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Sony XZ camera quality

Having used XZ's camera for some hundred pictures in various conditions, I have to comment on the very smart automatic mode. It does produce excellent results in identifying conditions and exposure and colour rendition are trully very good. However, photograhic quality is just not there. Detail suffers a lot from either noise or too much post processing. In some cases when viewing at 1:1 zoom, it reminds me the results of applying some of photoshop's artistic filters in a subtle yet identifiable way.
Sony must have had a reason to incorporate such heavy post processing. The Exmor RS module was originally designed to handle RGBW coding (white plus the traditional RGB). Apparently somewhere along the way, Sony changed their minds as they could not make it work to their "image quality standards" and reverted back to traditional RGB (1), (2). One can only make assumptions, but perhaps the rather heavy noise processing of the image and compression may have its roots to decisions taken to correct other issues, ie. degraded light performance and consequent noise through higher ISOs.
It would be interesting to see how the sensor performs in other phones. One example is the Oppo Find 5. Unfortunately the results are pretty much the same, ie. plenty of noise which brings down detail. (3), (4) Which can only mean that the root of the problem is either any firmware handling the signal of the actual image sensor or that the design itself is flawed.
It is rumoured that the same sensor will also be used in the new SGS4 (we will know soon enough) and the revised iPhone 5S. So let's wait and see what they can make of it. It would be disappointing to see two highly anticipated phones featuring worse cameras than the models they are replacing.
In photographic terms, the way to get better pictures is larger aperture and image stabilization. Letting more light in is the secret and there are two ways of doing it: larger aperture or longer exposure times. The latter results in shaky pictures which is counteracted to some extent though image stabilization. The former usually requires a longer camera+lens module. (in DSLRs larger aperture also means small DOF but this is not an issue for phone cameras where the sensor is so small). That's why incorporating a F/2.0 or F/2.2 aperture usually means thicker phone or a lump at the back. Sony also makes a F/2.2 module which is 5.5mm thick vs 4.2mm for the F/2.4 which was selected for the XZ, probably to keep its thickness to an impressive 7.9mm. (5) The larger aperture could also an excuse for the thickness of the Nokia Lumia 920 which its F/2.0 aperture lens. (6) However, Lumia 920 does pull it off and the result of a good sensor, the F/2.0 aperture and optical image stabilization is great photographic quality. Another approach is having less pixels, something HTC implemented in the One, which again features a F/2.0 aperture @ 9.3mm thickness. However this also has obvious disadvantages in losing detail and the ability to crop a photograph.
Higher pixel count, 13MP vs 8MP, also means that to get the same exposure with the same speed, aperture and ISO rating you need MORE light. (7) Thus, when 8MP is pretty good resolution for every day photography, increasing the pixel count just for the sake of it is the wrong way to go. I do not need to use my Canon 550D at more than 8MP, even when on holidays, even though it supports 18MP resolution.
What has the future in store for us? Well, Sony has made a large investment in the new assembly line and tools to produce the Exmor RS series and they want to see it through. So, I would expect to see revised editions of the module with significant improvements.
Many thanks for reading.
Sources
(1) engadget.com/2012/09/21/sony-exmor-rs-stacked-phone-camera-sensors-detuned-over-quality/
(2) droiddog.com/android-blog/2012/09/sonys-exmor-rs-sensors-downgraded-due-to-quality-concerns/
(3) gizmochina.com/2012/12/15/oppo-find-5-using-sony-cmos-exmor-rs-sensor-camera-component/
(4) gsmarena.com/oppo_find_5-review-880p8.php
(5) imaging-resource.com/news/2012/08/20/sony-exmor-rs-sensors-to-allow-slimmer-better-camera-phones
(6) nokia.com/global/products/phone/lumia920/specifications/[/url]
(7) wpcentral.com/thoughts-and-impressions-nokia-lumia-920s-pureview-camera

so XZ camera issue is due to a software?
For the Mp count, u mean that a DSLR like nikon D800 is not only useless but pointless DSLR.
Photographer use extra MP to take pics at RAW format then convert them the way the Photographer want.

Only the engineers at Sony know if the issue can be corrected with revised algorithms or indeed the sensor can't give anything more. My view is that if this was possible they would not have resorted to so much post processing in the first place. If anything Sony knows photography photography much more than Apple or Samsung.
Of course I am not suggesting that dSLRs have the same function as a camera phone. My personal view is that as a casual photographer I don't need more than 8MPs. Of course there have been instances were I choose to shoot in RAW but I doubt that in such a situation a 13MP camera sensor will bail me out anyway. A dSLR is another beast. My message was about finding the best balance for a camera phone.
Thank you

8MP on dslr is not the same 8MP on a phone.
The sensor in dslr is way bigger than the one i a phone.
Sent from my C6602 using xda premium

Hopefully this is not the result of the Sony camera division trying to hold back on their phones. It happened before with Sony Music trying to stop them from releasing a MP3 player, thats why they were stuck with the mini disk atrac bs for a long time and enter very later into the mp3 market. Too often things like this happened in the company where we see the left hand is trying to fight the right hand making the company so far behind the competitors. Makes no sense that their phone camera is still very mediocre where they make some of the best camera out there.

comparing to my Xperia X10i i get the feeling the color is to much yellow in iAutomatic!
https://picasaweb.google.com/114460...&authkey=Gv1sRgCOO5m9yRrqu1Vw&feat=directlink
btw: Your Opinion on this Topic ?
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6777/understanding-camera-optics-smartphone-camera-trends

Is there anyway to make taken images stay at the size they are suposed to be? I mean i want to stop the compression of the image like I had on Xperia S and quality was much better (not better than on xperia Z tho )

Info on the Z5's camera system

I found this a few weeks ago while looking for details on the new fangled closed-loop actuator. It was from a presentation given by Sony in Taiwan. It's in Chinese (use Google Translate), but the slides are in English.
http://www.sogi.com.tw/articles/sony_xperia_z5/6243711

Translation:
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/...w.sogi.com.tw/articles/sony_xperia_z5/6243711

The closed-loop actuator should be just used to detect the motion direction for the video software stabilization, not really acting like an OIS to actively cancel the vibration.

TheEndHK said:
The closed-loop actuator should be just used to detect the motion direction for the video software stabilization, not really acting like an OIS to actively cancel the vibration.
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It definitely cancels vibrations. Check out this video. The dash of the car is vibrating like nuts, but the video is buttery smooth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylKufshZ698
What's not clear is whether the actuator is being used to stabilize picture taking. The only thing I've read is that the actuator helps make the auto-focus faster and more accurate for pics. I assume if it were software-only, then the frame would be cropped, and the border would be used to "adjust" the image. I don't think that's the case... could Z5 owners verify?
I believe Timaustin2000 said that SteadyShot doesn't work in 23/20 MP manual mode (please correct me if I'm wrong), which would lead me to believe it is disabled for 23/20 MP SA as well. That would explain why some pics look "smudged" in 23/20 MP.
Any Z5 owner want to comment on how SteadyShot is working for pics?

joe_dude said:
It definitely cancels vibrations. Check out this video. The dash of the car is vibrating like nuts, but the video is buttery smooth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylKufshZ698
What's not clear is whether the actuator is being used to stabilize picture taking. The only thing I've read is that the actuator helps make the auto-focus faster and more accurate for pics. I assume if it were software-only, then the frame would be cropped, and the border would be used to "adjust" the image. I don't think that's the case... could Z5 owners verify?
I believe Timaustin2000 said that SteadyShot doesn't work in 23/20 MP manual mode (please correct me if I'm wrong), which would lead me to believe it is disabled for 23/20 MP SA as well. That would explain why some pics look "smudged" in 23/20 MP.
Any Z5 owner want to comment on how SteadyShot is working for pics?
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The video enabled the Intelligent Active Mode for software video stabilization which helps from the actuator but isn't an OIS still because it does cut the FOV. If it is a truely OIS, Sony will advertise it. Actuator isn't any new stuffs. Sony been used such actuator for a long long time in some old DV tape camcorderor small FHD camcorder like TG1(which I had one).
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080404/150013/
Apr 4, 2008
As a result, the volume of entire optical system including the actuator is significantly reduced, namely "a 75% reduction from the existing models," according to Osano.
The steadyshot won't actually work for photo bcoz both 23MP/8MP got the same FOV. The actuator is mainly designed for detect the direction and hence, might got a bit helpful for video focusing as well.

TheEndHK said:
The video enabled the Intelligent Active Mode for software video stabilization which helps from the actuator but isn't an OIS still because it does cut the FOV. If it is a truely OIS, Sony will advertise it. Actuator isn't any new stuffs. Sony been used such actuator for a long long time in some old DV tape camcorderor small FHD camcorder like TG1(which I had one).
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080404/150013/
Apr 4, 2008
As a result, the volume of entire optical system including the actuator is significantly reduced, namely "a 75% reduction from the existing models," according to Osano.
The steadyshot won't actually work for photo bcoz both 23MP/8MP got the same FOV. The actuator is mainly designed for detect the direction and hence, might got a bit helpful for video focusing as well.
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Ah yes, you're right. I remember seeing that the FOV is narrower when taking video, hence the "hybrid" stabilization. But it still doesn't clarify what SteadyShot does for pics. I had assumed the actuator system was derived from the Alpha series, which is sensor-based, but it might not be the case. Looking at the block diagram, the actuator sits above the sensor, nor does it use a floating lens of a traditional OIS system.
It looks to me that the actuator is used as a shock/shake suppressor rather than precise lens compensation. Not enough info to go on.

joe_dude said:
Ah yes, you're right. I remember seeing that the FOV is narrower when taking video, hence the "hybrid" stabilization. But it still doesn't clarify what SteadyShot does for pics. I had assumed the actuator system was derived from the Alpha series, which is sensor-based, but it might not be the case. Looking at the block diagram, the actuator sits above the sensor, nor does it use a floating lens of a traditional OIS system.
It looks to me that the actuator is used as a shock/shake suppressor rather than precise lens compensation. Not enough info to go on.
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Sony said they are considering to implement OIS in next year. The actuator comes with the Z5 lens but the Sony TG1 actuator is also located in the optical system. It needs some of shock/sharke suppressor to calculating the direction but if it is an OIS, it actually need a much larger space for the lens or sensor to "move". On my S6, I can see my lens moving on the back, it is a lens-shift based OIS.

Camera sensor question

Alright, so it's known that the sensor used in the N6P is the Sony IMX377. However, does anyone know if this sensor is native 16:9? 12.3mp is already pretty damn low for a "flagship" phone now-a-days, so it would kind of suck to have to go down to 9.6mp to shoot in a 16:9 aspect ratio.

I quickly googled the sensor and there are a couple of datasheets, I am no camera lens technical expert but it looks like 12.3MP is 4:3.
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/IS/sensor2/products/imx377.html

__NBH__ said:
I quickly googled the sensor and there are a couple of datasheets, I am no camera lens technical expert but it looks like 12.3MP is 4:3.
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/IS/sensor2/products/imx377.html
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Damn. I have to say, that's disappointing...

Yeah, it's 9.6mp in 16:9.

I like 4:3 MUCH better for photos, anyway.

Same, 4:3 is better

Me too...

4:3 crop sensors are fsr more common than full frame 16:9 ones. I like the 4:3 shots better anyway

I agree it is very disappointing. I don't like 4:3 photos at all and I'm use to DSLRs with 16:9 photos.

Slash8915 said:
Alright, so it's known that the sensor used in the N6P is the Sony IMX377. However, does anyone know if this sensor is native 16:9? 12.3mp is already pretty damn low for a "flagship" phone now-a-days, so it would kind of suck to have to go down to 9.6mp to shoot in a 16:9 aspect ratio.
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Are you sure you need all that resolution? Even at 9.6 MP that's more information than could be displayed on a 4K television screen.
Keep in mind that although the IMX377 is not as high resolution sensor as some of the 16 MP and 20 MP sensors seen these days, it is a very large 1/2.3 sensor (large for a phone). So it is actually physically the largest sensor that's been put in any flagship, except the Xperia Zx phones and the great Nokia phones (like the 808, 1020, N8 that have sensors which remain years beyond anyone, even though they are no longer new phones).
So the reason the 6P has "only" 12.3 MP is not because it is a "low" or "small" sensor. It's a very large sensor (again, for a phone). But instead of using the extra size for more pixels, which is a waste for almost all purposes, they use the extra size for larger pixels. This means the images should have better color accuracy (lack of reviews of the phone proving this, notwithstanding), because the larger pixels can catch more light. The overall larger sensor also improves low light performance and noise.
Even the Z5, the only other phone with a 1/2.3 sensors, doesn't use it's full 23 MP to create unnecessarily enormous photos with details no one needs. Instead its default setting to to produce 8 MP images. The extra pixels are used to oversample, using many pixels to composite into one effectively larger pixel, for the advantages of color accuracy and lower noise. This is the "Pureview" technique pioneered by Nokia with the 808 and its huge 1/1.2 sensor, that's actually 41 MP, but defaults to "only" 5 MP final images.
So unless you have a very specialized need for more detail than the already massive amoung of detail of 9.6 MP or 12.3 MP (and assuming you even have a screen capable of displaying more than the 8 MP it takes to fll a 4K screen), the benefits of smaller images, with larger pixels, and a larger 1/2.3 sensor far outweigh pointless extra pixels that people get obsessed with but serves no purpose for most people. Remember, the megapixel race in phones and consumer cameras has always been a mistake, that produces a level of detail people don't need and can't see, that produces unnecessarily large file sizes, and that actually creates problems like reduced color accuracy and increased noise. Physical sensor size matters a lot, megapixels, beyond about 5 MP or 8 MP serve no purpose (unless you're creating billboards or printing wall sized photos).
*
One side note, if your current phone is the LG G4, as your signature suggests, I would not expect to get better images out of the 6P. The G4 has arguably the best camera in a current smartphone. It already has a pretty large 1/2.6 sensor. Even though it's pretty high resolution at 16 MP, apparently they've done something to really reduce the amount of noise you'd normally expect from a 16 MP sensor. And it has one very large advantage over the 6P, which is OIS (optical image stabilization). I'd really wait for reviews that compare the G4 camera to the 6P, if this is important to you. At best, I'd expect the 6P to be as good as the G4 (and it may not be), but I'd be surprised if it surpassed the G4 for still images. And without OIS, there's no way videos will be as stable on the 6P, whatever other merits it may have.

The Z5 have a pretty stable camera, one of the best in the market right now and it doesnt have OIS. So lets hope google will arrive with a better algorithm

Camera Resolution

Been playing around with camera resolution and I understand that while the actual sensor is 48MP OP defaults it to 12MP to "capture" more details (I think thing the 48MP setting provides better shots but that's subjective).
Now the question/issue that I have is when looking in Google Photos (gallery) the shots are being reported at various resolutions... most of the time not close to the 12MP that the sensor is supposed to capture the image at.
Regular lense, showing as 7.2MP --- 4000x1800 resolution (setting in Camera app is 12MP - 6.59mm)
Wide lense, showing 7.2MP --- 4000x1800 resolution (setting in Camera app is 12MP - 3.05mm)
Tele lense, showing 4.8MP --- 3264x1472 resolution (6.95mm)
Bokeh shots appear to be showing higher res, like 13MP.
Pictures taken from my old Pixel 2XL show consistently 12.2MP which I believe is the sensor size so I'm trying to figure out what setting may be affecting the resolution. File size are significantly smaller on the 7.2MP shots so I'm sure I'm losing some quality here.

Switch to 4:3.
You are shooting in 20:9 hence the lower resolution.

Perfect ty. I did select full looks like. Went back to 4:3 and seems to show the correct mp.
Sent from my IN2025 using Tapatalk

is there a way to fix it to provide 16:9?

S20+ Tele Image Resolution is Fake - It's a 1X optical!

Okay, I understand (what many others don't) that although the S20+ is listed as a 3X-30X zoom, the actual optical zoom is 1.08 so the focal length of the actual lens is basically the same as the non-zoom camera. This is unlike say the S10 5G which the actual lens of the camera is 2X. However Samsung makes up for this by using a 64MP sensor. This basically results in as good or better zoom shots up to about 5X zoom than a phone with a tele-camera with a 2X or 3X optical zoom lens but only a 12MP or 16MP sensor.
This is a bit astonishing considering the number of pixels decreased by the zoom factor squared when using digital zoom. So, the lowest zoom of the tele lens on the S20+ at 3X is essentially a 7MP sensor. 3 squared is 9. 64MP divided by 9 is 7.1MP. Compared to say the S10 5G which has a 2X optical zoom and 12MP sensor. So a 3X zoom for the S10 5G is a 1.5X digital zoom of the 2X optical. 1.5 squared = 2.25. 12MP/2.25 = 5.3MP. So you can see how the S20+ can keep up with other cameras with 2X or 3X optical zoom but only 12MP sensors. It's notable though that with 2X zoom, a camera with a 12MP sensor and a 2X optical zoom has a higher resolution image than the S20+ at 2X zoom since the S20+ doesn't have an optical zoom lens.
What's more interesting is the 64MP sensor on the S20+ has a 0.8um pixel pitch which means the sensor is roughly 9,500 pixels by 7,150. So at 3X zoom the sensor output is going to be digitally cropped to around 3,160 x 2,380. However no matter what zoom resolution you use, Samsung outputs a 4032x3024 size image, basically "faking" the resolution for all images taken at anything over 1X zoom. The file size goes down as the zoom goes up even though the image resolution stays at 4032x3024 because the JPEG compression algorithm basically can see it's a fake resolution (essentially a lower resolution source image interpolated up to a higher resolution.)
I'm not sure why manufacturers do this except for only from a customer satisfaction perspective as people would be complaining why their 10X zoom images are only 950 x 715 pixels. Yes, S20+ users, that is roughly the true resolution of a 10X zoom image from your phone. But consider on a 12MP sensor with 1X optical lens, that true cropped resolution is closer to 400x300!
The bottom line is the S20+ Tele Camera is basically equivalent in resolution to a phone with a 12MP camera with a 2.5X optical zoom because it's not actually an optical zoom lens. So Samsung's advertising it as a 3X "hybrid optic zoom" isn't a total lie, but 2.5x would be closer to accurate as far as the equivalent of an optical zoom on a 12MP sensor.
In reviewing tests images, to get the best images on this camera you just want to use one of the 3 cameras without manually zooming in. If you do zoom in on the tele camera, try to not go above 5X.

And no true optical zoom = no depth compression and distorted perspectives. Portraits look like crap. Fisheye effect still there, only mitigated by the fact that only the central part of the view is kept. For real portrait you need a phone with a real 2x or 3x optical zoom lens. I should have known better before buying...

Latoc said:
And no true optical zoom = no depth compression and distorted perspectives. Portraits look like crap. Fisheye effect still there, only mitigated by the fact that only the central part of the view is kept. For real portrait you need a phone with a real 2x or 3x optical zoom lens. I should have known better before buying...
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It's especially ridiculous considering the low-end S20 FE has 3X optical (although with only an 8MP sensor). I can only think the reason was to create more of a separation between the Plus and the Ultra to better justify the higher price of the Ultra with the 3X optical + 108MP sensor. They should have just put the 2X optical on it from last year's S10 5G instead of a ridiculous 1.08X.

jazee said:
It's especially ridiculous considering the low-end S20 FE has 3X optical (although with only an 8MP sensor). I can only think the reason was to create more of a separation between the Plus and the Ultra to better justify the higher price of the Ultra with the 3X optical + 108MP sensor. They should have just put the 2X optical on it from last year's S10 5G instead of a ridiculous 1.08X.
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I think the Ultra has a straight 5x zoom, like the P40 Pro. Useless for portrait (way too much zoom), so portraits are done on the main sensor with a crop to simulate a 2x zoom !
WTF !

Latoc said:
I think the Ultra has a straight 5x zoom, like the P40 Pro. Useless for portrait (way too much zoom), so portraits are done on the main sensor with a crop to simulate a 2x zoom !
WTF !
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We're both wrong, it's a 4X optical on the Ultra. I was confusing it with the 3x "hybrid optical" zoom spec on the plus. "Hybrid Optical?" that's just another label for "Forced Digital Zoom." At least on the Plus.

jazee said:
We're both wrong, it's a 4X optical on the Ultra. I was confusing it with the 3x "hybrid optical" zoom spec on the plus. "Hybrid Optical?" that's just another label for "Forced Digital Zoom." At least on the Plus.
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Samsung is not the only one, I just got myself a Sony Xperia 5 II, thinking the 3x zoom would make nice portraits, only to find out the quality was so bad it made me want to cry (900 euros). Upon searching for answers, I found out that it too is a crop, from a 20 mpx sensor this time...
At least if you get an iphone you have true zoom... I'm tempted. But boy do I hate iOS.

AFAIKl, the zoom lenses are used when the light conditions are optimal, also have an iphone and i can assure you, it also uses crop when the scene is underlit. So you are not missing on anything. But i can say, camera's on smartphone still suck (personal opinion: i use mirrorless for photography).

sushant1thakran said:
AFAIKl, the zoom lenses are used when the light conditions are optimal, also have an iphone and i can assure you, it also uses crop when the scene is underlit. So you are not missing on anything. But i can say, camera's on smartphone still suck (personal opinion: i use mirrorless for photography).
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Yes, I have an APS-C sensor camera for when I'm *planning* to take photos of important events, on trips, etc and I don't mind carrying it around (although it is jacket pocketable because it's an APS-C platform.) The problem is, in the practical reality of life, some of the best shots are very sporadic and unplanned and most people don't carry around their DSLR with them everywhere they go all day long like a woman carries a purse. I take way more photos on my phone than my camera because I always have it with me. So why not go for the best available, within your budget.
But yes, there is a whole younger generation that wouldn't even consider buying a digital camera anymore (except if they were going into the photography profession) as the camera's on their phones are more than adequate for snap shots they are just going to post on instagram, send via MMS, add it as a wallpaper or screensaver, or include in a Blog post and *maybe* print a 5x7 of.

The reason for their decision to do this might be to enable 8K video recording as the 8K functionality uses the 48mpx sensor.

malimukk said:
The reason for their decision to do this might be to enable 8K video recording as the 8K functionality uses the 48mpx sensor.
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That explains why the Ultra has a real zoom, as it can use the 108mpx sensor for 8K...
So we lost the zoom quality for portraits of our loved ones for a gimmick which almost nobody will use...
What a shame.

Latoc said:
That explains why the Ultra has a real zoom, as it can use the 108mpx sensor for 8K...
So we lost the zoom quality for portraits of our loved ones for a gimmick which almost nobody will use...
What a shame.
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I liked samsung, when they included ir blaster, heart rate sensor and all kind of weird af stuff.
Hated it when they removed expandable storage from s6 and note 5 series but after note 7. I feel that they are less likely to take risks and try to compete with 2nd class brands like oppo and vivo which only focuses on camera for consumers. (No offense to vivo as they also spend a lot on research which include the first for indisplay fingerprint scanner and 2k screens, but they only showcase that tech on mobile world congress).
And at that time, phones used to be fun, the price was relatively affordable $600 as compared to $1200.
There are phases of popularity of features like there was phase when companies are competing on who can produce the slimmest phone. But now the phase is related to camera's, before this, it was the user experience, which made samsung to ditch the TouchWiz and come up with one ui. I was there on touchwiz for s7 edge and one ui with s8.
Also, i dont know how tech reviewers are able to get the awesome photos using auto mode.
Out of 30 pics only 3-4 are good photos.