets my criteria where the xoom failed on all of them and the iPad failed miserably on back-light bleed.
Contrast ratio to me is just a number. I have tolerances for all my electronics devices and to me, the panel on the Samsung is the clear winner in the tablet race. Let's hope the build quality follows suit. I'm already starting to get annoyed at how long a full charge takes.
The screen looks amazing! The only thing I noticed is that the screen calibration is a
little bit oversaturated. I'm planning on using mine as a photography/design portfolio and have noticed color shift when compared to my calibrated monitor.
Sent from my GT-P7510 using XDA Premium App
I had Xooms (with both screen versions Auo and Sharp), an I pad and now a Galaxy Tab 10.1 and the screen on my tab is far and awy better than all of them.
The Xoom has 2 screen fkavors, Sharp and Auo optronics. the screen mfg by Sharp had much better color saturation and better contrast, but unfortunately for me, a ton of light bleed due to a defect in the panel.
Specs only tell part of the story.
Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk
lordwinkevin said:
The screen looks amazing! The only thing I noticed is that the screen calibration is a
little bit oversaturated. I'm planning on using mine as a photography/design portfolio and have noticed color shift when compared to my calibrated monitor.
Sent from my GT-P7510 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When Samsung releases the kernel source, supercurio can start developing his Voodoo Sound and Screen tweaks for the SGT 10.1, which will make color reproduction much more realistic.
I'm new with android and this is awesome to hear. I also own the iPad 2 and Datacolor made an in app color calibrated picture viewer called SpyderGallery but an overall screen color calibration would be awesome!
Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1
matt310 said:
The most important things to me on a tablet screen:
1. Color reproduction. Is it uniform and even? This leads me to
2. Viewing angles, top, bottom, left and right. Does the screen stay relatively sharp or does the image dissolve/wash out?
3. No back-light bleed. This is inexcusable regardless of the lectures people spout out about it being inherent to the technology. It's not when the product is designed correctly.
The panel in the GTab 10.1 is beautiful. It meets my criteria where the xoom failed on all of them and the iPad failed miserably on back-light bleed.
Contrast ratio to me is just a number. I have tolerances for all my electronics devices and to me, the panel on the Samsung is the clear winner in the tablet race. Let's hope the build quality follows suit. I'm already starting to get annoyed at how long a full charge takes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I threw these numbers out there because, so far, almost all the info on PLS panels used in the Galaxy Tab 10.1 has been primarily subjective. Its totally new technology.
However, recently, Samsung has started to develop the PLS Panels for use in stand-alone computer monitors, and some reviewers are beginning to analyze and reveiw the technology. This is a really interesting article, and "sheds some light" (to make a bad pun) on the PLS panel technology used in the Galaxy Tab 10.1, how it works and some of its pros and cons:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/samsung-sa850.html
Remember this is a stand alone PLS monitor, so one would expect its performance would exceed that of an integrated tablet screen, but they found a contrast ration of only 545:1. Thats pretty bad in my opinion. They try to theorize why this occurs:
"The low contrast ratio may be due to the poor uniformity of the backlight. The picture based on the results of my measurements shows a bright spot in the center of the screen, just where I measured the contrast ratio. That spot is not as bright as the bottom left corner, though.
Although the extent of the variation in brightness is exaggerated in the picture for illustrative purposes, the monitor is obviously far from ideal, especially with black. Talking about the exact numbers, the average nonuniformity of brightness for black is 8% whereas the maximum deflection from the base level is as high as 45%! For white, the average and maximum are 3.6% and 8.3%, respectively. It’s hard to say why the monitor is so good with white and so poor with black....."
So, disturbingly, they found the first dedicated PLS prototype monitor to have POOR contrast ratio!! Not what you would expect. They theorize that it might be due to poor backlighting, but it is worrisome.
To summarize what the reviewers found after examining this prototype PLS monitor:
Highs:
•Low response time, good color rendering, excellent viewing angles
•Full coverage of the sRGB color space
Lows
•Low contrast ratio
•Poor uniformity of backlight for black
If this review is accurate, these first panels seem to show that the PLS technology is good, but not great. Its an OK alternative to IPS but really not that stellar in its performance. Its biggest advantage seems to be that it is a cheap alternatative to IPS that has much better viewing angles.
Remember, one of the biggest selling points cited by Samsung was cost! Its cheaper to produce than IPS. That may be a larger motivation to Samsung than increased performance.
Of course, how this translates to the performance of our own toys is debateable, but its something to think about beyond the subjective impressions we have already heard.
That's definitely interesting. Perhaps the larger the panel, the greater the difficulty in achieving a uniform amount of back-light. I have definitely experienced this with clouding and flash-lighting on TV sets (and mainly the reason I switched to plasma - I'd rather roll the dice with image retention than sit and stare at uneven back-lighting during movies)
Have you read about the issues Samsung's having with the panel thickness on the GTab 8.9? There's not much other than a translated-from-Korean report, but it seems the company (and panel suppliers) use a very thin "G1F" touch panel for the 10.1, and may be forced to use a (40%!) thicker application (GFF) for the GTab 8.9 due to either shortages in supply or complications in the manufacturing process.
^I think that bit is a key factor when comparing display performance - anything that sits on top of the actual pixels will contribute to the clarity of the content being displayed. Here's the article: http://tablets-planet.com/2011/06/10/samsung-to-use-lower-quality-dispalys-on-some-galaxy-tab-8-9s/
matt310 said:
That's definitely interesting. Perhaps the larger the panel, the greater the difficulty in achieving a uniform amount of back-light. I have definitely experienced this with clouding and flash-lighting on TV sets (and mainly the reason I switched to plasma - I'd rather roll the dice with image retention than sit and stare at uneven back-lighting during movies)
Have you read about the issues Samsung's having with the panel thickness on the GTab 8.9? There's not much other than a translated-from-Korean report, but it seems the company (and panel suppliers) use a very thin "G1F" touch panel for the 10.1, and may be forced to use a (40%!) thicker application (GFF) for the GTab 8.9 due to either shortages in supply or complications in the manufacturing process.
^I think that bit is a key factor when comparing display performance - anything that sits on top of the actual pixels will contribute to the clarity of the content being displayed. Here's the article: http://tablets-planet.com/2011/06/10/samsung-to-use-lower-quality-dispalys-on-some-galaxy-tab-8-9s/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. Very interesting article. Especially considering that there has been a lot of talk about the quality control of the existing 10.1 panels. There have been threads about moisture under the screen, dust under the screen, lots of people with dead pixels. Haven't encountered nearly so many screen anomalies in other device forums. Wonder if that's the reason the GTAB 10.1 is so scarce in many places. Perhaps there are problems producing the 10.1 screens.
Oh and I went Plasma for all my TV's as well for the same reason, in addition to the faster response time. Even my video gaming TV is a Plasma. And I have never had a single problem with image retention.
Edit: Looks like another website has an article about the screen supply problem, only this time relating specifically to the GTAB 10.1. They speculate on a change in GTAB thickness if they can't make enough of the screens.
http://www.slashgear.com/samsung-galaxy-tab-10-1-to-be-thicker-than-ipad-2-due-to-supply-shortage-10158766/
Maybe soon there will be THREE versions of the GTAB 10.1: The 10.1, the 10.1v and the 10.1 series 2 extra thick!
I just found dust on my screen. Its definitely behind the glass panel.
Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1
Slashgear is rife with editorial errors. that article misquotes the one I linked earlier. They even have published content that indicates it's the 8.9 and not the 10.1 affected but the different panel thickness:
http://www.slashgear.com/galaxy-tab...tter-screen-in-some-areas-at-launch-10158611/
Either way, I doubt the US will see the thicker screen - they continued shipping AMOLED phone displays here despite a worldwide shortage, causing many other markets to receive Super LCD screens instead.
http://www.mobileburn.com/19548/new...ed-displays-last-longer-thats-why-we-use-them
Samsung announced its new Galaxy S III smartphone to great fanfare last week, though some observers weren't terribly happy with one particular feature: the 4.8-inch 720p Super AMOLED display uses a PenTile(INFO) subpixel layout instead of the generally more favorable RGB(INFO) layout. At CTIA 2012, we spoke to Samsung about its choice to use PenTile layouts in a large number of its displays, and the answer really comes down to durability and longevity.
Ever since the original Galaxy S in 2010, Samsung has used AMOLED(INFO) (usually branded as Super AMOLED or Super AMOLED Plus) displays in many of its high-end smartphones, and many consumers are big fans of them. AMOLED screens have tremendous contrast, very saturated and vibrant colors, and extremely wide viewing angles. Devices that feature AMOLED displays have a certain 'wow' factor when you first look at them, and many users appreciate that, even if the displays don't provide the most accurate color reproduction. Samsung says that it fully believes AMOLED displays are the best for its mobile devices, and that's why it uses them time and again.
However AMOLED isn't without its faults. Displays that use AMOLED technology have a tendency to deteriorate over time. One doesn't have to look back that far to remember the problems Google had with the original Nexus One smartphone, which featured an AMOLED screen. There were numerous reports of screen deterioration after only a few months of use, and in some cases the display was rendered unusable (HTC, the maker of the Nexus One, eventually switched to using Super LCD displays in later versions of the phone, though it cited supply constraints as the reason for the switch).
Samsung's Philip Berne explained to me that the blue subpixels on AMOLED displays actually degrade the fastest - quicker than the red or green subpixels. With a PenTile layout, the subpixels are arranged RGBG (red, green, blue, green), so they feature more green subpixels and fewer red or blue subpixels than an RGB stripe layout with the same resolution. Because of this, AMOLED displays that have the PenTile layout tend to have a longer lifespan than those with RGB layouts. Since Samsung is selling its phones to users that usually keep them for 18 months or longer, it has to be sure that the display will still offer peak performance at that time. According to the company, PenTile AMOLED displays have proven to be more reliable than those with RGB layouts.
Those that have issues with the PenTile arrangement usually complain that the screen does not look as crisp as an RGB display or that there is odd color fringing along the edges of images, such as app icons. While Berne did agree that the PenTile arrangement's faults are pronounced at lower resolutions, such as qHD or WVGA, high-resolution displays hide the problems due to the sheer density of pixels. The Galaxy S III and the Galaxy Note, for example, both feature high-resolution Super AMOLED displays with PenTile subpixel arrangements (the Galaxy S III has a 1280 x 720 pixel screen, while the Note has a 1280 x 800 pixel display). Under a microscope, one can see the pixel layout on these displays, but in real-world use, it is not visible to the vast majority of users. To that point, the Galaxy S II, which had a lower-resolution WVGA (800 x 480 pixel) display, featured an RGB layout for its subpixels.
Today's choice to use PenTile in its high-end Super AMOLED displays doesn't mean that Samsung isn't working on or won't develop future AMOLED displays that use the RGB pixel layout, provided it can maintain reliability across the board. In fact, the Samsung Galaxy Tab 7.7 tablet features a 7.7-inch Super AMOLED Plus display with 1280 x 800 pixels and an RGB pixel layout, though that screen is obviously larger than what we see on smartphones, thereby making any PenTile-related issues more noticeable.
Is the PenTile subpixel layout something that should be a concern for prospective buyers of the new Galaxy S III? We really don't think so, and in our hands-on time with the device, we really could not see any issues with the screen. Trust me, I tried. Berne did point out that the 4.8-inch display on the Galaxy S III is improved over the 4.65-inch 720p Super AMOLED screen used on the Google Galaxy Nexus, as it features smaller gaps in its subpixel matrix, further minimizing the fringing effects of the PenTile layout.
Some reviewers and users may disagree, and contend that "once you see the PenTile, you can't unsee it," but we really think that the average smartphone buyer (the people that Samsung is actually selling the phone to) will never be the wiser. Additionally, as smartphones get higher and higher density displays, the argument over PenTile and RGB subpixel layouts will become less and less relevant. Are we going to be discussing this matter when smartphones with 1080p displays, perhaps some with PenTile subpixel layouts, come out in the next year or so? We really doubt it.
i wont believe that unless it comes straight from a Samsung press release article
I would say this is a make over from samsung, simply the technology is not ready for mass production hence the pentile.
Thinking about buying one.
Why?
1) Getting blind in my old age, well not blind but I need reading glasses
2) Bigger screen should be more natural with magazines
3) Has Android 4.4 (now I know I can root install custom ROMs etc... but I also had bad luck doing this with tablets)
Two questions,
It is only 2 inches bigger does that two inches make it much harder to travel with?
It runs the latest Android, does it run better?
It is expensive and I which when I bought my Note 10.1 (2014) .... what 3 months ago I knew this was coming.
has crossed my mind as well, I do a lot of reading/surfing/viewing and I don't really take it out much
saw one in a shop ...not exactly cheap not sure worth the extra coin being asked
spacecat said:
has crossed my mind as well, I do a lot of reading/surfing/viewing and I don't really take it out much
saw one in a shop ...not exactly cheap not sure worth the extra coin being asked
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Personal preference of course. Some things to consider.
It's huge and comparatively heavy.
The N10.1-14 is getting 4.4 and M-UX; it's already listed as a feature on Samsung's commerce sites. It won't get the Pro features but you can download the most meaningful, Hancom Office, in the app sub-forum here. There was some question about a modified version of the Tab/Note|Pro s/w because we have a menu button and those devices have replaced it with a task button. N12 owners have reported that long-pressing the task button provides the menu function we have which means it's one set of s/w with different button function mapping. Other than the remainder of missing Pro features the only two other unique features to the N12 are four multiview windows (vs. our two) and an expanded keyboard with FN, ALT, CTRL keys.
The N12 has an inferior display because the same pixel count that's on the N10.1-14 is stretched out over a larger area. The N12 has a gross PPI of 247 compared to 299 on the N10.1-14. Both use a RGBW PenTile display which means the net RGB pixel count is 227 and the N10.1-14's is at 274. The iPad Air is 264. A couple of reviewers have mentioned seeing a difference between the Tab|Pro 8.4/10.1 and N10.1-14's displays when compared to the N12.
It's got a bigger battery and will outlast the N10.1-14. But the Exynos N10.1-14's take forever to charge so increase that even more for the N12.
It's got USB 3.0 but it does nothing to improve charging time and increases data transfer rates on Windows (only) PCs that are USB 3.0 equipped.
So in the end, especially after the N10.1-14 gets its updates, there's not a lot of difference between the two h/w and s/w wise with the biggest exception being a fairly low (for a 1080P display) net RGB pixel count of 227 on the N12. For reference the N2's 720P display had a net PPI of 267.
Happy deciding.
Where is the downloads of the hanscom?
Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk
AstroDigital said:
Thinking about buying one.
Why?
1) Getting blind in my old age, well not blind but I need reading glasses
2) Bigger screen should be more natural with magazines
3) Has Android 4.4 (now I know I can root install custom ROMs etc... but I also had bad luck doing this with tablets)
Two questions,
It is only 2 inches bigger does that two inches make it much harder to travel with?
It runs the latest Android, does it run better?
It is expensive and I which when I bought my Note 10.1 (2014) .... what 3 months ago I knew this was coming.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's really nice. I don't think the extra size makes it harder to travel with. It is noticeably larger, and you see it the most when holding it with one hand while tapping and navigating with the other. Because it is larger and heavier, there's a lopsided weight to it to where it feels like it's trying to twist out of your hand. Nothing overly dramatic, but you do notice it every time. Unlike the Note 10.1 where your hand covers a larger part of the device and so there is less / none of that feeling. Any type of case etc would most likely mitigate the issue. Other than that the screen is beautiful, sure it may be lower density but nothing I ever noticed after using the Note 12.2. You'll really appreciate the larger nature of text and graphics however, and that is priceless.
BarryH_GEG said:
[*]The N12 has an inferior display because the same pixel count that's on the N10.1-14 is stretched out over a larger area. The N12 has a gross PPI of 247 compared to 299 on the N10.1-14. Both use a RGBW PenTile display which means the net RGB pixel count is 227 and the N10.1-14's is at 274. The iPad Air is 264. A couple of reviewers have mentioned seeing a difference between the Tab|Pro 8.4/10.1 and N10.1-14's displays when compared to the N12.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
May I ask how did you get the net PPI figure?
Note 10.1 has an RGBW matrix made of ~4 Mpixels (2560x1600).
This equals to the same subpixel count as a ~2.7 Mpixel RGB panel (PenTile only have 2 subpixels per pixel compared to RGB's full 3 subpixels)
Which means that our Note's effective resolution is 1306x2090.
So the hypotenuse of the panel (via the pythahorean theorem) equals to the equivalent of 2464 RGB pixels
Which finally means that we have an effective 244 PPI (2464.5/10.1)
Which is lower than Ipad's but higher than other 10.1 inch android's. iPad's screen also consumes far less battery has (arguably) better colours and most importantly does not suffer from the grayish blacks we suffer. In short if you want the best "large" panel in the market you have to go to Apple, for everything else our note is the best deal.
Stevethegreat said:
So the hypotenuse of the panel (via the pythahorean theorem).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seriously?
The effective PPI of the N10.1-14's display is 299 PPI. It's achieved somewhat by slight of hand by using combinations of sub-pixels to create the illusion of more. That's the very definition of PenTile whose impact varies greatly based on implementation. My simple formula is essentially just factoring in the loss of 25% of the RGB sub-pixels to the added white ones and distributing the lost pixels across each of red, green, and blue. .
From WiKi...
PenTile RGBW technology, used in LCD, adds an extra subpixel to the traditional red, green and blue subpixels that is a clear area without color filtering material and with the only purpose of letting backlight come through, hence W for white. This makes it possible to produce a brighter image compared to an RGB-matrix while using the same amount of power, or produce an equally bright image while using less power.
The PenTile RGBW layout uses each red, green, blue and white subpixel to present high-resolution luminance information to the human eyes' red-sensing and green-sensing cone cells, while using the combined effect of all the color subpixels to present lower-resolution chroma (color) information to all three cone cell types. Combined, this optimizes the match of display technology to the biological mechanisms of human vision.[13] The layout uses one third fewer subpixels for the same resolution as the RGB stripe (RGB-RGB) layout, in spite of having four color primaries instead of the conventional three, using subpixel rendering combined with metamer rendering. Metamer rendering optimizes the energy distribution between the white subpixel and the combined red, green, and blue subpixels: W <> RGB, to improve image sharpness.
The display driver chip has an RGB to RGBW color vector space converter and gamut mapping algorithm, followed by metamer and subpixel rendering algorithms. In order to maintain saturated color quality, to avoid simultaneous contrast error between saturated colors and peak white brightness, while simultaneously reducing backlight power requirements, the display backlight brightness is under control of the PenTile driver engine. When the image is mostly desaturated colors, those near white or grey, the backlight brightness is significantly reduced, often to less than 50% peak, while the LCD levels are increased to compensate. When the image has very bright saturated colors, the backlight brightness is maintained at higher levels. The PenTile RGBW also has an optional high brightness mode that doubles the brightness of the desaturated color image areas, such as black&white text, for improved outdoor view-ability.RGBW is funky in that when displaying certain fully saturated colors (yellow and green have been given as examples) on a white background there's some granularity issues on hard graphics edges.
Also from WiKi...
However, for the same resolution and size the PenTile screen can appear grainy, pixelated, speckled, with blurred text on some saturated colors and backgrounds when compared to RGB stripe color. This effect is understood to be caused by the restriction of the number of subpixels that may participate in the image reconstruction when the color is fully saturated. In the RGBW case, this is caused as the W subpixel will not be available in order to maintain the saturated color. For all other cases, text and especially full color images are fully reconstructed.The impact of PenTile depends on PPI and even more so on visual acuity - the point at which the viewer's vision intersects one arcminute. For people with 20/20 vision holding a device the typical 10-12" away you can't see that the N10.1-14's display is PenTile; at least from a clarity perspective. Some people here with 20/10 vision have seen the RGBW saturation issue. I, with 20/20 vision, haven't.
Here's an interesting article talking about PPI and its impact on various content...
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/10/1080p-on-a-smartphone-screencan-it-possibly-matter/
Here's an interesting article talking about visual acuity in the context of Apple naming their display "retina"...
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review/4
The pixel race explored...
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7743/the-pixel-density-race-and-its-technical-merits
BarryH_GEG said:
Seriously?
The effective PPI of the N10.1-14's display is 299 PPI. It's achieved somewhat by slight of hand by using combinations of sub-pixels to create the illusion of more. That's the very definition of PenTile whose impact varies greatly based on implementation. My simple formula is essentially just factoring in the loss of 25% of the RGB sub-pixels to the added white ones and distributing the lost pixels across each of red, green, and blue. .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I honestly don't get your point, a rectangle is made of two triangles whose hypotenuse is the diagonal of said rectangle, which is why one can use the pythagorean theorem to find the diagonal's pixel count.
As for the rest I calculated what's the effective PPI of our device is in RGB terms, again I don't see where I'm wrong. I called it effective because most screens use an RGB panel. A 1306x2090 panel produces exactly the same sub-pixel count as our note. Now due to subpixels' placing one may see a different picture altogether, but holding our note side by side with an Ipad it is more pixilated, which shows to me that the 299 number is literally meaningless since we are talking about a different screen tech...
Stevethegreat said:
I honestly don't get your point, a rectangle is made of two triangles whose hypotenuse is the diagonal of said rectangle, which is why one can use the pythagorean theorem to find the diagonal's pixel count.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah I would have done it the same way Stevethegreat did. But I'm not familiar with how they create the illusion of more subpixels.
I am debating which one to get- the note 10.1 2014 or the tab pro 12.2. Does the screen size make it a must have?
Sent from my LG-VS980 using xda app-developers app
I wanted to get the Note Pro 12.2 until I saw the price (am in Bangkok):
29,900 baht (~$930). I love my Note 10.1 2014.
Stevethegreat said:
May I ask how did you get the net PPI figure?
Note 10.1 has an RGBW matrix made of ~4 Mpixels (2560x1600).
This equals to the same subpixel count as a ~2.7 Mpixel RGB panel (PenTile only have 2 subpixels per pixel compared to RGB's full 3 subpixels)
Which means that our Note's effective resolution is 1306x2090.
So the hypotenuse of the panel (via the pythahorean theorem) equals to the equivalent of 2464 RGB pixels
Which finally means that we have an effective 244 PPI (2464.5/10.1)
Which is lower than Ipad's but higher than other 10.1 inch android's. iPad's screen also consumes far less battery has (arguably) better colours and most importantly does not suffer from the grayish blacks we suffer. In short if you want the best "large" panel in the market you have to go to Apple, for everything else our note is the best deal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Stevethegreat said:
I honestly don't get your point, a rectangle is made of two triangles whose hypotenuse is the diagonal of said rectangle, which is why one can use the pythagorean theorem to find the diagonal's pixel count.
As for the rest I calculated what's the effective PPI of our device is in RGB terms, again I don't see where I'm wrong. I called it effective because most screens use an RGB panel. A 1306x2090 panel produces exactly the same sub-pixel count as our note. Now due to subpixels' placing one may see a different picture altogether, but holding our note side by side with an Ipad it is more pixilated, which shows to me that the 299 number is literally meaningless since we are talking about a different screen tech...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You guys do know that a rgbw pentile display doesnt render images in full pixels like a rgb panel right? Thus making a comparison of the two technologies a pissing contest at best. A rgbw panel renders images at the subpixel level using any arrangement of the subpixels to achieve the desired image (in a way more natural and easier on the human eye) whereas a rgb renders images using the entire pixel (all 3 subpixels as a solid unit) it takes a rgbw display 1/3 less subpixels to display the same resolution image with no loss of image quality. Yes if you jam your face into the thing you will notice the pixels slightly sooner than a rgb. All that means is you look less like an idiot while pixel peeping with the rgbw. On text you will never notice a difference. One of the biggest electronics companies of all time keeps using pentile panels and keeps getting great screen reviews in its products. Shut the stupid pentile assault down. I cant even recall a reviewer knocking any of these screens. At normal viewing distance they are marvelous. If you dont use it at a normal distance congratulations your the minority that uses his tablet pressed to his face. Oh the and the "slight" loss of sharpness on the display in comparison to the note 2014 is made up for by a larger screen used FARTHER AWAY meaning that with normal vision no discernable difference. And lastly in what universe have you compared the note 10.1 to the ipad air and found the note more pixelated? Even factoring the lost pixel count (BarryH_GEG is right) the note is superior to the ipad. The rgbw panel doesnt need the extra pixels because it looks just as good without them. And if it looks just as good whats your problem?
Op the 12.2 offers alot more screen real estate. It is a bit heavier but unless you have lost tge ability to wipe yourself you will easily be able to carry it around. My 90 year old grandmother still carries an ipad 3 (same weight). The screen is very efficient and this tablet is consistently beating the ipad air in battery tests. It will take awhile to charge if you allow it to drain all the way. Which you shouldn't do. Charge it when not in use and you will be fine. 4.4 is smoother and the pro features are nice. I would also point out that the charging port is on the side making use while charging much easier. If you are intrigued by its size try it out. Worst case you return it.
Sorry guys for ranting but I keep seeing the same false information over and over again. Your splitting hairs between ridiculously good and slightly more ridiculously good and smaller.......just like that stupid 4:3 is better for reading thing. (IT IS NOT IN ANY WAY BETTER)
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---------- Post added at 02:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 AM ----------
Oh please notice the only time you can tell the difference is text against a fully saturated background.
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---------- Post added at 02:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 AM ----------
Also from Nouvoyance (a company owned by samsung doing their r&d for rgbw pentile displays) the are pursuing pentile because it relies on technology that tskes advantage of the human eyes natural mechanisms. Samsung obviously believes that pentile is the way of the future. they seem to be selling the idea very well.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
@ Duly.noted: OK I get you dislike of ipad and it is not without merit but I was comparing the sub pixel count of our device with that of ipad's and unlike what BarryH_GEG said my calculations are not wrong, you said it yourself we have 1/3rd less subpixels. Now I often keep my tablet at a distance of 8-10 inches close to my eyes. Granted I keep it closer than most people, and also -granted- text looks better but everything else *doesn't* and *that's* my point, technically we have a worse screen but to most people it is just fine. It is not splitting hairs though, I would much prefer ipad's panel but then I would lose android's flexibility and the spen
As an experiment put a red text in a yellow background and *tell* me that it looks the same to you (same clarity) as in an ipad, because it sure as hell doesn't to me.
Anyway, this thread is about Note 12.2, so imagine it as a thought experiment in an even larger more spread out fashion. Again to many people this is splitting hairs but I think it is more important to let more people learn of the impact of pentile technology than simply call the panel a 2560 x1600 panel and be done with it. I'm surely not as happy to learn about it *after* I bought the tablet, but you're right it may not be that big of a deal, the biggest deal by far (for me) was/is the "milky" blacks and the atrocious gamma raise when looked at from different angles, both not expected from a panel of this calibre. I sure hope that note 12.2 have/had this issue fixed, because especially in such a large panel it would make quite an impact to its picture quality. Much more than the pentile arrangement would (even in principle) be able to make.
Duly.noted said:
Sorry guys for ranting but I keep seeing the same false information over and over again. Your splitting hairs between ridiculously good and slightly more ridiculously good and smaller.......just like that stupid 4:3 is better for reading thing. (IT IS NOT IN ANY WAY BETTER)
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Yes you are ranting, fine if you want to do that, but your rant has almost nothing to do with the post you quoted. It it not about false information, whether the screen was good enough, nor 4:3 ratio. It is about methodology for calculating PPI. That may be interesting for someone comparing a Tab Pro 12.2, Note 10.1 2014, or an ipad.
ddzado said:
I am debating which one to get- the note 10.1 2014 or the tab pro 12.2. Does the screen size make it a must have?
Sent from my LG-VS980 using xda app-developers app
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Here's my input. I had the Note 12.2 for about a week. I returned it without hesitation for the Note 10.1 (14). Why?
1. It's heavier. I came from an original Tab 10.1 and one would think that 4 ounces more isn't a big deal. That's what I kept telling myself. Yet it is. My hand got tired holding it very quickly where it never got tired holding the 10.1.
2. It's larger. Well, you say, that's the point isn't it? Yeah, but there's an odd thing about it being larger, it's harder to hold it. If you remember your physics class then you'll understand that the center of gravity for the 12.2 moves further from the hand than the 10.1. Throw in 4 ounces more weight and the torque applied to the hand makes it uncomfortable to hold in one hand.
3. The screen is just bigger, not better. The apps don't use the real estate better. They're just larger. It's like putting larger buttons on a pushbutton phone. You don't get more buttons, you just get larger ones. It's the same with your TV. A 50" screen has the exact same number of pixels and resolution as a 40" screen, just larger. Now, for us folks getting older one would think that this would be a good thing. It wasn't. It just didn't feel right.
4. Magazine UX. It was fun. For about 30 minutes. Because it was so limited I found it to be boring after a short period of time. I installed Apex.
5. When I combined it with a Zagg hard keyboard case it did a fine job as a desktop device. The keyboard was full sized and easy to use. Felt great. But, then I found myself pulling out my 15.6" laptop for those times instead. After all, if 12.2 is good on the desktop 15.6 is better.
6. One thing that I really liked on the larger screen was the ability to have up to 4 apps running at once. Mult-apps feels cramped on the 10.1" screen and it felt much better on the 12.2" screen.
My comments here are very personal and may only apply to me. They're intended to be a "heads up." Here's what I'd recommend to anyone thinking about getting a 12.2" tablet. Buy it at Best Buy or any other brick and mortar store that permits easy returns. Try it out, you'll know in a few days if it's for you. If you don't like it just return it. No harm done. (Don't do this at Fry's, they charge a 15% restocking fee.)
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Side note on PPI:
PPI doesn't matter. Look at the screen. Run the apps you normally use. Do you like what you see? Yes? That's all that matters. Period.
TabGuy said:
Here's my input. I had the Note 12.2 for about a week. I returned it without hesitation for the Note 10.1 (14). Why?
1. It's heavier. I came from an original Tab 10.1 and one would think that 4 ounces more isn't a big deal. That's what I kept telling myself. Yet it is. My hand got tired holding it very quickly where it never got tired holding the 10.1.
2. It's larger. Well, you say, that's the point isn't it? Yeah, but there's an odd thing about it being larger, it's harder to hold it. If you remember your physics class then you'll understand that the center of gravity for the 12.2 moves further from the hand than the 10.1. Throw in 4 ounces more weight and the torque applied to the hand makes it uncomfortable to hold in one hand.
3. The screen is just bigger, not better. The apps don't use the real estate better. They're just larger. It's like putting larger buttons on a pushbutton phone. You don't get more buttons, you just get larger ones. It's the same with your TV. A 50" screen has the exact same number of pixels and resolution as a 40" screen, just larger. Now, for us folks getting older one would think that this would be a good thing. It wasn't. It just didn't feel right.
4. Magazine UX. It was fun. For about 30 minutes. Because it was so limited I found it to be boring after a short period of time. I installed Apex.
5. When I combined it with a Zagg hard keyboard case it did a fine job as a desktop device. The keyboard was full sized and easy to use. Felt great. But, then I found myself pulling out my 15.6" laptop for those times instead. After all, if 12.2 is good on the desktop 15.6 is better.
6. One thing that I really liked on the larger screen was the ability to have up to 4 apps running at once. Mult-apps feels cramped on the 10.1" screen and it felt much better on the 12.2" screen.
My comments here are very personal and may only apply to me. They're intended to be a "heads up." Here's what I'd recommend to anyone thinking about getting a 12.2" tablet. Buy it at Best Buy or any other brick and mortar store that permits easy returns. Try it out, you'll know in a few days if it's for you. If you don't like it just return it. No harm done. (Don't do this at Fry's, they charge a 15% restocking fee.)
---------- Post added at 07:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 AM ----------
Side note on PPI:
PPI doesn't matter. Look at the screen. Run the apps you normally use. Do you like what you see? Yes? That's all that matters. Period.
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So I'm hoping to try all this out and see if it bothers me. I've never had a tablet before, but I've used the tablets of others.
I am hoping that I can root the thing and change a couple of the things you were mentioning. For example, I'm on a G2 right now, having the same issues with a bigger screen/apps are just bigger. I changed my LCD density (effectively the screen resolution) and now have a much better use of the real estate on the screen.
Another big test would be if the S-Pen works well on the Tab Pro (yes that's right Tab Pro). You would instantly save $100 minus the difference for buying a stylus. I don't care for the S-Pen software, just the handwriting capability.
I am also nervous about all the bloatware/UX that comes with it... I'm a guy that buys a phone and has it rooted/ROM'd before I go to bed. We'll see how long I last....
TabGuy said:
[/COLOR]Side note on PPI:
PPI doesn't matter. Look at the screen. Run the apps you normally use. Do you like what you see? Yes? That's all that matters. Period.
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Click to collapse
There are many of us who like to read , for many hours. Be it literature, articles, long emails. While a screen may look beautiful at first glance after long hours it can and will become tiresome if the PPI is below some threshold. As a reader PPI is the first I look for when buying a new tablet. Fortunately note's pentile handles text beautifully so I suspect it would not be a problem for note 12.2 either
ddzado said:
Another big test would be if the S-Pen works well on the Tab Pro (yes that's right Tab Pro). You would instantly save $100 minus the difference for buying a stylus. I don't care for the S-Pen software, just the handwriting capability.
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It won't work. The tab pro doesn't have an active digitizer. It wouldn't even work as a capacitive stylus. You'd just get nothing.
mustbepbs said:
It won't work. The tab pro doesn't have an active digitizer. It wouldn't even work as a capacitive stylus. You'd just get nothing.
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Well that blows. I mean.. you can draw with your finger... so why wouldn't any stylus work?
ddzado said:
Well that blows. I mean.. you can draw with your finger... so why wouldn't any stylus work?
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A capacitive stylus is made with a material that effects the electrical current of the touchscreen causing it to register as a touch in the same way a finger does. Pieces of metal will register as well. The spen is a active stylus. The tip is a nonconductive rubber or plastic tip and it affects the touchscreen using a magnetic field detected by the digitizer layer. This allows much greater accuracy and by increasing the magnetic force with a button sensitive to pressure allows pressure sensing. However, it would not function on any device that did not have either a resistive touchscreen or digitizer layer.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
The lack of AMOLED is currently the only reason I haven't switched to a Sony device yet, so I just wanted a thread to gauge interest in having AMOLED screens on future devices.
I know the pros and cons of both AMOLED and LCD/IPS so there's not much point discussing those unless you really want to.
Don't necessarily care for it. More interested in a 5.5 or 5.7 inch screen.
Amoled can be better for the battery but I dislike the screen burn that occurs after a year or so. (Can vary based on how much phone is used.)
Sent from my SM-G900P
AMOLED looks real nice but between burn in and extra battery drain on light colors, I'll stick with LCD.
Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk
I much prefer IPS over AMOLED. AMOLED is overly saturated and typically in a pentile subpixel arragement leading to an inferior amount of subpixels.
IPS is one of the reasons I prefer Sony devices.
I can still see the pixellation in AMOLED screens, even in the Galaxy S5. Most people don't notice it, but I do - and because I know it's there, it will always bother me. AMOLED has poor color reproduction, and the screen has the potential to burn in (review units at any big box store are almost invariably burned in, even after only two weeks of constantly being on).
IPS LCD is the only thing I will consider.
IPS+ LCD is the best vivid display with true-to-life colours, especially with x-reality and Triluminos display.
Gorgenapper said:
at any big box store are almost invariably burned in, even after only two weeks of constantly being on).
IPS LCD is the only thing I will consider.
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npaladin2000 said:
AMOLED looks real nice but between burn in and extra battery drain on light colors, I'll stick with LCD.
Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk
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Click to collapse
Burn in has stopped being a problem a long time ago. I have a Note 2, no burn in issues, nor on my Note 1 before, or Galaxy S2 or Galaxy S before that.
You should have the screen auto switch-off after 10 minutes (or less) anyway, it will just drain the battery. The reason you see demo models getting burn in is because they never switch the screen off. I thought that was obvious, but I guess not..
wrsg said:
Burn in has stopped being a problem a long time ago. I have a Note 2, no burn in issues, nor on my Note 1 before, or Galaxy S2 or Galaxy S before that.
You should have the screen auto switch-off after 10 minutes (or less) anyway, it will just drain the battery. The reason you see demo models getting burn in is because they never switch the screen off. I thought that was obvious, but I guess not..
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Right, but even if you don't consider burn-in, AMOLED definitely has it's tradeoffs. LG, Sony, Apple, HTC all use IPS LCD. Off the top of my head Samsung and Motorola are the only companies using AMOLED in high end devices, definitely the minority, not the majority.
Also keep in mind that the Note 2 does not use the typical pentile matrix that most AMOLED panels use
se1000 said:
Right, but even if you don't consider burn-in, AMOLED definitely has it's tradeoffs. LG, Sony, Apple, HTC all use IPS LCD. Off the top of my head Samsung and Motorola are the only companies using AMOLED in high end devices, definitely the minority, not the majority.
Also keep in mind that the Note 2 does not use the typical pentile matrix that most AMOLED panels use
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Just because it's the minority doesn't make it inherently bad. It's less used because it's more expensive, which is why Samsung and Motorola devices are usually more expensive than the others.
It has its tradeoffs but it also has benefits, less battery draw, more comfortable on the eyes, better contrast (imo). A lot of it is subjective, but I just want to raise awareness of the benefits and hopefully get more people asking the companies for AMOLED.
The day Sony introduce AMOLED, that's the day I will for sure stop supporting them.
Less battery draw is situational. Only when you're dealing with dark apps will there be less battery draw, since black pixels draw no power on AMOLED. Looking at Facebook or websites or other things with a lot of bright or white backgrounds requires more pixels to be lit up, thereby consuming more power.
Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk
npaladin2000 said:
Less battery draw is situational. Only when you're dealing with dark apps will there be less battery draw, since black pixels draw no power on AMOLED. Looking at Facebook or websites or other things with a lot of bright or white backgrounds requires more pixels to be lit up, thereby consuming more power.
Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk
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Click to collapse
Untrue
http://www.electronicsnews.com.au/news/oleds-ready-for-the-mainstream
wrsg said:
Untrue
http://www.electronicsnews.com.au/news/oleds-ready-for-the-mainstream
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That article was from TWO THOUSAND AND NINE!!!!!! A lot has changed for both technologies. Overall, I would say AMOLED and LCD are pretty close, with the edge actually going to LCD these days. Just lookup different devices with the same specs and look at screen on time figure. For example, the G2 had better screen on time figures than the S4 by a long shot (and I believe the S5 as well)
I'm in no way saying that AMOLED is bad by any means, I'm just saying that it isn't a superior technology either.
Personally as long as a screen has +400ppi it's really going to be sharp from any reasonable viewing distance. IPS has made strides in contrast ratio and color accuracy (gamut). AMOLED has improved in green/blue cast, and the ppi increases have negated the pentile issue.
In the end, a good screen is a good screen.
wrsg said:
Untrue
http://www.electronicsnews.com.au/news/oleds-ready-for-the-mainstream
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You should understand that battery drain doesn't only comprise of the display itself. You must take other things into considerations. (wakelock, background apps, etc.) And if you really talk about display wise, it's true that AMOLED display allows better saturation in terms of colours and also better contrast ratio due to the no-black-pixel lighting up, but on light surfaces it still suffers on battery drain. You want a phone without such issues? Just go back to Nokia 3310 then
And if AMOLED screen is as expensive as an IPS+ LCD screen, I suggest you go check with factories and see how much it's actually made. From my source, they would either practically be the same price, or IPS+ screen tends to be slightly more expensive.
Display is always personal preferences. I'd rather an IPS+ screen due to the natural colors that it produce and it really stands out on the Z2/Z3 as I had hands-on on both of them. And if you are going to discuss this, why not head towards the General Android section? There will be a hell lot of people which will be throwing a lot of facts out making you understand better. No point making this discussion here. Not like Sony will ever go for AMOLED display. They'd rather the real colors then over-saturated and unnatural colors.
I don't want a phone with AMOLED, because the color representation isn't accurate as IPS.
What I would like to see is a phone with LCD IPS display lightened by RGB LED, most LCD panels use WLED (white LED).
RGB LED increase the color representation and color contrast.
When you see small tracks on a solid color picture (from light blue to dark blue for example) it's a problem that RGB LED don't suffer from.
Sent from my Xperia Z2 using Tapatalk
I wouldn't say IPS is a deal breaker to me but, oh man, Z3 would be catching my attention much more with a Amoled display. I was using a Galaxy s4 and now I'm on moto g (gave the s4 to my wife) and I really miss the dark blacks. The blacks on ips is just a light gray.
As the Note4 Display has just been tested as the best mobile display currently available, there is no reasonable argument not to opt for AMOLED in the future - except availability and price.
This includes brightness, color accuracy AND brightness as well as efficiency!
Based on our extensive Lab tests and measurements, the Galaxy Note 4 is the Best performing Smartphone display that we have ever tested. It matches or breaks new records in Smartphone display performance for: Highest Absolute Color Accuracy, Highest Screen Resolution, Infinite Contrast Ratio, Highest Peak Brightness, Highest Contrast Rating in Ambient Light, and the smallest Brightness Variation with Viewing Angle. Its Color Management capability provides multiple Color Gamuts – a major advantage that is not currently provided by any of the other leading Smartphones
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http://www.displaymate.com/Galaxy_Note4_ShootOut_1.htm
Bäcker said:
As the Note4 Display has just been tested as the best mobile display currently available, there is no reasonable argument not to opt for AMOLED in the future - except availability and price.
This includes brightness, color accuracy AND brightness as well as efficiency!
http://www.displaymate.com/Galaxy_Note4_ShootOut_1.htm
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Indeed, people seem to be either grossly misinformed or because X brand uses LCD instead of OLED, they've either become a fanboy of the former or opponent of the latter. Samsung's newer AMOLEDs are hands down the best mobile displays available. There isn't even any competition, to claim otherwise is silly.
They offer far better blacks, contrast ratio (which is vital on a mobile - daylight and outdoors), much wider colour gamut (and accuracy) than any *mobile* IPS panel and lower power draw. Aside from this, pixel responsiveness is effectively instant; for motion, games and overall fluidity and responsiveness they are MASSIVELY better than IPS .. this is the reason the Samsung phones seem so smooth (not because they're faster or have some kind of software or driver based special sauce). Also, because the panel is less brittle, it's less likely to suffer catastrophic damage or the glass/plastic cover smash or crack. They also use fewer toxic substances than LCDs.
As far as I'm concerned, the only other game in town is Sharp's IZGO technology. This because it can potentially eliminate bezels much more easily than competing display tech (see latest Sharp phones), and it reduces IPS-like panels' power draw.
The Quantom Dot filters in Amazon's Kindle tablet do improve colours and blacks a little, but it's really expensive at the moment, and is perhaps a better partner for VA panels, which have much deeper blacks and better contrast than IPS (Sony uses QD filters in their Triluminos VA panel TVs). Also they use Cadmium Selenide, and Cadmium is a very nasty substance.
Emissive Quantum Dot (once they have eliminated Cadmium) is perhaps the holy grail, in a few years time, since it should have none of the longevity issues of OLEDs, and all of the low power, (potentially) low cost, high gamut, high responsiveness benefits.
Anyway, for now I'll be happy with my Z3 Compact that'll be arriving early next week, and use it to complement my Jolla, hopefully with a Sailfish port in due time .... but a Samsung AMOLED screen on a Z4 or 5 Compact would only make it more desirable, in my view.
mudnightoil said:
this is the reason the Samsung phones seem so smooth
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Frankly that is a laughable statement, as Samsung Android devices are anything but smooth given their TouchWIZ-based bloat.
mudnightoil said:
The Quantom Dot filters in Amazon's Kindle tablet do improve colours and blacks a little, but it's really expensive at the moment, and is perhaps a better partner for VA panels, which have much deeper blacks and better contrast than IPS (Sony uses QD filters in their Triluminos VA panel TVs).
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The Xperia Z3 is supposed to be using Triluminous technology that includes quantum dots. That will probably have to be confirmed once the phones are released, since in the past there have been Triluminous phones without incorporating quantum dots, but the possibility exists.
While there are some things I like about AMOLED, unless you have content optimized for it, it's very battery inefficient. And the most popular smartphone applications are generally things like Facebook, web browsing, and a few other things that still don't offer a "dark" mode optimized for AMOLED, that minimizes the number of lit background pixels. White backgrounds are not a friend of AMOLED. .