Database Users

Hero rushed out the door?

So after spending two days with the new official ROM I am dumbstruck that HTC let the Hero out the door as it was initially.
If you guys are like me you read online gadget blog reviews of new phones and you base your purchasing decisions to a lesser or greater extent on the reviews posted on these sites. The Hero received generally favorable reviews across the board BUT they were ALL tarred with the issue of the lagginess and unresponsiveness of the UI. Typical comments were "Sense UI is great but the hardware is not up to the task" etc. Hero was always compared to the iPhone and initially it was a more frustrating experience navigating the UI.
Clearly HTC have the ability to release software without these issues (new ROM proves that!) so why did they? I feel like they *really* hurt the sales and market potential of Hero and Sense UI by releasing an 'unfinished' product.
Can you imagine what Engadget's review (for instance) might have been had they reviewed a Hero with the new ROM?
I bought a Hero despite those reviews because I could see the potential in the handset but I know of others that steered clear because of the massive 'BUT...' at the end of most online reviews.
Its an opportunity missed I fear as the Hero is no longer a 'new' device.
I'm very glad that HTC have made my handset waaaaay nicer to use but seriously HTC... big, BIG ball drop!

Well... the Android phones are not really for the average Joes out there... they are for us techies and gadget lovers that love the freedom of doing cool and neat things with a phone.
We don't want to be tied up in an bondage game conducted/directed by a fruity company... and that is also why we choose a company we know.
Good enough?
You really thought we would feed a troll?

I honestly thought my post was a valid topic in a discussion forum about the HTC Hero.
@Thiesen
Wha?!? I really don't understand what your reply has got to do with my post. I think you've misunderstood the subject of my comments (perhaps if I had written in binary it might have been clearer?)
A broader acceptance of any platform is enabling and will benefit all users from 'techies' to 'average Joes'. Its not a matter of IF Android will become more mainstream but WHEN. I'm sorry if this makes you feel less special.
Troll indeed...

We're early adopters. We like to find bugs. We like to find glitches. And we take great pride in reporting them back to the devs and makers.
The average Joes just want things to work. They are not early adopters. They should get an iPhone then.

Thiesen said:
We're early adopters. We like to find bugs. We like to find glitches. And we take great pride in reporting them back to the devs and makers.
The average Joes just want things to work. They are not early adopters. They should get an iPhone then.
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I'm sorry mate but i think thats total rubbish, you wouldn't buy a car knowing it didn't work and happily waste your own time feeding back problems to the manufacture to bring it up to speed. You wouldn't go out and buy a brand new state of the art car and happily put a new engine in it would you knowing the one you had paid for was crap?
AND might I ad, the research and R+D that is put in to these items is all reflected in the price of them. If HTC were giving these phones away for beta testing or what not then fine, but for a £400 handset, i totally agree with the comments made by ShiroEd.
I have had no end of nokia handsets where i have thought nokia have been guilty of the same issue, releasing what could be classed as unfinished products.

Personally, I always though the tech sites overplayed the whole lag issue on the original ROM. Yes it was there, but in my experience the net effect was quite limited and in my case it didn't really limit my ability to use the device. I'm not saying that the issue didn't (or doesn't! ) exist, just that in my opinion it was acceptable for a device of this nature (please no flames from those who disagree).
This may be because I didn't load my home screens with tons of apps, and one of the first things I did do with my Hero was to remove the People and Weather widgets, and set up Peep appropriately.
The average Joes just want things to work. They are not early adopters. They should get an iPhone then.
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That would presume that the iPhone isn't possessed of the same issues that the Hero is/was. Google "iphone lag" and you'll see loads of posts complaining about lag on the iPhone, even for the latest OS and the 3GS.
In addition, you will probably find that the *vast* majority of people who've purchased the Hero have never even heard of XDA-Developers, and probably will never install another ROM. We are in the minority, not the "average joe" when it comes to Hero ownership!
Whilst I disagree with the OP, I don't think he was trolling.
Regards,
Dave

Thiesen said:
We're early adopters. We like to find bugs. We like to find glitches. And we take great pride in reporting them back to the devs and makers.
The average Joes just want things to work. They are not early adopters. They should get an iPhone then.
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Click to collapse
Agreed with crash. Thats just rubbish.
Entirely valid topic, and entirely valid point. Nothing remotely troll like about it.
Regardless of the people on this site, the Hero is definitely aimed at the average consumer, as a direct competitor in the iPhone market. Hence the multimedia, Facebook, etc.
Rushed to market I agree, but no idea why... Could just be lack of QA.
Many of the bugs reported here and elsewhere have been met with surprise by HTC, as if they really didnt know they existed. Do they not have a QA department that actually uses the phones in real life? Takes them home, plays with them, uses them all day and night to report the bugs?
Still, the update is great, the phone is flying now. If they could just sort out the crappy contact photo issue, the album caching, and the horrendous lack of bluetooth file transfer, I'd be a happy chap..

I think they shipped out the preview models and early review versions to people in the hope that they'd ignore any slowdown. Most of the review sites seem to have mentioned this in some form, saying that it can be a bit laggy but the final release could be good and the software shows potential - obviously it was never fixed for the first release.
To be fair, we're all early testers for the new HTC interface. If the Hero sells well and works well for everyone then we'll obviously be getting the same thing in future phones.
I don't think HTC is expecting any particular phone to be the next killer phone, they're just working on improvements with each new model.

While it does not make it ok... it seems to be the norm these days to get the product out and iron out bugs in a later release. As long as the quality is respectable, which I feel it was in this case, I can live with it. Particularly since the alternative would be to make do with buying an older model or waiting longer for the handset.
Zuber

Just give us an example of one single gadget that was not rushed out of the door!
The iPhone? Hellooo, the original iPhone didn't even have 3G. Have you ever tried GPRS speed (Go to wireless settings and pick "2G only"), not even funny. Talk about being rushed out of the door!

and apple offered a free upgrade to the 3g version when it was released! So yes may have been rushed out the door but no financial gain in the long run.

Was this a free upgrade that did not involve commuting to a contract ?
If not, then its not free...
Zuber

the handsets weren't free in the first place... you want to split hairs then fine.

The uninformed might think Apple were so caring and generous that they were willing to swap out the phones for "no financial gain"...
You can say many things about Apple, but generous isn't one of them
Zuber

Zuber said:
The uninformed might think Apple were so caring and generous that they were willing to swap out the phones for "no financial gain"...
You can say many things about Apple, but generous isn't one of them
Zuber
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Agreed However i thought it wasn't a bad deal as i have always thought the handsets were a rip off...coming to think of it the tariffs are aswell. I work for network rail and get 30% off all o2 shop tariffs and i still opted for the hero on orange which was a miles better deal!
(sorry for the partial hi-jack! )

crash_194 said:
and apple offered a free upgrade to the 3g version when it was released!
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Free upgrade! Just sign on for another 12 months of the 60+EUR/month (AT&T US) plan

Ok, I was one of the early adoptors of Hero. I got it right after its launch and I didnt really had too many complains about the device.
I never ever bought any HTC phone hoping it to be perfect. I always bought HTC knowing it will not be a perfect device out of box but community efforts will make it much much better device over time.
This applies to WinMo devices, and android. Why do we have xda here???

If you ask me, it's actually a great device. I've had far worse :/
I think people kinda underestimate how difficult it is to make good software. And how difficult it is to properly test stuff like this as well.
Next to that, it's always a comprimise. They want the software to be good, but also get the device out as fast as possible. The faster a (good) device is out there, the better that is for HTC in this case. It's a very competitive market, there just isn't enough time to keep working on the software until it's perfect.
The software should be 'good enough' and not perfect. I'm 100% sure they have a bugtracker or something else to keep track of major and minor bugs. At some point someone has to make a decision what will and won't be fixed before launch. And what shall be fixed right after launch.
For a new OS with a new UI like on the Hero I think they did very very well on the first release.
Now I fully agree with the OP, the lag/speed issue with the first ROM was not in HTC's favour. It was something that came up in every review, and people still believe that's a big Hero issue even while it's fixed. On the other hand, there might have been more important things that were fixed during development.
Usually speed improvements and tweaking stuff like that is something you do last. Other bugs and stuff has to be fixed first.

I don't think HTC rushed the phone out the door. The software was good enough so the phone functioned as a phone. It's a smartphone designed with the capability to upgrade the software. As long as the hardware is good quality, then you can work with the software and polish it as you go along.
I never really noticed the lag - it's only put to shame when you compare it with the new software. Look at the problems people are having with the iPhone 3.1 software release and you should be thankful that HTC have actually first delivered useable phone software and then improved it only a month after release. And HTC got some nice innovations to boot with the first release. They were perhaps a bit ambitious with the first release - where the phone did a lot of things when it first came out of sleep or switched screens, including the clock "flipping" animation.

RaptorRVL said:
If you ask me, it's actually a great device. I've had far worse :/
I think people kinda underestimate how difficult it is to make good software. And how difficult it is to properly test stuff like this as well.
Next to that, it's always a comprimise. They want the software to be good, but also get the device out as fast as possible. The faster a (good) device is out there, the better that is for HTC in this case. It's a very competitive market, there just isn't enough time to keep working on the software until it's perfect.
The software should be 'good enough' and not perfect. I'm 100% sure they have a bugtracker or something else to keep track of major and minor bugs. At some point someone has to make a decision what will and won't be fixed before launch. And what shall be fixed right after launch.
For a new OS with a new UI like on the Hero I think they did very very well on the first release.
Now I fully agree with the OP, the lag/speed issue with the first ROM was not in HTC's favour. It was something that came up in every review, and people still believe that's a big Hero issue even while it's fixed. On the other hand, there might have been more important things that were fixed during development.
Usually speed improvements and tweaking stuff like that is something you do last. Other bugs and stuff has to be fixed first.
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Some of these bugs are quite known more or less right out of the box, for instance logging into the market, you couldn't do this unless you actually entered your google credentials when you first setup the phone.
People are going to compare the Hero with the likes of the iPhone, it's the only comparable handset out on the market at the moment. But what i'm afraid of is the lack of future support for the Hero, as yet another handset is on the horizon from HTC. OK, maybe Apple have got it right in respect of only having to supporting one handset (and very simalar firmwares, agreed) which means more time focusing on bug fixes and upgrades.
I hope HTC do not put the Hero to the back of the pile and focus on new handsets

Samsung india froyo update

I just got an update from samsung india froyo update and it is:
'We don't have an eta on that'
now I regret I bought such an expensive phone from a company who don't have any clue about developing high end phone
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App

lol good morning

Then sell the device and buy an iPhone... you'll see what they will answer when you ask when to expect the next OS or the next bug release!

Its not like that. If they cannot do it in real time, at least let us the option to use god damn AOSP Android. I dont want Samsung's crap.
Next Android release is knocking on our doors, and they are delaying every month 2.2 release because they dont know know how to develop.
This is my first Samsung phone and will be my last. Next Android based will be Google's future release.

Well then I'm pretty sure you can find someone who will trade you their Nexus 1 for your SGS, because they also have issue... and also have delay on the fixes because they have to program it, test it, learn to deal with it, correct it, retest it like every other company. And when it's finaly release, they'll have something they forgot or that sliped...
I don't know if you are aware that programing is a real complicated process, you can't do it "real time" because the hardware is different, so you have to rebuilt the drivers, recompile every thing, test, correct, and on, and on...
Just as an example, Froyo SDK was "out" on 20th of may
Nexus one, wich is pretty much endorsed by google, had the update on 26th of june. It's more than a month for a device that's pretty much made by the same people and on wich it was develop, so basically they had thier hands on it since a longuer time.
Now imagine that another company has decided to change radicaly the hardware (CPU, GPU, partition types, etc.) and now have to rewrite everything to fit the new release, you can only assume it'll take a while.
Then, if you think it's not worth the wait, you should buy the most compatible hardware in the first place.

t1mman said:
Well then I'm pretty sure you can find someone who will trade you their Nexus 1 for your SGS, because they also have issue... and also have delay on the fixes because they have to program it, test it, learn to deal with it, correct it, retest it like every other company. And when it's finaly release, they'll have something they forgot or that sliped...
I don't know if you are aware that programing is a real complicated process, you can't do it "real time" because the hardware is different, so you have to rebuilt the drivers, recompile every thing, test, correct, and on, and on...
Just as an example, Froyo SDK was "out" on 20th of may
Nexus one, wich is pretty much endorsed by google, had the update on 26th of june. It's more than a month for a device that's pretty much made by the same people and on wich it was develop, so basically they had thier hands on it since a longuer time.
Now imagine that another company has decided to change radicaly the hardware (CPU, GPU, partition types, etc.) and now have to rewrite everything to fit the new release, you can only assume it'll take a while.
Then, if you think it's not worth the wait, you should buy the most compatible hardware in the first place.
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Finally someone who gets it seriously , these people should stop fooling theirselves.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App

t1mman said:
Well then I'm pretty sure you can find someone who will trade you their Nexus 1 for your SGS, because they also have issue... and also have delay on the fixes because they have to program it, test it, learn to deal with it, correct it, retest it like every other company. And when it's finaly release, they'll have something they forgot or that sliped...
I don't know if you are aware that programing is a real complicated process, you can't do it "real time" because the hardware is different, so you have to rebuilt the drivers, recompile every thing, test, correct, and on, and on...
Just as an example, Froyo SDK was "out" on 20th of may
Nexus one, wich is pretty much endorsed by google, had the update on 26th of june. It's more than a month for a device that's pretty much made by the same people and on wich it was develop, so basically they had thier hands on it since a longuer time.
Now imagine that another company has decided to change radicaly the hardware (CPU, GPU, partition types, etc.) and now have to rewrite everything to fit the new release, you can only assume it'll take a while.
Then, if you think it's not worth the wait, you should buy the most compatible hardware in the first place.
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Well, I do work in an corporate IT env, and I know how things like dev, QA, UAT, etc works. At least within my Company a dead line has to be met and it is met. If that release has problems, a QuickFix may be provided to fix it.
My main problem IS the delay itself. First thing Samsung should officially announce a released date. This for poor end users not waiting in vane for something that MIGHT make things work better (most probably not). With 5mil devices sold, Samsung should understand that keeping end users informed is the way to go for future profits. At least half of my friends with SGS are disappointed with software quality and waiting eagerly for something better. Nor me or them will by another Samsung device ever.
Anyway, I dont want a flame. This my opinion.

Ladduro said:
First thing Samsung should officially announce a released date.
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I got to here and stopped reading. This sentence is enough proof you don't really know how to deal with customer relationships. It's obvious they have problems with their builds and are trying to fix it. If they put a solid release date on 2.2 and not deliver it, they would need to do a lot more damage control. If they actually put a solid release date and delay the release, you'd get this kind of thread every 5 seconds on this forum. It's annoying as it is, and anymore would probably make this forum literally unusable with people whining and crying. Don't like the phone? Sell it. It's as simple as that.

thedauntlessone said:
Don't like the phone? Sell it. It's as simple as that.
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Why not just tell Samsung to buy back the phone, so the consumer can get all their money back? Selling a used phone on the open market, usually means the consumer will not get back what they had paid originally.
I feel the reason people want Froyo so bad is because Froyo is supposed to fix a lot of the bugs in the SGS; such as the GPS not working correctly. I also think the reason Samsung keeps pushing back the Froyo release is because they're having problems fixing hardware faults with software. Software fixes can only do so much, if the hardware isn't working properly.

Ladduro said:
Well, I do work in an corporate IT env, and I know how things like dev, QA, UAT, etc works. At least within my Company a dead line has to be met and it is met. If that release has problems, a QuickFix may be provided to fix it.
My main problem IS the delay itself. First thing Samsung should officially announce a released date. This for poor end users not waiting in vane for something that MIGHT make things work better (most probably not). With 5mil devices sold, Samsung should understand that keeping end users informed is the way to go for future profits. At least half of my friends with SGS are disappointed with software quality and waiting eagerly for something better. Nor me or them will by another Samsung device ever.
.
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So in other words, release garbage which might cause serious issues because the deadline is more important than the quality of the product? It's often pretty obvious to identify which software development companies do that, because often, their products are either incredibly slow moving, or buggy.
Also, that works with a lot of PC software, but on mobile phones, people SERIOUSLY freak when their phone wont boot. If an Application is buggy, you can just upgrade it, but it isn't as easy on a mobile. Development companies should show previews and provide expected shipping dates, but should only announce the exact date when it can be known (near end of testing).
By the way, deadlines are named appropriately I feel. Passengers on a plane might complain when they are late, but what they don't realise is that the alternative's often weren't worth the risk. I'll also remind you "what a customer thinks they want, may not be what they want". In this case, you think you want froyo (for the sake of froyo), but what you actually want is a more usable phone OS. If you can't rely on your phone to work well enough to receive calls without your knowledge, whats the point?

t1mman said:
Well then I'm pretty sure you can find someone who will trade you their Nexus 1 for your SGS, because they also have issue... and also have delay on the fixes because they have to program it, test it, learn to deal with it, correct it, retest it like every other company. And when it's finaly release, they'll have something they forgot or that sliped...
I don't know if you are aware that programing is a real complicated process, you can't do it "real time" because the hardware is different, so you have to rebuilt the drivers, recompile every thing, test, correct, and on, and on...
Just as an example, Froyo SDK was "out" on 20th of may
Nexus one, wich is pretty much endorsed by google, had the update on 26th of june. It's more than a month for a device that's pretty much made by the same people and on wich it was develop, so basically they had thier hands on it since a longuer time.
Now imagine that another company has decided to change radicaly the hardware (CPU, GPU, partition types, etc.) and now have to rewrite everything to fit the new release, you can only assume it'll take a while.
Then, if you think it's not worth the wait, you should buy the most compatible hardware in the first place.
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Click to collapse
Yes I am aware of the complex software development process as I am in software development field for more than a decade.
I am not happy because samsung keep changing their froyo release dates and now they dont have an ETA.
That is what is bothering me. I expect them to communicate more clearly, so that we know what to expect. I dont expect lies after lies from samsung.

t1mman said:
Then sell the device and buy an iPhone... you'll see what they will answer when you ask when to expect the next OS or the next bug release!
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That is exactly the reason I did not get an iPhone and I will never get an iPhone

Brand New Anandtech Review of the Dell Venue Pro

Check out Anandtech's review of the DVP. They do a good job comparing it against 3 other Windows Phone 7 devices, 3 Android phones, and the iPhone4. Overall, they give high marks to it.
Check it out here: http://ow.ly/4e0NJ

How come these reviewers never see the obvious issues so many people have? Is dell oaying them off?

efjay said:
How come these reviewers never see the obvious issues so many people have? Is dell oaying them off?
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Assuming you mean the stability issues, I wouldn't be surprised if Dell is hand picking devices sent to reviewers.
Also typically reviewers don't use a device for anywhere near the amount of time an owner would, so they don't see some of the more subtle flaws (eg flaky Bluetooth).

pjfan75 said:
Assuming you mean the stability issues, I wouldn't be surprised if Dell is hand picking devices sent to reviewers.
Also typically reviewers don't use a device for anywhere near the amount of time an owner would, so they don't see some of the more subtle flaws (eg flaky Bluetooth).
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The reviewer mentions he used the phone for a month, hard to believe he didnt get one of those frequent lockups in that time. At least someone posted a link to the Dell forums that details the problems. Just insane that dell continues to sell this phone and seem in no hurry to fix the problems, They would have so many satisfied customers extholling the virtues of this phone, yet they just still wont come out and say when the fix is coming, best they've said is after the MS update, and who knows when that will come to this phone.

efjay said:
The reviewer mentions he used the phone for a month, hard to believe he didnt get one of those frequent lockups in that time. At least someone posted a link to the Dell forums that details the problems. Just insane that dell continues to sell this phone and seem in no hurry to fix the problems, They would have so many satisfied customers extholling the virtues of this phone, yet they just still wont come out and say when the fix is coming, best they've said is after the MS update, and who knows when that will come to this phone.
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Not to belabor the point, but many of us have had generally stable phones. The stability problem is a real problem for many as well (and apparently mostly limited to 16GB models), but it's quite possible that the reviewed phone was not one of the bad ones.

pjfan75 said:
Not to belabor the point, but many of us have had generally stable phones. The stability problem is a real problem for many as well (and apparently mostly limited to 16GB models), but it's quite possible that the reviewed phone was not one of the bad ones.
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Who knows what the percentage of faulty phones is, its certainly enough for dell to have worked on a patch for it. I would wager that those with functioning phones are in the minority though.

efjay said:
The reviewer mentions he used the phone for a month, hard to believe he didnt get one of those frequent lockups in that time. At least someone posted a link to the Dell forums that details the problems. Just insane that dell continues to sell this phone and seem in no hurry to fix the problems, They would have so many satisfied customers extholling the virtues of this phone, yet they just still wont come out and say when the fix is coming, best they've said is after the MS update, and who knows when that will come to this phone.
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Click to collapse
The problem isn't really Dell's fault alone (depending on where the root of the problem lies). The patch coming with the NoDo update is going to upgrade the firmware and fix some issues. The problem is Dell can't patch the firmware without an OS update from Microsoft. So we are left waiting longer than I'm sure even Dell wants.
They can't say a date because Microsoft chooses when to push NoDo after OEMs and Carriers sign off on it.
efjay said:
Who knows what the percentage of faulty phones is, its certainly enough for dell to have worked on a patch for it. I would wager that those with functioning phones are in the minority though.
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Yea I wonder too what causes the lockups that so many get. I own three 16GB DVPs and a bud of mine owns two. We have only had the lockup fiasco on one, his. The rest seem to be working like champs.
It is impossible for us to try and guesstimate how many have problems though. Dell has those numbers and they won't share.
If the problem is the SD cards though they need to just do a recall. Swap the cards and call it a day.

Count me among the few with a very stable 8GB device. I was worried that this review would mirror the others that omitted in depth camera reviews, but he caught the issues that I have. You really have to a) have lots of light, b) make sure there is no smudge on your camera lens and c) somehow keep the phone perfectly steady during the autofocus and shutter release despite that awkward button. If you do all those things, you actually get very nice photos. Go figure.
I've had the phone a little over a week. Wireless is always enabled and usually connected. I've had zero issues with the marketplace. The Facebook app has closed 2 or 3 times unexpectedly, one game crashed when I had an awesome score, and twice I've had to hold the power button in to shut down from a frozen black screen. I've been using the phone a lot, installing lots of apps and using them. Generally I'm trying to make it do a lot when I get it freeze up (trying some new app that seems slow and CPU intensive). So I'm not unhappy with the stability.

I'd not blindly follow a review but these reviews certainly provide some idea about wat to expect..
In many countries especially like mine its not easy to find a retailer who keeps all these high phones on display or just for customers to fiddle around with.
U can just greedily look at them sitting in sealed boxes. I find these reviews helpful especially the video reviews with comparison with other devices in terms of physical aspects. Though I really dislike the videos with comparisons like ' which phone launches a web browser or a site first.'
As far as dvp's stability issues are concerned I am more than happy with it.
WP 7 is very young n still is a very stable OS. I remember my days when my blueangel running wm2003 used to hard reset every fortnight n all data used to get lost..
WP 7 will improve eventually n so will WP 7 devices along with our dear DVP
Sent from my HD7 T9292 using Board Express

Froyogate page

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Froyogate/112615255487997
Just started this page, like it if you do. I will update tomorrow. I know it wont do much, but it makes me feel better. If anyone wants to help, PM me here or on Facebook.

Why worry about this when you see things progressing? You're wasting your time, watch development and you will be happier than you would be with stock froyo anyway.

I see things progressing because off our devs, not because of verizon or samsung. I'm tired of big business getting away with anything they want. I get your point, but I'm still trying to get answers.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA Premium App

Quite frankly, no one will care about a Facebook page. Even if everyone on XDA with a Fascinate liked it, it still wouldn't be anywhere near an impressive number.
And Verizon/Samsung haven't really 'lied' to us (not counting their lower level reps, but no one should be trusting them anyways), they've never officially promised any sort of release date AFAIK... meaning long as they eventually release it, they'll have kept their promise (things like 'soon' are totally subjective, which is why they say them).
Verizon/Samsung have, simply put, just given us terrible support. We're low priority for them- we're basically an offbrand (i.e. not a Droid) phone, with a relatively small userbase. We're small fish in a big sea. Taken on top of Verizon & Samsungs already poor support, it really shouldn't be a surprise to us that we're still waiting for Froyo (unfortunately that's a lot easier to realize in retrospect... if I'd realized it back then, I'd have likely gone with the Incredible).

It is so sad that we are considered "not a droid". The one thing that attracted me to my Fascinate was the nice hardware, sweet screen, and the Android OS. I don't know what I would do without the devs around here. It's a shame that we have been swept under the rug by Samsung and VZW.
Sent from my ComaVolted Fascinate running SC 2.9.2

KitsuneKnight said:
Quite frankly, no one will care about a Facebook page. Even if everyone on XDA with a Fascinate liked it, it still wouldn't be anywhere near an impressive number.
And Verizon/Samsung haven't really 'lied' to us (not counting their lower level reps, but no one should be trusting them anyways), they've never officially promised any sort of release date AFAIK... meaning long as they eventually release it, they'll have kept their promise (things like 'soon' are totally subjective, which is why they say them).
Verizon/Samsung have, simply put, just given us terrible support. We're low priority for them- we're basically an offbrand (i.e. not a Droid) phone, with a relatively small userbase. We're small fish in a big sea. Taken on top of Verizon & Samsungs already poor support, it really shouldn't be a surprise to us that we're still waiting for Froyo (unfortunately that's a lot easier to realize in retrospect... if I'd realized it back then, I'd have likely gone with the Incredible).
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Agreed, but if we never take any action, the corportations will continue as usual and we will get even less actions. Corporations already run this country. Its not we the people anymore, its whatever corporate america buys in our congress.

Just like it! Is that a lot to ask?

Just vote with your wallet and don't buy samsung phones anymore.
Also, always make it a habite to tell anyone shopping for a phone about how bad samsung is and why they shouldn't buy a samsung phone.
It's amazing how many people are complaining about froyo, yet they get really excited when they hear about the Galaxy S 2 that's coming out soon!!!!

modus81 said:
Just vote with your wallet and don't buy samsung phones anymore.
Also, always make it a habite to tell anyone shopping for a phone about how bad samsung is and why they shouldn't buy a samsung phone.
It's amazing how many people are complaining about froyo, yet they get really excited when they hear about the Galaxy S 2 that's coming out soon!!!!
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Click to collapse
I will NEVER buy another samsung phone, Eff the Galaxy S2. It's too bad, the fascinate has some great qualities, but I refuse to give money to someone who doesn't care. I was burnt once, not gonna get me again. I'm debating if I leave Verizon, quite honestly.
I completely agree with you about voting with your wallet!

I will always argue that you should make your decisions based on the hardware. Not the software, not the manufacturer, not the carrier. Hardware will always win out, and Samsung makes great hardware.

Kevin Gossett said:
I will always argue that you should make your decisions based on the hardware. Not the software, not the manufacturer, not the carrier. Hardware will always win out, and Samsung makes great hardware.
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I used to say the same thing, based upon past experience with numerous WinMo phones.
I no longer agree. Not in the least. I had a Samsung WinMo, but my last two WinMo phones were HTC. Compared to this Samsung.....
a) The Samsung pulls 300ma max from the PC USB port. That is fine. It only pulls 650ma max from a 5 volt adapter. The phone can consume well over 650ma to operate as a car GPS (screen bright, downloading map data, etc). So, the battery can rather quickly die even plugged into a high rate charger in the car. I have never seen an HTC phone do that. If the operating current goes up, the HTC pulls more current from the charger. Usually up to about 1 amp. So if it is plugged into a high rate charger, the HTC phones will never drain the battery even in the worst conditions. Charge rate FAIL.
b) In total darkness, it is too bright. In bright sun, it is too dim. You can go to manual mode, and adjust to a good level, but that misses the point of having the AUTO sensor... Auto brightness adjust FAIL.
c) On my phone, when used for a long while on charge at high brightness (car again), the four bottom buttons appear to be pressed randomly. The phone becomes a worthless brick. According to Verizon, this is fairly normal for the generated heat and there isn't anything I can do but not use it when it is charging. FAIL button sensor sensitivity. (though I believe this is just my phone being defective, and I can't get it fixed)
d) Charge plug. Who designed that piece of garbage. Pretty much every plug I have, and I have a lot of them, had to be cut up in the front side to allow it to fully seat in the Samsung jack. FAIL plug placement.
e) No notification LED. What??? FAIL.
f) Minor items like the mediocre loudspeaker placement, no camera button, and slippery back cover add up to another FAIL IMHO.
I used to think highly of Samsung devices from my past experience. This device has tarnished that image. I would only recommend this phone to someone because I thought they might want to buy this one that I have.

So, I sent an email to verizon, and this is what I got....
Good afternoon Mr. ****,
Thank you for contacting Verizon Wireless through our website. My name is Nicholas and resolving your issue is my top priority. I sincerely apologize that you are dissatisfied with the new froyo software update not being available for the Samsung Fascinate. I can recognize the importance in having the newest, most sophisticated software when purchasing new equipment. Despite all, I'm eager to assist with all of your concerns today.
Mr. *****, I can understand your urgency in regards to this matter. However, before new software is released, it must be approved by the manufacturer ( Samsung ) and Verizon Wireless. Therefore, based on this process I'm unable to provide a definitive answer as to when the froyo software update will be available for the Fascinate. This information is not readily available for the public. Nonetheless, if or when it becomes available you will receive a text on the handset prompting you to update your phone.
Additionally, based on your inconvenience I've issued a $ 50.00 courtesy credit on the account. The total credit amount of ( $ 50.00) , will appear on your next billing statement, ( Apr. 26, 2011 ), and will include an additional adjustment for taxes if applicable. You can check your revised balance immediately by dialing from you wireless device, # BAL and the SEND button. You will be connected with an automated system which will relay your account balance as a free text message to your wireless phone. You may also continue to listen and follow the voice prompts to receive the information airtime-free. You will be provided with the amount and date of your most recent payment, as well as your current balance due.
Lastly, I am also pleased to offer you the option of obtaining a new device with the software update currently, if it doesn't become available for the Fascinate. This offer will not extend your contract nor upgrade date. If you wish to take advantage of this option, you may contact me directly at ( 803 ) 231 - 1825 / Mon - Fri / 2:30pm. - 11:00pm. For your added convenience, below I've listed a link that includes our available device line - up. I hope you find this information to be beneficial:
So it does pay to continue to fight the good fight! I suggest you ALL email verizon and let them know your unhappy!!!

My old Samsung dumb-phone was wonderful. I took crap care of it, and it took a beating (I'd frequently toss it), I'd never give a single concern for maintaining the battery, it got great signal pretty much everywhere (when I went to the woods with a bunch of people, the people on AT&T would have a paper weight, the other people on Verizon would have occasional signal, and I'd have consistent, albeit poor, signal), and I'd easily go a week on a charge.
Occasionally I'd get hit by a software bug, like once ever several months, but over the several years I had the phone (5+ I think?), those were quite few in number.
My Fascinate, on the other hand, other than the screen the hardware seems moderate at best. The processor/GPU don't matter a lot long as they're at least as good as what 'most people' have, since generally programs are designed to be used on the more common phones. Now the GPU could have been leveraged on Gingerbread, but, we don't really have Gingerbread, although people like PK are working on it.
There's also 'only' 384 MBs of usable RAM in the phone, meaning less apps can be kept asleep in the background, causing apps to have to save their state & be restarted more often (IIRC, all the other Galaxy S phones have 512 usable!).
Then there's the GPS. It was flat out broken when Samsung released this phone, and I still have a horrible GPS- the other day it took ~25 minutes for the GPS to lock (even after downloading AGPS data, and getting the no help that cellular triangulation and wifi location services provides), just in time for us to miss the turn to our destination! (resulting in everyone agreeing that my phone "sucked").
No notification LED... we've had to work around that with 'No LED' and BLN- hardly ideal solutions... more like clever hacks. 802.11N also doesn't support the 5Ghz band, apparently... lovely. The battery life is also nothing to write home about. And there's quite a number of other shortcomings with this phone's hardware.
Is the Fascinate's hardware horrible? No, with the exception of the screen (which is quite good), most of it's around par, some above, some below. But the Fascinate's problem is it's crippled by horrible software! Our Devs will fix that, you say? So how's that CM7 working for you? MIUI? AOSP? Your options, at this point, are either use a hacked up Samsung ROM, or lose various hardware support. Is it because our devs suck? Hell no, they've long since shown they're damn good at what they do- but even so they can only do so much at a time. Take the best hardware in the world, but put **** software on it, and you've got ****. Bad software will ruin any hardware.
Good software on bad hardware, though, can at least make the hardware bearable. Next time, I'm picking my phone based off which actually has a fully custom ROMs ported to it, like MIUI or CyanogenMod- that should be a good indicator of how good the software support should be- then I'll go by hardware.
Edit: New post while I was writing... Does "obtaining a new device" mean, "trade in for a phone with Froyo"? If so... that's quite surprising, and it'd be interesting exactly what phones are available for that. Although, at this point, I just feel like taking it until my renewal comes around- all the phones are going to be far superior by then, and, with any luck, this sort of BS will have been reined in by Google.

Im going to call tomorrow and see what that means....but its a start. 50 bucks off my bill is nice!

modus81 said:
Just vote with your wallet and don't buy samsung phones anymore.
Also, always make it a habite to tell anyone shopping for a phone about how bad samsung is and why they shouldn't buy a samsung phone.
It's amazing how many people are complaining about froyo, yet they get really excited when they hear about the Galaxy S 2 that's coming out soon!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but look at the specs on the galaxy S2, at least here in america its gonna have the samsung Exynos chip that is a 1.2 Ghz Dual Core, 1 GB of RAM a super AMOLED+ screen and does FULL HD VIDEO </Sarcasm>
sounds nice but knowing samsung it won't receive any support i've only had this phone since thursday and i really, really don't like it and wish that even with the locked bootloader i had gone with the droid X simply because i'd like to have gingerbread instead of eclair, though putting the miui alpha on it sorta make the fascinate worth while

420fan said:
So, I sent an email to verizon, and this is what I got....
Good afternoon Mr. ****,
Thank you for contacting Verizon Wireless through our website. My name is Nicholas and resolving your issue is my top priority. I sincerely apologize that you are dissatisfied with the new froyo software update not being available for the Samsung Fascinate. I can recognize the importance in having the newest, most sophisticated software when purchasing new equipment. Despite all, I'm eager to assist with all of your concerns today.
Mr. *****, I can understand your urgency in regards to this matter. However, before new software is released, it must be approved by the manufacturer ( Samsung ) and Verizon Wireless. Therefore, based on this process I'm unable to provide a definitive answer as to when the froyo software update will be available for the Fascinate. This information is not readily available for the public. Nonetheless, if or when it becomes available you will receive a text on the handset prompting you to update your phone.
Additionally, based on your inconvenience I've issued a $ 50.00 courtesy credit on the account. The total credit amount of ( $ 50.00) , will appear on your next billing statement, ( Apr. 26, 2011 ), and will include an additional adjustment for taxes if applicable. You can check your revised balance immediately by dialing from you wireless device, # BAL and the SEND button. You will be connected with an automated system which will relay your account balance as a free text message to your wireless phone. You may also continue to listen and follow the voice prompts to receive the information airtime-free. You will be provided with the amount and date of your most recent payment, as well as your current balance due.
Lastly, I am also pleased to offer you the option of obtaining a new device with the software update currently, if it doesn't become available for the Fascinate. This offer will not extend your contract nor upgrade date. If you wish to take advantage of this option, you may contact me directly at ( 803 ) 231 - 1825 / Mon - Fri / 2:30pm. - 11:00pm. For your added convenience, below I've listed a link that includes our available device line - up. I hope you find this information to be beneficial:
So it does pay to continue to fight the good fight! I suggest you ALL email verizon and let them know your unhappy!!!
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Click to collapse
If you dont mind me asking, what all was in your email? It may be beneficial to know the way you went about contacting them if there are those (like myself wishing to get a tbolt lol) that want to go this route. Also what email address did you send the complaint to?

Neuman.Tim said:
If you dont mind me asking, what all was in your email? It may be beneficial to know the way you went about contacting them if there are those (like myself wishing to get a tbolt lol) that want to go this route. Also what email address did you send the complaint to?
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Click to collapse
yea, I emailed and they called me back. They offered to give me a new phone line instead... I would also have to pay for another phone... Bogus... What did you tell them?

I've looked for the email on yhier website and all and I can't find it. Anyone got a quick link to it?
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA Premium App

http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/contact/index.jsp
is the page I used.
Email I sent
Why am I still waiting for my fascinate to be updated to froyo? All the other galaxy S phones have received it, Samsung has given you the code, now I am curious as to why we still don't have it. I was told when I purchased the phone that it would be 'soon'. I did a lot of research and am tired of being lied to by your company. Your contract states that I can't lie to you, but your are not held responsible for what an agent tells me. WTF is that?? You will probably loose my business when my contract is up, and maybe even before if I can sell this phone. Why won't you take care of your existing customers? Too busy trying to sell 4G when its not even in my area. I was told 'soon' about that too! I understand that the email I will get will say Im sorry for the delay, but we are working hard at it....BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!!

420fan said:
I see things progressing because off our devs, not because of verizon or samsung. I'm tired of big business getting away with anything they want. I get your point, but I'm still trying to get answers.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA Premium App
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I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. While it's very true that our devs are to be applauded for their efforts, the very reason that we have working Froyo roms like SuperClean (aside from jt's AOSP, which still is lacking a few features) is because of leaked builds from Samsung/Verizon. Our devs did not make those, only released them and cleaned them up a bit. We have three leaked builds total now, so there is no longer any basis upon which to claim that the official update will not be released. They would not be putting that much work into builds for this phone if they did not intend to release it once it's complete. Also, I think we should be grateful that they are taking the time to properly fix issues like GPS, which the new radio does, instead of rushing a new release with more bugs.
I too am disappointed at the time it's taking for them to get this release out, but it is clearly coming, and soon, if the last leak is any evidence at all, so I think we all just need to remain patient for a little bit longer. However, I do have one question. We have had working Froyo roms here for quite some time now. If you're posting here on XDA, I can only assume you're interested in modifying your phone, as opposed to leaving it stock, since that is, after all, what XDA is all about. If that is true, why are you still complaining about the lack of official release? Just install SuperClean or your rom of choice and move on.
Sent from XDA Premium on my Super Clean Fascinate

Kudos for WMPoweruser calling out Dell

http://wmpoweruser.com/editorial-microsoft-intervene-with-dell-now/
I can't thank them enough for not letting Dell off the hook. You know damn well that Dell is just trying to wait this thing out until it would be an outdated device anyhow and most of us just move on without them having to repair all these units.
As far as Dell wanting to refund some of us 50% of what we are paying (100% if you ask them, but it is 50% if you do the math) they should also have to buy us out of our mobile contracts, for those that signed a brand new contract in order to get this phone. I completely changed carriers to T-Mobile to get this device. Without the device I would have gone somewhere else. In the end, I feel these dead-beats (Dell board members in latin terms) owe me close to $1000 for this entire mess, in order to put me back in the same exact situation I was in before I got suckered into buying one of these lemons.

I second that and lets wait for a response from Dell. Can you also tip wpcenteral and engadget on the same.

notebookgrail said:
I second that and lets wait for a response from Dell. Can you also tip wpcenteral and engadget on the same.
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I have tipped engadget and gizmodo about 4 times each on this issue and that both don't seem to care.

I agree, this is a good idea...

missionsparta said:
I have tipped engadget and gizmodo about 4 times each on this issue and that both don't seem to care.
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I think wmpoweruser is the only blog that will take this up, that's more their style to be confrontational. I tipped wpcentral but they seem too close to MS sources and wont want to rock the boat so they probably wont carry this. engadget and gizmodo's lack of response is not surprising since they are both pro-apple sites.

efjay said:
Iengadget and gizmodo's lack of response is not surprising since they are both pro-apple sites.
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Which is exactly why I thought they would jump all over this and use this to report why Microsoft's business structure of relying on third parties to produce your hardware leaves you at their mercy.

I sent it off to thisismynext.com, see if they will pick it up for something relating to customer service and business partnerships.

I doubt anyone other than WMPoweruser will report it. The simple reason is that WMPU doesn't get any demo units/juicy stuff from Companies/MFG'rs. All the rest have a big parent company who has close relation with big companies and don't want to disturb the news supply chain. They don't have the balls to even speak-up unless its a widespread issue where they get to cover-up their ass.

missionsparta said:
I can't thank them enough for not letting Dell off the hook. You know damn well that Dell is just trying to wait this thing out until it would be an outdated device anyhow and most of us just move on without them having to repair all these units.
As far as Dell wanting to refund some of us 50% of what we are paying (100% if you ask them, but it is 50% if you do the math) they should also have to buy us out of our mobile contracts, for those that signed a brand new contract in order to get this phone. I completely changed carriers to T-Mobile to get this device. Without the device I would have gone somewhere else. In the end, I feel these dead-beats (Dell board members in latin terms) owe me close to $1000 for this entire mess, in order to put me back in the same exact situation I was in before I got suckered into buying one of these lemons.
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Looks like Dell has responded (or responded by its absence at the MS media party today)... they are stepping away from the consumer business.

Homedesigner said:
Looks like Dell has responded (or responded by its absence at the MS media party today)... they are stepping away from the consumer business.
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Click to collapse
I would not go that far. From personal experience with MS and Dell , future mango testing cannot be done until the final firmware fix is in. The primary concern, so I'm told, is the reporting of memory. Without the final fix in place, they cannot test mango. My guess is that Dell has not provided a date yet. I know mango runs well on the VP with the test build of the firmware. It runs real well. I can't wait. If you look at the MS update about Dell, the book is not closed.
Update: Dell is not off the list of WP7 hardware manufacturers. Microsoft told us that the Round Rock gang simply isn't one of the "partners ready to go" do the Mango tango right now

I'm not looking for anything beyond mango, but seeing as how the at&t version just came out it would be really disheartening to not get mango.
Really hope you are right. I'm cautiously optimistic .

venelar said:
I'm not looking for anything beyond mango, but seeing as how the at&t version just came out it would be really disheartening to not get mango.
Really hope you are right. I'm cautiously optimistic .
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Its taking this long to get a fix in place for existing phones, if they cant get it done I wont hold out hope for Mango if I were you. You are much better off just selling the phone then (if you can) and getting one from an OEM who has more experience making smartphones. For me if the DVP gets Mango is irrelevant as I will be importing the first Nokia WP7 handset I can, my only concern is using a crash-prone handset for 6 more months, not sure my sanity would be preserved after that much mental torture!

efjay said:
Its taking this long to get a fix in place for existing phones, if they cant get it done I wont hold out hope for Mango if I were you. You are much better off just selling the phone then (if you can) and getting one from an OEM who has more experience making smartphones. For me if the DVP gets Mango is irrelevant as I will be importing the first Nokia WP7 handset I can, my only concern is using a crash-prone handset for 6 more months, not sure my sanity would be preserved after that much mental torture!
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Click to collapse
...and this is it in a nutshell. All future updates are surely at risk, without the firmware update. though I personally think it will come, its easy for me to say because I'm one of the lucky ones with few problems with the phone. Until the update is out and working.....Mango is off the table for everyone because it does not offer the firmware fix...only Dell can do that

While a hand full of you have working devices; I have had 5 and all have been complete garbage. None of them can run day one WinMo7 OS for more than 10 minutes tops, without being a complete disaster. In all honesty, I can't see any of the 5 I have had running Mango without going into cardiac arrest.