Whenever I try flashing a Windows Phone 7 rom to my HD2, i always get an error when it is about 3/4 of the way through flashing 4 partition. This is the error
An error has occurred
Read below for more information
Error Description: send d000ff partition data failed
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (1279)
Error Description: block send fail
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (962)
Error Description: flash write failed.
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (710)
I tried it with both MAGLDR v1.12 and 1.13 and switched SD cards multiple times. I tried switching computers as well as cords. I even tried flashing and older version of LEO70 that I am positive worked months ago. Any ideas? Thanks!
Hi
WHat have you done so far and what have you come from?
I assume youve, hdpsl, radio, magldr then attempt to flash the rom?
What size cards have you tried?
Well I've flashed multiple MAGLDRs, i have a 2gb Micro SD card that works and a 16gb card that I believe is corrupted, but i'm getting the same result from both cards so I don't know if the issue is the MicroSD card.
I'm pretty sure i have the correct HSPL and radio because I flashed the original LEO70 rom way back in January and haven't really modified anything since then. I did load Android on the NAND, but I should think flashing the same exact LEO70 rom with the same laptop should work? So I don't think the HSPL or radio are the issues either.
Thanks for the quick response!
did you reformat your card before flashing wp7?
I'm trying that now... I just flashed a WMO 6.5 ROM and it works perfectly. My computer recognized the 200mb partition on both the cards but is having a hard time formatting the 16gb card (which is most likely corrupted). Is a 2gb SD card enough for WP7?
knollster said:
I'm trying that now... I just flashed a WMO 6.5 ROM and it works perfectly. My computer recognized the 200mb partition on both the cards but is having a hard time formatting the 16gb card (which is most likely corrupted). Is a 2gb SD card enough for WP7?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yh it is barely, i had an old class 4 one, but it was pretty slow.
It would tell you its the card though, although i suspect it is the partition that is the problem.
It worked!
Formatting the SD card worked! I went on the SD card website and downloaded a designated SDFormatter to fix the 16gb card, and thats what i'm using in it now. Thanks for the help!
knollster said:
Formatting the SD card worked! I went on the SD card website and downloaded a designated SDFormatter to fix the 16gb card, and thats what i'm using in it now. Thanks for the help!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No probs
help please
knollster said:
Whenever I try flashing a Windows Phone 7 rom to my HD2, i always get an error when it is about 3/4 of the way through flashing 4 partition. This is the error
An error has occurred
Read below for more information
Error Description: send d000ff partition data failed
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (1279)
Error Description: block send fail
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (962)
Error Description: flash write failed.
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (710)
I tried it with both MAGLDR v1.12 and 1.13 and switched SD cards multiple times. I tried switching computers as well as cords. I even tried flashing and older version of LEO70 that I am positive worked months ago. Any ideas? Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hello, I have the the same problem. I have a original rom from htc, Hard SPL 2.08, Magldr 1.13, and already experimented with two different SD cards, format always the sd card before trying to flash the phone.
but the result is always the same
someone can help?
FilSex said:
hello, I have the the same problem. I have a original rom from htc, Hard SPL 2.08, Magldr 1.13, and already experimented with two different SD cards, format always the sd card before trying to flash the phone.
but the result is always the same
someone can help?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello, is your system win vista? Make sure that you are in Admin mode.
knollster said:
Whenever I try flashing a Windows Phone 7 rom to my HD2, i always get an error when it is about 3/4 of the way through flashing 4 partition. This is the error
An error has occurred
Read below for more information
Error Description: send d000ff partition data failed
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (1279)
Error Description: block send fail
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (962)
Error Description: flash write failed.
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (710)
I tried it with both MAGLDR v1.12 and 1.13 and switched SD cards multiple times. I tried switching computers as well as cords. I even tried flashing and older version of LEO70 that I am positive worked months ago. Any ideas? Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Received my micro sd card through post today, so tried flashing a wp7.5 rom.
I get the same issue, and when the rom actually boots up it says sd card missing.
Now it's definately not the micro sd cards fault as before flashing the rom I formatted it, and it's absolutely new, class 4 4gb.
I've got the right version of radio and hspl..
What've I done wrong? I've tried flashing both HD2O© v2.00b5 WP7 TANGO 8773 and HD2 Pdaimatejam Rom Wp7.5 Tango 7.10.8773.98 v7.9
Can someone tell me what i'm doing wrong? Because I've had a fully functioning android 2.3.7 cm 7.2 rom on the device and that ran faultlessly.
Regards,
Edit: I did 10. Services, 4. UseLast24NAND
* 10. Services, 5. ClearSD MDR
and it's now working!
pethd2 said:
Hello, is your system win vista? Make sure that you are in Admin mode.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks for the fast reply. no my system is win 7, and I run as admin.
FilSex said:
thanks for the fast reply. no my system is win 7, and I run as admin.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi mate try doing this on MAGLDR, go to Services, then click option 4. UseLast24NAND press yes
Then click on option 10 again, Services then option 5. ClearSD MDR.
After doing both those steps go onto usbflasher and flash the rom you wish.
Worked a charm for me.
Regards,
Tenpin said:
Hi mate try doing this on MAGLDR, go to Services, then click option 4. UseLast24NAND press yes
Then click on option 10 again, Services then option 5. ClearSD MDR.
After doing both those steps go onto usbflasher and flash the rom you wish.
Worked a charm for me.
Regards,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and also check/reinstall WMDC if have any problems with usb drivers and recognizing HD2
Tenpin said:
Hi mate try doing this on MAGLDR, go to Services, then click option 4. UseLast24NAND press yes
Then click on option 10 again, Services then option 5. ClearSD MDR.
After doing both those steps go onto usbflasher and flash the rom you wish.
Worked a charm for me.
Regards,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
now works
thanks
FilSex said:
now works
thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol thought so, I think op's of rom threads should make it a little more clearer on the instructions part, as we've both realised it's so easy to miss the part out and **** up the entire installation.
Sent from my NexusHD2 using xda premium
Tenpin said:
lol thought so, I think op's of rom threads should make it a little more clearer on the instructions part, as we've both realised it's so easy to miss the part out and **** up the entire installation.
Sent from my NexusHD2 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well done (although those instructions are in the threads hehe))
FilSex said:
now works
thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thks Work for me also
Thanks!!!
Tenpin said:
Hi mate try doing this on MAGLDR, go to Services, then click option 4. UseLast24NAND press yes
Then click on option 10 again, Services then option 5. ClearSD MDR.
After doing both those steps go onto usbflasher and flash the rom you wish.
Worked a charm for me.
Regards,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you so much!!! I was going CRAZY!!!
Still not flashing
I tried everything above and it still refused to flash. I even started again from the beginning and it still didn't work. I formated the SD with SD formater, then I installed HSPL, I installed the Radio rom, wiped (task29), installed MAGLDR, went to 10. services, clicked option 4. UseLast24NAND press yes then clicked on option 10 again, Services then option 5. ClearSD MDR and finally, I flashed the Win 7.8 Rom.
Still got the message in the original post.
Please help!
Related
hi together,
i have many problems with my HD2, i have try to install a nand over MAGLDR v1.13 + DAF but when i try to install it with ROMUpdateUtility.exe it loads and i can click update, but then nothing happens only 0% nothing more.
I try it then with another tutorial that told me to install a radio first, but the same problem it loads 4% and told me that i have a wrong version or handy or somtehing.
Can someone Help me or told me hhow i can install it on another way?
you run daf.exe not the file you are running
heima77 said:
hi together,
i have many problems with my HD2, i have try to install a nand over MAGLDR v1.13 + DAF but when i try to install it with ROMUpdateUtility.exe it loads and i can click update, but then nothing happens only 0% nothing more.
I try it then with another tutorial that told me to install a radio first, but the same problem it loads 4% and told me that i have a wrong version or handy or somtehing.
Can someone Help me or told me hhow i can install it on another way?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You Need to start Over ..
I Would Task29 - then follow the directions here ..
Has everything you need ..
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=981811
heima77 said:
nothing happens only 0% nothing more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wrong / missing hspl. Check in bootloader.
Hspl4, 2.08.hspl
thank you i have update the hspl to 2.08 and installed MAGLDR and i have installed an old Android, i want a newer one but my problem ist, the most NAND versions have only and unpacked version of android and i dont understand how i can install them with the DAF.exe because there is no system.img or something or what do i wrong?
i want to install one of this 2 versions:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=908528
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=918899
or can you told me another good android 2.3 nand that i can easy install?
important for me is that there is no freeze and a good battery life and that i can install apps.
another question how can i use the micro sd card?
thanks a lot
Once in magldr u need to choose usb flasher and then connect ur fone with ur computer and click daf.exe it should do it on its own
Sent from my HTC HD2 Gingerbread using XDA App
thx, what im not understand, where must i put the folder: META-INF boot and system?
when the DAF.exe runes it says it cant load the readme.txt and when im click next there comes more erros i think it cant find the .img type file?
I think you are totally confused with files.better do some tutorial reading and start all afresh
Sent from my HTC HD2 Gingerbread using XDA App
im reading the tutorials but im not really understand why it dont work, now i have try the MDJs cya... but the same problem with the daf.exe here the error message:
An error has occurred
Read below for more information
Error Description: USB init failed
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (736)
Error Description: EnterBootloader missing
Info: .\RSPL\BootLoader.cpp (176)
what must i dooo?
The problem is that the roms u r flashing needs recovery mod..after flashing magloder u need to flash recoverymod 400mb file system via usb flasher and then format ur sd card according to to description in the rafpignas thread..once done wiyh all that copy paste the whole zip folder on sd card dont extract anything and then follow the steps on rafpignas thread to install via recovery
Sent from my HTC HD2 Gingerbread using XDA App
thank you now i found the right clockwork flash its very easy thank you very much.
post can be closed
Glad u found it ur welcome
Sent from my HTC HD2 Gingerbread using XDA App
arzin said:
The problem is that the roms u r flashing needs recovery mod..after flashing magloder u need to flash recoverymod 400mb file system via usb flasher and then format ur sd card according to to description in the rafpignas thread..once done wiyh all that copy paste the whole zip folder on sd card dont extract anything and then follow the steps on rafpignas thread to install via recovery
Sent from my HTC HD2 Gingerbread using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
im at this point now but im stuck on how to get the zip onto my sd card
i tried magldr mass storage but it wont copy over completely
someone please help
jonsson4000 said:
im at this point now but im stuck on how to get the zip onto my sd card
i tried magldr mass storage but it wont copy over completely
someone please help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've heard that Magdlr has some problems corrupting larger file transfers. Personally, I've never experienced it with v1.13. You can try using a microSD adapter and transfer it directly from your computer to the SDcard, from then on, transfer files in Android before you decide to flash.
h.nocturna said:
I've heard that Magdlr has some problems corrupting larger file transfers. Personally, I've never experienced it with v1.13. You can try using a microSD adapter and transfer it directly from your computer to the SDcard, from then on, transfer files in Android before you decide to flash.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thats what i usually do but since i started from square one and formatted my sd card i have nothing
jonsson4000 said:
thats what i usually do but since i started from square one and formatted my sd card i have nothing
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Flash CWM, then use the USB Mass Storage function from the partitions menu as another method.
h.nocturna said:
Flash CWM, then use the USB Mass Storage function from the partitions menu as another method.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
figured out how to do it through clockwork thanks for your help
missing hspl
Hi,
I had tried flashing WP 7 more than once, and until now i get this error
On My notebook :
An error has occurred
Read below for more information
Error Description: send d000ff partition data failed
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (1279)
Error Description:
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (956)
And on my HD2 unit, the messages are :
USB Flasher Mode
Wait USB...USB
Layout...PC=8, ASI=4, OASI=-1
Erase
[ASIZE] START" 365 END: FC0 SIZE: C5B
PARTITION LAYOUT NEW
0: 0219 02A9 10 25
1: 02A9 0319 10 25
2: 0319 0359 10 25
3: 0359 0365 10 25
4: 0365 0FC0 10 25
5: 0FC0 0FC8 10 25
6: 0FC8 0FCC 10 25
7: 0FCC 1000 10 25
Erase...
D S: 0 E: 219
D S: 1 E: 2A9
D S: 2 E: 319
D S: 3 E: 359
D S: 4 E: 365
D S: 5 E: FC0
D S: 6 E: FC8
D S: 7 E: FCC
Save EMBR...
Default OS is WPH NAND...
Flashing 0 partition...0 [219-2A9] M0 OK A23E 288
Flashing 0 partition...0 [2A9-319] M0 OK BC51 2F1
Empty 2 Partition...OK
Flashing 3 Partiotion...3 [359-365] M0 OK D840 361
Flashing 4 Partiotion...4 [365-FC0] M2
And it stoped..
I had search everywhere and i found some thread that write about the error, but when i follow the instruction it didn't work.
So what should i do ?
Thanks,
Ronald
did you tried with "use last 24 partition block" under services in MAGDLR ?
Just something what pops in my head
assangflexx said:
did you tried with "use last 24 partition block" under services in MAGDLR ?
Just something what pops in my head
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup, Including that one & didn't work
Also i Had tried Format the SD from my notebook but still, it didn't work
Additional information : I Use 4Gb MicroSd
Thanks,
Ronald
I'd try with another SD card before anything else. Or if you can try installing without an SD card. I am not sure that this is possible with mango though, but older versions could be installed without an SD card. Just to see if it is causing the problem.
ikovac said:
I'd try with another SD card before anything else. Or if you can try installing without an SD card. I am not sure that this is possible with mango though, but older versions could be installed without an SD card. Just to see if it is causing the problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This error happened when i use HD2O but didn't happen when i use XBMOD-Yuki ROM
What should i do ?
thanks
ronald_delgeano said:
This error happened when i use HD2O but didn't happen when i use XBMOD-Yuki ROM
What should i do ?
thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you try 'clear SD MBR' in Magldr?
mementototem said:
Did you try 'clear SD MBR' in Magldr?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did that too and still got the error
thanks for replying,
Ronald
I found this thread interesting, for various reason, still a open question and google put it in the front line.
when this error apears in mi HTC HD2 was for a bad flash when i tried the windows mobile 7.8 (problems with the drivers on my windows 7 desktop or garbage in the nand i dont know).
so i tried reflash and always with maldrg 1.13 and a ROM, file and fail.
do the 24mB nand trick and clean SD card and still failing
do a task29 clean and still failing.
change SD and still the failing
and always maldrg put me the warning htc hd2 fatal hit 3 when i do the hardware reset
so my problems was solved with a SD ROM loading trick (load the ROM via microSDcard) with a important warning, do that cleaning ROM with the STOCK MANUFACTURING ROM ( if your cellphone was a telstra reload the telstra ROM with the SD trick, if your phone was vodafone reload the vodafone ROM with te SD trick, if your phone was a T.mobile reload the tmobile ROM with the SD trick etc.....) why, well it will clean all the NAND, including HSPL and the Radio version, and return to windows mobile 6.5 again. to restart and reload windows 7.8 mobile again and it works great.
so problem solved
Hello everyone,
i have a problem setting up wp7/nativesd android dual booting on my HD2.
I've read all the guides and troubleshots but I don't seem to bypass my errors im getting.
So let me explain things, I own HD2 with 2.08 hspl and 2.15 radio.
My procedure:
A.)
1. Task29
2. install MAGLDR 1.13
3. (optional) repartition MAGLDR to system 300mb/45mb cache
B.)
1. (optional) services/uselast24nand and clearSD mbr
2. (optional) AD Recovery - working!
3. USB Flasher mode
4. Start DWI.exe (tried some: .., Pdaimatejam Rom Wp7.8 OS 7.10.8835.35 v8.5, DFT Ultrafruit, H2O2)
Result: Procedure B/4 always fails with an error while flashing partition 4:
An error has occurred
Read below for more information
Error Description: send d000ff partition data failed
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (1279)
Error Description: block send fail
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (962)
Error Description: flash write failed.
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (710)
I get that error whatever I do. I repeat the steps from my Procedure A/1 and onwards with different (option) points written above with no success.
Can anyone please help me? I am desperate, seriously, already changed my HD2's motherboard and upper board for nothing - same problem persists.
Thank you for trying and reading!
PS.:
I've tried the above procedure with 3 SD cards, Samsung 16gb class 6, Transcend 32gb class 4, Kingston 8gb class 10. No luck
did you forget use last24nand in magldr? this not optional... this is important... be sure you confirm this step with green buttom
also check did you have activesync (XP) or WMDC (Win7/8, Vista) installed
also did you try flash WP without repartition of NAND? maybe this is problem
I did try it several times. As I said, those (optionals) are just the points where I tried to change whole procedure so I would make it work but I didn't. I DID try that 24mb nand 90% of the time. Currently I reflashed stock wm6.5 back and starting from begining. Will report to you.
It does work now! I think I did a mistake after I installed HSPL i always did task29 thank you for your help guys!
Task29 before instaling wp7 is not smart hehe
USB Mass Storage is not available!!!!!!!!!!
what?????:crying:
The problem of the ROM?
Will be okay? Help?
Memory cards are not shown!!!
Unable to transfer files between phone and computer
H9MZEH said:
USB Mass Storage is not available!!!!!!!!!!
what?????:crying:
The problem of the ROM?
Will be okay? Help?
Memory cards are not shown!!!
Unable to transfer files between phone and computer
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have u tried reflashing the rom......and did you do a clean install or just a wipe and flash.....????
I did a complete wipe using task29 in the toolkit and the reinstalled magldr and recovery and the recreated the ext4 partition on the memory card and now i am using nand with data on ext...mass storage is working fine for me:good:.....Pictures attached....
hassam_tariq2003 said:
Have u tried reflashing the rom......and did you do a clean install or just a wipe and flash.....????
I did a complete wipe using task29 in the toolkit and the reinstalled magldr and recovery and the recreated the ext4 partition on the memory card and now i am using nand with data on ext...mass storage is working fine for me:good:.....Pictures attached....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hi
Beginning with
Radio Leo 2.15.50.14
HSPL4
Task29
cLK_1.5.0.1_With.Recovery!!!!!!!!!!
1024mb ext4!!!!!!!
memory 8G Class4
installed Rom!!!
Nand512
mass storage and GPS And bluethooth is Not working!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This should Work
H9MZEH said:
hi
Beginning with
Radio Leo 2.15.50.14
HSPL4
Task29
cLK_1.5.0.1_With.Recovery!!!!!!!!!!
1024mb ext4!!!!!!!
memory 8G Class4
installed Rom!!!
Nand512
mass storage and GPS And bluethooth is Not working!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Gps is not working for me either and bluetooth is also buggy as the rom is in alpha version.....
in your case i would recommend flashing a different radio and using magldr.....i am using 2.12.50.02 and it works like a charm and gives the best battery time........also try installing the as native sd or data on ext........i am using data on ext on a samsung 8gb class 4 memorycard.....
the link to download the radio.....Its in 7zip format : http://www.mediafire.com/?k542ax3eo3q5u22
THAT SHOULD DO IT...Lets hope IT works...:highfive:
hassam_tariq2003 said:
Gps is not working for me either and bluetooth is also buggy as the rom is in alpha version.....
in your case i would recommend flashing a different radio and using magldr.....i am using 2.12.50.02 and it works like a charm and gives the best battery time........also try installing the as native sd or data on ext........i am using data on ext on a samsung 8gb class 4 memorycard.....
the link to download the radio.....Its in 7zip format : http://www.mediafire.com/?k542ax3eo3q5u22
THAT SHOULD DO IT...Lets hope IT works...:highfive:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you brother:victory:
Very kind of you to me
H9MZEH said:
Thank you brother:victory:
Very kind of you to me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No Problem Brother...Anytime....
nand with data on EXT
At the end of the Aroma installer it suggests that if we installed nand with data on EXT we should "flash_sboot_v2" what is that and what does it do?
Also i just installed the Rom using cLK with data on EXT (size 1024) , system 400mb, and it worked only problem is that it it keeps saying "com.android.phone" has stopped working what could be causing this?
lastly which i just noticed is that it was already on the home screen like i had finished the whole installation process and filled my details in. would re-flashing it solve all these problems, is there something i should do differently?
thanks
Hey guys! I was trying to flash a wp 7.8 rom to have it on dual boot with android...
I tried 4 roms, and they all gives me this error:
Error Description: send d000ff partition data failed
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (1279)
Error Description: block send fail
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (962)
Error Description: Block is after end.
Info: .\RSPL\RSPL.cpp (704)
someone said I had to repartition magldr on 350 mb / 5mb, to use last24mb, sd mbr, I tried everything (except install after w6.5, I hope that isn't that the problem....)
so, anyone solved this?
thanks in advance
SOLVED, my luck, anyone who gets this error, pull out the sd card while flashing
throcker said:
SOLVED, my luck, anyone who gets this error, pull out the sd card while flashing
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
first at all: way repartition magldr 350 mb??????????????
read install tutorial from my signature how to install WP7 right
SDcard MUST be in device... SDcard is phone memory in WP7 and during setup phone create own system on SDcard....
dxdy said:
first at all: way repartition magldr 350 mb??????????????
read install tutorial from my signature how to install WP7 right
SDcard MUST be in device... SDcard is phone memory in WP7 and during setup phone create own system on SDcard....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know about repartition, it didn't make sense for me too, but I tried it instead...
well, I wrongly left out the sd card while flashing (not while setup wp) and flash finished fine...two times!...
ops....ok, this sd trick worked for first time, now even with sd out it gives me the same error....don't know what to do, anyone is having problems with windows8?
throcker said:
ops....ok, this sd trick worked for first time, now even with sd out it gives me the same error....don't know what to do, anyone is having problems with windows8?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i flashed hundreds time WP7.x ROM's and never have problems....
possible problems:
- drivers
- USB cable or USB port
- wrong installation procedure, wrong steps...
- faulty HD2 device
once when WP7 ROM installed, after that no need to repeat procedure from beginning... is enough to run only flashing from number 5 in magldr... all is in my install tutorial...
dont forget to not make partition (300 mb/5mb) this is only for Android flashing.... not WP7... this must be deleted (with Task29)
dxdy said:
i flashed hundreds time WP7.x ROM's and never have problems....
possible problems:
- drivers
- USB cable or USB port
- wrong installation procedure, wrong steps...
- faulty HD2 device
once when WP7 ROM installed, after that no need to repeat procedure from beginning... is enough to run only flashing from number 5 in magldr... all is in my install tutorial...
dont forget to not make partition (300 mb/5mb) this is only for Android flashing.... not WP7... this must be deleted (with Task29)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thank you for your answer, yes I'm not partitioning memory (it was a stupid thing)
is strange because last week I installed wp without problems, so, my phone is working fine
drivers are set up correctly (or my pc would not recognize correctly the device), I tried different usb ports...nothing...
I'm still trying...I use last24nand also, but isn't useful