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I would like to see what people think.
wth!!! that is retarded!!
How can the government even grant most of these patents? You invent the wheel, sure it makes life MUCH simpler for everyone, you deserve a patent. You start using latex instead of sheep skins for condom production - bravo - grant a patent. On the other hand, all these iPhone patents do is stifle innovation and overload the legal system. Plus, most of these "patents" are so vague that they're virtually guaranteed to have precedent by someone other than Apple patent holders. Really hope Google steps into this frey and not only helps HTC to squash Apple's claims, but also publically lay into the patent office for granting these things in the first place.
Good god almighty, those are ****ing stupid patents to grant.
bundys said:
How can the government even grant most of these patents? You invent the wheel, sure it makes life MUCH simpler for everyone, you deserve a patent. You start using latex instead of sheep skins for condom production - bravo - grant a patent. On the other hand, all these iPhone patents do is stifle innovation and overload the legal system. Plus, most of these "patents" are so vague that they're virtually guaranteed to have precedent by someone other than Apple patent holders. Really hope Google steps into this frey and not only helps HTC to squash Apple's claims, but also publically lay into the patent office for granting these things in the first place.
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Exactly. I hope this goes toward deconstructing the patent system and exposing for what it truly is--not a protection for intellectual property, but a tool for naked corporate greed.
Steve Jobs is a big fat ****....
He's going after android. Check this http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/...lawsuit?icid=sphere_blogsmith_inpage_engadget
Steve Jobs is an idiot. He cant handle any competition, he knows his device is inferior and cant handle that. He is shaking in his boots right now with the rapid growth of android. I really hope Google/HTC give him a big F you and put him in his place.
What's the point of this poll?
Who the heck in this forum is going to vote Yes?
No one will, except of course for DMaverick and pr0cl1v1ty.
Am I the only thinking that this would be the perfect time for google to start showing Ads on TV with the theme of look what our device can do that the iphone cant?
I would pay good money to see the look on Steve Jobs face the first time he sees this.
HTC should sue Apple for being stupid.
Software patents need to go, but how much you wanna bet that this is about Apple pre-emptively suing HTC before HTC sue *them*? I bet this is a face-saving measure. They'll cross-license and that will be the end of it.
I do agree that Apple has at least something to hold against HTC *cough* Android *cough* what comes to the patent infringements. In addition I also think that this is some laughable and needless muscle flexing on Apple's part and to think that it wouldn't be regarded as a proxy attack at Android and Google is just preposterous.
Come whatever may since this is going to get really ugly but I think Apple is not going to be the one coming out on top.
What an easy way to get money by licensing the patents...see what Nokia is doing on Apple...so now even Apple settles a deal with Nokia Apple may not need to get a penny out from its pocket...
Steve Jobs will talk **** about Android but he's too scared to sue Google so he sues HTC..haha thats a good one Steve, how about you go back into hiding
jp_macaroni said:
HTC should sue Apple for being stupid.
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Better yet, HTC should pull out the big guns (Microsoft) to sue them
Checkers or Chess?
Not cool Apple....especially since you stole from xerox etc(oh and Steve spoke of blatantly stealing from others)....but if you want to get to the root of it all Apple feels extremely threatened by Google/Android....Google is all about innovation and in Androids infant stages they blew Google off. Remember how much Apple used google maps to sell the iPhone when it was 1st introduced(the irony)....Now Android is growing up and its more of a competitor. But if you go against one you have to go against all of the companies with custom versions of Android in one way or another....I think the company that everyone keeps forgetting about is Palm...They were the catalysts for the mobile OS's we love today....The only reason HTC is in the crossfire is because of the Sense UI. But if you attack Sense UI, then you must attack Blur, Rachael, Dell's custom UI, and TouchWiz....(Thats HTC, Motorola, Sony Ericcson, Dell and Samsung) So instead of Apple focusing on bringing innovative products and services it chooses to contend with Google in a very risky game of chess. I personally feel many of Apple's policies slow innovation and impede competition.(app store**cough**) Apple I hope you get taught a humbling lesson.
If you read the breakdown of all the patents that they claim have been infringed upon, you can easily see that these would not only apply to Android, but a large variety of desktop operating systems and mobile oses as well.
engadget.com/2010/03/02/apple-vs-htc-a-patent-breakdown/
I am sorry but what apple is doing with their iphone and mobile OS platform is just not good for growth long term; i will however give them the benefit of the doubt as far as short term growth but long term they are only hurting themselves unless they really can get the government to uphold all these patents...
personally i think these patents are so pathetic and i do not think the government had any clue what they were patenting when they actually allowed apple to get the patents that they did... the government nor did anyone else have any clue what the mobile world would like like it does now, 3 years ago when those patents were first granted... i mean, can you imagine the money the guy who patented urinal cakes makes if he invented and patented those things right after urinals were invented? some technology is better left unprotected by uncle same for the good of advancement... how the hell can you have a patent on a screen that registers multiple touches to it? that is the most unorthodox thing i think i have ever heard in my life... apple put out a great product, no doubt but they are going about every wrong direction in keeping their product and legacy alive... continue to innovate rather than play defense behind lawyers... i would rather buy from a continuously innovative company that promotes the growth of their products rather than a company who puts out 1 good product and then attacks everyone else to keep their product at the top, and thats just a matter of respect for a business...
I will admit, when the iphone first came out, that was the gadget to have and it was hands down the best phone and to some extent still is... apple has controlled every aspect of the phones growth and has more/less been very opposing to the group of jailbreakers and iphone hackers that have tried to bring 3rd party software to the phones (remember those updates that bricked a lot of peoples phones?). But with that said there comes a time where a company needs to let go, they did great at getting the phone, and to a certain extent, the entire mobile market really moving but after awhile they need to let things go and realize that they have already created a legacy and the users need to take the phone and platform the direction they want to go.
Simplicity is the key to get something started, complexity is the key to keep that same thing interesting...
Apple's only biting because HTC (with Google) are producing sales stealing devices. As far as I am aware, this is the first time Apple has filed patent breaches without first negotiating with the infringing party.
In legal circles, this is truely the response from a very immature, emotional, foot stomping little boy.
GO HTC!! GO Android!! GO you good thing!!
Honestly, I voted that I do agree with some of the patents that they had been granted, not all. Maybe through this mess we'll see some great innovation; interfaces that we've never considered before, alterations to common ideals of the way our phones operate. Google has brought us a good thing. From the perspective of apple, it would be intelligent to stop the source (htc), if there were infringing content being distributed (to be decided I guess). Google provides the best mobile OS available, HTC distributes it. It will end well for the consumer though, I promise.
"We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."
- Steve Jobs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU
What a f-tard.
From what I can gather, the claims at its core appear to be about android and wm. I would like to see Google and Microsoft join forces on this one and get behind HTC.
http://www.tgdaily.com/mobility-features/54903-is-motorola-getting-ready-to-ditch-android
The article makes several key points:
"Android isn't turning out to be profitable for any company other than Google and even Google's numbers look less than reliable. There are 37 lawsuits on this platform since the beginning of 2010 many filed against companies like Motorola and complaints from the OEM on Google's responsiveness to their concerns are both common and strident," he explained.
"They are not happy and a review of all of this is what pushed HP to buy Palm and avoid Android all together
You have to consider why a company like Motorola would chose to support, or not support an OS - things may not be all that rosy for Google Experience Devices, in fact it sounds like companies like Motorola may actually resent Googles interference, and what they percieve as an inequitable distribution of profit (into Googles Pocket) on these devices.
Developing an operating system isn't something a company "just decides" to do. It takes years, then you have to get the hardware vendors to make systems for it, and the software guys to make software for it. HP already have an OS in WebOS; ditto RIM. Are they swimming in dev love right now?
>"Android isn't turning out to be profitable for any company other than Google"
Moto was near death after the Razr petered out, and was resuscitated back to life with the Droid series. Last I looked, its financials look a lot better than it was before its Android push. Ditto for HTC, which is now riding on a wave of cash. You can check on others.
Every for-profit company in the world is doing things to make...a profit. If it's not profitable, nobody would do it. Now, look at the rate of Android adoption for smartphones. Think all of those vendors are looking to lose money?
The trouble with holding Internet pundits as gospel is that they, like any for-profit entity, don't necessarily care about the facts as they do about sensationalizing them, even to the extent of spouting fibs. The more attention a blog post gets, the more hits, and the more ad revenue. Sad as it is to say, but truth and facts can be boring, and embellishment sells.
I think its all in the informations source. Wasn't there an article a month or two back that essentially discussed exactly how profitable Android is? Essentially calling it Google's most profitable venture ever for both themselves and their partners.
I think the proof is in handset shipments and growth. What is HTC's shipment growth over the past 2 years? Something in the neighborhood of 200%? and their projection is for a 300% increase over that this year? Those handset sales are driven primarily by Android. If they aren't making a profit on those handsets then they would have been unprofitable no matter what, because their prices wouldn't have changed. Whether it be Windows Mobile,Android or Brand Z their new handset is still going to be in the neighborhood of 599-650, so its their responsibility to make sure that price point is profitable for them. I don't see them being able to complain about slow growth since the sales growth and acceptance for the Android platform is pretty much meteoric.
I hardly see Motorola complaining about Android considering it and Verizon essentially saved them from becoming the next Nokia, a brand no one in America cares about. Are they hedging their bets? Possibly. Abandoning Android right now or in the foreseeable future though? I would say absolutely not.
Without Android, its pretty easy to say that Motorola and HTC would be in far worse financial shape than increasing their shipments and profits every quarter than they currently are. (Samsung not so much, they could have continued to be the OEM supplier for screens to HTC/Other brands who want to make phones) But in fact it was so profitable it encouraged Samsung to jump into the market themselves instead of just supplying parts. It gave those companies an instant way to compete with iOS.
Motorola announced today it sold 8.3 million handsets in the second quarter, earning the Mobile Devices division $1.7 billion in sales, and returning the unit to profitability after several quarters of losses. Over 2.7 million smartphones were part of Motorola’s overall handset sales, showing the vast growth in this segment, as the company reported zero smartphone sales in the same quarter in 2009. Although Motorola quarterly results don’t specifically name the biggest catalyst for such a change, it can be summarized in one word: Android.
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Thats from July of 2010. So from losses to profit, I can hardly see how that "wouldn't be turning out profitable" for them.
e.mote said:
Developing an operating system isn't something a company "just decides" to do. It takes years, then you have to get the hardware vendors to make systems for it, and the software guys to make software for it. HP already have an OS in WebOS; ditto RIM. Are they swimming in dev love right now?
>"Android isn't turning out to be profitable for any company other than Google"
Moto was near death after the Razr petered out, and was resuscitated back to life with the Droid series. Last I looked, its financials look a lot better than it was before its Android push. Ditto for HTC, which is now riding on a wave of cash. You can check on others.
Every for-profit company in the world is doing things to make...a profit. If it's not profitable, nobody would do it. Now, look at the rate of Android adoption for smartphones. Think all of those vendors are looking to lose money?
The trouble with holding Internet pundits as gospel is that they, like any for-profit entity, don't necessarily care about the facts as they do about sensationalizing them, even to the extent of spouting fibs. The more attention a blog post gets, the more hits, and the more ad revenue. Sad as it is to say, but truth and facts can be boring, and embellishment sells.
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You both make good points.
Thats when these boards work best. When people actually think through all the facets of a topic and don't just devolve into an Apple good/Android Bad rant.
However, in response to the comment: "Developing an operating system isn't something a company "just decides" to do. "
Certainly it is,
ANDROID is an operating system developed by a company called Google, that just "decided" to create an OS to compete with Apple.
That in turn was developed from an OS called Linux developed by Torvalds as an open source alternative to Windows.
Or take Windows Phone 7 - A company called Microsoft "Just decided to develop" and OS from the ground up to compete with Apple.
Problem isn't developing an OS, problem is marketing it and developing Apps.
Edit: I agree with you that that this is virtually impossible for Motorola. But I would have thought it impossible for HP too and yet, they had the creative insight to buy palm, and now they are doing it. Probably will crash and burn, but bottom line is: They DID abandon android.
Digital Man said:
ANDROID is an operating system developed by a company called Google, that just "decided" to create an OS to compete with Apple.
Or take Windows Phone 7 - A company called Microsoft "Just decided to develop" and OS from the ground up to compete with Apple.
Problem isn't developing an OS, problem is marketing it and developing Apps.
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I hope you understand that there difference between software companies deciding to make software and hardware companies deciding to make software.
Microsoft and Google already had experience and infrastructure in place to create new software. Motorola will be starting with...nothing. That is why Palm was purchased by HP, they needed a leg up on software experience to make new software development practical.
_RTFM_ said:
I hope you understand that there difference between software companies deciding to make software and hardware companies deciding to make software.
Microsoft and Google already had experience and infrastructure in place to create new software. Motorola will be starting with...nothing. That is why Palm was purchased by HP, they needed a leg up on software experience to make new software development practical.
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Knew that one was coming. Thats why companies hire employess. Thats why companies buy other companies.
Thats why companies like HP which are HARDWARE companies buy companies like Palm which are SOFTWARE companies. Whatever it takes to get the job done.
Programmers are people, they can walk from software companies over to the building where the hardware company is located and start working there, on a shiny new OS as soon as they are hired or aquired.
Edit: Might I also point out that Google started as a search engine, not a software company either.
Digital Man said:
Knew that one was coming. Thats why companies hire employess. Thats why companies buy other companies.
Thats why companies like HP which are HARDWARE companies buy companies like Palm which are SOFTWARE companies. Whatever it takes to get the job done.
Programmers are people, they can walk from software companies over to the building where the hardware company is located and start working there, on a shiny new OS as soon as they are hired or aquired.
Edit: Might I also point out that Google started as a search engine, not a software company either.
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...ok, but in order for them to walk over there they need to be PAID, and an entire new wing of R&D needs to be built to support them. This is a massive investment that is VERY high risk that takes a long time.
Oh you're right, I had no clue Google started as a search engine. That means they are and have always been a software company. Just because "engine" is in the phrase doesn't mean it isn't software
_RTFM_ said:
...ok, but in order for them to walk over there they need to be PAID, and an entire new wing of R&D needs to be built to support them. This is a massive investment that is VERY high risk that takes a long time.
Oh you're right, I had no clue Google started as a search engine. That means they are and have always been a software company. Just because "engine" is in the phrase doesn't mean it isn't software
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Sarcasm aside, no, I'm still not sure a search engine is the same as a hardware operating system....
Her is a good article supporting the alternative point of view however:
Moto ditching Android: Silly Rumor
http://androidcommunity.com/motorola-developing-own-os-silly-rumor-20110325/
Note this line: Motorola is working on their own OS? What? Back that up. Several blogs are putting forth the rumor that Motorola’s friendship with Google is waning and that the cellphone manufacturer has been quietly hiring Apple and Adobe engineers with the aim of developing their own platform OS to compete with Android.
Note the part about quietly hiring from Apple and Adobe.
I honestly don't have a strong opinion one way or the other here. I am primarily playing Devils Advocate by throwing the orignal topic out here for discussion, as it is something that people have been talking about quite a bit on Motorola hardware boards.
I was curious to see other peoples points of view on the story-rumor.
Here is an interesting article about why Google might not care if Android ever makes money.
Android May Be the Greatest Legal Destruction of Wealth in History [Android]
TOP STORIES IN TECHNOLOGY | MARCH 25, 2011
http://gizmodo.com/#!5785983/android-may-be-the-greatest-legal-destruction-of-wealth-in-history
tinpusher said:
Here is an interesting article about why Google might not care if Android ever makes money.
Android May Be the Greatest Legal Destruction of Wealth in History [Android]
TOP STORIES IN TECHNOLOGY | MARCH 25, 2011
http://gizmodo.com/#!5785983/android-may-be-the-greatest-legal-destruction-of-wealth-in-history
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Thanks for posting this.
I have to laugh. I started this thread, and in effect was accused of being a conspiracy theorist wearing a tin-foil hat. So it makes me feel better knowing that the guys over at Gizmodo have some pretty shiny head-gear as well.
If Motorola leaves the Android community they would be shooting themselves in the foot. I really have a hard time believing Moto would be that stupid.
Where were they before Android? On the brink of death. Leaving now is suicide. Companies really need to stop thinking they are Apple. Apple is the exception to that proves rule.
If they took all the money they put into this rumored OS and sunk it into a better blur (or option to disable blur), better hardware, and FAST updates... they would rule the market.
th0r615 said:
If Motorola leaves the Android community they would be shooting themselves in the foot. I really have a hard time believing Moto would be that stupid.
Where were they before Android? On the brink of death. Leaving now is suicide. Companies really need to stop thinking they are Apple. Apple is the exception to that proves rule.
If they took all the money they put into this rumored OS and sunk it into a better blur (or option to disable blur), better hardware, and FAST updates... they would rule the market.
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Oh hell, some companies like Microsoft shoot themselves in the foot on an almost daily basis. Remember the Kin phone? Here is a quote from an article by Engadget:
"While it's hard to argue that Kin is an awful product, the saddest part of the story is that many of the people responsible for it knew it was -- they were largely victims of political circumstance, forced to release a phone that was practically raw in the middle."
In the end they sold something like 500 of the things.
Remember the Dell streak releasing crippled with Android 1.6?
And then there was windows Vista....
Companies often do things that seem to make no rational business sense.
It would be crazy for them to abandon the platform that single handedly prevented them from going into bankruptcy... Motorola was doing horrible before they teamed up with Verizon and released the Droid OG. Which was an insanely popular device. Motorola should be thanking Verizon and Google for still having jobs right now...
They would be crazy to stop embracing android. Not only is it generating business like crazy (everyone has seen or heard of the enormous numbers of android products being sold, numbers that are unseating the existing leaders of the mobile os market), all indications are that android is still growing. Why abandon success?
Sent from my DROIDX using XDA App
Actually it's as simple as this.. Would you abandon an OS that has the second largest apps for mobile? It would be dumb for any company to do such a thing.. I mean think about it.. What other choices do you have?? WM7, RIM, Palm etc?? It would take years for them to catch up, apps wise.. Right now, what makes these phone manufacturer tick, is the apps behind it.. Hence, that's the reason why I chose Android when I left iphone.. The apps.. So I don't think Motorola would abandon Android and jump ship anytime soon.. Or at all, for that matter..
Yeah I agree. I don't see this happening anytime soon, if at all. Especially looking within a few years down the road.
Motorola should just concentrate on making better quality hardware and leave th software to people who know what they are doing. Motorola use to mean quality, now it's just another phone maker in a sea of the same devices running the same software with nothing really revolutionary to offer buyers. If moto could make an android device with the quality of their razor they would destroy the competition.
The rumor that Moto is hiring software egr's has a glimmer of truth (and subsequently embellished for tabloid consumption). Moto is learning that there is a downside to the Android gravy train, which every co and its sister is jumping onto, and that is lack of differentiation.
Co's are trying different things. Asus is doing the integrated keyboard with the Transformer. HTC has the active digitizer where you can use a stylus. Archos is leaning on its PMP roots with strong multimedia support. But for the majority, differentiation will be minimal (mostly a custom GUI). The main determinant will be price. In other words, Android tabs will be commodity status very soon. This is good for the consumers, but not for the vendors.
This isn't the smartphone market any more, where supply is constrained by the carriers playing as gatekeepers. Price competition will be intense, and slapping on a custom GUI (as has been the practice for smartphones) will no longer be enough. Premium brands in smartphones do not automatically translate to the tablet market.
It'll be a free-for-all. And the guys that win will be those with the best value-add, brand strength, and distribution muscle. For the first, you need software peeps. Which is why Moto is stocking up.
Digital Man said:
Might I also point out that Google started as a search engine, not a software company either.
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This sentence does not make any sense
hi_its_ryan said:
This sentence does not make any sense
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Just saying that something doesn't make sense isn't very helpful. Try explaining WHY it doesn't make sense.
That would add something to the discussion.
http://www.ifans.com/blog/26252/
Found this yesterday. Why is Apple so (derogatory term)? What do u guys think? I personally love android and I have an ipod touch which even when u jailbreak and mod isn't nearly as customizable
Sent from your Mom's Jitterbug
That's crazy!!! How can apple patent data structure. Or whatever the hell they did. I swear apple is skynet. Apple sucks I will never buy any apple product. +1 to the zune (forget iPod)
Sent from my HTC EVO shift 4G running the latest and greatest cyanogen using the XDA app.
Apple is running out of ways to innovate I think so is going after the competition.
Evo_Shift said:
Apple is running out of ways to innovate I think so is going after the competition.
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More or less this. Apple isn't used to real competition and they are getting desperate.
Sent from my PG06100 using XDA App
Lol there just mad cus every new htc phone blows the iphone out of the water! They always try to innovate something thats been done.like there dual core chip sucks compared to the evo 3 d chip or other dual core phones and tablets.moneyhungry company wants all the money and to eliminate the competition noooot gunna happen i personally hate apple products theres too much to list about why they are overpriced and old technology that they claim to be breaking lol for example a 3k laptops p.c vs a macbook pro is not even a laughing matter its sad the p.c is way ahead in technology apples just trying to make people feel safe with there ****ty operating system that if u ask me sucks!!
southernstyle said:
http://www.ifans.com/blog/26252/
Found this yesterday. Why is Apple so (derogatory term)? What do u guys think? I personally love android and I have an ipod touch which even when u jailbreak and mod isn't nearly as customizable
Sent from your Mom's Jitterbug
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Sent from my PG06100 using XDA App
After reading both patents and the portions of the claims made by Apple, I suppose the ITC is right. HTC does infringe on the patents, but so does every other computer and smartphone manufacturer.
In the first patent, what Apple seems to have been allowed to process is the method by which a computer can search for, identify, and allocate actions to strings of data in a system comprising of a processor, ram, and disk storage. Kind of like the context menu used in every operating system produced today that has a graphical interface.
The second patent is a little harder to understand. It claims that Apple's people invented what boils down to symmetric multiprocessing using a WAN, so long as the device being used to process this plurality of realtime services to and from a number of independent applications and devices is embodied by a hardware device with programmable software. Which also sounds like just about any computer currently made.
I think the ITC will overrule the initial decision, given that both of these patents are old and these practices are in use worldwide by every computing company. If this were upheld, I can't think of a single smartphone manufacturer that would be allowed to import devices anymore.
Evo_Shift said:
Apple is running out of ways to innovate I think so is going after the competition.
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I think this is squarely an attack on free culture and open source software. I mean, I don't see why WP7 isn't infringing on these patents either.
When your competitor is open source and royalty-free, the only way to compete is by making a better product. Although others may disagree, I think Android is a far superior product - Apple's operating system has to run on about 10 devices, a lot of which are no longer supported - and since it's open source, its mindshare is essentially infinite, and it will continue improving beyond Apple's products.
Apple's other problem is their walled-garden approach. The reason they lost all their mindshare is because they choose not to produce something viable for a wide-range of devices. That's the primary reason they lost so much mindshare and market share. They introduced a market and immediately cordoned themselves off to a corner of it before they even had any competitors! The door was wide open for a competitor and of course, Google stepped in. There were others of course, like HP, Palm, maybe Intel and Microsoft but they never got their act together. I still shed a tear every time I think of Nokia and Symbian.
Let's not forget that these inventions are mind-numbingly obvious. If someone texts you a number, obviously you would want to call it or save it, right? Not to mention that email clients and webbrowsers have been autoformatting websites and email addresses since the dawn of time, so there's ubiquitous prior art out there. The first patent should be struck down immediately. I don't even know what the second patent is supposed to be, but it sounds really vague and BS.
Finally, what HTC says is true. It's sad that Apple's wasting not only their own resources, but all their enemies' resources as well on legal fees. What this is showing is that patent litigation is hampering innovation rather than stimulating it. In a fast-moving field like mobile development, where products are long since obsolete once they expire, software patents make no sense, they only hamper innovation, and they should be banned.
I agree, anyone ever thought of submitting a formal response to the lawsuit. I'm sure it it went to every xda forum we could a bunch of support. Its not perfect but its how out law system works. Lol, the ball has to start somewhere ya know?
Sent from my HTC EVO shift 4G running the latest and greatest cyanogen using the XDA app.
I agree with the point that Apple is not being innovative and scared of the competition. IOS hasn't changed at all, the devices are all by Apple and they are too locked down. Android is open source there are a good number of manufacturers which give ppl options. I own an iPod touch and its nice for playing music but theres really nothing to it. Most ppl who own apple products don't know anything about them. I know a lot of ppl who think that since its called iPhone 4G, they get 4G data. Now I can say that Apple started a huge thing with capacitive screens and the whole touch screen and apps, but a good business should keep coming up with new things instead of saying here's what we made, this is all you get, and everyone thinks its the best.
Sent from your Mom's Jitterbug
Well, things are not looking very good for Samsung right at the moment. A judge in Germany has declared that until this whole IP lawsuit by Apple is settled, Samsung cannot sell their new Galaxy Tab 10.1 anywhere in the EU except for the Netherlands. A similar ruling in Australia previously blocked sales down under as well.
Many pundits are saying they expect this to be the first falling rocks of a judicial landslide in Apple's favor that will savage Samsung's reputation as a rising player in the mobile space and force them to either withdraw most of the Galaxy line of products from sale or pay a massive sum to Apple...or possibly both.
This decision and the mindset behind it pisses me off. Remember that a lie unchallenged becomes the truth, and may then be used to support further lies. The lies that have become truth amongst the digital intelligentsia due to being unchallenged (or at least by having the challenges shouted down too often) are that "Apple invented the GUI" (not true, that was Xerox), that "Apple invented the Smartphone" (not true, that was probably Palm with the Treo or Nokia) and that "Apple invented using Apps" (not true, I had some great Apps on my PocketPC and my Treo both, only they were still called Programs). You can read those same fables almost every day, with the word "invented" being used in place of the more honest terms "popularized" or "helped develop", on almost all tech blogs and newspapers on the net.
Those fables are now being used to support the far broader fable that "Apple invented mobile computing" which to a degree was upheld by this German judge when he supported Apple's claim that any flat rectangle with a large touch screen is essential stolen from Cupertino. This sort of thinking, for all kinds of reasons, is just plain wrong.
So at first I fumed...but then I thought it all through again, and saw that the worst case scenario may not be so bad after all, and that to a degree Samsung brought it on themselves. Are Galaxy products similar to Apple iOS devices? Sure, especially the TouchWiz GUI. Faced with a market that clearly loved the way the iPhone looked and operated, Samsung opted to give them a slightly tweaked version of what they loved rather then try to convince them to try something new. It is tough to blame them...look at Microsoft. All critics agreed that Windows Phone 7 was fresh and innovative and a good start that would improve rapidly...and consumers STILL stayed away in droves. MS is staying the course and betting that eventually WP7 will catch on, but that takes a company willing to burn an enormous amount of money and patience...which most companies just can't do the way that Redmond can.
Therefore Samsung pandered to the public's current tastes and may now pay the price for that....but we as users may see something good come out of this.
Am I the only one that is bored to tears by the iOS interface? Can't we move beyond the minimalist Apple design concept that seems to inspire almost every phone and tablet available today? Perhaps if the courts side with Apple in this lawsuit, it will force Samsung and other tech companies to innovate again, to take risks on new form factors and different ways to present content and features, to go beyond the big rectangle with the large touchscreen and the app icons. If products are not allowed to look like an iPhone anymore, what WILL new products look like? I have no idea...and I like that.
People have spent a lot of time looking for an iPhone/iPad killer...but for a product to truly compete with those heavyweights it has to first of all be DIFFERENT from them. Experience has shown that if you try to beat Steve Jobs at his own game, you will lose and just be another snide jab in his next keynote. For a product to succeed it first has to stand out in both form and function. Win or lose, hopefully this lawsuit will make that clear to Samsung....or somebody.
EDIT: Here is an interesting note...Samsung is not alone in being a target for Apple's ire. They are also suing Motorola in Europe over the design of the Xoom. COuld a similar injunction be seen soon that will end Xoom sales in Europe? Read the details at http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/08/apple-is-also-suing-motorola-in-europe.html
I will hope apple lose in their anti competitive behavior. If apple win this battle, there will be more ridiculous court case eg, Toshiba will sue apple for the 'look and feel' like a computer, IBM will sue cos having the word 'OS' , Ford will sue every car with four wheels, MS will sue any system for having a boot up screen... I want my galaxy tab 8.9 now!!!!
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don't wanna be a smartshitter but Ford didn't invent the car my friend^^
That was Mr Daimler from Germany who build the "first" car and Mr Benz who build the first "modern" car years before Ford...and who knows what these nasty germans will do^^
greetz
MasterJam882 said:
don't wanna be a smartshitter but Ford didn't invent the car my friend^^
That was Mr Benz from Germany...and who knows what these nasty germans will do^^
greetz
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True, but Ford spent a lot of time and newsprint saying that Ford invented the "mass produced" car, eventually dropping the mass produced part. Now if you ask people what the first car was, a sizable majority (especially in the US) will say the Model T Ford. Just like most people now would say that Apple invented the Tablet.
rschenck did you have a look at the actual community design in question? for me it looks like if this lawsuite is a win for apple, nobody else will be allowed to actually built tablets anymore... so i guess this will just hold back the tab 10.1 for a while on european market, but not stop samsung at all...
edit: and this has solely to do with the case design, nothing about the interface there...
rschenck, an excellent post about a very important subject. I agree that this could be a reason for Samsung and others to boost innovation and creativity.
In general, it seems just madness to me that a company like Apple is able to prevent others using similar form factor. I suppose the German judge is not to blame, he's just doing his job (well I didn't really check if he had a choice. I guess it's the ones that make the legislation who would need to be educated.
Edit:
Btw how likely is it that a person buying a phone accidentally gets a Samsung because he/she thinks it's an iPhone? Come on, tell me people aren't that stupid. Oh well, I guess there must be fair amount of those who can't read, shopping for smartphones. But still, there's the picture of an apple...
I wonder if Apple has thought of suing apple farmers for growing products that resemble their logo. Just think about it: the poor customer thinks he's getting an iPhone and when he gets home he finds out he bought a fruit.
FadeFx said:
rschenck did you have a look at the actual community design in question? for me it looks like if this lawsuite is a win for apple, nobody else will be allowed to actually built tablets anymore... so i guess this will just hold back the tab 10.1 for a while on european market, but not stop samsung at all...
edit: and this has solely to do with the case design, nothing about the interface there...
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I am not sure of your point in the first paragraph, but based on what I think you are saying I agree that if Apple wins all it is asking for, that other companies will need to look to radical new designs and Google may need to relax their hardware restrictions to a great degree to allow companies to compete.
The German decision just hinges on the form factor of the Galaxy Tab 10.1, but the GUI and TouchWiz interface play a big part in the overall legal argument.
Here is a good breakdown of the lawsuit and what Apple is claiming...http://thisismynext.com/2011/04/19/apple-sues-samsung-analysis/
Still a bit silly on apple, they think they own the form factor of a tablet. Just like Sony decided they own the invention of the TV screen. The 10.1 is nothing like the ipad, for a start it's 16:4 ratio whether other is 4:3, how on earth one can be mistaken a square for a rectangle. I hope the Beatles start suing apple for the name
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okpc said:
I hope the Beatles start suing apple for the name
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Been there done that....Jobs won.
Ok, I hope LG will sued apple for using 'touch' as an interface.
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See my edit above...Motorola joins the fray as well.
Last year I wanted to buy a new smartphone, and as an Apple fanboy I only thought about buying an iPhone. Unfortunately in my country when the iPhone 4 was launched it costed around €650 which was too expensive for my wallet. Then I met the Galaxy S, which was basically kind of an iPhone rip-off but was €250 cheaper. I bought the Galaxy S and today it's still my phone.
So yes, in the end, if the i9000 didn't exist I guess I would have probably ended up buying the iPhone, and Apple could easily argue that they lost at least one customer because the TouchWiz UI and overall design looks pretty much like the iPhone.
I know there's more people in the world like me, I know how many times non tech savvy people asked me if I had bought an iPhone when they saw my Samsung phone for the first time... so in the end we must admit that Apple has a point
The iPhone has a very strong product image among the consumer and Samsung capitalized on that!
Look at it like this, apple sucks! The mac is a pc! Windows stomped apple for years and still does. Jobs never could get it right. Microsoft wins because they have one, not many ideas. The pc was made to be universal, the outside can be anything you or I want it to be. Ios and android are nothing alike. All apple is concerns about is the fact people are tired of being told what they can do with the crapple they bought! That's why I switched. When jobs dies, see what happens! Apple will rape the ios trying to get back to the top! Can I use words instead of icons to open an app or display the weather, not on crapple! Can a maxi pad hook to a server to fix an issue, nope! It's an over sized ipod! Now samsung screwed themselves with the 10.1! Look at it, one cable that looks just like apples, one port, the damn cheap plastic, it wreaks of copy cat! Apple couldn't patent the use of "market" cause then the flea market and grocery market would eat their lunch! Apple is losing the war and they know it! All they are doing is slowing their eventual death! I say we invent a toy and call it the iplug! Of course as soon as apple hears it, they will sue. An apple with the letter I on top! Only problem apple is unaware that it's an adult toy! How pathetic would they look?
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@rschenk
Nice to take a break from flashing and bricking and then puffing and panting.........
Firstly,their TAB went on sale in India and Australia today I believe.
I reckon the biggest market for Samsung is all-Asia inclusive of big brother China where Apple will not be able to stop anything!In fact,Chinese stores started selling 'Hi-phone 5' today,for virtually a song.
Yes,where these firms make a mistake is the 'Me-too' attitude like you mentioned in the case of the GUI viz TOUCHWIZ in the case of Samsung and of course the form factor.
All said and done,it's 'dog eat dog' out there with android itself being under very severe attack from Apple/Microsoft.The biggest gainer eventually would be the customers with some real differentiating possibilities beyond the mere price of these expensive gadgets!
ps---really enjoyed your post!
i want to sue steve jobs because he looks like someone i know
Great thread ! i totally agree with you on this, I do like the Samsung android devices, BUT they do look a lot like the iphone, just like the MIUI rom (which im using lol)
It would be great if Samsung made massive changes to their devices, and something 10 x better than iOS which to be honest.... is nice..
Who knows whats going to happen, maybe its just bullying on a mass scale, Maybe its for the best... But no matter what happens, I will never own an iphone, I will go back to a nokia 6210 if i have too.
I dont rape iphone users, I havent got the balls (pun intended!) But for me, i hate apple, i hate the restrictions, the forcing of using itunes only. and all the other **** they make you do.
I want a phone that i can suit to my needs, and do what i want to it. And thats why i am an android user. Its not Samsung that i like.... its android, so as long as android continues... i couldnt give a **** !!
To be honest,
I love the quality of Samsung products, and this made me kinda fan-boy of them. Because their quality is superb. If there was a better company I would switch but there is not. (Depending on the device of course, canon makes better reflex camera, no doubt, just as example).
You can look at this as a step to the future because companies now might improve their product designs, but we are talking about tablets. What do you think tablets look like? I don't see tablets in a pyramid case... honestly, for me it is just a huge "what the f*ck".
Thumbs down for Apple and the Judge who is a complete retard.
Regards
There's why our xoom has the funny crap way of being used. Microsoft did it! Let's all mass email Microsoft and tell 'em we are switching to Mac and ios! See what happens to apple. I am sick of buying devices and being told I can't do what I want with it! Next they will stop selling printing paper cuz it's white and rectangled! Then there's the saying the alphabet....abcdefghjklmnopqrstuvxyz! Apple didn't invent crap! They stole most of everything they make! I say we start a petition to stop apple's lawsuits. Or we can file a class action against apple for being idiots! And another thing! Why do Mac's work with windows? Oh yeah apple's CPU sucked!!!!!
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Well, it's a company's job to make money to its shareholders. Can we really blame Apple alone for using methods like this? After all it seems that (legally) Apple has a case here so it's worth trying. Imo the question is should there be patent and IP laws that allow patenting a rectangular shape
Intelligent thinking. Very well written too. You deserve a pat on shoulder.
Most of us are now aware that the sale of Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 tablets have been blocked in Europe (at least for now) by an injunction in favor of Apple's lawsuit...now it appears they are suing Motorola in Europe as well.
(Source: FOSS)
Can the end of the Xoom in Europe be near at hand?
Read my analysis of the Apple/Samsung situation at http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=16511779#post16511779
That's why I bought my wife a xoom now.
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>Can the end of the Xoom in Europe be near at hand?
That'd be true in two months, regardless.
>Read my analysis of the Apple/Samsung situation
Honestly, you're ranting. That's fine, if it makes you feel better, although not sure why you should feel worse. It's big companies fighting it out. Let them.
Give the judge the benefit of the doubt for competence. If the suit was frivolous, Apple wouldn't have secured an injunction. Whatever legal merit the suit has, frankly, we don't know. Getting upset about it doesn't make us understand it any better.
I will never ever purchase an apple product ever
inspiron41 said:
I will never ever purchase an apple product ever
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My rant:
Likewise. I bought the second Gen iPod when they were a decent company. Then they got in their mind that they can take over the world (which they might) but I think that is very indecent to innovation. I have never had such a hatred to one company and always will.
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It's interesting to me how Apple and Apple fanboys tout their products as the best in the world, yet they feel the need to sue every mobile electronics maker in the world.
It's about time Apple tried to sue someone with a strong patent portfolio. As long as Motorola don't roll over, Apple *are* going to get a bloody nose, because suing over patents nowadays seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the merit of your case.
If there's a rant to be made, it's people's propensity to paint things in good/evil terms ("XYZ is EVIL!"), get more partisan ("I hate THEM! They're the ENEMY!"), and become more blindered in their views ("I'll never buy anything from XYZ!"). It's a self-reinforcing cycle.
Obviously, I'm not just talking about something as trivial as whatever brand of tech toys you espouse. The descent to frothing fanaticism is widespread enough that it is damn annoying and frightening at the same time.
e.mote said:
If there's a rant to be made, it's people's propensity to paint things in good/evil terms ("XYZ is EVIL!"), get more partisan ("I hate THEM! They're the ENEMY!"), and become more blindered in their views ("I'll never buy anything from XYZ!"). It's a self-reinforcing cycle.
Obviously, I'm not just talking about something as trivial as whatever brand of tech toys you espouse. The descent to frothing fanaticism is widespread enough that it is damn annoying and frightening at the same time.
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So you're saying is it would be OK to live in a dictatorship country if it was pretty and had good weather?
Sure Apple makes good products, however there are very good if not better alternatives. Apple improves on one product in the market and makes it incredible. Then other companies start making the products better as well and Apple sues them. Happened to mp3 players and iPods, now happening for tablets and iPads. It hurts innovation and I know Google and Microsoft also sue companies but not as much and not as narrow minded/take over the market mentality that Apple has. Now don't get me wrong I have owned Apple before, and yes their products are well made and innovative. But so are a lot of other brands.
But I do agree on the grander scheme of things if we arn't just talking tech toys that yes it is not a good idea to be narrow minded on anything. I believe that's what you were trying to get at.
e.mote said:
If there's a rant to be made, it's people's propensity to paint things in good/evil terms ("XYZ is EVIL!"), get more partisan ("I hate THEM! They're the ENEMY!"), and become more blindered in their views ("I'll never buy anything from XYZ!"). It's a self-reinforcing cycle.
Obviously, I'm not just talking about something as trivial as whatever brand of tech toys you espouse. The descent to frothing fanaticism is widespread enough that it is damn annoying and frightening at the same time.
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You are saying this as if it is a new phenomenon.
======short version========
Put simply, it is easier to deal with absolutes and it is easier to convey opinion to others in absolutes.
======long version========
It is human nature to ally with a particular group, society, or set of ideals and denigrate the things that differ from the ideal you are allied with. Countries, religions, sports teams, type of car.... the list is as long as there are comparable objects. It is possible for people to see in shades of right rather than absolutes but this provides no stable platform on which to hang a set of beliefs.
- It is far easier to say "Motorola is incompetent and I will never use them again" than it is to say "Motorola made some serious mistakes with the Xoom but they did do some things right."
- It is easier to say "Motorola is out to screw early Xoom adopters." than it is to say "Motorola is not communicating well with early Xoom adopters."
- It is easier to say "thou shall not kill" than it is to say "thou shall not kill unless it is needed to preserve other life"
- It is easier to say "Other religions are wrong" than it is to say "other religions are different."
- and it is easier to say "Apple is evil" than it is to say "Apple's stance on the similarity between the iPad and Xoom is not reasonable."
Absolutes allow a person to place an idea, group, or company into a position within opinion that requires less thought and little debate. This is comforting to most, requires less consideration, and makes life easier to deal with. The more you deal with a specific idea/group/company the more details you learn and the less likely you are to paint your opinion on the subject with such broad strokes. No one wants to try and know everything in such detail however.
So while it would be better if mankind as a whole took an effort to see the merit in differing opinions on subjects, it is not the nature of man. To try and remove the polarizing nature of the psyche would possibly lead to less conflict but it would also to moral and ethical confusion.
There have been and are individuals who have evolved past this need but those individuals are not common, indeed the most notable have been quite extraordinary.
Here is one take on the patent issue that underlies the various recent legal spats. The commentary delves into more detail than the usual regurgitated pap, and the arguments made are reasonable, at least based on the material as presented.
http://thisismynext.com/2011/08/11/broken-patent-system/
http://www.daniweb.com/hardware-and...obile-devices/news/376718/1621537#post1621537
DaniWeb can reveal exactly what it is that Apple thinks Samsung has copied, and we hope you are sitting down because the actual community design images contained within that certification are basic to say the least.
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so, what do you think is going to happen? i own a xoom and i am planning to buy a new one to my girlfriend but now i am afraid of that samsung and motorola can cut off their support on these devices.. i dont want to own a device which has no support of new updates/market or accesorries ..
besides i am in turkey and my xoom has been boutgh from the usa by the man who has sold it to me.. so i do not have a bill but only a serial number, i can check the warranty from the motorola web page but what is going to happen if they decide to "erase" the samsung galaxy tab 10.1 and motorola xoom from the market and give everyones money back?
_delice_doluca_ said:
so, what do you think is going to happen? i own a xoom and i am planning to buy a new one to my girlfriend but now i am afraid of that samsung and motorola can cut off their support on these devices.. i dont want to own a device which has no support of new updates/market or accesorries ..
besides i am in turkey and my xoom has been boutgh from the usa by the man who has sold it to me.. so i do not have a bill but only a serial number, i can check the warranty from the motorola web page but what is going to happen if they decide to "erase" the samsung galaxy tab 10.1 and motorola xoom from the market and give everyones money back?
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I don't think you need to worry. Get the Xoom for your girlfriend. If you root it (or even if not) you will continue to have plenty of support for your tablet from this community as well as from Google/Moto. I just think that Apple is not allowed to take over the world. We have to take a stand some time, somewhere.
nooomoto said:
It's interesting to me how Apple and Apple fanboys tout their products as the best in the world, yet they feel the need to sue every mobile electronics maker in the world.
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What is really funny is apple was invented by steve jobs stealing open source programming from someone else, patenting it and putting his name n it, then just having a slick campaign that if u dont buy apple ur not individualistic and being different is cool (as long as it is done in groups...). Then says his product cant be hacked on a tv commercial... Within 48 hours they pulled the commercial because four major hacks came out... So they steal, prey on peoples need to be "cool" and their fear of being hacked... But then turn around and start suing all their competitors. This is not new for them and it is a business tactic now... A pathetic way to slow up progress of their competitors... And their iphone sucks... No expandable memory, no battery pull ability, no open source, poor reception, charges for wifi tethering and it isnt built in, no flash.... Etc etc..
To play on their gay commercials... If you don't have an iphone, well you probably have a better smart phone... Even blackberry and nokia kick iphone ass... Rant over
rockhumper said:
What is really funny is apple was invented by steve jobs stealing open source programming from someone else, patenting it and putting his name n it, then just having a slick campaign that if u dont buy apple ur not individualistic and being different is cool (as long as it is done in groups...). Then says his product cant be hacked on a tv commercial... Within 48 hours they pulled the commercial because four major hacks came out... So they steal, prey on peoples need to be "cool" and their fear of being hacked... But then turn around and start suing all their competitors. This is not new for them and it is a business tactic now... A pathetic way to slow up progress of their competitors... And their iphone sucks... No expandable memory, no battery pull ability, no open source, poor reception, charges for wifi tethering and it isnt built in, no flash.... Etc etc..
To play on their gay commercials... If you don't have an iphone, well you probably have a better smart phone... Even blackberry and nokia kick iphone ass... Rant over
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Though I enthusiastically agree with what you are saying...could I ask you not to use the term "gay" as a negative? I'd go with "To play on their ridiculous/boring/really irritating commercials..."
Anyway...it's FRIDAY!
okantomi said:
Though I enthusiastically agree with what you are saying...could I ask you not to use the term "gay" as a negative? I'd go with "To play on their ridiculous/boring/really irritating commercials..."
Anyway...it's FRIDAY!
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Totally agree on using better negative terms...I would actually call them "smug and arrogant" more than anything else.
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whenever I see someone with an iphone or ipad, I automatically assume this person is 100% gullible and I can convince them to literally buy ANYTHING as long as I make it sound especially hip.
MitchRapp said:
whenever I see someone with an iphone or ipad, I automatically assume this person is 100% gullible and I can convince them to literally buy ANYTHING as long as I make it sound especially hip.
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That's a pretty extreme statement.
Apple has the best marketing in the tech world. They also have some decent products, with plenty of objective reasons to choose Apple over the alternatives.
However, remember that marketing is simply making people aware of a product and its features.
I find when talking to people that decisions on platform aren't made over which commercial was the coolest, but rather the features and/or familiarity with the brand.
I would argue that very few people are so superficial as to choose a platform based on "hip"-ness.
The real problem here is not Apple. Whatever you think of iOS, they are just a company using every tool at their disposal to succeed. If roles were reversed any company would do the same.
The problem is a hopelessly broken, pitifully antiquated Patent system that allows absurd patents to be approved.
This problem is compounded by the abuse of "patent troll" companies that never developed a technology or released a product, but simply bought patents and create lawsuits.
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