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I was looking for a couple of threads that I had recently bookmarked to go back to later on only to find that they weren't bookmarked anymore. I spent almost an hour searching for them only to find the one specific thread in the trash. No warning or reason was given. Why was this done? I can understand if it's a thread with only a single post or perhaps even one that has become outdated (like a Cupcake release date thread) but why a thread that has 4 pages of information for a topic that doesn't have any reference for it already? Isn't this going to just create more new threads? More e-mails? More questions? Isn't this defeating the purpose of posting a new thread about a topic that hasn't been posted or stickied, if it is just going to be deleted?
If you look in the trash you will find SEVERAL Dream threads. In fact... just on the first page HALF (TEN out of TWENTY) are from the Dream thread! So just to clearify... of the dozens of different threads for different phones half of all trash is for the G1??? Isn't the trash supposed to be for SPAM?
How are these spam (just from the first page)???
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=525564
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=524956
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=519591
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=525034
There are a few more of course but I can understand because most of the questions have been answerered and it would be faster and easier if these people used the search feature. But some haven't been. (example)
Instead of deleting the threads... merge them. But of course you get stuck with a 500+ page thread that MOST people will not read all the way through to see if the question they are about to ask has been asked/answered already. Which is of course why they post a new thread but guess what? It gets deleted and so another thread gets posted. It's never ending and I realize that this must be hard work for the mods.
So what to do?
I propose that instead of deleting these threads without reason or warning, to PM the original poster of the thread to ask of the significance of it and to provide a legitimate reason and purpose for it. Otherwise give warning or notice of the possible deletion. Of course this does not exempt the threads that are posting warez, copyright infringements and other obvious violations of memberships.
This is only my opinion and I hope that I have made an interesting point or two about this matter.
Look at the Sticky "Tough Love Moderation Alert". Basically the admins will lock/delete threads they think duplicate or off topic. I can't say as I agree with their method (no explanation) but there is a need to keep the threads under control. The development forum is the worst of the problem area but all the Dream forums have some abusers.
On the other hand it is leading to silly thread titles "[ONLY] something [ONLY]" (which is silly since people who would have posted off topic before still will) and confusion as well as "What happened to my last post" threads. Time will tell if their methods achieve their goal.
JanetPanic said:
Look at the Sticky "Tough Love Moderation Alert". Basically the admins will lock/delete threads they think duplicate or off topic. I can't say as I agree with their method (no explanation) but there is a need to keep the threads under control. The development forum is the worst of the problem area but all the Dream forums have some abusers.
On the other hand it is leading to silly thread titles "[ONLY] something [ONLY]" (which is silly since people who would have posted off topic before still will) and confusion as well as "What happened to my last post" threads. Time will tell if their methods achieve their goal.
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Yeah... okay. I agree that some of the most annoying problems with the dream thread is that people do post in the ROM Development thread. But is deleting so much easier then moving to the "Dream" thread? If so, does it out weight the inconvenience of the possiblity of the same question being reposted because it was unable to be found by the search feature?
Say this post gets deleted... and it likely will be... and someone else notices the same issue... and they search to see if this has been posted. Will they find it? No. Because hardly anyone looks in the trash. So what do they do? They post it as a new thread. So what happens? A mod goes in and deletes that post. And it repeats over and over again until the mods stop deleting the posts. Then what? Nothing. The post stays and maybe even grows. Is it really a bother that a thread is over a month old and hasn't had any recent posts? Does it really bother anyone? Of course not! They just ignore it, right? So why go through all the trouble to delete it? Some of the threads in the trash are still useful and there is absolutely no harm in keeping it in the proper catagories (ie Dream, Applications, Themes, etc).
Any mod that simply deletes a useful and recently commented thread because it was mistakenly posted under the wrong catgory instead of simply moving it, is just lazy in my own personal opinion and is doing more harm then good. Again... just my opinion.
Binary100100 said:
Say this post gets deleted... and it likely will be... and someone else notices the same issue... and they search to see if this has been posted. Will they find it? No. Because hardly anyone looks in the trash. So what do they do? They post it as a new thread. So what happens? A mod goes in and deletes that post. And it repeats over and over again until the mods stop deleting the posts. Then what? Nothing. The post stays and maybe even grows.
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That doesn't indicate that what the mods are doing is necessarily wrong, it means that new members continue to disregard the rules (posting already answered questions, posting in wrong forum, etc).
That said, I think the mods need to reevaluate how and when they do thread merges. The form of discussion in forums like these tend to be "conversation" centric. However, the threads are presented in a flat format (by default). That means that merging two threads of identical or similar topics will cause their conversations to intermix, with disastrous results. People already have piss-poor reading skills as it is.
What do you expect the moderators to do? We didn't give them a choice. The Dream forums are out of control and it would take the 3 or 4 moderators for these forums 8 hours a day not being paid to police it. You want someone to blame? Blame your fellow XDA members because there are only 2 solutions for this problem:
Get more moderators to baby sit the forums or increase the quality of posting within the Dream forums. The later is what we need here and what the moderators are hoping for.
Edit: And honestly, I think this is the best method. Do we have the potential for losing good information? Yes. This is how you teach the multitudes of Dream posters that there are consequences for being ignorant. Being stupid is not an excuse.
It is pretty annoying how the Dream thread has exploded and that the same questions just keep on cropping up. When I reply I do try to either re-direct them to my signature (which has the basic links to Dude's ROM, SPL, Apps2SD, Radio etc), teach them how to search with the actual result or just point them to the right direction.
However with 500+ pages or whatever, it can become a chore for newbies to read though, even if 70% of the info is in the first page.
I did recommend to the mods that the Dream section needs cleaning up, with a dedicated sub forum purely for the established (or popular) cooked ROMs. So underneath the Dream Dev sub-forum is another just for JF, Dude, Cyanogen, Haykuro etc. That should remove quite a lot of traffic and usual questions then from what is supposed to be a general development thread for other matters.
Then I would suggest a much more organised and up to date FAQ in such a sub-forum which covers all of the same questions that get asked daily. Any such questions that get asked in any of the ROM forums would then be re-directed to the FAQ.
Most of us I'm sure have come from large forums (lik-sang, avsfoums, etc) and know how to search, read etc but many newer members don't, be it due to lack of effort etc. However I'm sure there are many genuine new members who are willing to learn that only need a nudge in the right direction. Simply blocking them off by trashing, linking them only to the search page etc isn't helpful and won't generate a positive community.
I would put myself forward to help moderate the Dream section but I know that zero mod positions are available at the moment, but I do agree with the OP that trashing isn't always the solution.
NeoBlade said:
linking them only to the search page etc isn't helpful and won't generate a positive community.
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The main problem is that for the veterans who have been here since Sept/Oct 2008, everything more or less makes sense because they have seen it evolve to its current state. It's a lot like a guy who lives in a very very messy room who can still find the book buried under a pile of empty ramen cups and dirty laundry. Thus its easy to say "use the search!" in response to any newbie query. That said, from the first-timer newbie perspective, there are a few problems: 1) A lot of information crammed into two poorly organized subforums. 2) A lot of information is outdated and is superseded or contradicts newer information. 3) Some of the sticky threads have very poorly written or maintained first posts.
Sticky threads are not a very good way to store information for general consumption, unless the original poster is a very good communicator and also vigilantly updates the first post with concise information from the entire thread, no matter how long it is. Of the former sticky posts, few actually meet that standard. The ideal format for information conveyance is wiki, but then there is the disconnection between the wiki and active development. In other words, people don't like to move back and forth between the wiki and the forum.
I know what you mean jashu, I love my "organised mess" at home ^_^
It does take effort alright in keeping threads on topic and up to date, I remember when administrating the TokyoToys forum (I since had to close it, joint decision by myself and the owner) and also organising events for fans and people alike to meet up and have fun, took effort and more often enough without any recognition as well which can get discouraging.
Certainly if the OP kept his or her first post updated often enough with information it will keep questions down to a minimum however I still approve of a well made FAQ which is stickied. It then becomes a focal point as any FAQ should. I'm actually in the middle of writing one myself and once its done and the people concerned are happy with it, I would be happy to post it here too.
Ideally a wiki would be best because its user editable however I had a look at the XDA wiki and it does need a bit of TLC.
I will qualify my statement in that I come from the standpoint as an administrator in a prominent Linux forum that gets more posts in an hour in than the Dream forums get in a day. I firmly believe that draconian administration is not the answer and makes the forum far less pleasant to use. I think of administration as keeping things civil and posts in the right forum more than controlling creation of threads. Forcing the organization into a few mammoth threads is not any better than letting users create new threads without rules.
The developers forum is a bit of a mess and completely left to its own it would be worse than it is. The Development forum is not really about development anymore though. It more of a "custom ROM" forum. It is rare that I see an actual post on development on the android platform. Since the primary topic on the forum is custom ROMs the support questions for said ROMs get put in the development forum and generates a mess. Creating a ROM forum would just shift the mess, so I am not sure that would be better.
I think eventually the newbies who are flooding the forum with threads that could be answered by searching will either go away or learn to search. The current choice of administration is not educating the newbies though, it is just forcing them to learn. Regardless of how any of us users feel about the subject though the administrators have made their choice on how to deal with the Dream sub-forums. We are just along for the ride.
The thought that scares me more than any other is that the flood of newbies up to this stage could be just the tip of the iceburg. XDA-Dev before the last year or so was a forum for a fairly small group of people who generally know how to deal with their own problems. Lately the number of users with limited technical ability and desire have been increasing. This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change. Linux forums have a reputation for rude users, this is largely due to the veterans being unforgiving to repeated questions. Harsh but it does work over time.
JanetPanic said:
The thought that scares me more than any other is that the flood of newbies up to this stage could be just the tip of the iceburg. XDA-Dev before the last year or so was a forum for a fairly small group of people who generally know how to deal with their own problems. Lately the number of users with limited technical ability and desire have been increasing. This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change.
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This and the fact that it's brand spanking new. Give it time and the kids will find something new to play with and move on while the people that give a rats arse (us) will be left behind. I've seen it time and time again on car forums. This isn't any different. The first 6 months is bliss. The following 1-2 years is absolute hell. Then comes the volume drop off and the true development. I've all for tough love but it's not like the tide is ever going to stop. We are just going to have to wait it out.
There's always methods in dealing with issues and I do agree that its more of a ROM section than Development thesedays... Hence in my opinion it would be better off having a ROM section for such people to post on, which will clear up for people actually developling or helping to improve the android platform - Most notibly the Bluetooth OBEX support.
This isn't the fastest forum I've seen or been involved in in terms of volumes of posts, however it is getting to the point where re-structuring and possibly more moderators are needed to help ease the burden. When a large number of people register and start being active, it is often the best time to set an example and indeed set and establish a community where people help people - Be it to simple things as pointing them to the right direction to much more techinical issues.
Without the ethos to help each other, where would open source be?
Granted I know nothing about Linux myself and couldn't code to save my life but I do enjoy the technical discussions that take place. A lot of this is lost with the usual questions that get asked, hence the need for a more up to date FAQ. Tough love is needed but I believe with the right organisation, it shouldn't have to be the only answer.
uberingram said:
This and the fact that it's brand spanking new. Give it time and the kids will find something new to play with and move on while the people that give a rats arse (us) will be left behind. I've seen it time and time again on car forums. This isn't any different. The first 6 months is bliss. The following 1-2 years is absolute hell. Then comes the volume drop off and the true development. I've all for tough love but it's not like the tide is ever going to stop. We are just going to have to wait it out.
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the G1 is the new sidekick. and the sidekick was such a fad and trend for kids to use as a phone. the hip hop and celebrity community did well in terms of marketing the sidekick to the mainstream public as being a "your not cool if you don't have one of these" items. also the emo/scene kids are all about what the "in" things and fads are, so that highly popularized the sidekick as well.
and now since the G1 came out, most of the people that got a sidekick for those particular reasons mentioned above, are now "upgrading" to the next newer cooler big thing.... the G1.
young people love to follow trends, fads, and what's cool at the moment.
right now, the G1 is just that.
it's a double edge for Android and the G1. the popularity is one of the key things needed to make Android and the G1 a success. but with popularity comes a lot riff raff and criticism that is not welcomed so well. but i digress lol
i just hope the sidekick comes out with a touchscreen version or something, so the kids have something new shiny to play with haha
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK? I moved to the G1 after my Nokia N95. Got impatient waiting for the N97 so made the jump and thanks to the incomplete stock OS, I was tempted to move back to my N95 until JF released his research, Haykuro and Dude. Now it feels more complete with only a few things missing.
Back on topic though, the place isn't as bad as it could be but since this is more a development forum to begin with and not a social based one, just a few tweaks here and there would help newbies a little.
NeoBlade said:
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK? I moved to the G1 after my Nokia N95. Got impatient waiting for the N97 so made the jump and thanks to the incomplete stock OS, I was tempted to move back to my N95 until JF released his research, Haykuro and Dude. Now it feels more complete with only a few things missing.
Back on topic though, the place isn't as bad as it could be but since this is more a development forum to begin with and not a social based one, just a few tweaks here and there would help newbies a little.
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ohhh i have an idea...
like when you sign up you pick the phone and platform you use then instantly redirects the new member to a FAQ or pertinent threads associated to their liking of phone and platform and at the same time directly email them a link to those FAQ and whatnot.
NeoBlade said:
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK?.
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Yeah, it's just how mrcrs described it. The Sidekick became quite the fashion accessory model when celebrities started picking them up. They are pictured all over the tabloids and mentioned a lot of times in up-start musician's songs. I doubt very much that it would have panned out this way if T-Mobile released the SideKick 3G before the G1 but then again, T-Mobile needed a victory and a halo phone really fast.
That would take a fair amount of modification to the forum files to do (I've done my fair share of phpBB, phpBB Plus, IPB etc) and also is on the pretence that every single mobile has a suitable FAQ to begin with.
And easier way and modification to the forum could be to send a general stock welcoming PM along with a reminder to search and any additional helpful links within. That is, if XDA wants to go down that route.
NeoBlade said:
That would take a fair amount of modification to the forum files to do (I've done my fair share of phpBB, phpBB Plus, IPB etc) and also is on the pretence that every single mobile has a suitable FAQ to begin with.
And easier way and modification to the forum could be to send a general stock welcoming PM along with a reminder to search and any additional helpful links within. That is, if XDA wants to go down that route.
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whenever i join forums and in my inbox i get a message automatically, which is usually from the forum itself, i usually disregard it because all it is a "welcome to xyz forums... yada yada yada... enjoy your time here"
i usually don't open and read it, delete it then... go wreck havoc on finding out the information i want to know or read about. but that's just me
JanetPanic said:
This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change.
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To get a glimpse of where Dream/Magic forum is headed, just look at the xda Winmo forums. "Development" in this case basically just means rom customization. It's already pretty much at that state here too. Of course if Android fulfills its promise of being a mainstream smartphone OS, there will be many more newbies here than there ever were on the Winmo forums (you don't see many kids rocking Touch Diamonds).
Linux forums have a reputation for rude users, this is largely due to the veterans being unforgiving to repeated questions. Harsh but it does work over time.
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IMO there's nothing wrong with being a bit curt, especially in the "development" forum. This isn't an interactive tutorial, a hand-holding journey. Too many people seem to get the idea that the unsupported hacks enabled by rooting can be generalized and simplified for mass-market consumption. That kind of thinking is faulty and the resulting bad publicity may jeopardize the Android hacking community on the whole.
The problem is that in most cases, being rude only keeps away users who had initial reservations and cautions to rooting-- precisely the kind of user who actually might take the time to indepedently and/or responsibly learn how to do things properly.
jashsu said:
To get a glimpse of where Dream/Magic forum is headed, just look at the xda Winmo forums. "Development" in this case basically just means rom customization. It's already pretty much at that state here too. Of course if Android fulfills its promise of being a mainstream smartphone OS, there will be many more newbies here than there ever were on the Winmo forums (you don't see many kids rocking Touch Diamonds).
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I have been here since 2005 with the Blue Angel (then the Wizard, Jam, Magician, and the Artemis). Eventually XDA started dedicating a subforum to ROMs with the general development thread up top for WinMo development. The Dream right now just has the one combined forum. Another difference is that the ROM threads in Dream seem to grow faster than I remember on the WinMo threads. I am not sure what the difference is, maybe that usually there are a couple debug threads that die out which in the Dream forum is discouraged. Regardless the rapid posting makes it harder to keep up with more than one ROM.
jashsu said:
IMO there's nothing wrong with being a bit curt, especially in the "development" forum. This isn't an interactive tutorial, a hand-holding journey. Too many people seem to get the idea that the unsupported hacks enabled by rooting can be generalized and simplified for mass-market consumption. That kind of thinking is faulty and the resulting bad publicity may jeopardize the Android hacking community on the whole.
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I agree, well put.
jashsu said:
The problem is that in most cases, being rude only keeps away users who had initial reservations and cautions to rooting-- precisely the kind of user who actually might take the time to indepedently and/or responsibly learn how to do things properly.
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Good point as well.
Hi!
I was just wondering if anyone would like to point me and others in the direction of some other useful threads to check out that relate to our Hero. (Not Superman, he's still GSM only)
For example, I've wondered if any subforums other than Hero CDMA in the HTC Hero Forums here on XDA have any useful info or downloads that are relevant. Also, I've been wondering the same thing about the general Android forums here on XDA.
I keep a CDMA Hero bookmark button on top of Firefox, but does anyone have any good suggestions of other sites or subforums/threads that I can add along with it and check about as much as I check Facebook, Gmail and Plentyoffish? Hahaha
The thread list is up at the top.. Under search..
Have fun with it..
http://geekfor.me/
http://forum.androidcentral.com/htc-hero/
http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=519
these are my bookmarks on this install, i have a ton more on my other computer but can't remember them now, these are the ones i've used this week
There is plenty to read and learn both in the G2 section, and in the wider general Android forum. I highly recommend checking it out.
Haha, yeah, thanks. I was about to say thanks, ****, but I saw you're joking so it's cool.
Before anyone tries to use the old "google it" line on me, let me say, yeah - I've googled it before. I know several good sites to check out other than XDA, like android central and so on.
I'm just wondering what other people check religiously like I check this subforum.
I'm also mainly curious to know if there's even any point reading through stuff on in the GSM Hero subforums. It's so lame that we only get one lousy little subforum! There's bound to be a wealth of knowledge, downloads, etc. in the GSM subforums, but I just don't want to waste my time or learn harmful/useless things.
By the way, if I could soapbox for a minute (and this has nothing to do with the post above this one, lol), I've noticed a lot of rudeness in the CDMA Hero posts, and it's a shame.
Of course it gets annoying to see people begging for help with common issues that have been addressed a hundred times. No one denies that, but it's just something that will always be there. Unless there is a quiz on the basics of flashing ROMs and using a device before one can make posts on here, it's always going to happen. Getting annoyed with this is understandable.
However, I've noticed other types of threads posted, which while a bit annoying because we've seen the same thing over and over, really don't deserve the rudeness that they get. Who cares if there are 50 threads on here where people ask what other people prefer to use as a daily ROM, or what their home screen looks like? Does anyone lose any money or time over this? Is there a thread limit here? No. This is a community of people who have the same device and who all want to get the best out of their devices. If a thread is pointless, it will be buried quickly when no one posts in it, and the more popular threads will remain on the first page. A pointless thread will continue to stay on the first page though, when someone takes the time to make a rude post!
Anyway, sorry to rant on and on about it, but it would really be great to see the CDMA Hero community work together a little better and be a little less anal. This is probably the number one site that people with our phone check to learn more and update and generally get more out of the Hero experience. Instead of scaring people away from making new threads and posts to ask people what they like and why they like it, we should really try to encourage this. The more we all come together and explore things together (regardless of how repetitive and in some opinions possibly even trivial some of these things may be), the more we grow as a whole, and I am sure that this kind of atmosphere will encourage more people to make more and more interesting contributions.
The beauty of Android and of XDA Developers Forums is that they were both created with the goal of people coming together and developing, creating, tweaking, designing, and discussing. Before the Hero, I was permanently glued to a Dell Axim x51v, and between these forums and HTCGeeks, and a friendly and open community of users and developers, we've taken the device FAR beyond anything that anyone could have dreamed it could get to when it was made, what, 5 years ago?
thedudejdog said:
http://geekfor.me/
http://forum.androidcentral.com/htc-hero/
http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=519
these are my bookmarks on this install, i have a ton more on my other computer but can't remember them now, these are the ones i've used this week
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Thanks a lot, I'm going to add these into a "Hero" bookmarks folder!
tejasrichard said:
There is plenty to read and learn both in the G2 section, and in the wider general Android forum. I highly recommend checking it out.
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Thanks for the info!
GSM Hero Themes/Apps Thread
Curious - is this thread useful at all to us, or will any themes and apps be useless since we're CDMA?
I already know (I think) that GSM themes won't work because they're probably designed for GSM ROMs, so all kinds of things won't be compatible. (Like trying to use a 1.5 theme on a 2.1 ROM)
Are things like widgets and clocks ROM and/or device specific? I'm on a widget hunt.
I'm new to using Helix and I'd love to find some widgets that compare to the awesome Sense widgets, particularly Sense's beautiful Messaging, Mail, Music, and Friendstream widgets.
raynda said:
However, I've noticed other types of threads posted, which while a bit annoying because we've seen the same thing over and over, really don't deserve the rudeness that they get. Who cares if there are 50 threads on here where people ask what other people prefer to use as a daily ROM, or what their home screen looks like? Does anyone lose any money or time over this? Is there a thread limit here? No. This is a community of people who have the same device and who all want to get the best out of their devices. If a thread is pointless, it will be buried quickly when no one posts in it, and the more popular threads will remain on the first page. A pointless thread will continue to stay on the first page though, when someone takes the time to make a rude post!
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It's not that we care that there is a hundred threads that say the same thing, its that if there are 100 threads of the same topic, it in effect, makes our forum usage a terror, because navigation is almost doomed from the beginning in that situation..
And it is not going to be something that is always there, because with mods actually modding these threads on other forums that I frequent daily, *they are virtually non-existant...
For the "noob" users, they cannot find these answers efficiently because the forum is blasted with the same thing over and over... With different answers in each thread..
The only way to make the "noob's" life easier, is to format the forum in a efficient and knowledge ready way...
Which by letting noob's overrun your forum, is not possible... We are hateful because you are feeding an endless chain of questions, when it could be handled in a much more effective way, if it wasn't for people flaming people who are actually looking out for the forum....
raynda said:
By the way, if I could soapbox for a minute (and this has nothing to do with the post above this one, lol), I've noticed a lot of rudeness in the CDMA Hero posts, and it's a shame.
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Yeah, it's kinda bad here... It's like that on pretty much any technical forum, but things are really over the top on this one.
It's to the point now that when I do have a question I feel like I need to devote one short paragraph to asking the question, then tack on 5 more long paragraphs explaining that I already DID search, came up empty handed, searched again, explain which keywords I searched on, etc....
Surely there's a happy medium that can be found...
azyouthinkeyeiz said:
We are hateful because you are feeding an endless chain of questions, when it could be handled in a much more effective way, if it wasn't for people flaming people who are actually looking out for the forum....
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Hey, I'm not trying to come off defensive to you in this reply because I appreciate your posts on here, but are you saying that I personally am feeding an endless chain of questions?
Also, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that the problem may be in people looking out for the forum too much, when the point of this whole XDA Developers Forum thing should be to look out for the fellow user. Like I said though, I may be wrong.
And I don't mean that it's perfectly cool to have hundreds of the same thread in here, I agree that is useless clutter. I just think that some threads that get posted do have potential for the good of the community, but they get squashed quickly by posters with bad attitudes, and then the OP in that thread and others who have the same thoughts and questions become too embarrassed or insulted/offended to post again. When that happens, someone who may have eventually provided something amazing to the community will either never get to that point, or will get there and just won't post it here because of the bad experience.
I'm sure that there are all kinds of amazing things that people have tweaked, developed, designed, and created, but they're never going to be publicly released for one reason or another. Let's not let the reason be that they were treated like they were stupid when they were finding their way on these forums.
subliminalurge said:
Yeah, it's kinda bad here... It's like that on pretty much any technical forum, but things are really over the top on this one.
It's to the point now that when I do have a question I feel like I need to devote one short paragraph to asking the question, then tack on 5 more long paragraphs explaining that I already DID search, came up empty handed, searched again, explain which keywords I searched on, etc....
Surely there's a happy medium that can be found...
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That's exactly what I'm talking about. People will get to the point that they just won't post anything when they have an idea or a question because there's no happy medium. And the worse it gets, the less progress we make as a whole.
raynda said:
Hey, I'm not trying to come off defensive to you in this reply because I appreciate your posts on here, but are you saying that I personally am feeding an endless chain of questions?
Also, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that the problem may be in people looking out for the forum too much, when the point of this whole XDA Developers Forum thing should be to look out for the fellow user. Like I said though, I may be wrong.
And I don't mean that it's perfectly cool to have hundreds of the same thread in here, I agree that is useless clutter. I just think that some threads that get posted do have potential for the good of the community, but they get squashed quickly by posters with bad attitudes, and then the OP in that thread and others who have the same thoughts and questions become too embarrassed or insulted/offended to post again. When that happens, someone who may have eventually provided something amazing to the community will either never get to that point, or will get there and just won't post it here because of the bad experience.
I'm sure that there are all kinds of amazing things that people have tweaked, developed, designed, and created, but they're never going to be publicly released for one reason or another. Let's not let the reason be that they were treated like they were stupid when they were finding their way on these forums.
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No not you specifically. Sorry that was an analogous "you".. And I totally agree.. But 95% of the ones get shot down immediately, deserve it, even though you might not think so, from the people with answers, you will know almost immediately if it merits further investigation. Wishful-thinking and impossible sometimes walk a very narrow line. Developers and end-users have entirely different mindsets.. That's never going to change.. But the end-users should have a more thorough understanding of what it is we do for you and *developers should be more compassionate "for the most part (there are alot of caring devs)..
Where this sub-forum was destroyed, was giving it sub-forum status and not its own separate forum, like every other HTC device.. Then, we would get a development sub-forum, themes forum, etc. The development is different than the GSM Hero, so why doesn't it deserve its own?
You will see, that with honest concerns and problems, I will go to the end of the world for you...
But, if you want something from me, (effort to help you) you must at least show some sort of effort to solve the issue, besides "NEW TOPIC< IS MY PHONE BRICKED?"
azyouthinkeyeiz said:
You will see, that with honest concerns and problems, I will go to the end of the world for you...
But, if you want something from me, (effort to help you) you must at least show some sort of effort to solve the issue, besides "NEW TOPIC< IS MY PHONE BRICKED?"
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I can definitely see your point.
But this is where the happy medium needs to be found. I know I'm the exception rather than the rule on this point, but by the time I post asking for help, it's safe to say I've spent at least one day each both trying to figure out an answer on my own (and I'm fairly capable), and searching this forum, other forums, and google to see if anyone else has had and solved the same problem.
That's effort that isn't seen, but it's extremely frustrating to feel obligated to explain it all in detail in exchange for the privilege of asking a question.
Now, don't take this post the wrong way. There's absolutely nothing wrong with expecting people to do a little digging on their own before they come crying for help.
I just think this forum (as a whole, not you specifically) has gone a bit over the top with how much "proof" of that digging is required before someone can feel comfortable asking their question.
(And I'm not really even complaining, just offering my observations on a topic that was already brought up for discussion....)
I get very sarcastic... But only because I think sarcasm is funny...
And you really don't have to explain it yourself *in every post.. Because most of us with a thorough background, can tell how much effort you put in, just by your question... (edit* Yourself is again analogous, not you)
For Example, the 2.1 thread this morning...
I opened it up, thinking to myself "Not again"...
But when I read and see that it was actually about A2DP, mindset about the thread changes, and I go into help mode... That invoked thought and development just from that post..
Now if I had opened it up, and it was a brand new "Can I change back to a rooted rom after the OTA update" question... I would have went into sarcasm mode... And I don't want to help that guy be lazy.. Why should we give him the benefit of spouting off verbatim what has been answered 1000 times before, just because he can't take the 20 mins to peruse over a couple threads??
I am all about the education of every single member of this forum, into all of the ways of Android... But its like what my papaw used to tell me, "You get what you put in."
And to ray...
Download GMOB chat, from the market...
Go to the rooted users chat, and there is usually alot of good info there, you just have to sort of wade through some of it, since you only get to see like the 50 most recent posts.. So it takes a little more effort to find anything... Also the apps room is pretty cool...
I have found technorati.com is getting alot better...
androidfreeware.com is good for apps.
OK, now to take the completely opposite side....
I was just reading another topic and in 5 minutes I saw 3 different questions posted that had been answered ON THAT SAME PAGE!!!
The proper profanity has not yet been invented to describe people like that.
See subliminal...
It's not that I don't wanna see those questions asked, I just want people to understand the nature of a forum, and alot* here do not...
If people read, before they start looking for answers, we would be alot better..
The issue is, that all of these people look to have a very limited understanding of Android, and just want a phone to use.. And this is not the forum for those.. Android-central, sprintusers.com, etc are more appropriate..
This forum is for development, not for chatting about the evo, or why your 1.5 is better than 2.1.. or how android is the iphone killer..
This forum is to bring ideas to our platform, and to build upon them... And to release mods and hacks..
Not for people to rant about how sprint sucks, and I want a nexus one..
Or to rant about how developers are stealing our donations....
It is to make our phone better, and with people feeding this nonsense, we are hindering the forum from where it should be...
azyouthinkeyeiz said:
Not for people to rant about how sprint sucks, and I want a nexus one..
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But what if Sprint sucks, the Nexus One is a POS...
AND....
Why can't I get a Nexus One on Sprint?
(I really do understand both sides of the issue. I just kinda agree that some on this forum are a bit quick on the draw with the "Use the search you ****in' noob!" gun....)
azyouthinkeyeiz said:
And to ray...
Download GMOB chat, from the market...
Go to the rooted users chat, and there is usually alot of good info there, you just have to sort of wade through some of it, since you only get to see like the 50 most recent posts.. So it takes a little more effort to find anything... Also the apps room is pretty cool...
I have found technorati.com is getting alot better...
androidfreeware.com is good for apps.
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Hey thanks, I'll check that out! By the way, after thinking about it today and catching up on this thread's replies, I think we're thinking on the same page.
It would be handy, I think, if we could get some extremely well written and dummy-proof How-To's stickied for the main page. I know there is already a sticky wicky for guides, but I remember still being a bit lost even having read them when I was new to the Hero. I wrote some extremely detailed step by step how-to's for the x51v over at htcgeeks, and though it might be my own vanity speaking, I think that it slowed down the constant repetitive questions. I'd volunteer to help out with this if we could get some Mod help to reorganize the stickies. I think we should have individual ones for...
- How To Setup an SD Card for A2SD
- How To Install Recovery and How To Use It (Nandroids, what they are, wipes, which ones to use for what, Fix UID's explanation, etc.)
- How To Flash a Custom ROM
- How To Flash a Custom Theme
- Troubleshooting PC Sync Issues
- How To Setup and Use ADB Shell with a list of ADB functions
I know we have this stuff now, but I remember it took a while to find all the info I needed to learn all these things when I was new to the Hero, and the current Guides sticky wasn't as helpful as it could have been. And I'm a pretty resourceful and intelligent guy who can search, read, and follow instructions! (Or at least I like to think so, lol)
Oh, and to make a preventative strike against hundreds of future bug reports on new ROMs, giant bold text on every page of every thread that says "WIPE DATA, DALVIK CACHE, AND SD EXT BEFORE FLASHING A DIFFERENT ROM!!!
1. A FAQ listed on each section. I know we have Wiki, but its usually outdated and hard to navigate. There really is no need for gigantic lists, but simple things like how to root, use odin, use clockwork, install roms/themes, etc... can be put there along with a warning on asking questions which have already been posted on the FAQ.
2. More Mods! I think just one or two more mods can help the forums a lot and clean things up.
3. Warnings for people who post questions that have already been answered on the front page of a thread or faq followed by a temp ban if they continue.
I'm really tired of the cycle of
- Dumb question posted
- Followed by "read the damn thread or use the damn search button"
- Followed by "Hey you were a noob once and theres no harm in answering the question you ass along with lengthy answer on the question that will inevitable be asked 10 more times in the near future"
- Continue flame war that now has nothing to do with the thread anymore
You enable people by holding their hands. Don't be an enabler. If you managed to find out how to do all this crap on your own, they can too. At most you should point them to the right thread and let them read up on it on their own so they can further their own education.
4. Don't PM the Devs for requests. They have enough work on their hands and don't need to be flooded. Remember the rule of think before you speak? Try thinking before you PM.
Anyhoo, there was a bunch more, but I'm sure you guys/gals have other ideas.
riceknight said:
1. A FAQ listed on each section. I know we have Wiki, but its usually outdated and hard to navigate. There really is no need for gigantic lists, but simple things like how to root, use odin, use clockwork, install roms/themes, etc... can be put there along with a warning on asking questions which have already been posted on the FAQ.
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I don't understand why the "[How To] Return to Stock / Fix Bricked Epic" thread is not sticked.
If someone posts they bricked their phone and needs help you post the link to that thread and lock it.
I like the sentiment of this thread but fear it might be taken the wrong way. Whosdaman is really a wonderful guy and has been very helpful to me but it seems like he is very busy (and who can blame him for dealing with things outside of the interwebs?) so I support this I would also like to issue a blanket "Thank you for your hard work" to Whosdaman.
Seeing as this is a collection of developers I don't see why we don't customize the forum itself.
I don't see any reason we can't flag the development and Q/A threads for every phone. Then, if "is this a question" is set to yes, automatically put it in that phone's Q/A forum. On top of which we could add a "You are posting in the development forum, this is reserved for people developing for [insert phone]. Please check the box below to confirm that you are developing something you wish to share." anytime people posted in the development forum.
Obviously people can still screw it up, if nothing else on purpose, but we can expect people who have never been on the forums to know how the forums are laid out, usually by reading the rules, which never happens, to sort their own, or we can make it as self sorting as possible.
Sounds like whosedaman just needs some support. Perhaps another mod added to help out. We all have to keep in mind that these guys don't get paid for this and real life always trumps forums life. Just my thought on this.
Sent from my Epic while i should be working
I was wondering why there was so much confusion in this forum, as I really liked the forums I used for the month I had a Moment before the Epic dropped. Was there ever a forum on here for the moment??? I couldnt find one, so I checked sdx, which I remember lurking back then and found my answer. Why can't Xda have 'child forums', with descriptions of where and why to post things?? They have a 'market' forum section for ROMs, etc, which we here are using development exclusively. I understand why, but it seems its this way here because of limited tools for organizing, can this sites software not do that? It is completely logical and intuitive to post questions directly regarding development or roms in the development section if you are new... I would have expected a sub-forum for roms only, or at least some direction other than after the fact... usually unless its horribly out of order, whosdaman is pretty polite about it, and given the feelings regarding this device, things get silly in here. Anyways, yes, at least sticky all roms and things 'coolguy' or whatever dont warrant flaming, and then politely notify the new people that questions regarding development actually get booted over to general, where intuitively people would assume GENERAL questions like 'do you like gmail or the stock app better?'.
More mods? Better structure? Who has control over this? Are there any experienced volunteers that can help whosdaman out with his daunting task?
We need to expect more 'joined in Dec 2010' and later members as every idiot with a blog and engadget included seem to think this site and forum are the authority, even over Sprint and Samsung (if XDA says 2.2 is dropping, it must be true, head over there and complain about it). NOTHING against new members, just that there is little direction other than the 'rules' that most people think are just 'dont flame, no kiddie porn... etc...' Dont get all elitist because people couldnt figure out your simple, non-intuitive structure because its their first 5 mins here.
Love this forum, but its like people are baited into getting flamed by assuming this forum runs like most any other... I thought I saw the end of this when I refused to go to another BBC chat... guess not.
If you feel that you must deputize yourself, please, copy the link to the wiki, rules, etc and paste them in misplaced, repeat threads and leave it at that.
since this is a fluff post, BigJim, whats the 1488 stand for??? Just curious...
ungovernable1977 said:
since this is a fluff post, BigJim, whats the 1488 stand for??? Just curious...
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Pardon? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'a fluff post'. I sincerely hope Whosdaman reads this thread and takes into account that there are some of us who would genuinely like to help him make our forums a more manageable place to browse and share ideas/roms/themes/etc. I am in no way asking for myself to be made a mod but rather I believe there are people here who would make good mods and I hope that WDM sees that we support him and want to help him make our community more accessible!
I'm willing to be a mod here I have experience and would know and how to handle things here...
Admins or mods pm me
sent from my Epic 4G
riceknight said:
1. A FAQ listed on each section. I know we have Wiki, but its usually outdated and hard to navigate. There really is no need for gigantic lists, but simple things like how to root, use odin, use clockwork, install roms/themes, etc... can be put there along with a warning on asking questions which have already been posted on the FAQ.
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Did you do a search before posting this? There's already a thread on it, learn how to use the search.
Ok, that was my attempt at humor
ungovernable1977 said:
since this is a fluff post, BigJim, whats the 1488 stand for??? Just curious...
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I don't think this is fluff at all and whosdaman does deserve to be thanked for his, well, thankless work.
1488 is a race thing. They usually won't tell you what the ideology of it is in public. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words
Although I don't agree with the sentiment of the belief structure, I support their right to peacefully observe their beliefs.
Yeah I know that meaning its generally a tattooed target, was just hoping it was just some retarded interweb speak. Sorry to hear. Almost forgot what it was though... not many Boneheads around here, not anymore.
BTW, I respect Lady Gaga's work, although I dont like it, therefore I see no reason to put it in my username.... its ok, you have a right to be a Nazi in this country...
Regrettably, I do read almost every thread in this forum, and forums I maintain...
<--------- Look here, I have 8 forums to maintain full time, but 6 are dead lol
Yeah I do have a life outside this for sure. Not only am I a senior in High School, I am on the Mock Trial team, the Robotics Team, a Sales Representative for Sprint, and a Writer for BriefMobile.com
So yeah I would say I'm busy, but I look over the entire forum as much as I can. Shep211 has been extremely busy in his personal life, that's why I started helping.
It is a thankless job, it's a volunteer job. All free, I don't get paid. The only thanks comes from the owner of the site when I say "if you fix this the site will be better."
Besides all that I can single handedly control this entire forum. I know it sometimes looks cluttered and in a mess, but then again...the Development section is spotless, which is truely the only thing that matters. The General section is meant to be a mess because it's where everyone posts their questions and complaints.
There are applications to become a moderator here on XDA, you have to meet certain requirements to be considered and then be approved. No one of this forum knows my experience as a moderator unless you used GameBattles.com for PS3.
If you want to help me out the most, please please please, use the "Report Post" feature. Every reported post goes straight to my inbox, and I see every single one. Normally RP's get extra attention as they obviously have bothered someone enough to have it reported. 90% of the RP's are either Ghost or Kenvan.
The search feature would do alot of people good, it's nice to tell people to do something, but Report the post/thread and I'll take care of it. You clutter up the forum and threads by posting in threads saying to post in General, just report it. That's all.
Sure, I wish everyone searched because there are at least 5 can't root threads. I would rather merge them all but it too much work to find them. Like I said, let the noobs make their mistake. The members report the post, don't tell them they were wrong. I'll move it, shoot them a PM, and then post in their thread telling them where they should have posted. Then hopefully they will learn.
Thanks again,
WDM
kenvan19 said:
Pardon? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'a fluff post'. I sincerely hope Whosdaman reads this thread and takes into account that there are some of us who would genuinely like to help him make our forums a more manageable place to browse and share ideas/roms/themes/etc. I am in no way asking for myself to be made a mod but rather I believe there are people here who would make good mods and I hope that WDM sees that we support him and want to help him make our community more accessible!
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Sorry, fluff may have been a wrong choice of words, I was implying that as this has been talked about before, and ignored by the powers that be, I saw it was going to end up an off topic post eventually, or at least until the elitist post Nazis (no offense bigjim) came in and said how we are cluttering their precious first page of posts, because as most have trouble with the AMAZING search function, a lot here have a lot of trouble with 'next page', you dont even have to pick which page, it takes you right to the next one!
Sorry, this is just getting really retarded around here, oh and BigJim,apologies, last comment on your beliefs, if off topic, but being an anarcho-punk, its hard not to at least ask if that is REALLY what you are talking about.
hehe *blush* I've tried to resort to reporting posts lately as opposed to trying to deal with problems on my own. Hope its not too much of a burden.
THANK YOU whosdaman! that is a very simple way to deal with the clutter issue... didnt even realise what the report button was till i looked around for it. I agree that not replying, positive or negative is good, if its easier for you to redirect them (you could probably easily make a form letter, just sub in 'froyo', 'GPS', or 'search' and the rest is pretty much the same!)
So what of the ability to make sub forums??? to be able to have a section under Dev that is for general DEV RELATED questions would be cool... most people assume that General is for stock, non rooted phone discussion, and Development is for anything to do with development. I think I remember one called 'all things root'?? Idunno, but you get the idea. So what is the plausability of this?? not possible with site software? Too much work??? Just curious, I have asked in similar threads and I think you were too busy with other stuff... I tend to avoid PM especially if it is something someone else may be able to answer, as we all know, mods are busy, especially in this forum. Thanks for all your hard work!
I certainly appreciate all the hard work Whosdaman has been doing with these forums, but unless he enjoys handling all this, wouldn't an extra mod or two be helpful?
My biggest thing is the FAQ post. Someone asks questions, you can point and say you should have read that first. Like I said before, the Wiki is great, but its a little cluttered and outdated as well as being hard to edit. Having one person willing to just moderate that one thread would be so helpful.
It bugs me when the whole community seems to be represented by the lazy people who just spam post. There are plenty of helpful, polite and very well informed that get lost among the clutter. In fact, they probably outnumber the newbies but don't feel the need to post nonsense. For every idiot that asks a dumb question, there are probably 10 that actually do research and figure it out for themselves.
kenvan19 said:
hehe *blush* I've tried to resort to reporting posts lately as opposed to trying to deal with problems on my own. Hope its not too much of a burden.
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Nope, I love you and ghost for reporting post. I always look forward to waking up and seeing 10 new PMs lol
ungovernable1977 said:
THANK YOU whosdaman! that is a very simple way to deal with the clutter issue... didnt even realise what the report button was till i looked around for it. I agree that not replying, positive or negative is good, if its easier for you to redirect them (you could probably easily make a form letter, just sub in 'froyo', 'GPS', or 'search' and the rest is pretty much the same!)
So what of the ability to make sub forums??? to be able to have a section under Dev that is for general DEV RELATED questions would be cool... most people assume that General is for stock, non rooted phone discussion, and Development is for anything to do with development. I think I remember one called 'all things root'?? Idunno, but you get the idea. So what is the plausability of this?? not possible with site software? Too much work??? Just curious, I have asked in similar threads and I think you were too busy with other stuff... I tend to avoid PM especially if it is something someone else may be able to answer, as we all know, mods are busy, especially in this forum. Thanks for all your hard work!
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I have no control over sub-forums. And right now it is only me working on the entire Epic forum. Like I said shep211 is gone atm.
svetius is in charge of the entire site, and I've talked to him about improvements that can be made. I wouldn't bother him too much or he'll just ignore ya. Most of the time the only things he is interested is fixing errors with the site itself. Right now I don't think we are in the area of reorganizing the entire site.
ok, so adding a subforum is not possible? Or is it a decision to make the structure uniform across the whole site? Just thinking, because this forum is like maximum security, different from the rest... or so it would seem...
I'm not so sure making more areas, and thus more chances to be wrong, is a good way to combat posting in the wrong area.
If you have a rom question, ask it in the rom thread. All that would happen if there were subforums for things in development, and discussion of things in development is we'd have 37 threads about how "I just discovered ___ doesn't work in [rom]" instead of 50 posts about it in the rom thread.
(Not to mention you'd then be blurring the line of when it is or isn't ok to post in the DEV forum, where as now, if the person bothers to read, there's a pretty clear cut "If you aren't about to post about the thing you just developed, GTFO" rule.)
I just noticed this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=638133
May I ask why there is a ban on discussions of which ROMs are best?
Isn't that the whole point of a forum?
Is there anything else we should be aware of? banned words, certain sentences, are there any particular phrases that we can get into trouble for?
Ever heard of freedom of speech?
Am I going to get into trouble for this message because you don't like it?
Well i think it has nothing to do with ''censure''. Just some of us think that there is no BEST ROM and one should find out the BEST ROM for himself by himself.
But i may be wrong.
There is actualy no best rom!
For every user there is a best experience/stability/usefullness
How can you say its the best rom for me if it doesnt suit my taste?
Every HD2 behaves diferently from batch to batch, so another issue, for your hd2 one build may work perfect and for me - not at all...
No point in these threads.
Go in the apropreate build thread and post there, say whatever you like - it's the best, it's the worse...
I can't see any censureship here.
There is actualy no best rom!
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This may be a valid point but how would we know if we are not permitted to talk about it ?
BTW. when I titled this thread 'XDA Censured?' it was a Freudian slip of the computer keyboard I should have typed 'Censored' however 'Censure' means to formally rebuke
I happen to strongly believe in freedom of speech and if people wish to talk about what they think is the best ROM for them and why etc. then if this is indeed a forum for the perpetuation of freedom of speech I think it is very wrong that some individuals should take it upon themselves to decide that this is not a fit topic for discussion and to close threads based on there own personal and dare one say dictatorial opinions.
That is the beginning of a slippery slide down into a cesspit of censorship and we don't want a smelly forum now do we!
IanMc said:
This may be a valid point but how would we know if we are not permitted to talk about it ?
BTW. when I titled this thread 'XDA Censured?' it was a Freudian slip of the computer keyboard I should have typed 'Censored' however 'Censure' means to formally rebuke
I happen to strongly believe in freedom of speech and if people wish to talk about what they think is the best ROM for them and why etc. then if this is indeed a forum for the perpetuation of freedom of speech I think it is very wrong that some individuals should take it upon themselves to decide that this is not a fit topic for discussion and to close threads based on there own personal and dare one say dictatorial opinions.
That is the beginning of a slippery slide down into a cesspit of censorship and we don't want a smelly forum now do we!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if all the mor... eh users where able to make just whatever post on the boards they liked everything would be a insane mess. topics that come along every week or so are usles they always have the same result. one user says THIS IS THE BEST !!!!!!!11111oneoneone the other says NO YOU SUCK THIS IS THE BEST !!!!!!!1111oneone and this wil go on for about 40 pages and still no one is any wiser.
In the meanwhile a good user just went along and found a rom he liked visually and with a nice amount of aps he likes. He found it was not his rom and try's another one and keeps trying until he finds his best rom.
The problem here is that alot of users have their opinions and they think their opinions are the only possible correct answer. And guess what oppinions can't be wrong. They can be different weird or even downright bizarre but they are all correct in their own world.
So you can create a topic and expect a flood of spam flame wars and rubbish but all it gets you is either a major Troll boner or a headache.
So you are saying that the 'mor...' users of this forum should not be allowed to decide the topics ?
So it's a kind of hit and miss thing then huh? I'll start a topic about something that I'm interested in and check back in a while to see if it's either been deleted, closed or allowed to exist?
I suppose there's an inverse law in there somewhere, a ratio of something like:
Successful topic = users subject / tin pot dictators opinions
so that the greater the number of people with the ability to close threads based on their own whims the fewer the number of successful postings and the more damage done to the integrity of the forums.
You, in the meantime, think you are doing us all a favour by blindly planting your 'loyalty' with the ones doing the censorship.
In the meanwhile a good user just went along and found a rom he liked visually and with a nice amount of aps he likes. He found it was not his rom and try's another one and keeps trying until he finds his best rom.
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And then he is not allowed to tell anyone about it.
when you register acount on this site/forum,do you check YES/accept with the ruules
Because this is a development forum (or we try to be).
Disucssions on the "Best ROM" are subjective, and time limitted. Most people have thier faviorite ROM, this is not the best ROM, but they believe it is. I have seen these threads in the past and they just deteriate into "Fanboi'istic" (word a day ) debates over who's ROM is best and why.
A Clean ROM is fast and customisable, a Loaded ROM is feature rich, a themed ROM is the Chef's taste, etc.
Here is a lengthy discussion which I participated in last time this topic was raised : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=466666
Thanks
Dave
No ROM is BEST !!!!!1111oneoneone11! (Though personally I think that ****** ROMs are good)
IanMc said:
So you are saying that the 'mor...' users of this forum should not be allowed to decide the topics ?
So it's a kind of hit and miss thing then huh? I'll start a topic about something that I'm interested in and check back in a while to see if it's either been deleted, closed or allowed to exist?
I suppose there's an inverse law in there somewhere, a ratio of something like:
Successful topic = users subject / tin pot dictators opinions
so that the greater the number of people with the ability to close threads based on their own whims the fewer the number of successful postings and the more damage done to the integrity of the forums.
You, in the meantime, think you are doing us all a favour by blindly planting your 'loyalty' with the ones doing the censorship.
And then he is not allowed to tell anyone about it.
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IanMc said:
This may be a valid point but how would we know if we are not permitted to talk about it ?
BTW. when I titled this thread 'XDA Censured?' it was a Freudian slip of the computer keyboard I should have typed 'Censored' however 'Censure' means to formally rebuke
I happen to strongly believe in freedom of speech and if people wish to talk about what they think is the best ROM for them and why etc. then if this is indeed a forum for the perpetuation of freedom of speech I think it is very wrong that some individuals should take it upon themselves to decide that this is not a fit topic for discussion and to close threads based on there own personal and dare one say dictatorial opinions.
That is the beginning of a slippery slide down into a cesspit of censorship and we don't want a smelly forum now do we!
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Click to collapse
You can talk the hell out of it, no one is stopping you, just do it in the right place - the build thread.
If you don't like the way moderators run the forum you can delete the account and make your personal Freedom forum or whatever you like...
Personaly I think you are a joke.
Be well and speak freely
btw
As a fellow xda user said above: you accepted the rules which the creators/owners/moderators of this forum ask us to comply with. Period!
IanMc said:
So you are saying that the 'mor...' users of this forum should not be allowed to decide the topics ?
So it's a kind of hit and miss thing then huh? I'll start a topic about something that I'm interested in and check back in a while to see if it's either been deleted, closed or allowed to exist?
I suppose there's an inverse law in there somewhere, a ratio of something like:
Successful topic = users subject / tin pot dictators opinions
so that the greater the number of people with the ability to close threads based on their own whims the fewer the number of successful postings and the more damage done to the integrity of the forums.
You, in the meantime, think you are doing us all a favour by blindly planting your 'loyalty' with the ones doing the censorship.
And then he is not allowed to tell anyone about it.
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I see that you do not get the point of all this:
- that thread has been closed because it has no point.
- you can discuss the best rom thing for 1000 pages and there will be no BEST ROM, because there is no best rom.
-of course you can tell other people what you think about a rom but your best rom will not be my best rom
- so this is why that thread was closed.
-it is F***ING POINTLESS
- JUST LIKE THIS THREAD.
I agree this thread is totally pointless.
It would be great if a moderator closes it as it brings nothing to discuss just like the other thread that was closed.
If everyone would open a thread like this it would be very hard to find the best rom as the board
would be all cluttered with best rom threads and yes and no discussions.
DaveShaw
That was a very helpful post, the link you posted was most helpful and I especially agree with the well-crafted response from dumpydooby.
I apologise if I have posted in the wrong place and quite understand if this thread is moved to the correct place.
You are also correct that discussions of this nature are time limited.
Obviously we can all see that this is a subject of passion to many.
In my humble opinion there should always be a 'what we think is the best ROM for device X at the moment' thread. When it does get too old or argumentative etc. then just start a new one.
berbecverde
I disagree, I think there will always be a need to discuss the most popular combination of ROM/Radio/Apps of the moment. If you feel strongly that we should not have this freedom then I feel strongly that you are wrong.
lms1407
You just revert to personal insults, I'll bet you say things like 'this conversation is over!'
Avon76
Do you really think that your post was helpful? Honestly?
Massive post wot I prepared earlier follows, look away now if you're not interested.....
I suspect that this whole thread will be deleted or removed or force closed by the censors very soon so read it while you can.
Let me illustrate my points here, remember that I am talking about my dislike for censoring these forums in general for any topics but let's use the topic of discussion of ROMs to show how the censors are damaging the integrity of the forums and shooting themselves in their own feet at the same time.
Let's do it with a thought experiment.
Developers A, B, C and D develop ROMs for device X and make them available to users.
Users, quite within their rights in my opinion decide to discuss the various merits, likes and dislikes about these ROMs in a thread called 'Best ROMs for device X' where one user says 'I liked the graphics on A's ROM but I really liked the apps on D's ROM and I found C's ROM to be a bit unstable and I'm using ROM B at the moment because ...... '
Please imagine your answer for this question.
Who will benefit from this discourse?
Developers A, B, C or D ?
The users ?
Everyone ?
It is quite obvious that some of the users with the ability to close threads have the opinion that all ROMs should be tried and that there should be no shortcuts and new users should be railroaded into having to go through all the procedures that 'everyone else has had to do' and their only method to enforce this policy is to censor what is allowed to be posted but I would like to point out that in doing so they are going against some peoples wishes, look at one of the posts in that other thread (created by a senior member) where one user states:
Personally think this thread is a good idea for people like myself don't have a lot of spare time and haven't flashed a ROM yet; but are interested in doing so and want to know a good place to start, based on more seasoned users experiences.
I for one will be keenly viewing this thread (provided it doesn't get closed!).
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However apart from all the unseen damage that censorship causes, in this particular case the developers might get some valuable insight into what users are actually looking for, a healthy competition might be the result and then who do you think is going to get the benefit in the end? Everyone!
There will always be those who want to try every ROM and Radio etc. but at the moment these people are restricted to the individual ROM threads if they want to share the results of their hard work and anyone who wants to see an objective discussion of the merits of the different ROM/Radio/Apps versions is forced to look on other forums on other websites.
The developers never really get to know what it is that the users really want.
Look at the mechanism at the moment, the user goes to the thread of developer A and says 'you're ROM is the best! Fantastic!, would it be possible to adjust this bit here?' and the developer thinks cool, they really love my ROM and he may or may not get around to adjusting that bit there.
Look at what it could be like:
Yeah, developer A's ROM is ok but I user developer B's ROM at the moment coz A's doesn't do this ...'
No kissass required, if developer A wants everyone to use his ROM then he'll need to make it like everyone wants or better.
Laurentius26
I see the massive amount of posts that you have made, I'm sure that you have been of tremendous help to a lot of people and that your opinion probably carries a lot of weight around here but I have to ask this question, would you not agree that the definition of a pointless post is that no-one replies to it?
Would you not agree that the mere fact that this topic is getting a lot of replies would indicate that it is in fact a topic of interest and therefore cannot be regarded as pointless?
I can see the potential advantages of having such threads, but seeing the number of arguments and fall outs users have already regarding ROMs abilities, chef preferences, what makes a good ROM, etc. it would fail.
If all our users were well bahaved (which they are not), they all stayed on-topic then we wouldn't need as many mods as we do now. As it is, there are many reported posts everyday from users that require mods attention, keeping the forum as organised and as friendly as we can.
Having to maintain "Best ROM" threads would be tiresome with well behaved users, just having to keep closing and re-opening new threads based on public opinion, but throw in troll, flamer's, fanbois it would be work.
In the past we have allowed "ROM Comparison" threads, that are fact driven, not opinion driven, as there is no reason not to.
My other concern is what will happen to Chefs if other users constantly down vote their ROM's (that is if they want to follow that thread as well as their own ROM threads).
Also,
Closing a thread does not censor it. It is still viewable and searchable, new useres, can search the site for the "Best HD2 ROM" and find a link to threads explaining why they are closed and what's the best way to try a new ROM. In guides I have previously assisted in writing (mskip's, Kaiser and Rhodium) it includes text advising users which is ROM to try first. If a user is new to XDA, they are encouraged to post questions in such threads, where (all been well) they will get a reply telling them to just try one after reading about the features. I have suggested NRG's ROMs to new users in the past because of their stability and popularity.
Dave
Well now with good argument like that you are changing my outlook and many of the things you say I had not considered.
I think we are very lucky to have such a place as XDA-Developers and such places show the big guns that there is also genius in the little folk.
If it proves to be too much work to maintain such threads then I quite understand why you won't have them although I can imagine a good moderator might keep an eye on such a thread and take an action like 'I am closing this thread now as it is degenerating into argument and insult, you are welcome to start a new one but be advised that I will close it also unless the discussion is kept at an acceptable level of civility' but if that is too much work then I quite understand why such a topic would not be allowed.
Thanks for your good discussion Dave, at least you don't revert to personal insults as a mechanism for argument
IanMc said:
Well now with good argument like that you are changing my outlook and many of the things you say I had not considered.
I think we are very lucky to have such a place as XDA-Developers and such places show the big guns that there is also genius in the little folk.
If it proves to be too much work to maintain such threads then I quite understand why you won't have them although I can imagine a good moderator might keep an eye on such a thread and take an action like 'I am closing this thread now as it is degenerating into argument and insult, you are welcome to start a new one but be advised that I will close it also unless the discussion is kept at an acceptable level of civility' but if that is too much work then I quite understand why such a topic would not be allowed.
Thanks for your good discussion Dave, at least you don't revert to personal insults as a mechanism for argument
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For a bit of history this decision was made long before I was a mod, and spent my Senior member days handing out insults to those who created those threads.
Even back then when a good number of users were mature and technical, before android and the mass increase of new members with, the mods (a few still remain ) knew the problems with such threads. As such, I don't think we will ever shift from this position.
Also,
I am a stackoverflow.com user and they have a similar rules on subjective posting for many of the same reasons.
This thread is just retarded even more then the ridiculous "what the best rom" threads.
Those threads are not "censored" they are simply moved or deleted because people are getting sick of them as they are asked every day and the answer is the same every time but still you get n00bs asking.
Its like going into ice0cream shop and saying "hey what your best ice-cream", just plain stupid.
TheATHEiST
Well surely this is just your own personal opinion?
One thread in each ROM area dedicated to users findings of the various ROMs for that device could be invaluable for both developers and users instead of the complete labyrinth it is at the moment (although I read that the HD2 forums are going to be rearranged soon). And it might be a moderator decision to close the thread when it gets too large to keep it current, civil and up-to-date.
However I think people like Dave are the only ones who really know what it is like to maintain such threads.
I would like to point out though that such public forums are for public discussion, it is all too easy to say 'hey that subject is retarded' and attempt to frighten or bully people away from discussing a subject that you don't think is appropriate, but personally I think that is wrong and against the spirit of free discussion on the internet.
IanMc said:
TheATHEiST
Well surely this is just your own personal opinion?
One thread in each ROM area dedicated to users findings of the various ROMs for that device could be invaluable for both developers and users instead of the complete labyrinth it is at the moment (although I read that the HD2 forums are going to be rearranged soon). And it might be a moderator decision to close the thread when it gets too large to keep it current, civil and up-to-date.
However I think people like Dave are the only ones who really know what it is like to maintain such threads.
I would like to point out though that such public forums are for public discussion, it is all too easy to say 'hey that subject is retarded' and attempt to frighten or bully people away from discussing a subject that you don't think is appropriate, but personally I think that is wrong and against the spirit of free discussion on the internet.
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Go buy a CHE t shirt and go yell at the white house fight the power and all its censorship. Seriously you accepted rules when you registered here. This is not a democracy this is a privately owned forum where moderators decide if some topic is retarded yes or no.
And i hate to bring it to you like this but a retarded monkey fish is less retarded then that topic. No amount of talking or trying to convince your topic is something different then the next what build is best for my HD2 because i am to lazy to search topic. That kind of topic gets closed nearly EVERY DAY.
So again if you are so keen to fight the power buy a che t shirt and go yell at your local government.
And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
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The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
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, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
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Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
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Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
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In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.
stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
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I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
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This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
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Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
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No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
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The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
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I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
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I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
Click to expand...
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Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
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This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
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Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections
stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
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That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.
stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
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Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?
well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us