Database Users

ROM-Dev madness!

Foreword: I mean this in the most constructive way possible. While I'm not a <android> developer, it occurs to me that with the wealth of Android ROM-devs and an excellent base of testers (like myself, an unexcellent but present tester), there has to be a better way.
I love XDA-Dev as a resource, and it's been a godsend since I got my MT3G. I've had the opportunity to use some very well done builds which have been time-invested by their developers. I've learned a lot about my device, and am beginning to understand Android as a platform. Here's the beef:
Some ROM-posts are 1000+ pages long. While I could read all 1000+ pages if warranted, it's simply inefficient. What information am I after? I want to know:
Does it work on my phone?
What's the latest version?
Where's it at?
Are there any specific bugs on my phone with this build?
Who else is using this build, and what hardware are they using?
What bugs are being worked on?
What workarounds are applicable to this build?
What bugs are open and need community feedback?
etc...
Is there some sort of bug-tracking setup that could be used to facilitate this? I don't mean or intend to steer *anything* away from XDA-Developers, per se, but this current forum method doesn't seem very conducive to making forward progress.
<shrug> I know, I know, I'm a noob around here and should just work with the herd. I've seen other comments touching on some of these issues, so I thought I'd throw it out there. I apologize if it's been brought up before and shot down.
Hey, what about this? I was looking for a semi-authoritative list of Android ROMs that matched what I outlined above and came across it.
If I had the resources I'd volunteer time/materials to help the cause in that light, but being the schmuck I am (ya' know, working full time and school part time), I can't offer anything substantive. So while this might sound like a gripe, maybe it will compel someone else to make some magic happen. That, or have my account disabled
Any thoughts?

I understand where you are coming from.. but I don't find it that hard to find the rom and information I am after.. all it takes is a little time..
Why not help out by adding to the wiki?

I dont see how this has to do with development, you are just as guilty as the people you speak of.

xyzulu said:
I understand where you are coming from.. but I don't find it that hard to find the rom and information I am after.. all it takes is a little time..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hear ya, it's just not a very concise method and I'm sure you've seen "what's the best build" & "will this ROM work on my phone" and "hey are there any issues with this build", etc...
xyzulu said:
Why not help out by adding to the wiki?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've thought about it, and went as far as the edit screen a few times. Then it's like "aww crap, here goes a few hours...". Back to homework
Jrbourque said:
I dont see how this has to do with development, you are just as guilty as the people you speak of.
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Click to collapse
I think it has everything to do with development, advancement of the builds flying around here, and support of the folks that put their time into it.
Maybe you misinterpreted what I was saying, but I surely wasn't trying to assign guilt to anyone. Things are the way they are because they got that way - doesn't make it right, 'doesn't make it wrong. I just thought maybe there's a better way to support the community.
It's all good.

Jrbourque said:
I dont see how this has to do with development, you are just as guilty as the people you speak of.
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Click to collapse
It's this kind of attitude that is putting a lot of people off. The OP has made some very good and valid points and deserves at least a response to the points he has made, not just a one sentence put down.

want to learn how to do stuff

so i would like to learn how to do things for my phone and possibly help with the dev community. but i know practically nothing about linux or how to do anything useful. i am looking for links or other useful information to help me get started. i have lots of time on my hands and learn pretty quick. i assume i would start with the sdk (would i use the 1.5 one since thats what our phones are currently running on, or is the 2.0 out yet? and would i try from there), but other than that have no idea what else would be useful.
so.... yeah. helpful link to good info or any good e books, or anything like that that will get me going. thanks in advance

i would use the newest SDK, 2.0.1, and make sure that it will function on the emulators for both 1.5 and 2.0.1, frankly if you arent already proficient with linux or java, this wont be a easy thing to get into. However I WILL point out how threads like this are terribly pointless... you arent helping anyone out, and frankly you're asking for information that is quite available.

thanks for nothing. other than making me feel stupid.

Some help, maybe.
ix3u said:
thanks for nothing. other than making me feel stupid.
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Click to collapse
I've been spending quite a bit of time on the threads here, I too am in search of more information specific to the android. I don't know that I'll ever be able to contribute too much to the devs, but at least I can understand my phone better, and help out with answering questions on the forums.
I would think that starting with something like creating a theme would be a good place to start, and would get you a little more familiar with the ways of android. Then I would move up into other things, and before you know it you will be much more proficient. It's all about starting somewhere. (and having a good backup)
Here's some posts / links that I have collected that i thought might aid me when i create some time to start the same endeavor...
* Ratcom's guide to creating Theme's
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=574167
* An Android Developers Guide (with tutorials, and tons of info)
http://developer.android.com/guide/index.html
* How-to's regarding android application development:
http://www.brighthub.com/mobile/google-android/topics/guides.aspx
* Tutorials and exercises
http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2007-11-19-n27.html
I haven't looked at most of those, but hopefully they will be a good start. I look forward to the day when I start looking at them too.
Hopefully that's helpful, it's all I can offer.
Good luck, and godspeed
-AndyS-

thanks., that is more like what i was looking for

jmhalder said:
i would use the newest SDK, 2.0.1, and make sure that it will function on the emulators for both 1.5 and 2.0.1, frankly if you arent already proficient with linux or java, this wont be a easy thing to get into. However I WILL point out how threads like this are terribly pointless... you arent helping anyone out, and frankly you're asking for information that is quite available.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmmm. So much for helping someone out who at least has the desire to learn and grow to be more. Communist much? or just a Liberal Democrat? I applaud him for trying. Who knows more about where to get the information other than XDA? Hell a google search on this stuff turns up mostly useless garbage anyways. Why spend hours digging it up when someone else may know a good resource.

Lets refrain from flames/rebuttals please.

I have a few FAQ's and tutorials on my site. Also checking things like my release notes and mind map (linked in v1.0 release) will help. There aren't any full on tutorials but it's just a good place for general info.
Check my sig.

As flipz stated, there's no good centralized place for organized information. The best advice is truly to search this site, and search with google. It's an uphill battle getting that base of knowledge built up to get you going. I know, I'm still working my way up the hill. I thought about putting a site together to organize and share information but that would take away too much from what little time I have to spend on rom developement.
I doub't that is really the answer you were hoping to get but unfortunately thats the grim reality of things. Perhaps someone with a lot more free time than I, will put together a site of their own and compile and organize all kinds of good information in a central place. It would truly be a boon to the android community.

obelisk79 said:
As flipz stated, there's no good centralized place for organized information. The best advice is truly to search this site, and search with google. It's an uphill battle getting that base of knowledge built up to get you going. I know, I'm still working my way up the hill. I thought about putting a site together to organize and share information but that would take away too much from what little time I have to spend on rom developement.
I doub't that is really the answer you were hoping to get but unfortunately thats the grim reality of things. Perhaps someone with a lot more free time than I, will put together a site of their own and compile and organize all kinds of good information in a central place. It would truly be a boon to the android community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd be happy to bring some writers on to my site or to host some tutorials or anything that others have written. My job offers me a lot of flexibility and free time, however like you I am spending all of it developing right now. This kitchen is kicking my butt.
Edit: We'll see if I get any hits. http://geekfor.me/news/wanted-writers-for-faq-tutorial-help/

I may be able to help. My freetime seems to come and go, but I’ve always been pretty good at making How-To’s.
What format would be best?
html,pdf,etc…

ix3u said:
so i would like to learn how to do things for my phone and possibly help with the dev community. but i know practically nothing about linux or how to do anything useful. i am looking for links or other useful information to help me get started. i have lots of time on my hands and learn pretty quick. i assume i would start with the sdk (would i use the 1.5 one since thats what our phones are currently running on, or is the 2.0 out yet? and would i try from there), but other than that have no idea what else would be useful.
so.... yeah. helpful link to good info or any good e books, or anything like that that will get me going. thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good thread, thanks for starting it.
I'm in a pretty similar spot. 2 weeks ago I had zero exposure to or knowledge about Android or Linux. I'm proficient with Windows. In the last 2 weeks I've rooted, flashed RA 123, 151 & then 152. I backed up, ran an optimizer .zip file, restored, flashed fresh 1.0 and learned some very cool stuff. I'm comfortable in the terminal but I'm getting to where I'm not sure what I should or want to learn next. Also, although I've done these things easily half of it was just copying instructions from one of the fantastically helpful posts on this forum. Before I learn what to do next I'd like to understand the system better. I checked out wiki and ended up bookmarking a page that explains kernal computing, and a few others, lots of reading ahead
As a noob I have tried to learn without getting in the way too much. I'm glad you admitted your noobness and asked for some direction, you're not the only one who could use it!

obelisk79 said:
As flipz stated, there's no good centralized place for organized information. The best advice is truly to search this site, and search with google. It's an uphill battle getting that base of knowledge built up to get you going. I know, I'm still working my way up the hill. I thought about putting a site together to organize and share information but that would take away too much from what little time I have to spend on rom developement.
I doub't that is really the answer you were hoping to get but unfortunately thats the grim reality of things. Perhaps someone with a lot more free time than I, will put together a site of their own and compile and organize all kinds of good information in a central place. It would truly be a boon to the android community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sounds like what the original replyee said but said much more tact.

I'm hoping that was a compliment in a round about way.

THIS is an amazing resource. I've stopped in there before but wasn't ready to poke around too much.
I'll see you guys/gals in the spring!

I'd like to offer some insight, but there's really not much more I could add than what's already stated and linked above. Everything you need to know can be found (usually) easily on the android developer site, or in a google search. The hard part is putting those pieces together to know what needs to be done in order to accomplish what. That's not an easy task: check out cyanogen's github projects (http://github.com/cyanogen). He's made modifications to the kernel, Android applications, core frameworks, configurations, recovery images, packaged resources/images, and more. It's not just one piece that goes into these builds.
Most of what you see around here (and this is certainly not to take away from all the great work I'm referring to, because this is just as important as everything else), are people modifying what was already done somewhere else, and making it work for their own phone. And really that's all it takes to move progress forward.
You don't have to be a linux whiz or a Java programmer to be able to make progress with your phone- you just need to understand how each particular piece works in order to make progress on that piece. If you want to make a theme, you need to know what jar or apk files contain the resources, and how to replace those images and styles. If you want to add support for the camera you need to know what linux driver it should use, and how Android expects to interact with that driver. Same for supporting accelerometer sensors, etc.
There's no definitive checklist of things you have to know before you can help development, it just depends on what what you want to help with, and your willingness to research how that particular piece works and what it would take to make the necessary changes.

maejrep,
Informative and encouraging. Thanks!

[Q] Is there a full detail guide to rom building?

Hey guy's (please don't flame me to bad still a little new to the forums) I have looked over many guides but they don't really go over Samsung mostly HTC. I have the source from Samsung for the 2.1-update-1 and have been looking at it but not sure what i am really looking at. If anyone can maybe shed some light on it...of course i could be just confusing myself and its simpler then i think. I have been reading a paper on how to build linux from scratch to get that understanding considering Android is linux in all reality...
Thanks ahead of time guys.

Not to be mean, but unless you understand the code, all you'll be doing is copying/pasting into terminal to get a build. Which isn't very useful if you are trying to learn something.
If you are actually looking at building the OS and manipulating the underlying code, go ahead and grab a C book. It'll take even an intelligent person a good deal of time to understand it all.
As far as putting some APKs into a zip file and calling it a rom, well there's tons of stuff on that laying around, most of that is scripting. If you get into rebuiling the APKs with Smalli - there is code involved there - but you will need to know how java works for it to make sense to you there...might as well learn that while your at it.

Well i know C++/C# and java (took them in college and currently use them for my job) so it shouldn't take too long..i guess i just need to dig into the code and go from there. I don't want to copy past thats definitely out of the question. Have any pointers where i should start and see if i can grasp this or just stick with using other custom rom's which in the end if thats what i do that's fine by me just wanted to get into it myself.
PS: didn't take what you said as mean lol any criticism or help is always appreciated.

^
What he said.
There are a bunch of mini-guides to teach you to copy and paste some stuff, but little in terms of a clear concise guide. I've been working on learning to do a rom myself, but I learned to program in C and Java on unix and linux machines in college. You're going to have to spend a lot of time reading and learning things that you won't be sure you'll ever really need to in order to do any meaningful dev work with that source.
Start using linux on a home machine. Start learning C. And pick up a book called "Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment" to begin to understand how the low level parts of a linux operating system work. Then you will be much better prepared to see how it all works together.
edit: Looks like we both replied at the same time. I guess you can ignore the above post.

lol, i will look into that book for sure though. I have been slowly getting back into linux i use to use it all the time then somethings i was working on and a few apps i was using i had to switch to mostly Microsoft and lost a lot of my Linux knowledge (which sucks) but i will start there thanks again!

I think if you are familiar with the code you are ready for what you want to do. Seeing as how you are reading htc development guides tells me your searching cause that's all that you can really find online. You dont know the steps to take to actually build that source your looking at. First thing is you need your development machine set up to build. I hope youve done that already if not, source.android.com will get you through that. You need the sdk and all that. Next you hook the phone up usb debugging and from within your android folder (mydroid) run extract.sh that willful the samsung files into your environment. From here it will be similar to the htc guides for building but you have the files in front of you to edit you just need to research the structure of linux and those files. Also you need to get familiar with building a kernela well to see how they interact. Good luck
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[Q] Need help developing!!!

To answer the question that everyone is thinking as they click on this thread... Yes, I am a noob.
Anyway, I downloaded the Android Kitchen and installed it on a Linux Ubuntu Virtual Machine on my Macbook using VMWare Fusion and i watched a video from theunlockr, but all it really let me do was add in apps, change the rom name and give it a few features but no visual customizations... If i posted a link of the "My ROM" no one would be able to tell a difference in the rom i planned on starting from.
Let me know if there is a different way to create that is actually making ROMs or customizing the ROM in it's entirety instead of small unnoticeable features, let me know if I'm just doing something wrong in my Android Kitchen and let me know if theres an easy way to develop ROMs on Mac without Virtual Machines. (The last one isn't a big worry because linux is very lightweight and runs fine on my computer but please help me on the other two questions)
Thanks in advance,
Adam Ferguson

Welcome Adam.
There's a lot going on in this little phones. It takes time to learn, and you'll probably never learn it all. (But don't let that stop you from trying. It is interesting and geeky fun.) So, I would start reading if you really want to learn. Here's a few links to get you started.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=886641
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=815265
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=723319
(I guess it's easier for me to find my posts, but others have posted some good stuff too.)
Also, I'd read some similar posts in this forum --> http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=613
This same question has been asked a lot in there.

Thanks for the info, I would really like to get into developing.
I also noticed you live in raleigh and thought it was quite a coincidence because in like about an hour from you in Winston Salem, just saying.

AdamFerg said:
Thanks for the info, I would really like to get into developing.
I also noticed you live in raleigh and thought it was quite a coincidence because in like about an hour from you in Winston Salem, just saying.
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Click to collapse
I've bounced between Asheville, Raleigh, and Gastonia... So, I've been through WS several hundred times at least. NC is the place to be. (At least that's what the imports from NY, NJ, PA, etc. tell me.

[DEV HELP][?]Looking to Build a ROM!

well i thought i'd get this up before source for JB (4.1) drops... I'm looking for a dev willing to let me watch them as they build a ROM and make changes to that ROM... no i don't need to come over your house to do this... I was thinking of a live video stream of your screen as you do the work... if you're willing to allow me to watch and maybe answer a few questions in between, i'm willing to learn!!
i learn really fast if i'm watching someone do it which is why i'm taking this approach rather than trying to read through a bunch of threads on this topic... that stuff basically looks like a foreign language to me... especially when they talk linux stuff lol... i can catch on quickly but i need to SEE IT BEING DONE... not reading and having my brain decode what i just read...
so please pass this thread along... the site i'm looking to use is join.me and it can be viewed by more than one person... so if someone else is willing to jump in on the fun and the dev is cool with it... we all can watch as they work their magic...
preferably someone that's gonna be building on crespo/crespo4g... but i'll take whoever is willing to teach!!
disclaimer: i'm not even looking for a real "expert" on the subject... just someone to do the basic work so i can take notes and then do the stuff myself!!
PM me if you're a dev and willing to help out!! what do you have to lose? nothing really... you're just gonna load the program and let it stream as you do the stuff you normall would do...
sn: it doesn't have to be Jelly Bean... but seeing as source is coming out soon... i figured someone will want to start fresh and build from aosp... that's really where i'd like to start from!!

I'd love to watch too
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umm. the best way to do it is to just follow the step by step guides online. doesnt get much easier than that. you watching isn't going to help when they already have all the software installed

derekwilkinson said:
umm. the best way to do it is to just follow the step by step guides online. doesnt get much easier than that. you watching isn't going to help when they already have all the software installed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks but i have everything i need to build a ROM installed and have already built one from CM9 source... i'm talking about all the other edits and things they do... ie: adding in or removing features of a ROM...
and if you re-read my OP... i said reading this stuff is like learning another language... i'm a visual learner... i need to SEE these things then do them... not read them and try to decode whatever i just read...

the1dynasty said:
thanks but i have everything i need to build a ROM installed and have already built one from CM9 source... i'm talking about all the other edits and things they do... ie: adding in or removing features of a ROM...
and if you re-read my OP... i said reading this stuff is like learning another language... i'm a visual learner... i need to SEE these things then do them... not read them and try to decode whatever i just read...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just happen to work for a company the makes tools to help visual learners.
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Yea I'm willing too. I got a few things going here. Along with ubuntu, sdk, java6, android kitchen. I'm more of a visual learner. I've been constantly researching to point where my brain hurts to think android. I need a break. But I'm willing as well. Some devs out there no even respond to help needed. I would love to watch Fergie716 at work tho.
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My video will be up tomorrow (today) in my MIUI thread. I have everything ready for it. I just had a bit too much to drink tonight (its 450am)
Tomorrow afternoon it'll be up
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I also like to watch.
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I agree with the OP, one thing I think is missing (or at least in my experience hard to find) in the Android ROM community is a set of guides on how to properly do things (branch with repo to make a mod, apply patches from other trees, add prebuilt apks, add source provided apps, integrate su, busybox, creating your own vendor, device, adding your kernel, etc)
It's all scattered all over the net, sure you can figure some of it out but if you lower the barrier of entry people will be able to focus their energy on doing better work somewhere else.

gparent said:
I agree with the OP, one thing I think is missing (or at least in my experience hard to find) in the Android ROM community is a set of guides on how to properly do things (branch with repo to make a mod, apply patches from other trees, add prebuilt apks, add source provided apps, integrate su, busybox, creating your own vendor, device, adding your kernel, etc)
It's all scattered all over the net, sure you can figure some of it out but if you lower the barrier of entry people will be able to focus their energy on doing better work somewhere else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i really couldn't have said it any better!!
i know Fergie usually puts out some great tutorials... i used his stuff when i was learning to theme... so hopefully he delivers on this as well... i would still like to do a live "webinar-type" of training tho if any dev is up for that!!
we can get a time going so that everyone can login at the same time and see what's being done...

I'd also like to see how its done, I would love to be able to cook up some things and then release a ROM to the public. I'm sure it's not easy but I'm willing to take a wack at it
Btw are you guys using pretty powerful computers for building ROMS? Or would you say they're average spec?

stellar said:
I'd also like to see how its done, I would love to be able to cook up some things and then release a ROM to the public. I'm sure it's not easy but I'm willing to take a wack at it
Btw are you guys using pretty powerful computers for building ROMS? Or would you say they're average spec?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
mine isn't that great tbh... but it manages to put out something... once your setup is correct and you do your first build... the second build of that ROM is usually a lot faster...
i think average would be around quad core with 8GB RAM... that's my guess based on a few devs i've heard from...

the1dynasty said:
mine isn't that great tbh... but it manages to put out something... once your setup is correct and you do your first build... the second build of that ROM is usually a lot faster...
i think average would be around quad core with 8GB RAM... that's my guess based on a few devs i've heard from...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I like to learn too. But my pc is just dual core 3.0ghz 4gig ram what do you think?
Sent from my Nexus S™

mixtapes08 said:
I like to learn too. But my pc is just dual core 3.0ghz 4gig ram what do you think?
Sent from my Nexus S™
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it will take longer than some other PC's... but that will still work... i'd guess a few hrs to build a ROM... mine is around those specs and it takes a few hrs on the initial build lol

There should also be a thread for porting, kinda like "chef central" where users could get support on certain issues with their ports.. Over there in chef central the people seem to only help people that are building from source.. there's not too much support for people doing ports which is unfortunate because not everyone is skilled enough to build from source and having ports is what keeps some devices alive... In this thread there would be threads where you could post your logcat if your not getting boot and some of the more experienced porters (like fergie for example) could take a look and point you in the right direction. Also there could be guides and tutorials as how to get certain aspects of the ROM working like HWA, WiMax, MMS/SMS so on and so forth... I think that it would really bring a lot of new life to some devices that don't get the support that they should..
Anyone else agree on that or is just me?

evol4g said:
there's not too much support for people doing ports which is unfortunate because not everyone is skilled enough to build from source and having ports is what keeps some devices alive...
Anyone else agree on that or is just me?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with the whole sentiment "more people should build things", but not with "aosp is too hard so we should help people do ports". Unless a port is the only way to get a device working, we definitely should focus on making aosp easier to learn if that's part of a problem the porting people are having.
Anyway, I started my own ROM yesterday and might end up making a wiki to document a bunch of things I'm doing. It's a very stock-ish ROM though, so I won't spend much time writing about adding mods other than a few basic ones.
-IF- I do get around to making the wiki, I will post here about it.
As for the computer, I am using a i7 930 (2.8GHz) with 24GB of RAM.

gparent said:
I agree with the whole sentiment "more people should build things", but not with "aosp is too hard so we should help people do ports". Unless a port is the only way to get a device working, we definitely should focus on making aosp easier to learn if that's part of a problem the porting people are having.
Anyway, I started my own ROM yesterday and might end up making a wiki to document a bunch of things I'm doing. It's a very stock-ish ROM though, so I won't spend much time writing about adding mods other than a few basic ones.
-IF- I do get around to making the wiki, I will post here about it.
As for the computer, I am using a i7 930 (2.8GHz) with 24GB of RAM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
id like to ask.. is making a rom really difficult.. how much java language knowledge would a person need to have to build from source...?

ferozfero said:
id like to ask.. is making a rom really difficult.. how much java language knowledge would a person need to have to build from source...?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, one of the fun things about being a maintainer rather than a developer is that you really don't -need- much knowledge at all.
Everything helps, though. Yesterday I fixed a gcc compilation issue from knowledge of C++ that I acquired over a number of years. It wasn't a hard bug to fix and I could've asked a friend about it instead, but being a programmer lets me get away with fixing mistakes I see in AOSP when it's necessary (it rarely is).
Later, in my kernel compile, I turned on a compilation flag because I knew that a warning (that failed the build due to -Werror) was completely inaccurate. Good luck doing this if you don't know what's a compilation flag, and good luck doing it safely if you're not sure what the warning means and if it is really safe to override it (it often isn't).
If you want to make a ROM and be efficient about it, I think the two most important skills (in order of importance) are the ability to use git and to solve problems. Without a minimum of source control ease, it will be a pain in the ass to add features to your mods or to keep track of changes efficiently (especially when it comes the time to branch off releases and what not). Problem solving is what you do whenever stuff that should work doesn't work. And it's always hard because if it wasn't hard it would be documented already so you wouldn't have the problem.
If you want to build FEATURES for a mod (that is, not repack what others have written), then yes you will need programming knowledge. Java, C and probably C++. Mostly Java for user facing stuff.

great post gparent... that was a wonderful breakdown of how ROM making works... if it's all true (which it sounds like it), then this might be a bit more than i can chew lol... i'm still willing to see someone in action do these things so i have a better understanding of how to put things together and maybe one day i'll take a stab at building my own ROM!!

gparent said:
24GB of RAM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
:what: wow, lol
If any other devs come by I'd love to know what setups you guys use for developing too.
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