So, I saved all this memory. But the Wizard still allocates memory 50/50 for storage and programs. I open more and more programs, working down towards 0 for program memory and the storage memory still stands at 30MB.
:?: I'm cornfused.
Microsoft changed this behavior at some point, and I'm not sure I understand why (maybe to stop support calls from people who changed the defaults?)
I'm hoping that there's a registry hack to enable changing the ratios. MemMaid shows a slider for it, but it snaps back to 50/50 instantly.
Pre- Windows Mobile 5 devices used volatile RAM for program memory *and* for storage memory. Consequently, a loss of power (e.g. totally drained battery) would cause anything the user installed or stored in the storage memory to be lost.
The memory in WM5 devices is different to in pre-WM5 devices.
WM5 devices use "Persistant Memory Storage".
Program memory is volatile RAM, like in a PC. If power is lost, the contents of the RAM are lost.
Storage memory is non-volatile flash ROM. If power is lost, no data is lost.
I use this reg tweak to stop windows from moving the slider. I now leave the slider at 3 mb on the storage side. Hope this helps!! LuXx
Never defragment Memory
This tweak will make sure your memory will never be fragmented, for optimal memory use.
HKCU\SOFTWARE\MICROSOFT\SHELL
Create an empty key with the name "NeverDorkMemory"
Note that the "NeverDorkMemory" key has no effect on WM5:
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/for...iew=next&sid=d2056f3326ea430b21236fd42702f402
For more info on memory on WM5, have a look here:
http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2006/03/16/552996.aspx
So trying to synthesize all of this...
So... if I understand this correctly... with WM5:
1. There are several kinds of internal memory:
*Flash (persistent) memory, which in the control panel is called "Storage Memory." This includes installed programs and databases.
*ROM where the OS is for the most part (other than external patches) stored.
*RAM (volatile) memory, which in the control panel is called "Program Memory." Programs and data from Storage and ROM are loaded into RAM to actually run. This is why even a freshly reset device has a good hunk of RAM used to accommodate the OS.
2. RAM is NOT interchangeable with persistent storage, which is why the slider won't move in the control panel. Tweaking the registry will produce a superficial change of allowing the slider to move. But that has no actual effect on how memory is allocated.
3. This implies that saving "Storage Memory" by (a) UPX, (b) installing to a storage card, (c) or any other means available, will do absolutely nothing to improve "Program Memory".
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it. Unless you have a ton of data and app's, 40 MB on my Wizard, there is no reason to do that.
QUESTIONS:
1. Are the conclusions above correct? Is it best to just go ahead and install to the internal storage?
2. Are the caches stored in internal Storage, meaning that the old trick of moving the caches to the external Storage is no help? (Again, unless you have loads of data and app's)
3. Where does \Extended_ROM\ fit into all of this?
* Is this just another bank of persistent flash memory that has special protection (surviving hard reset)? Or is it somehow different?
* Does the amount of storage given to the extended ROM simply subtract out of the Storage memory? Or how does this work?
* Can you somehow adjust the memory allocation for the ext ROM?
* Is there any benefit of copying or locating certain files into ext ROM, other than CABs available for reinstall after a hard reset?
4. Is the ROM in fact a fixed storage bank independent of the others? Or can this be recovered to Storage memory?
WM2003's memory was, in contrast, quite simple to understand. I am still struggling to figure out how to best make use of the available memory in WM5, although I really love the benefits of persistent storage (which go way beyond the "iPaq File Store" included on the 6315 which wasn't of tremendous use.)
THANKS for any insights.
Someone really smart...
Can some really smart person give me some insights on this?
wgary said:
So... if I understand this correctly... with WM5:
1. There are several kinds of internal memory:
*Flash (persistent) memory, which in the control panel is called "Storage Memory." This includes installed programs and databases.
*ROM where the OS is for the most part (other than external patches) stored.
*RAM (volatile) memory, which in the control panel is called "Program Memory." Programs and data from Storage and ROM are loaded into RAM to actually run. This is why even a freshly reset device has a good hunk of RAM used to accommodate the OS.
2. RAM is NOT interchangeable with persistent storage, which is why the slider won't move in the control panel. Tweaking the registry will produce a superficial change of allowing the slider to move. But that has no actual effect on how memory is allocated.
3. This implies that saving "Storage Memory" by (a) UPX, (b) installing to a storage card, (c) or any other means available, will do absolutely nothing to improve "Program Memory".
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it. Unless you have a ton of data and app's, 40 MB on my Wizard, there is no reason to do that.
QUESTIONS:
1. Are the conclusions above correct? Is it best to just go ahead and install to the internal storage?
2. Are the caches stored in internal Storage, meaning that the old trick of moving the caches to the external Storage is no help? (Again, unless you have loads of data and app's)
3. Where does \Extended_ROM\ fit into all of this?
* Is this just another bank of persistent flash memory that has special protection (surviving hard reset)? Or is it somehow different?
* Does the amount of storage given to the extended ROM simply subtract out of the Storage memory? Or how does this work?
* Can you somehow adjust the memory allocation for the ext ROM?
* Is there any benefit of copying or locating certain files into ext ROM, other than CABs available for reinstall after a hard reset?
4. Is the ROM in fact a fixed storage bank independent of the others? Or can this be recovered to Storage memory?
WM2003's memory was, in contrast, quite simple to understand. I am still struggling to figure out how to best make use of the available memory in WM5, although I really love the benefits of persistent storage (which go way beyond the "iPaq File Store" included on the 6315 which wasn't of tremendous use.)
THANKS for any insights.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
`
Re: So trying to synthesize all of this...
wgary said:
*Flash (persistent) memory, which in the control panel is called "Storage Memory." This includes installed programs and databases.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct
wgary said:
*ROM where the OS is for the most part (other than external patches) stored.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is really the same section as the persistent memory - the difference is that this section is reserved and cannot be written to... it is truely read-only, unless you cook your own ROM and install that using a ROM installer (much like the AKU2 ROM update installer).
wgary said:
*RAM (volatile) memory, which in the control panel is called "Program Memory." Programs and data from Storage and ROM are loaded into RAM to actually run. This is why even a freshly reset device has a good hunk of RAM used to accommodate the OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nearly true. Only the bits that need to be in RAM get loaded into RAM - this does, obviously, include parts of the O/S, a good chunk of the Pocket Outlook services, the phone, and the majority of all drivers.
wgary said:
2. RAM is NOT interchangeable with persistent storage, which is why the slider won't move in the control panel. Tweaking the registry will produce a superficial change of allowing the slider to move. But that has no actual effect on how memory is allocated.
wgary said:
wgary said:
3. This implies that saving "Storage Memory" by (a) UPX, (b) installing to a storage card, (c) or any other means available, will do absolutely nothing to improve "Program Memory".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct.
wgary said:
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This really depends. If you have an application that does not make use of heavy I/O but is a fairly large install, you could very well install it on the MiniSD card to save storage on the main device. Keep in mind that the main device storage memory is fairly low (really stupid slow, imho) and that it's best reserved for those applications that, due to programmer error, fail to work when installed on the MiniSD card.
wgary said:
Unless you have a ton of data and app's, 40 MB on my Wizard, there is no reason to do that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you find you have enough space available on the main storage - then no, no point in installing to the MiniSD card.
wgary said:
1. Are the conclusions above correct? Is it best to just go ahead and install to the internal storage?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See above.
wgary said:
2. Are the caches stored in internal Storage, meaning that the old trick of moving the caches to the external Storage is no help? (Again, unless you have loads of data and app's)
wgary said:
on which caches you are referring to. There's a tweak to put the browser cache on the MiniSD card, which I think is a fine thing to do. I don't think there's any way to move the Messaging database file to the MiniSD card, though.
wgary said:
3. Where does \Extended_ROM\ fit into all of this?
* Is this just another bank of persistent flash memory that has special protection (surviving hard reset)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's the same persistent flash memory, just allocated to be the ROM part. It's not really ROM, as it can be reflashed using another ROM. The interchangeable use of "ROM" is really a bit confusing - think of the ROMs (both O/S as in AKU2 and Extended Rom) as being the Firmware instead.
wgary said:
* Does the amount of storage given to the extended ROM simply subtract out of the Storage memory?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It depends on the ROM/Extended ROM you're working with. Overall, it's a fixed portion - I don't recall the exact number. Depending on the ROM - e.g. Orange vs T-Mobile vs Qtek, there may be a bit of free space left that they didn't fill. Or, otherwise, the Extended ROM may contain applications that you have no use for, and you oculd remove those from the Extended ROM before reflashing. But just having this empty space or removing these applications you won't use won't free up any space for your own applications/files/etc.
What some people do, however, is to place their application(s) of choice in the Extended ROM instead. So, for example, say you don't want the anti-virus thing in the iMate ROM, but you're a regular user of Total Commander. You could replace the anti-virus thing with Total Commander in the Extended ROM (theoretically - no idea if it would fit.. just an example), and in that way 'save' space for other applications/files by not having to install Total Commander in the regular storage space.
wgary said:
* Can you somehow adjust the memory allocation for the ext ROM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think there's an easy way, no...
wgary said:
* Is there any benefit of copying or locating certain files into ext ROM, other than CABs available for reinstall after a hard reset?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See above... you wouldn't really place the CABs in there (if you just want them easily available for re-installation after a hard reset, place them on your MiniSD card instead), but the full programs.
wgary said:
4. Is the ROM in fact a fixed storage bank independent of the others?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's independent of the RAM bank, but otherwise the same for the regular storage.
wgary said:
Or can this be recovered to Storage memory?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not with any manner of easy a la a slider.
I think that overall, all of the above questions really just stem from one thing: we need more RAM and more storage space on these devices. I don't know why we're still limited to 64MB/128MB (half of which is the ROM/ExtROM) when memory is, quite frankly, cheap. I understand that with the MiniSD Card you can easily expand the storage space - but unfortunately there are tons of programmers out there who apparently code in such a way that their programs fail to run, or simply become buggy, when placed there. Some of this may be WM5's fault*, but I fail to see how for the majority of applications.
( * e.g. the SD card driver being loaded too late, so that any StartUp program relying on files on the SD card fails. This is really an issue of MS/OEMs wanting to make the device look faster to boot by presenting the OS before all drivers are done loading. )
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Hi,
this is my first post on this forum so probably it will be a little newb style but what the heck, I can't find the answer to my question so I will dig this topic out
ZeBoxx said:
wgary said:
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This really depends. If you have an application that does not make use of heavy I/O but is a fairly large install, you could very well install it on the MiniSD card to save storage on the main device. Keep in mind that the main device storage memory is fairly low (really stupid slow, imho) and that it's best reserved for those applications that, due to programmer error, fail to work when installed on the MiniSD card.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1) I believe it still remains true? I mean I'm using HTC Tytn and microSD ultra II card and still the internal flash memory is faster than the removable flash right? So until I got some space left on the internal memory for better performance I should install apps right there? Are there some recommendations to not fullfil this memory (ie. always leave 10% space on it)?
2) What about battery drain? Are there any significant differences in that aspect between those 2 memories?
is there a program, or a tweak that allows me to increase memory size, or manage memory from storage disk somehow? i need memory so my GPS igo8 can work properly
thanks
Nope, sorry but you only have a finite amount of ram. You can't steal any from the storage memory or from the memory card BUT you should be able to install IGO8 to the sd card... The maps are the biggest memory hogs though...
If you need ram then you need to see whats using it and shut that down with the taskmanager program. PLEASE NOTE - if you are using the stock rom then you may have heaps of carrier specific programs running that will eat up that precious ram...
Cheers...
Hi
I have installed a few programs on my TD2 - all to device rather than storage card - and am getting a little concerned that performance may be suffering. With my prevous device I used SK Tools to move apps to the card - but I'm not 100% clear whether this is good practice.
With nothing running, Settings reports 223.10 MB free for storage (75.29 in use) and 75.87 MD free for programs (108 in use). I have installed things like Sprite Backup and Terminator, ActivePrint, SPB FreeCell, MyLife Organized PocketPC Edition, Resco Sudoku Touch and Gaz TD2 Tools.
Really grateful for any advice.
Thanks
I don't see why installing programs to the device memory should cause performance to suffer? It's only available RAM memory which affects performance, and this remains the same whether you instal to the device or to the card. It's when you open, and leave open, several programs at once that performance suffers.
The nice thing about modern phones is the amount of internal storage, which is plenty for masses of programs. The only performance issue you may have is when downloading large files with Internet Explorer, as I think it uses internal storage as temporary space for the file being downloaded, even if you tell it to save to the memory card. I don't think Opera does this though.
Installing programs to the card means you can't "hot-swap" it unless you're absolutely sure all the programs are closed.
In addition to the above internal phone mem is faster than mem card so performance takes a hit if you use the card.
And you run the risk of more freezes and resets being needed.
It is my firm belief that the use of internal mem avoids a lot of hassles all round by making the phone more stable.
And I almost forgot that internal mem uses less battery power than mem cards.
Easy answer...
Use removable storage for data, on-board storage for apps.
If you have too many apps for on-board storage, consider a slimmer ROM for your phone. Remember on-board storage also works as RAM for your apps, so the more you have available, the more apps you can run.
DeathJester said:
Use removable storage for data, on-board storage for apps.
If you have too many apps for on-board storage, consider a slimmer ROM for your phone. Remember on-board storage also works as RAM for your apps, so the more you have available, the more apps you can run.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd check on that last statement if I were you!
The Topaz has 3 memory areas.
One for flashed ROM.
One for operating RAM.
AND one for storage.
It makes no difference how much you put in storage RAM.
It does make a difference how many apps are running at any one time in operating RAM.
A slimmer ROM image won't make much difference either.
How much of that ROM image is unnecessarily floating around in operating RAM at any one time will make a difference.
Go to settings/system/device information/hardware inforamation
I currently show
RAM size
288 MB
Flash memory size
512 MB
Storage size
342.47 MB
That's a lot of free storage available onboard that is just waiting to be used.
If you go into settings/system/memory you will find storage and program memory values displayed.
Install an app and the in use value of storage memory goes up.
Run an app and the in use value of program memory goes up.
Showing that they are two quite separate physical areas running "independantly" of each other.
Thanks!
Thanks for the helpful responses - much appreciated.
Andrew
werdna72 said:
Thanks for the helpful responses - much appreciated.
Andrew
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your welcome to any help we can give.
Is the phone's internal memory shared for both app-storage AND running processes? I had assumed they were separate memory pools.
I monitor my Running Services pretty closely and I can see the memory mgmt only trying to maintain about 18 MB free. The phone starts to lag if there's less than that so I would like to see more available, e.g. 30 MB! Would implementing A2SD achieve this? Again, I was under the impression that it would not. Other threads have specifically stated that A2SD has nothing at all to do with performance and instead is intended to make it easier to switch ROMs by maintaining all your installed apps on the SD card (apart from the memory you need to flash when changing ROMs)
Thank you for any clarification!
Internal memory has nothing to do with RAM, which is what running processes use.
You want auto killer. Can set your minimum memory free and forget it, and let android maintain it.
Sent from my HERO200 using XDA App