Database Users

Bonsai 4.0.0 thread closed??!?!? WTF?

Bonsai team just released v4.0.0 based on EC05. That's awesome!!
The thread was shortly thereafter closed by scotsman with the folling message
Thread closed until it complies with forum rules.
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With all due respect to scotsman and the other mods (and much is due), this sort of moderation is very frustrating to the community, and sure to create more work and headaches for you guys than simply expending a tiny, miniscule bit of additional effort when you take actions like this:
Explain specifically what the non-compliance is/was.
No one probably would care in the case of the five billionth "Samsung sucks" thread. On a thread like the Bonsai release thread, however, or any similarly popular argulably important (to the community) thread, it is only prudent to be a bit more explanatory when such a severe action is taken.
I was able to successfully get the release, of course. That's not the issue. I have some comments I'd like to post; a few questions too. Failing to see what rule violation has taken place, after reading the thread, I'm left confused, frustrated, and (right or wrong) feeling abused by the moderator (mildly so, to be sure).
Second, there seems to be a catch-22 here: If the thread is non-compliant somehow, and has been closed until it can be made compliant, one is left wondering: How can that happen if the thread is closed?
Scotsman, please update your closure post to help the community better understand what is going on. Save yourself, and the community, some grief. The effort is less than it will take to reply to this thread.

From my understanding it is because you have to register on their site to download it.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App

Correct. Download links are not supposed to be posted on sites that require registration. Not to mention the method they do so acts more like a shopping cart/buying system than a download system. It gives a very bad image, and they need to rectify it.

I mean this sincerely, but wouldn't it have been easier to PM the moderator who closed this so that your concerns could be addressed correctly and efficiently?

Honestly I'm glad it was closed. And if you register for that website, you'll see it's money money money, donate here, give us that there... if you want money for it, fine. Sell it. I already have to register for enough crap, I don't need to register for anymore.
Scotsman, keep up the great work that you do!

kelmar13 said:
I mean this sincerely, but wouldn't it have been easier to PM the moderator who closed this so that your concerns could be addressed correctly and efficiently?
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No.
Further, the answers provided here would not have been available to the community. I would have had to post a thread anyway with the answer, hence "not easier".
You may disagree that this information justifies public airing. That's fair. We simply disagree with each other.

But the moderator already said that it wasn't in compliance with forum rules....
Oh well, I'm not worried about it....

Seems petty that XDA is so closed a forum, considering it supports Android, which is supposed to be open source
I "may" understand if it was linking to somewhere where you HAD to pay, but the website only required you to register, not pay.
Seems no one is "allowed" to provide helpful links to anywhere else, kinda sad for an "open source" website.
Actions like that by Mods devastate a community even worse then even the harshest of trolls
Just another example why XDA has the bad rep it does.

byersbw said:
Honestly I'm glad it was closed. And if you register for that website, you'll see it's money money money, donate here, give us that there... if you want money for it, fine. Sell it. I already have to register for enough crap, I don't need to register for anymore.
Scotsman, keep up the great work that you do!
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I completely understand your POV, and it has merit. I don't agree with it (I find it quite easy to spend maybe 30 seconds registering and clicking past the entreaties to donate).
If it violates the forum rules, they should be enforced. I have no problem with that.
What I do have a problem with is mysterious closures of threads. While some here are well-versed on the forum rules, most are not. And even those of us that have read through them in their entirety do not necessarily spot the reason for a closure.
When the specific reason can be so easily put in the closure post, and of course the mod that made the decision knows precisely why they are closing it, it simply is not reasonable to expect thousands of other members to have to go back and commit the equivalent of legal research in the forum rules to figure out what the mod could simply have articulated with a short sentence.
The latter would serve the community far better -- and isn't that a core responsibility of mods?
The forum has the rules it does, and frankly, I don't think the issue of the Bonsai team's approach here to distribution is worth arguing about. It would be an exercise in mental masturbation that would never come to any resolution. Some people are highly irritated by their approach to soliciting donations, some aren't bothered at all (me, for instance). Regardless, they should follow the rules when posting here.
None of that has anything to do with how moderators do their jobs. I have no particularly pointed criticism for scotsman, or any other mod w.r.t. to this issue. Rather, I am suggesting a way to better serve their "customers", and make their own job here easier. They can consider it, or ignore it.

dwallersv said:
(I find it quite easy to spend maybe 30 seconds registering and clicking past the entreaties to donate).
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For what it's worth, I had issues registering and actually getting to the download when I tested it. That has nothing to do with the merit of an off-site download or the need to register, of course.

kelmar13 said:
But the moderator already said that it wasn't in compliance with forum rules....
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An entirely informationless reason.
That's the reason that every closed thread gets closed. It isn't enlightening at all.

dwallersv said:
An entirely informationless reason.
That's the reason that every closed thread gets closed. It isn't enlightening at all.
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Well, the Forum Rules state that
Forum Rules said:
Off-site downloads from sites requiring registration are NOT encouraged but may be permitted if the following conditions are met:
A) the site belongs to a member of XDA-Developers with at least 1500 posts and 2 years membership who actively maintains XDA-Developers' support thread(s) / posts, related to the download,
B) the site is a relatively small personal website without commercial advertising/links (i.e. not a competitor forum-based site with purposes and aims similar to those of XDA-Developers.com.)
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It appears as though Mammon doesn't have 1500 posts which would make him in violation of the rules and thus the reason for his thread being closed.
I'm sure that all of this was explained to him via PM though.

the real issue here is that people with issues can't post them now. but i gotta agree, while registering wasn't that much of a hassle, try downloading the thing from your phone, you gotta go through 16 prompts and 666 other things, speak to satan, make sure jesus is on your side and then you can finally download it. thats a lot of hassle from a phone browser. or you can download it to your computer. connect your phone, speak to satan, make sure jesus is on your side and maybe the computer will decide it llikes the phone enough to show the drive where you can copy it.
but I can go to ACS, click download and have it on my phone in 2 seconds.
I do agree that forums shouldn't get closed like this without explanation, but we saw the same thing with epic experience and frankly usually the quality gets worse not better once this starts to happen. With Epic experience, the rom went from superstable to so buggy it was unusable and the heads started to get quite swelled.

robl45 said:
the real issue here is that people with issues can't post them now. but i gotta agree, while registering wasn't that much of a hassle, try downloading the thing from your phone, you gotta go through 16 prompts and 666 other things, speak to satan, make sure jesus is on your side and then you can finally download it. thats a lot of hassle from a phone browser.
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You're problem, obviously, clearly is that you are not already pre-qualified with Satan and Jesus, as I am, thereby supernaturally being silently led around 15 of the prompts and 665 of the links. Much like a VIP passing the line at a hot nightclub.
Go and register at http://SatanIsMyBud.com and http://JesusDigsMe.com, and you'll avoid these problems. Don't worry about the apparent conflict -- they're enemies, and don't share databases.
I do agree that forums shouldn't get closed like this without explanation, but we saw the same thing with epic experience and frankly usually the quality gets worse not better once this starts to happen. With Epic experience, the rom went from superstable to so buggy it was unusable and the heads started to get quite swelled.
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I understand. At the same time, this is all free, the "providers" are donating their time and effort to us "consumers", so a certain degree of forebearance seems appropriate, IMO.
This is all very personal and subjective, similar in many ways to one's musical tastes. There's no point in arguing "is not! is too!" over such things -- I really don't mind jumping through some hoops for a few minutes to get something awesome for free. But that's just me, and my personality. Others do, and I bear no criticism or ill-will for their perspective.
The one criticism I do have is for those that slag on the guys. If you were paying for a product/service, sure, you have some standing. However, if you're simply taking advantage of their donated work, you certainly have the option not to, and go somewhere else (like ACS, for example). There seem to me nothing good to be accomplished by anyone being so critical, and appearing like a selfish ingrate.

I'm curious to what happened to the noobnl thread where he I believe he called out mammon on the website stuff or something of that nature I didn't get to see his actual post cuz he edited it and today I can't find it anywhere.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App

Maybe its just me, but I really didn't need an explanation to figure it out.
Here are the relevant parts exactly how they appear on each of two bonsai threads that were closed:
Current Version Download Links(Please register in-order to download) : mod edit: links removed
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from:http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=976864
and:
Please register in-order to download.
Download: mod edit: link removed
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from:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1001469
Hmm, I wonder why they were closed. Maybe I am just a master of deduction.

muyoso said:
Maybe its just me, but I really didn't need an explanation to figure it out.
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I'm sure it's not just you.
But then, I didn't, and I'm certain there are plenty of others like me too.
What I don't get is the (seeming) arrogance of some in the former camp that lack the basic civility to understand that both outcomes are entirely reasonable, and that intelligent, competent members of the community can arrive at either conclusion.
By "seeming arrogance" I refer to meaningless statements like, "Maybe it's just me", where the intended meaning is culturally well-established, and in my 49 years of life has never -- not once -- been said with any intent other than to denigrate others.
But then, maybe that's just me...

Mammon, Randy, et. al.: I have a suggestion for how to solve this problem.
Post a link to the Wiki, as you've done before, and then put the link to the "offending" site there, instead of a direct download.
I believe that would satisfy the Forum Rules, but of course defer to the moderators. Would any of them -- particularly scotsman -- care to weigh in?

What he needs to do is set it up like midnite rom. How he offers the rom on both sites and keeps the main support at his site and add ons. But that type of stuff irritates me. Just offer all of it here. I hate having to be redirected to another site.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App

I was going to try midnight, but I couldn't even find the rom to download. direct downloads really are best, especially from the phone perspective.
jbadboy2007 said:
What he needs to do is set it up like midnite rom. How he offers the rom on both sites and keeps the main support at his site and add ons. But that type of stuff irritates me. Just offer all of it here. I hate having to be redirected to another site.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
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Keeping it real

Like many, I was more than saddened with what happenned on XDA/X10 forii regarding some development threads yesterday.
Without wanting to start yet another flame war, some suggestions to help to try to prevent this and other nastiness from repeating itself in the future:
TO ALL USERS
- XDA is a space meant for collaboration and sharing information. Use it for that
- XDA is not a chat room. Posts just to thank or put down another user do nothing to help its purpose (There is a reason for the "Thanks" button).
...Nor do posts whose only content is "Use the search tool" or "posted previously in this thread" (w/o further information) or similar - while some people may in fact be lazy enough to not to search/look in some cases it's kind of hard to look through 300+ pages of posts to find 1 link or piece of information. Or to sort through hundreds of hits to a search. If you know the answer to a question, please share it. If not, welll....don't say anything.
- USE THE SEARCH TOOL and HAVE A LOOK AT A FEW PAGES of the thread of interest before posting the question .Likely you will find your answer and it helps PREVENTING threads from reaching the aforementioned 300+ pages, of which maybe like 30 pages actually contain INFORMATION.
- REMEMBER that what you are getting, you are getting for free. That applies both to stuff developed and put up on XDA, be it ROMS, tweaks, patches, whatever and to the wonderful people behind XDA - moderators, etc... whose work is often forgotten. If we as users can't be expected to read through all posts in a forum, why should we expect mods to have to act as if they had the time to do this?
- Having said that, if you like a development/tip/tweak, whatever, use the thanks button and leave it at that. If you don't like something, leave it at that. Posts to the effect of "You are God" or "You sleep with the devil" do nothing but mess with egos. And this forum is about messing with mobile computing platforms, not egos.
TO MODERATORS
- Please refrain from deleting threads. If they get out of hand (and they sometimes do) I humbly suggest that you (a) close them and/or (b) ban any offending users, albeit if only temporarily (aka "suspension").
For all the crap that may have gotten into a thread, most if not all threads contain a lot of useful information that may/will get lost if the thread is deleted. so the non-guilty parties get shafted as badly as the guilty. And I prefer to think that the majority of users are actually interested in moving things forward.
- Just an idea - but rather than having a simple requirement to have an account to post, would it be possible for you guys to set up a system whereby certain forums could only be posted to by users of a certain seniority - and preferably with a distinction to starting new threads or replying to existing threads.
Following on to this, I believe that the seniority requirements can be improved in a relatively easy way - maturity comes from experience, which is not necessarily related to # of posts (any fool can type 30 irrelevant posts in a day). What would you say to a system where, in addition to a minimum # of posts, a user needs to have been a member/at his previous seniority level for a certain amount of time? That should not be too difficult to implement and would help people get into the feel of things before blabbing off. Short tempers usually can't hold off a couple of weeks/months...
- THANKS for this great place!!!! Your efforts are too often forgotten.
TO DEVELOPERS
- Thanks for your time, effort, patience and hard work. We really appreciate it!
- Please consider that the strongest point of Android (hey, I'm posting this to the X10 forum, which is Android, no beef against WM or any other platforms) is that it is OPEN, meaning we can ALL work on it, improve it, tweak it, etc...
- That means that users can by default consider whatever is posted as being OPEN and can do likewise. If you feel that whatever you have developed/done is NOT open, then say so. And if you want a stronger protection for your work, or users aren't respecting your work, then publish it under some kind of license so everyone else knows what to expect and you have legal grounds - GPL, LGPL, ASL, Berkeley, etc... there are a number of them to choose from.
- Collaboration means being open to new ideas, praise and constructive criticism. Attitudes like "THIS **** IS MINE AND NOONE TOUCHES IT" (pardon the profanity) isn't really very constructive in an open source environment. You are not god. Help and inspiration may come from even the least probable places.
Well, that was long-winded. If I have offended anyone (I hope not) pardonnez-moi

"
...Nor do posts whose only content is "Use the search tool" or "posted previously in this thread" (w/o further information) or similar - while some people may in fact be lazy enough to not to search/look in some cases it's kind of hard to look through 300+ pages of posts to find 1 link or piece of information. Or to sort through hundreds of hits to a search. If you know the answer to a question, please share it. If not, welll....don't say anything."
actually. members are supposed to read the thread and look for answers. thus eliminating redundant and repeat posts
All in all though ideas that are already in place
If people respect the rules then good things happen
And as for not deleting threads
if the dev leaves then there no point leaving it open. otherwise we jsut clean them

as someone who runs a forum and moderates, deleting people's posts for no reason, is pretty poor. Mine was deleted for no reason and no explanation. The situation in the end was to the poorer for XDA. As a DEV left, and could be followed up by more. Instead of a calm hand, all members got was a heavey handed approach, threatening bans. Sorry that is a crap way. and in end has lost XDA many members. how sad

-PiLoT- said:
actually. members are supposed to read the thread and look for answers. thus eliminating redundant and repeat posts
All in all though ideas that are already in place
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Sure thing - but adding an additional post to JUST say "look in the thread" only makes it longer. No need since the rule is already in place, right?
-PiLoT- said:
And as for not deleting threads
if the dev leaves then there no point leaving it open. otherwise we jsut clean them
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Precisely - CLOSE them - they will take up some disk space and trickle down through the thread (being closed).
Cleaning some threads would take you guys ages (500+ pages in some cases).
Deleting them however loses information, whether the dev has left or not (he may always come back as has happened...) and only fans flames for conspiracy theories and other idiocies...I do concede that leaving them there may also spur more garbage initially, but that will stop as the (closed) thread ages.

acmbc said:
Sure thing - but adding an additional post to JUST say "look in the thread" only makes it longer. No need since the rule is already in place, right?
yes but sometime sits the steps that people need to take since people will not read the rules
Precisely - CLOSE them - they will take up some disk space and trickle down through the thread (being closed).
Cleaning some threads would take you guys ages (500+ pages in some cases).
Deleting them however loses information, whether the dev has left or not (he may always come back as has happened...) and only fans flames for conspiracy theories and other idiocies...I do concede that leaving them there may also spur more garbage initially, but that will stop as the (closed) thread ages.
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the last lot of threads were closed not deleted

Crocodile1973 said:
as someone who runs a forum and moderates, deleting people's posts for no reason, is pretty poor. Mine was deleted for no reason and no explanation. The situation in the end was to the poorer for XDA. As a DEV left, and could be followed up by more. Instead of a calm hand, all members got was a heavey handed approach, threatening bans. Sorry that is a crap way. and in end has lost XDA many members. how sad
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some posts are deleted during a routine thread cleanup

Im not saying your suggestions have no merit.
im saying that some of them are already looked into and some wont work as weve tried them in the past

-PiLoT- said:
Im not saying your suggestions have no merit.
im saying that some of them are already looked into and some wont work as weve tried them in the past
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Kudos to that. If it's been tried and not worked, my bad.

acmbc said:
Like many, I was more than saddened with what happenned on XDA/X10 forii regarding some development threads yesterday.
Without wanting to start yet another flame war, some suggestions to help to try to prevent this and other nastiness from repeating itself in the future:
TO ALL USERS
TO MODERATORS
TO DEVELOPERS
- Thanks for your time, effort, patience and hard work. We really appreciate it!
- Please consider that the strongest point of Android (hey, I'm posting this to the X10 forum, which is Android, no beef against WM or any other platforms) is that it is OPEN, meaning we can ALL work on it, improve it, tweak it, etc...
- That means that users can by default consider whatever is posted as being OPEN and can do likewise. If you feel that whatever you have developed/done is NOT open, then say so. And if you want a stronger protection for your work, or users aren't respecting your work, then publish it under some kind of license so everyone else knows what to expect and you have legal grounds - GPL, LGPL, ASL, Berkeley, etc... there are a number of them to choose from.
- Collaboration means being open to new ideas, praise and constructive criticism. Attitudes like "THIS **** IS MINE AND NOONE TOUCHES IT" (pardon the profanity) isn't really very constructive in an open source environment. You are not god. Help and inspiration may come from even the least probable places.
Well, that was long-winded. If I have offended anyone (I hope not) pardonnez-moi
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Click to collapse
well, my 2 cents
i agree on the "users" part
on the "to moderators" part, i disagree
mods don't need to "refrain" from deleting threads, that's what mods do. they do it for specific reasons, not just because they are self-proclaimed e-gods with a ban hammer. if threads need closed or deleted, that's what mods are here for. also, this site is not a democracy. a lot of members don't seem to understand that petitions and moral support for offending members who were banned or threads closed/deleted, will not exactly unban/reopen. granted, i'm sure if there was a collaborated majority between the mods, it will. but users making 30+ separate threads on the same subject (or lately the same dev) only makes things worse. all of these trip apostles are doing more harm than good. i know all these recent trip threads annoy the crap out of me, i can only imagine the work and annoyance it brings moderators.
as far as the dev section of your post goes
you can't take info/sources from some, then accuse EVERY dev for using yours, making comments like "i'm going to download this and check the files for my sources". seriously, it's unprofessional and immature.
as far as the trip situation goes
i have no idea what happened last night, but, where as he may be a great dev, being a dev is NOT for him. he cannot take criticism, he wants to share nothing with other devs, he was not working collabratively with anyone to benefit the community, and honestly, he seems the have the attitude of a 14 y/o girl. how many times does one person need to "threaten with leaving", then never doing so. then upon realizing that not enough begs to stay filled his ego, actually leave only to make a sudden reappearance because, there's really no other dev site out there to the extent of xda.
this isn't the first time he's been gone, although i this time was not his choice, i'm sure he will be back again.
oh, one other thing, you go to any other sub-forum on xda, and there is no drama like there is on the x10 sections. seriously, did SE market these things specifically to 14 y/o drama queens?

svtfmook said:
well, my 2 cents
i agree on the "users" part
on the "to moderators" part, i disagree
mods don't need to "refrain" from deleting threads, that's what mods do. they do it for specific reasons, not just because they are self-proclaimed e-gods with a ban hammer. if threads need closed or deleted, that's what mods are here for. also, this site is not a democracy. a lot of members don't seem to understand that petitions and moral support for offending members who were banned or threads closed/deleted, will not exactly unban/reopen. granted, i'm sure if there was a collaborated majority between the mods, it will. but users making 30+ separate threads on the same subject (or lately the same dev) only makes things worse. all of these trip apostles are doing more harm than good. i know all these recent trip threads annoy the crap out of me, i can only imagine the work and annoyance it brings moderators.
as far as the dev section of your post goes
you can't take info/sources from some, then accuse EVERY dev for using yours, making comments like "i'm going to download this and check the files for my sources". seriously, it's unprofessional and immature.
as far as the trip situation goes
i have no idea what happened last night, but, where as he may be a great dev, being a dev is NOT for him. he cannot take criticism, he wants to share nothing with other devs, he was not working collabratively with anyone to benefit the community, and honestly, he seems the have the attitude of a 14 y/o girl. how many times does one person need to "threaten with leaving", then never doing so. then upon realizing that not enough begs to stay filled his ego, actually leave only to make a sudden reappearance because, there's really no other dev site out there to the extent of xda.
this isn't the first time he's been gone, although i this time was not his choice, i'm sure he will be back again.
oh, one other thing, you go to any other sub-forum on xda, and there is no drama like there is on the x10 sections. seriously, did SE market these things specifically to 14 y/o drama queens?
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I agree with you.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Trip's work, heck, I even use it on my phone these past months.
There's a post I made in "News about current circumstances" thread that explains my point extensively.
Also, I know it in my gut that he will be back for sure.
You know why?
He feeds on publicity and Modaco forums are too low-populated for his huge ego.
I hope though, that upon his return he will be much more sophisticated and reasonable,
for the sake of every one here.
One can always dream...
PS: I was a 14 year old girl 10 years ago and, man, I'm telling you, I was a major drama queen.
I want to believe I've grown out of it though.

I really think the ideas from the original post would be used in some way at least. Good post OP. Hope xda considers this. There are some great ideas here.
Sent from my X10i using XDA Premium App

First and Second Class ROMS, 1st, 2nd class users

And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
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The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
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, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.

The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.

svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
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Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.

I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..

I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.

stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.

stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.

stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.

khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.

Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave

egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.

DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.

egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?

stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.

Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.

khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections

stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.

stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?

well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us

Non XDA hosted roms in general and Thor in particular

Ok
Having had a number of threads crapped, locked and deleted I am now asking (since mods dont answer PMs with the question)
Why can we have threads asking for help getting Thors mod running but we can not have threads discussing Thors upcoming Roms and cornerstone?
Not flaming, not causing controversy, just asking. So far I have seen multiple threads locked and my very polite, very clear, very 100% legal thread deleted with no notice or explanation and no response from mods.
I and others would just like to see a constant and even hand when it comes to Thor. Can we or can we not discuss his work, and if so, then can we have the mods remove the offenders and not the threads.

yeah, I saw this too. It seems the only time a thread gets attention from a mod is if Thor is mentioned. The rules are followed, yet the thread gets locked or deleted. Yet the rest of the sub forums are a mess. It is definitely clear that it's a vendetta now. Thread to disappear in 3,2,....
Sent from my Acer Iconia A500 using Tapatalk

Remember that XDA is huge... so some things slip through. If they do, you can always flag a post for review... That said, removing the offenders would be even worse, as (particularly new) members might violate the rules without noticing... Of course, some people just won't accept the rules, and I guess they are eventually banned. Other than that, the forum rules clearly say "no warez" -- and, from a purely legal point of view, Thor's kernel qualifies.

I would say purely because the moderation of the a500 forums has been so lacking for so long. Now they finally get sick of flame threads being flagged they decide to just nuke anything to do with the cause of 95% of the nuisance posts: THOR and anything to do with him.
OP Really has come across as a Troll account to me though TBH, sorry if I am wrong but can't you just let it go? You are like a dog with a bone, go to his unmentionable forums and hang out there if you don't like the rules?

He has followed the rules, even directly from the horses mouth. The rules state no links may be posted, that's it, that's all. Discussion is fine. There's even an ICS theme thread that's been going on for awhile for thors Rom.
Sent from my A500 using Tapatalk

Yep.
I created an account 3 (!!) years ago just so I could be a "troll".
Looking at post counts vs time we seem to be about the same......lurkers who post when meaningful. I do spend a lot of time at the "unmentionable" forum. I also keep tabs here to see if there is anything worthwhile...unfortunately less and less recently. Show me one post (other than 1 deleted one that was a clean call by the mod) where I did NOT 100% address the topic of the thread. Just because some one does not like the answer does not make it a troll post.... those whos some total of input is "sputter sputter GPL sputter stammer froth sputter" those are trolls.

Personally I have zero interest in Thor's stuff and I find his behaviour to be petty, childish and, again, hypocritical -- "I use other devs' stuff but I don't want other people to use my stuff!" -- but I still think people should be allowed to discuss his stuff here. We do not lose anything as a community even if we allow people to discuss topics they find interesting, but we certainly do lose something if we start censoring discussions just on the basis of who they are about!
Just my 2 cents, here.

Aaron Camp said:
Yep.
I created an account 3 (!!) years ago just so I could be a "troll".
Looking at post counts vs time we seem to be about the same......lurkers who post when meaningful. I do spend a lot of time at the "unmentionable" forum. I also keep tabs here to see if there is anything worthwhile...unfortunately less and less recently. Show me one post (other than 1 deleted one that was a clean call by the mod) where I did NOT 100% address the topic of the thread. Just because some one does not like the answer does not make it a troll post.... those whos some total of input is "sputter sputter GPL sputter stammer froth sputter" those are trolls.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey I did say sorry if I was wrong!
Maybe one of the mods rubbed you the wrong way and you decided to be defiant? I don't actually disagree with any of your points, I just don't see the point in constantly questioning the mods or the rules when it won't get you anywhere?
Correct me if I missed something but it pretty much went
*Getting a thread closed due to mentioning Thor and people jumped in and started **** (as most mentions of him tend to do).
*Then instead of letting it go, posted a similar topic saying go to Thors site...he's working on stuff you want!
* Now after that thread failed you go ahead and call out the Moderators to what end? An apology?
It does seem the Moderators are more active in here now though, which can only be a good thing...if you are to blame in some way, thank you! lol
Update to reply to WereCatf instead of double posting: I agree 100% the mods deleting the threads is silly, they should only delete clear violations or flame wars. People will behave if the Mods stay as active as they have been the last couple of days and we can all discuss anything without starting **** storms and having threads deleted or people banned.

Great summation for the past 2 week "thor gate".
Honestly trying to understand the rules. I am a long time lurker/poster. I was actually around when thor was deving here. There is zero consistency so no one knows the rules. Tth thread that was deleted had over 500 views and was 2 pages long. I ddint see anything in it that was flamebate and I was very very careful to keep it 100% legit by all posted rules and previous mod comments. All of a sudden....poof. Add to that a complete lack of response via pm from the mod and it did leave a bad taste.
To be honest the whole thor issue comes down to opinion on who's right and who's wrong. It could go either way. He is clearly outside the bounds of xda though....no grey there, but from a personal level as to people stealing his hard work, I am behind him 100%.
Hell its been 2 days on this thread and no mod or "authority" has responded at all. In my book a poorly modded forum is worse than an unmodded one every time.

Aaron Camp said:
Hell its been 2 days on this thread and no mod or "authority" has responded at all. In my book a poorly modded forum is worse than an unmodded one every time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mate, just let go. Don't expect a response from mods, they are likely busy, plus they likely have better things to do than to respond to threads like this. I mean, man, let go now and go do something useful. If they respond to this thread then good, if they don't you're just wasting your time at being unproductive.

I'm new to the community so I don't have an opinion about a certain hammer wielding developer. However, why the F*** do people want XDA to support his stuff when he has a whole site devoted to that?
Jim

Aaron Camp said:
Ok
Having had a number of threads crapped, locked and deleted I am now asking (since mods dont answer PMs with the question)
Why can we have threads asking for help getting Thors mod running but we can not have threads discussing Thors upcoming Roms and cornerstone?
Not flaming, not causing controversy, just asking. So far I have seen multiple threads locked and my very polite, very clear, very 100% legal thread deleted with no notice or explanation and no response from mods.
I and others would just like to see a constant and even hand when it comes to Thor. Can we or can we not discuss his work, and if so, then can we have the mods remove the offenders and not the threads.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He has a forum use his forum to discuss how mods installed etc
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

Thats kinda the point of this and other threads. There are other Roms out there beyond XDA. XDA in almost all other cases has no problem discussing them, referencing them, and even helping troublshoot them. XDA is very clear on what a ROM must be to be hosted here. Thor can not be hosted. No one argues that. We (and yes there are many who agree with me) just want to be able to discuss Thor here without the rabid anti-Thor crowd running in and crapping threads. As someone above said its become clear that it is a vendetta against Thor for some. If it is great, admit it, come clean and post clearly to all that XDA will not allow discussion of Thor, or moderate those who are crapping threads and let the discussion continue.

Aaron Camp said:
Thats kinda the point of this and other threads. There are other Roms out there beyond XDA. XDA in almost all other cases has no problem discussing them, referencing them, and even helping troublshoot them. XDA is very clear on what a ROM must be to be hosted here. Thor can not be hosted. No one argues that. We (and yes there are many who agree with me) just want to be able to discuss Thor here without the rabid anti-Thor crowd running in and crapping threads. As someone above said its become clear that it is a vendetta against Thor for some. If it is great, admit it, come clean and post clearly to all that XDA will not allow discussion of Thor, or moderate those who are crapping threads and let the discussion continue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One of the things about XDA, is that you can discuss general things regardless. And of people have issues with a rom, no matter who it comes from, then that falls under the apache license. Not GPL which has to do with the kernel itself. Something to that effect.
Discussing Thors rom, does not violate any license agreement, nor XDA policy. Direct links to Thors kernel, or rom or code containing such kernel, does.
This has been stated by Mod's time and time again. Some people, just don't get it, and use any mention of the name, as an excuse to "carry on the crusade", most of whom have not an inkling of what happened in the first place. They just react on what is recently known, and then again, only "hearsay".
So to discuss problem with an android rom, regardless of where it came from, is quite ok. But if the "crusaders" (on both ends) cause too much of a ruckus, which normally happens, the Mods will shut it down.
If people keep it civil, then things will be ok. Discuss the problems at hand, and ignore those who get their jollies trying to turn it into something else.

Not another Erica Post!!!!!!! Ohhh no!!!!
I Totally agree with Moscow..For me the biggest issue is . I see and post to all the threads Asking for Acer to release ICS. Then there are threads asking for GPL Compliant ICS. In those threads the flaming starts when people come in shouting there is ics and im running it now. Go to Here xxxxx to get it.. Its perfect its good the dev is above and beyond all..
The above is what has started this flaming war.. IF someone starts posting that he is so great so much above and better then everyone else. The flaming will start. As stated above i kinda agree that discussing issues solving basic android apps and issues on his rom is likely ok. But when People start putting xxxx as being better then everyone else is again when it will become a flaming thread. Unfortunately xda is a community for all.Everyone will give there opinion.Its a two sided story.I was using the above mentioned stuff until way back.I seen everything that went wrong.it would have took one Tiny Link to Source code solve this whole mess.
so keep this thread clean from the he has the right to not share and you MIGHT NOT GET FLAMED. IF you are lucky.. Whats right is Right.and there is a huge wrong happening.As i FLAME If you will ACER Everyday in email facebook twitter there automated help on there website. Over the boot loader . Will it help NO. But like equality for all in the US. sitting on your butt surely will fail..
Just my 3.well maybe 4 pennies..
Sorry if this is considered out of line for your Thread..
As far as cornerstone. I really do hope he gets its Working within his rom.As this is something that can be stripped out and Used in the Acer rom when pushed.Thou im not sure how will it will work with the acer ring as that also makes major changes to the same files as cornerstone.
Peacefully .. Me

Moscow Desire said:
Discussing Thors rom, does not violate any license agreement, nor XDA policy. Direct links to Thors kernel, or rom or code containing such kernel, does.
This has been stated by Mod's time and time again. Some people, just don't get it,....
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And this is the issue I am bringing up! I miss read the policy. The thread where I posted the direct link to Thor was locked. That was fine. I created a new thread that did not LINK. It DISCUSSED. It was 100% within the posted and stated rules of XDA, but that thread was DELETED!!
As for what really happened, I too was around, and read all the same threads you read. The issue of hosting the ROM is very cut and dry, it is not XDA material. The issue of if Thors ROM is legal, warez, violation of GPL etc is NOT cut and dry and is very much in a grey area. You can argue all you want about the rights or wrongs (ok, maybe not on this board!! ) of how Thor was treated by XDA mods etc.
I just want to make sure people passing through know about another GREAT ROM for a great tablet, and would also like to see XDA get back to being a well moderated (even handed) forum that is open to all discussion on relevant topics.

Aaron Camp said:
The issue of if Thors ROM is legal, warez, violation of GPL etc is NOT cut and dry and is very much in a grey area.
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Just pointing out that that is not true. It is in violation of GPL, that's that. It is a fact, not "grey area."

WereCatf said:
Just pointing out that that is not true. It is in violation of GPL, that's that. It is a fact, not "grey area."
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Well, you stretch the truth. To suit your needs.
Discussing of Thors rom breaks no rule. The "rom" itself does not fall under GPL, but under Apache. Only the specific kernel falls under GPL.
Now, if I flash RTripps kernel, using Thor's rom, are you to say I am violating GPL? No, and neither is RTripp or Thor.
GPL specifically states "Kernel".
So if a user, wants to ask questions, about a specific rom, well, nobody is violating any rules. Which is why the mods, have not intervened.
Of course if the cross comes to bear,,, well, that's just the way it is.

Moscow Desire said:
Discussing of Thors rom breaks no rule.
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I never claimed that. Just look at the previous page where I said people should be allowed to discuss it.
The "rom" itself does not fall under GPL, but under Apache. Only the specific kernel falls under GPL.
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As long as the kernel is distributed as part of it, then yes, it does. If he were to distribute them separately then what you claim would be true.
GPL specifically states "Kernel".
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No, it doesn't. GPL applies to any GPL-licensed software.
So if a user, wants to ask questions, about a specific rom, well, nobody is violating any rules. Which is why the mods, have not intervened.
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Again, you're barking up the wrong tree there.

Aaron Camp said:
And this is the issue I am bringing up! I miss read the policy. The thread where I posted the direct link to Thor was locked. That was fine. I created a new thread that did not LINK. It DISCUSSED. It was 100% within the posted and stated rules of XDA, but that thread was DELETED!!
As for what really happened, I too was around, and read all the same threads you read. The issue of hosting the ROM is very cut and dry, it is not XDA material. The issue of if Thors ROM is legal, warez, violation of GPL etc is NOT cut and dry and is very much in a grey area. You can argue all you want about the rights or wrongs (ok, maybe not on this board!! ) of how Thor was treated by XDA mods etc.
I just want to make sure people passing through know about another GREAT ROM for a great tablet, and would also like to see XDA get back to being a well moderated (even handed) forum that is open to all discussion on relevant topics.
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Click to collapse
The real problem is the fact that any discussions on Thor or his works immediately brings about the heated arguments from both sides of the fence. There is just very little possibility that people here can carry on a discussion that is JUST about the ROM and issues/experiences using it. There are only a few ways it can be carried out here (and seriously correct me if you think I am wrong):
You start your nice thread to discuss issues with Thor's ICS ROM, you put in your OP that this is simply a discussion, no linking allowed, you can even put a disclaimer like "If anyone has an issue with this discussion, please bring to a MOD's attention instead of posting your opposition here". But...
1. someone feels it is their responsibility to post why they are against this. Or...
2. someone is going to post asking why we cannot provide a link, or where to find the ROM, or why isn't it in the development section... or...
3. someone is going to feel they need to retaliate when someone does one of the above.
Either way, one outcome, the argument will get heated, and the mods will be forced to step in and take action. If they feel there is no salvation for the thread, they will close or delete it. End of discussion.
So, really, the content of the discussion is not really the issue at hand, but how the discussions are generally (always?) carried out.

reinstatement of developer status

to the moderators xda. what is developer? it is some1 who takes something and strides and makes it better hence Dorimanx. why was his status as dev taken away?
i know the argument is that he took parts from other members and improved upon them, but hey isnt that what every 1 that has developer status on xda has done? no dev on this site has created or builta rim for our hd2s on their own tyrung, raphiga etc etc they have all taken something that was originally googles and improved upon it whether sense, gingerbread or ics. they have taken improved code from other devs or google and made changes to it. or have taken roms from devs that stopped working on them and improved them.
So why then were their developer status not removed?????
if that is the case then no 1 on xda are really developers they are all senior members.
and if as u claim they are regonised developers then u as moderators of xda have no option in my opinion but to REINSTATE DEVELOPER STATUS TO DORIMANX............
if not then you in all conscience have to take away DEVELOPER STATUS FROM ALL DEVS ON XDA.

... +1 ... it's a shame ...

+1 but there is usually more to these stories than appears.
Sent from my HTC HD2 using xda premium

Maybe it has something to do with Dorimanx calling the kernal his own..!
Everyone uses things created by others but give credit.
But who am I to say maybe it is completely his own.
I did like his roms though..

shanman-2 said:
Maybe it has something to do with Dorimanx calling the kernal his own..!
Everyone uses things created by others but give credit.
But who am I to say maybe it is completely his own.
I did like his roms though..
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all kernel devs do same u dont see teds+gingers+coles3.1.1kernel just the name of who publishes kernel and compiles it together not the name of devs who solved and wrote code for different snippits used in kernel yet they still keep dev status and quite frankly a lot of those devs can be quite obnoxious, rude and contempious and not answer questions unlike dorimanx who always answers and tries to solve problems for us.
UNLIKE THE MODERATORS WHO DEEM THAT THEY DONT HAVE TO ANSWER ANYTHING AND NOW SEEM TO BE A LAW ONTO THEMSELVES!!!!!!

maddoc1007 said:
to the moderators xda. what is developer? it is some1 (someone) who takes something and strides and makes it better hence Dorimanx. why was his status as dev taken away?
i know the argument is that he took parts from other members and improved upon them, but hey isnt that what every 1 (everyone) that has developer status on xda has done? no dev on this site has created or builta (built a)rim (rom) for our hd2s on their own tyrung, raphiga etc etc they have all taken something that was originally googles (Google's) and improved upon it whether sense, gingerbread or ics. they have taken improved code from other devs or google and made changes to it. or have taken roms from devs that stopped working on them and improved them.
So why then were their developer status not removed?????
if that is the case then no 1 on xda are really developers they are all senior members.
and if as u (you) claim they are regonised developers then u (you) as moderators of xda have no option in my opinion but to REINSTATE DEVELOPER STATUS TO DORIMANX............
if not then you in all conscience have to take away DEVELOPER STATUS FROM ALL DEVS ON XDA.
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Really? Well... What if I told you why it was removed. There is more to life than the HD2 forum, and in this case, there were issues in the Galaxy S 2 forum, pertaining to making unfounded and false allegations against another developer.
At XDA we ask people to be respectful to each other, particularly anyone with a developer title. In this case, going around making false (and very serious) allegations against other developers is NOT acceptable. For this reason it was revoked, although a user subject to this can appeal and it will be dealt with suitably.

gazzacbr said:
+1 but there is usually more to these stories than appears.
Sent from my HTC HD2 using xda premium
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Correct.

maddoc1007 said:
all kernel devs do same u dont see teds+gingers+coles3.1.1kernel just the name of who publishes kernel and compiles it together not the name of devs who solved and wrote code for different snippits used in kernel yet they still keep dev status and quite frankly a lot of those devs can be quite obnoxious, rude and contempious and not answer questions unlike dorimanx who always answers and tries to solve problems for us.
UNLIKE THE MODERATORS WHO DEEM THAT THEY DONT HAVE TO ANSWER ANYTHING AND NOW SEEM TO BE A LAW ONTO THEMSELVES!!!!!!
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Click to collapse
May I ask how we are a law unto ourselves? We do answer to you (reply within 24 hours to your question is pretty good going), and I have explained the circumstances above.

pulser_g2 said:
Really? Well... What if I told you why it was removed. There is more to life than the HD2 forum, and in this case, there were issues in the Galaxy S 2 forum, pertaining to making unfounded and false allegations against another developer.
At XDA we ask people to be respectful to each other, particularly anyone with a developer title. In this case, going around making false (and very serious) allegations against other developers is NOT acceptable. For this reason it was revoked, although a user subject to this can appeal and it will be dealt with suitably.
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So, from what I gather from both your reply, and this from dorimanx:
"""there was an small war with one more dev.
i was wrong about my clame.
and got insolted many time, from him and his friends, i have apologise, after i found i was wrong, but my title just removed"""
is that he said something in the wrong, then the person he wrongly called out, instead of solving the issue reasonably both him and his friends laid down a **** storm of insults and what-not (I assume here there was equally insulting return-fire), after finding out he was in the wrong, he apologized, but his title was still removed...
am I correct in assuming that none of the persons involved on the other side even got warning? (after-all, I got a warning because someone said something was not possible many times and I not-so-polity told them to bugger off... and then a week later what I requested was posted in the developer section....)
also can I assume that he can appeal his title revocation? he states after-all he did apologize, and he is after-all ACTUALLY a developer with much praise and admiration for his works...
Why not a warning instead of title pull? or temp ban or something? Telling a dev he isnt a dev is a bit more then insulting if you ask me...
*This is going on just what you both have said, if you wished to add more information to the pot, or point out the fiasco for others to read to understand better, I am all for it, but what I have written above is just from my reading both your and his statements on the subject... and despite the "you weren't involved, dont say anything" montra that presents itself when I choose to post this, I have long thought he deserved his Dev title... (especially since hes been given it once before... even though that was a community wide mistake)

Hammerfest said:
So, from what I gather from both your reply, and this from dorimanx:
"""there was an small war with one more dev.
i was wrong about my clame.
and got insolted many time, from him and his friends, i have apologise, after i found i was wrong, but my title just removed"""
is that he said something in the wrong, then the person he wrongly called out, instead of solving the issue reasonably both him and his friends laid down a **** storm of insults and what-not (I assume here there was equally insulting return-fire), after finding out he was in the wrong, he apologized, but his title was still removed...
am I correct in assuming that none of the persons involved on the other side even got warning? (after-all, I got a warning because someone said something was not possible many times and I not-so-polity told them to bugger off... and then a week later what I requested was posted in the developer section....)
also can I assume that he can appeal his title revocation? he states after-all he did apologize, and he is after-all ACTUALLY a developer with much praise and admiration for his works...
Why not a warning instead of title pull? or temp ban or something? Telling a dev he isnt a dev is a bit more then insulting if you ask me...
*This is going on just what you both have said, if you wished to add more information to the pot, or point out the fiasco for others to read to understand better, I am all for it, but what I have written above is just from my reading both your and his statements ont he subject....
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There's more to the issue than that.
In order to properly investigate the claim, I did what any developer would do upon seeing that claim - take the original sources he made the allegation against, and then rebuild them from scratch, testing ONLY the change alleged to cause the issues.
This is a fundamental and basic step, and it demonstrated there was no issue with the sources being posted by the other developer.
I'd ask you, is it acceptable to go around making inflammatory remarks and comments against another developer, ACCUSING them of breaking the GPL (when in fact they are adhering to it beyond what is even required, pushing commits that are not released yet)? What if someone did that to your preferred developer? Wouldn't this be a thread of "OMG STRIP HIM OF HIS TITLE, HE INSULTED OUR FAVOURITE DEV"?
There was ample chance given to resolve the issue amicably, and the accusatory tone used against another developer was not acceptable. Furthermore, missing out on fundamental steps such as checking your own allegations out fully (by testing with clean, unmodified builds) is quite fundamental.
I did say he can appeal it, and he has contacted me with regard to that, and it will be dealt with in due course.
I'm surprised at you asking about that though - would you rather we temp ban him? I somehow don't think many people would agree with you.
Finally on regard to "telling a dev he isn't a dev", that is not what RD is about - RD is about the best examples of professional standard developers on XDA. If your conduct is not inkeeping with what is tolerated in the open source community (which is what this is), then you should not be a Recognized Developer. It's a privilege, not a right. And not every developer has it (many do not wish to have it, and have declined to apply even when suggested). It's something that's open to apply for, but people must be at the required level of skills and act in the right manner. If either of these changes, then their status can be reviewed.

re re reinstatement of dev to dorimanx
i have read the explanation from pulser but am somewhat dismayed by his reply shots were fired it seems from both sides, rude or derogatory they may have been but an apology was issued by dorimanx. my amusement stems from why when other devs on xda rant and rave at members for asking questions and call them stupid or thick and other inflamatory remarks you do not take their dev status from them
A we ask people to be respectful to each other, particularly anyone with a developer title.
your words above but yet iv not seen u or other moderators reprimanding those devs or taking their titles of them.
. If your conduct is not inkeeping with what is tolerated in the open source community (which is what this is), then you should not be a Recognized Developer.
more of your words but i have seen from thdeads on here the way ordinary decent people on here are treated and disrespected maybe their english is not too good or they are new and dont know their way around xda or maybe a threas is a few hundred pages long and they cant find what they are looking for and they ask a question. then lo and behold a dev tells them they are 2 stupid to look or too ignorant to.find it themselves or other worse remarks. is that not being disrespctful and NOT FOLLOWING YOUR CODE OF CONDUCT. yet ye take no action against them? as a result of the way people are insulted on here iv seen in threads where membera have said that they are leaving xda over the insults to them. so where were the moderators then and. why werent those devs titles taken??. read through your dev threads and you will see plenty of examples of this.
therefore it is not an even playing field for members here on xda and os if you want to throw me off xda so be it but until you clean up your act on xda you cant make 1 law for some and another law for others

pulser_g2 said:
There's more to the issue than that.
In order to properly investigate the claim, I did what any developer would do upon seeing that claim - take the original sources he made the allegation against, and then rebuild them from scratch, testing ONLY the change alleged to cause the issues.
This is a fundamental and basic step, and it demonstrated there was no issue with the sources being posted by the other developer.
1 ) I'd ask you, is it acceptable to go around making inflammatory remarks and comments against another developer, ACCUSING them of breaking the GPL (when in fact they are adhering to it beyond what is even required, pushing commits that are not released yet)? What if someone did that to your preferred developer? Wouldn't this be a thread of "OMG STRIP HIM OF HIS TITLE, HE INSULTED OUR FAVOURITE DEV"?
There was ample chance given to resolve the issue amicably, and the accusatory tone used against another developer was not acceptable. Furthermore, missing out on fundamental steps such as checking your own allegations out fully (by testing with clean, unmodified builds) is quite fundamental.
I did say he can appeal it, and he has contacted me with regard to that, and it will be dealt with in due course.
2 ) I'm surprised at you asking about that though - would you rather we temp ban him? I somehow don't think many people would agree with you.
Finally on regard to "telling a dev he isn't a dev", that is not what RD is about - RD is about the best examples of professional standard developers on XDA. If your conduct is not inkeeping with what is tolerated in the open source community (which is what this is), then you should not be a Recognized Developer. It's a privilege, not a right. And not every developer has it (many do not wish to have it, and have declined to apply even when suggested). It's something that's open to apply for, but people must be at the required level of skills and act in the right manner. If either of these changes, then their status can be reviewed.
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1: TBQH, if a dev came into the dev thread for dori's HD2, and pulled the same thing, and then WE as users and HIM as a developer played the whole two year old fighting game, you can bet your arse I would expect you to put everyone on "time-out" that fired off "conduct not inkeeping" with the expected conduct of the open source community (as you put it), dori and any of us users that participated as well! Additionally, I wouldn't request a title be stripped, because to the users of XDA as a whole, RD might as well just be D, and lets face it, I see far more users here then developers. However as I said, even if one was at fault, if both sides where participating in the argument and insults and "bad conduct", I MYSELF would still punish both sides, even a warning is still more tactful then removal of a title and normally a warning shunts people before it would warrant a ban or title revocation.
2: It was a suggestion made "in passing", and sometimes, people need a few days or even a week to cool down, but your right, not many people would agree with me, but it was throwing out something other then removing a title that IMHO at least, has been deserved by dori for the longest time...
Im not ignoring the rest of your comment btw, I am not a developer, but I am a user and a PC Builder/Tech both as a hobby and a job, and I advocate "full wipes" or "clean testing environments" whenever I play with new rom's, fix issues on customers computers, or even encounter error's myself, so I see the fault in calling out an issue, prior to a "scrub test" as I like to call it myself, and i kinda went into the RD issue in 1: so ill leave it at that
maddoc1007 said:
i have read the explanation from pulser but am somewhat dismayed by his reply shots were fired it seems from both sides, rude or derogatory they may have been but an apology was issued by dorimanx. my amusement stems from why when other devs on xda rant and rave at members for asking questions and call them stupid or thick and other inflamatory remarks you do not take their dev status from them
A we ask people to be respectful to each other, particularly anyone with a developer title.
your words above but yet iv not seen u or other moderators reprimanding those devs or taking their titles of them.
. If your conduct is not inkeeping with what is tolerated in the open source community (which is what this is), then you should not be a Recognized Developer.
more of your words but i have seen from thdeads on here the way ordinary decent people on here are treated and disrespected maybe their english is not too good or they are new and dont know their way around xda or maybe a threas is a few hundred pages long and they cant find what they are looking for and they ask a question. then lo and behold a dev tells them they are 2 stupid to look or too ignorant to.find it themselves or other worse remarks. is that not being disrespctful and NOT FOLLOWING YOUR CODE OF CONDUCT. yet ye take no action against them? as a result of the way people are insulted on here iv seen in threads where membera have said that they are leaving xda over the insults to them. so where were the moderators then and. why werent those devs titles taken??. read through your dev threads and you will see plenty of examples of this.
therefore it is not an even playing field for members here on xda and os if you want to throw me off xda so be it but until you clean up your act on xda you cant make 1 law for some and another law for others
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you make a good point, and I hope the mod reads it, I have seen many dev's for rom's and mods who definitely don't follow any "code of conduct" I have ever heard of, but I have NEVER (and I stress this in only my experience as a User of but a few ROM's) seen a user have his/hers title revoked, and I used to follow links and frequently browse XDA before I registered...
Now in saying that, its possible its due to a lack of "report"ing occurring, and with the latest fiasco regarding the E3D people have become "report" crazy and if it proves true, I should expect to see more "RD" and other "higher then senior member" accounts demoted
Ive noted before, Ill note again, I "assume" things being ok with making an ass out of myself, its part of the learning process, and I have to thank the mod for replying to me/us and taking the time to help us out as supporters of the user turned dev demoted user instead of outright closing the thread. Oh, and I am just a USER... dont taze me bro... (im a bit drunk, forgive me, I just had to...)

The biggest part of being a big open source community, or any community for that matter, is collaborating and the ability to tolerate mistakes. If nobody makes mistakes than the community is not evolving since there is nobody participating.
That being said, the bad blood which came across both Dorimanx and the other developer is a part of an active community, and it has been proven to be the only way somebody can truly learn; this is the main reason you have authority (moderators) present.
IMO stripping one user from his title but leaving the other is unfair prejudice, its like saying, "you were both wrong in your act, but he was wrong-er".
As a moderator, I suggest you ask yourself what is your message to the community, do you want more people participating but in a mannered, polite way or do you want people being afraid to challenge somebody?
As I see it, if you came here to learn, you ought to make mistakes; its a collaborative effort not a memorial for those who already know "everything" and came here to boost their ego, or am I wrong?

As a Retired Senior Mod and since i was involved in Dorinmax issue, i could say more about but this will be not fair against XDA, period.
XDA have rules and you are expected to follow them even if you are ERd, RD, RT, RC or a Mod, you cannot use a pubblic thread to make accuses, troll or to partecipate in a flaming war hence you will be punished with infraction points and/or ban and this happened in that case but yet i disagree with easy titles revoking and as said here, many other so called devs should be without the title.
The moral of the story is: When you have a problem or if you see any issue, contact you Forum Specific Moderator or any Senior Moderator, these people are doing a great job and they are always ready to help or to suggest how to address the problem in the better way.

maddoc1007 said:
to the moderators xda. what is developer? it is some1 who takes something and strides and makes it better hence Dorimanx. why was his status as dev taken away?
i know the argument is that he took parts from other members and improved upon them, but hey isnt that what every 1 that has developer status on xda has done? no dev on this site has created or builta rim for our hd2s on their own tyrung, raphiga etc etc they have all taken something that was originally googles and improved upon it whether sense, gingerbread or ics. they have taken improved code from other devs or google and made changes to it. or have taken roms from devs that stopped working on them and improved them.
So why then were their developer status not removed?????
if that is the case then no 1 on xda are really developers they are all senior members.
and if as u claim they are regonised developers then u as moderators of xda have no option in my opinion but to REINSTATE DEVELOPER STATUS TO DORIMANX............
if not then you in all conscience have to take away DEVELOPER STATUS FROM ALL DEVS ON XDA.
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Thanks man, you have stirred a bit o' thought.......
Sent from my HTC HD2 using xda premium

Looking again at this thread..do not politics come into everything that's worth talking about!
Sent from my Nexus One using xda premium

shanman-2 said:
Looking again at this thread..do not politics come into everything that's worth talking about!
Sent from my Nexus One using xda premium
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thats the crux of it all no wonder so many great developers have left xda!!

Such is life in the virtual world and the real world ta boot .. .LOL,
Sent from my Nexus One using xda premium