Related
Okie dokie, simple plan to directly compare clean ROMs from the cooks without opinions or bias.
I believe the general idea was to either add a new table to the Wiki or modify the existing tables in the ROMs section, to display standardised benchmark result, ie all from the same version following a set of instructions
those might be, flash ROM, hard reset, install bench mark programs, softrest, softrest run benches with radio on/off
Could be expanded to include basic battery life i dont think having call time / sms count would be helpful as its too unpredictable. but perhaps standby time and or wifi/bluetooth turned on but not connected.
I dont think its about real world tests since we cant have opinions, its a simple OS comparison.
course, for all i know there will be almost nothing between any of them making it redundant so this is why im making this thread, to talk it out and see if its worth while.
and you are starting this "new" thread as a result of my ideea and proposal
wouldn't have been nice to mention?
Benchmarking will give you a very incomplete picture of how a rom is actually going to perform, and therefore will be a virtually worthless use of your time. The real performance of a rom is gonna very significantly based on what software you use, which versions of the software you use, and sometimes even the order in which you install it. There is no consistent reliable benchmarking tool that i have seen as any useful indicator of actual speed of a rom.
The best way to find out about what rom will suit your needs is to read the frist couple posts, then kinda browse through the thread to see which bugs people are posting most regularly. When i was testing the WM6.5 roms, I had no issues with the fact that some people had exchange issues, because I was not having them, but eventually the fact that the notifications weren't working correctly caused me to change to something else. I tried another rom with some TP2 features, and generally liked it, but MyPhone didn't work correctly on that roms for whatever reason.
The point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as an unbiased benchmarking, because if we only test them all with no software installed, running clean then you're gonna find that almost all roms score similarly. Even more to the point, I simply have never seen a benchmarking program which had results which were indicative of any real world performance, and as such, I have disregarded the use of them entirely.
If you're happy with the rom you're on, then keep it. If not then read a few threads, see what is out there and then based on a little bit of research try one. If you don't like it, then try another one or even go back to the old one.
noris08 said:
and you are starting this "new" thread as a result of my ideea and proposal
wouldn't have been nice to mention?
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Click to collapse
Sorry, looking after my 3 year old today, pulling my hair out, damn cheeky monkey!but yes totally based on your idea, just wanted to make the link in the old post before it got the chop ill edit the original post in a min
scotchua said:
Benchmarking will give you a very incomplete picture of how a rom is actually going to perform, and therefore will be a virtually worthless use of your time. The real performance of a rom is gonna very significantly based on what software you use, which versions of the software you use, and sometimes even the order in which you install it. There is no consistent reliable benchmarking tool that i have seen as any useful indicator of actual speed of a rom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
amen to that!
just making a little bit of reading and got scared by the possibility of threads about "witch ROM is better" beeing aloud
this is going to end badly as i already know that from the trinity forum and from the diamond forum. the forum is going to be cluttered only because a few lazy sobs are not ready to spend a few moments reading the ROM's threads and drawing their own conclusions. it is enough to read the first page, one of every 3 pages and the last one in a ROM thread to understand what is all about.
not only that but when the thread is going to be too long some smart ass is going to open another (he has no time to read a l l those pages)...and than another. please, stop the madness
scotchua said:
The real performance of a rom is gonna very significantly based on what software you use, which versions of the software you use, and sometimes even the order in which you install it. There is no consistent reliable benchmarking tool that i have seen as any useful indicator of actual speed of a rom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, to compare ROMs completely requires opinions and subjectional review but since ive not tried this idea on different ROMs i couldnt say for sure what the results would hold.
Once upon a time, before the internet age, there were "Informatics" and "personal computers"
We had a problem: every shop sell HIS PC, assembling HW and assessing "My PC is the faster one". Also many TWEAKS were proposed for DOS and applications (This was before Egyptians I believe...)
The solution?
We built a SUITE, using a scripting tecnique, EMULATING REAL LIFE USER and measuring time, memory usage, battery load, CPU load...
Instead of using commercial benchmarks, because we don't care really about the file system speed, scrolling a large DIR matters, or rotating the screen speed.
We emulated a PRO user and a FUN user, opening a standard office file, starting and closing TT7 or video player speed with standard app (es. TCPMP) , opening an IE page, internet speed, scrolling a LOOOONG contact list, anything you consider as normal life usage.
A script could be used to start every single task and measuring the time.
AND IMHO THIS will be the killer application, comparing different ROM, devices, Diamond is faster than HD? and Kaiser? WVGA how slower is in REAL LIFE?
i belive you miss the point
this is supposed to be a tool helping people with less time or experience to choose the rom that is more appropiate to them
and maybe even help the developers to improve their work
as in the original thread is mentioned it isn't ment to say which rom "rules"
but, as i already said, if people will find this useless, or discussion will degenerate, a mod can close the thread anytime
noris08 said:
i belive you miss the point
this is supposed to be a tool helping people with less time or experience to choose the rom that is more appropiate to them
and maybe even help the developers to improve their work
as in the original thread is mentioned it isn't ment to say which rom "rules"
but, as i already said, if people will find this useless, or discussion will degenerate, a mod can close the thread anytime
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think we missed the point, just trying to share from experience why benchmarking isn't a particularly useful gauge to users trying to pick a rom. If you don't have the time to look around then i'd actually suggest just picking a rom based on what you read in the first couple posts describing it. Also that type of users should just pick a rom that is fuller with more programs installed by default.
Great idea, but will it ever be real?
While it's possible to devise a set of benchmarks and some kind of subjective scoring algorithm, the measurement accuracy will depend on too many factors and the result is likely to be unreliable and inconsistent. Seeing how many various ROMs based on the same OS builds are getting very different ratings in ROM benchmarking threads, real life performance seems to depend on every modification implemented in a ROM. E.g. even if the difference between ROMs is merely in a few files or a few registry keys, you'll probably end up comparing apples to oranges so this won't be very useful.
stepw said:
Great idea, but will it ever be real?
While it's possible to devise a set of benchmarks and some kind of subjective scoring algorithm, the measurement accuracy will depend on too many factors and the result is likely to be unreliable and inconsistent. Seeing how many various ROMs based on the same OS builds are getting very different ratings in ROM benchmarking threads, real life performance seems to depend on every modification implemented in a ROM. E.g. even if the difference between ROMs is merely in a few files or a few registry keys, you'll probably end up comparing apples to oranges so this won't be very useful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I must agree to that! At the end of the day, it all comes down to what started this thread: the personal feeling a user gets when using a ROM in his own particular way of using it, which is totally different and uncomparable with other's.
it seems that i can not make you see my point
i will say it for the last time
my original ideea was NOT to compare one rom to another rom.
that will only lead us to square one - which rom is best
AND THIS IS NOT THE POINT!
whatever!
i'll give up
cheers!
tnyynt said:
I must agree to that! At the end of the day, it all comes down to what started this thread: the personal feeling a user gets when using a ROM in his own particular way of using it, which is totally different and uncomparable with other's.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Benchmarking suite....
1) Free memory, storage mem at first start
2) Boot up time (measured with a simple program started at the end of the boot)
3) Search a string (time)
4) Open a complex word document (time)
5) open a complex excel document (time)
5) Active sync connected, open a simple web page, time, open a a Complex web page (success, time) (IE)
6) Open a LOCAL complex web page, scrolling, (time)
7) Restoring 4000 contacts (pimbackup, success, time)
8) Restoring 2000 SMS (pimbackup, success, time)
9) TT7 startup and close (or other BIG software, time)
10) TCPMP standard video player performance (direct draw, accelerated)
3 times each test, % of battery resulting startin with a full charge (these are only examples, just to explain better the point)
noris08 said:
it seems that i can not make you see my point
i will say it for the last time
my original ideea was NOT to compare one rom to another rom.
that will only lead us to square one - which rom is best
AND THIS IS NOT THE POINT!
whatever!
i'll give up
cheers!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i agree to noris08!
this thread is not what was the original intention
i doen't want to know if some rom is about 10ms faster than other rom as i have readed in other threads where one published his benchmark score 2635. and a user posted the question if his device fails because he comes "only" to score 2450 e.g.
no, for example i testet 5 ROMs from 4 chefs.
i would be able to tell the reason for choosing the actual ROM on my HD. There where many facts hardly subjective opinions for choosen that! I think if a user would describe his decision respectfully to the hard work of the cockers this will help all of us.
if the guy is wrong other users can reply with their opposite experiences he knows it is worth to look for the reason on his device(configuration).
We all know speed, good feeling depends on many factors. so only a respectful discussion will help users and chefs.
even when user are telling a specific ROM is slower than other specific rom, other users can agree or disagree. if one is telling it is slow and many others reply the opposite this is a useful information for the user and the chef. chef get the response his rom seems to work fine. otherwise the chief get the information his rom leaks in speed and there are further tuning possibilities because other rom look to be faster.
I would find a thread e.g.
"Your experences with different ROMS" or
"what rom do you use and which property or feature do you like extra"
maybe useful.
If someone is posting: "ROM X ist the best" useres are old enough to know that this is not a meaningful post.
I would like to read postings like:
I am using ROM XY - has great looking german keyboard with äöüÄÖÜß - very stable (softreset max. 1 in 2 Weeks ) Battery: without Backligth and no running program and no dataconnection only 60mA i experienced a "normal" value, in suspendmode over night max. 1% Power loss although G-Alarm and phone active ) overall good responses.
are you guys so scared of whos rom will be the fastest??
end of the line the fastest rom will be the one better built. (the one more tweaked)
its like talking to ppl :
"wow its stupid comparing a dell pc to a alienware pc with the same hardware"
why??
its like if someone is a fanboy of ati and never admits a nvidia car will perform better & vice-versa
and of course as like the nvidia & ati cards, not only hardware will make a difference.
do you want to know how it really should look a ROM review?! did you ever imagine how complex a ROM is to build a ROM? do you know what is the difference between a good and a bad ROM? here u have an example from one expert i'll trust with an opinion!
the-equinoxe said:
Cooking a ROM isn't just trowing a few packages, and some registry fixes in a kitchen and press build..
It's knowing why a ROM behaves in a certain way, and fixing unwanted behaviour.
It's knowing what happens when you cook a ROM, what the scripts in your kitchen are supposed to do, and what the are actually doing(!!).
It's knowing this and so much more..
I have seen ROMs released lately where the XIP wasn't rebased, where the rgu's were contradicting the hv files and worse: where RGU from package a was contradicting the RGU from package B. (and even worse: A contradicting B but both contradicting HV..).
Why not simply import the RGU's into the HV files first? and check the rgu files, or for fraks sake, merge them!
Some had added certificates, but the cook didn't knew that the base he was using was already patched to ignore all certificates.
Why on earth clutter the ROM with unnecessary certificates? Really WHY?
I have seen cooks adding XIP of a higher build but using the OS of a lower build, just to get a high build number. (some just plain hexedit the build number :s )
This simply makes me puke, why on earth would you add an UNMATCHING XIP in another OS? You would think that that unmatched part was the cause of some unexpected bugs, wouldn't you..
Or massive amounts of files that are moved from root (=\\windows) to some kind of subdirectory, it seems that the chefs who are doing this are unaware that they aren't MOVING but COPYING the files (jups, that was bad design from microsoft)
Why concentrate on the build number?
A higher build number doesn't make a better ROM.
Focus on making a ROM BETTER, fix those contradicting registry entries, there are plenty of tools out there to ease your work nowadays, it can be done in hours instead of weeks.
Rebase those files that are supposed to be XIP, don't leave it unaltered and most certainly don't make it a PE-file (like dll or EXE), you will have unpredictable occurrences of drivers unloading from memory when doing this, and other crazy bugs that are hard to pinpoint.
And if another chef removes those dsm files and replaces all RGU's with one (or just simply stay with the HV) ,it's mostly not to piss off other chefs so it can't be shared, but to make the ROM better and faster.
Etc etc etc etc.. (I could go on and on.. really ! The curse of the kitchens I called it)
This is not a Flame to a certain Chef, or even directed at this particular Forum, I have many devices, and I have flashed them a lot, sometimes I take the time to analyze a ROM, and I have been amazed what junk has been produced by some..
The main idea of a cooked ROM is to have a better device with fewer bugs, not a fancy picture, nor to have the highest number..
So in some cases the cure is worse than the problem..
I am not going to single out a bad cook, nor a good cook, there are plenty of both..
Some will see this as a personal attack, personally: I don't care, if you claim to be a Top-chef, but don't know the basics of cooking, call yourself what you want, but don't expect me (or others) to be fooled.
I am just saying: instead of focusing on a high build number, or a (bug ridden) beta, focus on what you are actually doing.
Take a stable ROM, and make that one better, most AKUs are intended to support newer devices, and newer hardware, a higher AKU doesn't mean the ROM is better (it could have new bugs to deal with).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the whole post is here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=3387292&postcount=76
KukurikU said:
did you ever imagine how complex a ROM is to build a ROM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sorry, but this does not subject this thread and nobody doubts about ROM cooking is not a simple job! thanks to all chefs!!!!
KukurikU said:
do you know what is the difference between a good and a bad ROM?
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Click to collapse
from the user's viewpoint i think its clear and software is made for users. user do not mandatory want to know whats behind the scenery in deepth. user want a device with software with basic properties and naturally many cool features - lets say:
a stable ROM with all features he needs for daily use, cool features for fun and suitable speed. if the userinterface have a appealing design also it's nearly perfect!
and here we are back again:
"what features or properties do you like most"
would help users to find out, what is the best for him!
this is naturaly only my opinion
P.S: Sorry for my suggestion to open a thread, i just found a thread with such a Subject!!!!!
autdev said:
sorry, but this does not subject this thread and nobody doubts about ROM cooking is not a simple job! thanks to all chefs!!!!
from the user's viewpoint i think its clear and software is made for users. user do not mandatory want to know whats behind the scenery in deepth. user want a device with software with basic properties and naturally many cool features - lets say:
a stable ROM with all features he needs for daily use, cool features for fun and suitable speed. if the userinterface have a appealing design also it's nearly perfect!
and here we are back again:
"what features or properties do you like most"
would help users to find out, what is the best for him!
this is naturaly only my opinion
P.S: Sorry for my suggestion to open a thread, i just found a thread with such a Subject!!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
cool features and appealing design in a rotten ROM means high battey consumption, frequent freezes and soft resets and so on...
i think i wasn't clear enough in my previous post. what i meant (in a nut shell) was that because of it's complexity deciding that a ROM is good, less good or bad is a professional's job. only an expert can give you a trustworthy opinion.
the moment somebody starts a "what is the best ROM for me" everybody will jump in and push the ROM he is using. after a while the thread will be cluttered with hundreds of honest but unprofessional opinions and you'll have on one page 8-9 different opinions. does this make yr decision of choosing a ROM easier?? i don't think so! so, back to square one
in my wet dreams i see a thread filled with posts of "ROM critics" that are analyzing each new ROM. reading such reviews could be very useful indeed.
in short: if u are a chef and own a kitchen than beware of the "food" critics that are visiting yr restaurant. they can kill yr business in tomorrows front page ROM review or make you a very, very rich and famous chef
ok So to conclude,
we cant use benchmarks since the difference between them would be next to nothing
we cant judge a ROM based on its funtionality since its purely opinionated
we could potential use a script to run a series of real world tests that become useless after a few resets and number of programs installed
That pretty much knocks the idea on the head then?
dazza9075 said:
ok So to conclude,
we cant use benchmarks since the difference between them would be next to nothing
we cant judge a ROM based on its funtionality since its purely opinionated
we could potential use a script to run a series of real world tests that become useless after a few resets and number of programs installed
That pretty much knocks the idea on the head then?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sure looks that way.
I would all come down to every user deciding on his own. Would you believe that after trying lots of ROMs I've reverted to a certain Stock ROM because I find that it offers close to perfection for my needs? I could praise the speed and stability and I'd advise you to use it, but you 'd most probably find that it would not suit your needs.
Anyways, I've offered to support a thread that is civilized and based on factual opinions, I will keep my word in doing so, if there's be such thread.
Here's another idea for you all: a good factor to take into consideration when judging a ROM is the number of users using it. It's a good indicator of the ROM's value, since X no. of users are hangin' on to that. Why not post and maintain a simple poll with the most common ROMs (stock and cooked) and see where it gets you?
Sense UI is slow on first-generation Android phones, and all the attempts to make it fast only result in a flaky, weird experience.
The framework and everything else is closed-source, what do you expect?
All we can do is extract the APKs and modify images and maybe tweak the AndroidManifest.xml or other xml files. Even if we can extract the bytecode (if that's what it's called for the DalvikVM), it still isn't as open as an AOSP build.
The only reason I flashed Rosie/Sense UI ROMs were to get a nice homescreen (which was slow) with nice widgets and a browser with Flash (that was slow and incompatible but still useful for simple stuff).
I would have fun with the ROM for a while, but when I needed to be productive, like Google something quickly or add a note in AK Notepad, it was painfully slow.
Android 2.2 Froyo is amazing. It has many features, the most important IMO being a reliable JIT compiler for the DalvikVM, and Flash 10.1 coming to the browser OFFICIALLY!
When the source for Android 2.2 is released and Cyanogen makes a release for the G1/Dream, I'm stuck on that until I get a super Android phone with a full QWERTY like the G1
Sense is also UGLY.
As for this flash thing... its not going to work on your phone. Compiled for a different CPU.
Nothing lost there though, flash is terrible trash that the world would be MUCH better off withOUT.
lbcoder said:
Sense is also UGLY.
As for this flash thing... its not going to work on your phone. Compiled for a different CPU.
Nothing lost there though, flash is terrible trash that the world would be MUCH better off withOUT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did Flash murder you in a previous life?
It seems 50% of your posts here are about how Flash is the end of civilization?
Flash is a dreadful battery/CPU hog, and I suspect the 'net, as Apple claim, would be better off without it.
That said, given the propensity of web designers to use nonstandard, bloated, un-necessary flash widgets that break navigation everywhere in their pages, making them utterly useless to those with old machines, accessibility needs/disabilities, etc I guess it's probably better to have it than not. Flash 10.1 under FroYo is only marginally quirky on my Desire. Getting there!
Sense, OTOH, I miss... LauncherPro just isn't as pretty. But I think on older hardware like the G1, I'd agree with the OP. It's not necessary to get the most out of Android and if it's causing slowdowns, it's a bit counter-intuitive to the actual purpose of a mobile phone.
Azurael said:
That said, given the propensity of web designers to use nonstandard, bloated, un-necessary flash widgets that break navigation everywhere in their pages, making them utterly useless to those with old machines, accessibility needs/disabilities, etc I guess it's probably better to have it than not. Flash 10.1 under FroYo is only marginally quirky on my Desire. Getting there!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How about just not visiting those websites? Most even halfway marginal websites will provide "if (no flash) then show these links instead", of the rest, you can certainly get the information somewhere else, or failing that, you probably don't want it anyway (the developer is obviously retarded...)
The big important thing to note is that the web is changing. There is MUCH MUCH MUCH less flash around than there was 10 years ago. In fact, I can't think of a single site that actually still *requires* it (except maybe a few sites hosting videos of retards doing stupid crap). I can think of a few that have flash ads -- in these cases, NOT having flash dramatically improves your experience.
Different architectures
I remember a while back that there was a bug in Sense on the Hero where the package name (com.google.maps) would be displayed instead of the actual application name (Maps).
HTC acknowledged the problem and fixed it, but that's the problem with Sense; if it were open-source, someone (probably on xda) would release a tiny patch to fix the problem. Like if Google made the same mistake in the default Launcher, it would be fixed by the devs online quickly.
And now about Flash: What!? Wasn't it built for ARM? Or do the N1 and other superphones use a slightly different architecture? This is weird...
Another problem is that there are netbooks and all sorts of smartphones with Android.
Most netbooks will have x86 processors (Intel, AMD) and though most smartphones are expected to use ARM, some might use a different architecture like MIPS, or even x86 in the future.
Normal Android applications that are made with Java are fine, but how about all the apps with native binaries built with the Android NDK?
What Google should do is implement a way to compile the same program to all popular architectures, and keep the different binaries in the APK.
Apple did something similar in Mac OS X when they switched from PowerPC to Intel... application files in Mac OS X are basically a package that holds basic information, icons, and the binaries, which make this file format similar to Android APKs, except that when someone compiles their program for OS X, both PowerPC and Intel binaries are compiled and stored in the application.
If Google does this for Android, there will be no problem with different architectures (like with Flash not being able to run on the G1)
PSP_Hacker said:
I remember a while back that there was a bug in Sense on the Hero where the package name (com.google.maps) would be displayed instead of the actual application name (Maps).
HTC acknowledged the problem and fixed it, but that's the problem with Sense; if it were open-source, someone (probably on xda) would release a tiny patch to fix the problem. Like if Google made the same mistake in the default Launcher, it would be fixed by the devs online quickly.
And now about Flash: What!? Wasn't it built for ARM? Or do the N1 and other superphones use a slightly different architecture? This is weird...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just like i686 binaries won't run on an i486 CPU, ARM7 binaries won't run on an ARM5 CPU. There are architectural changes that break compatibility of new binaries on old hardware.
Another problem is that there are netbooks and all sorts of smartphones with Android.
Most netbooks will have x86 processors (Intel, AMD) and though most smartphones are expected to use ARM, some might use a different architecture like MIPS, or even x86 in the future.
Normal Android applications that are made with Java are fine, but how about all the apps with native binaries built with the Android NDK?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not all native applications are built with the NDK. Flash is a big example -- it has a lot of HAND WRITTEN ASSEMBLY CODE. There is NO automatic way to generate hand written assembly code. Each additional platform you support MUST have its own manually written code.
What Google should do is implement a way to compile the same program to all popular architectures, and keep the different binaries in the APK.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/index.html
Might not be a bad idea to read up on the ndk.
The applicable line is "You can also build for both architectures at the same time and have everything stored in the final .apk". Seems that they already thought of this
*** but it isn't applicable to flash since flash is partially hand-written. They could easily include the various binaries within a single APK file, but that won't happen unless they actually build the arm5 binary, which is extremely unlikely.
If Google does this for Android, there will be no problem with different architectures (like with Flash not being able to run on the G1)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For reasons mentioned above, this doesn't help.
I have yet to find any decent threads anywhere regarding the best settings for the Nexus 7 so I thought I would start and hopefully learn some info from other users and provide a good resource thread for others.
I have not overclocked and haven't added any cutom tweaks to governors and schedulers yet so my experience so far has been with the default kernel options. Since hardware is different and kernel/rom experiences will vary I will just start with Scheduler, Governor, and other general tweaks.
Scheduler:
i have so far had the best experiences with SIO, and NOOP
Governor:
So far the best balance between performance and battery life has been with Pegasusq and Interactive
ADJ and LMK:
I don't use any scripts like Supercharger I like to do everything manually, here are the values I have found that offer the smoothest user experience:
ADJ:
0,1,3,6,9,15
1536,9216,25600,51200,76800,102400 - (Wife's for general use and multi-tasking)
ADJ:
0,1,4,7,10,15
5120,15360,61440,81920,102400,122880 - (Mine for gaming and high performance)
I have boat-loads of tweaks that I have used for roms I have built for other devices, but hesitant to use them with the Nexus 7 due to the fact that I don't want to cause any negative effects. I have added generic linux tweaks (ext4, database defrag, kernel tweaks) but the Adreno and Powervr tweaks obviously are null and void for this. As I discover more I will definitely share.
I have had issues getting custom LMK values loaded on some kernels, but franco and anything based off Motley has worked just fine. I know there is a bug with LMK on some source versions and assume it is related to that, but if anyone has found a workaround i would be very interested as I would love to give the other kernels a shot.
I am intrigued about lulzactive but the parameters need to be tweaked as the default settings provide horrible battery life. I am interested to know what other people have been using and any info you want to provide is welcome and greatly appreciated!
The problem with such threads and people sharing all this info is everyone uses something different, meaning what tweaks and settings you use for your given device are dependent also on the ROM and the kernel you're using so...
You can see how that basically ends up being a thread full of info where people just end up saying "oh yeah, well my <whatever device> can get <however many hours> of battery life..." and so on.
It's a good idea I suppose but it only ends up providing benefits to those people that a) end up using the same hardware and b) end up using the same ROMs and c) end up using the same kernels too. And yes I know this is the Nexus 7 so that covers the device aspect right there...
Suffice to say this: none of the tweaks or info you provided in your post are relevant to me at all with my Nexus 7 as the kernel I use (M-Kernel a37) doesn't support the kinds of governors that are considered the more esoteric ones (it has interactive, ondemand, touchdemand, and performance) nor the same class of schedulers (it has noop, deadline, row, and bfq). Would be nice but, I look at it this way:
Both the Paranoid Android developers (any and all of them) as well as Metallice who's responsible for M-Kernel, have done a metric frak-ton of work before I even got a Nexus 7 with testing, builds, more testing, more builds, testing, more testing, even more testing, and they continue to develop and test even to this moment and my Nexus 7 runs fabulously, I honestly can't ask for more considering the performance (even with the default of 2 cores enabled with my choice of kernel) and battery life (which is damned amazing as well).
But who knows, maybe something useful will show up... I've just gotten to a point where "It just works" and that's good enough for me. Tweaking is just boring nowadays, but that's just my opinion.
<all this is coming from a guy that's been tweaking computers and consumer electronics of all kinds, shapes, and sizes for several decades now, and yes I can honestly say "I've pretty much seen it all...">
br0adband said:
You can see how that basically ends up being a thread full of info where people just end up saying "oh yeah, well my <whatever device> can get <however many hours> of battery life..." and so on.
It's a good idea I suppose but it only ends up providing benefits to those people that a) end up using the same hardware and b) end up using the same ROMs and c) end up using the same kernels too. And yes I know this is the Nexus 7 so that covers the device aspect right there...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Given that this is the Nexus 7 forum, <whatever device> = <Nexus 7>
richardorvince said:
Given that this is the Nexus 7 forum, <whatever device> = <Nexus 7>
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I covered that in the last sentence you just quoted.
I know I only have 9 posts here and that makes me a "noob" in the eyes of most people here, but I am by no means a noob in general, just a noob when it comes to tegra. I have boosted performance and battery life (up to 50%) on other devices and don't see any reason why it can't be done on this one.
I already touched on the fact that opinions are just that, experiences may vary, but when it comes to governors there is a discernable difference when it comes to battery life and performance and that is what I am inquiring about. There are also tunables which can change a governor from completely horrible to exceptional. THis is why I am inquiring. Don't bother yourself with this thread if it is of no use to you.
If you'd take the time - if you haven't already - to read with comprehension the threads for kernels like franco.Kernel and M-Kernel you'd see a massive if not overwhelming amount of information that you're actually looking for that's already been done. Those two kernels - and probably most of the other popular ones - have extensive levels of research and testing already done on them and in their most currently available forms they are the epitome of kernel development on the Nexus 7, and I stand by that statement even in spite of me not being a developer myself. I have read thousands upon thousands of posts and done my own little amounts of experimentation just to prove to myself that yes, those two kernels (and probably others) provide exactly what their respective developers have worked so hard to provide:
Exceptional performance overall coupled with exceptional battery life as well. Yes you can do your own tuning for your own particular needs and wants and even your own requirements as needed which is pretty much what you're apparently hoping to discover from other people and their own experiences.
I'm not saying this thread is a bad idea, I'm saying it's been done before: hundreds if not thousands of times in the very threads that exist for each of the respective kernels (and ROMs by association). The kernel threads have extreme amounts of info on basic tunables, governors, schedulers, pretty much every last thing you or anyone else could ever do to squeeze out the best they offer and the the developers implement that stuff into the defaults of their kernels based on the results of testing and reports from users implementing them.
The info is out there, you just have to go find it - and yes I note that you said you'd never found any decent threads about the Nexus 7 which is precisely what prompted my first reply: the info is already out there in the kernel and ROM threads.
There can't be a "best of" type thread like this because there's just so many different variations of kernels, ROMs, etc even if the device is the same amongst all the people.
Also, one aspect that most people don't realize: there are different revisions of the Nexus 7 hardware and they tend to perform differently. I, for example, have an original (and I mean first production run) Nexus 7 8GB model that has totally different performance characteristics than the later revisions of the same 8GB model, and then the 16GB and 32GB models are even different on another level because they use faster Flash-RAM onboard than the 8GB models ever did.
So again, it's a great idea and I figured if nobody else ever created one I'd do it myself, but in the long run every device is going to perform differently. Even if you had two Nexus 7s that came off the production line one right after the other and you tested them with the exact same ROMs, kernels, and tweaks, you'd get different results from each one. I'm not being facetious when I say that, I'm being totally absolutely dead serious.
Also, there is no really good overall benchmark for Android, probably never will be. You have to use different ones geared towards specific purposes to get any useful data, like AndroBench which tests the storage specifically and Vellamo which can test the HTML/surfing performance specifically. Antutu is probably the best actually useful overall system benchmark but unfortunately more people use Quadrant which is a shame because that one is so useless the results can vary rather dramatically even if you run it several times in a row.
Believe me, I've been tweaking for decades, so there's nothing I can say or do that'll stop anyone from doing it - I know the bug of "Upgraditis" quite well and have suffered from it forever, right alongside the companion condition known as being a Tweakaholic...
br0adband said:
If you'd take the time - if you haven't already - to read with comprehension the threads for kernels like franco.Kernel and M-Kernel you'd see a massive if not overwhelming amount of information that you're actually looking for that's already been done. Those two kernels - and probably most of the other popular ones - have extensive levels of research and testing already done on them and in their most currently available forms they are the epitome of kernel development on the Nexus 7, and I stand by that statement even in spite of me not being a developer myself. I have read thousands upon thousands of posts and done my own little amounts of experimentation just to prove to myself that yes, those two kernels (and probably others) provide exactly what their respective developers have worked so hard to provide:
Exceptional performance overall coupled with exceptional battery life as well. Yes you can do your own tuning for your own particular needs and wants and even your own requirements as needed which is pretty much what you're apparently hoping to discover from other people and their own experiences.
I'm not saying this thread is a bad idea, I'm saying it's been done before: hundreds if not thousands of times in the very threads that exist for each of the respective kernels (and ROMs by association). The kernel threads have extreme amounts of info on basic tunables, governors, schedulers, pretty much every last thing you or anyone else could ever do to squeeze out the best they offer and the the developers implement that stuff into the defaults of their kernels based on the results of testing and reports from users implementing them.
The info is out there, you just have to go find it - and yes I note that you said you'd never found any decent threads about the Nexus 7 which is precisely what prompted my first reply: the info is already out there in the kernel and ROM threads.
There can't be a "best of" type thread like this because there's just so many different variations of kernels, ROMs, etc even if the device is the same amongst all the people.
Also, one aspect that most people don't realize: there are different revisions of the Nexus 7 hardware and they tend to perform differently. I, for example, have an original (and I mean first production run) Nexus 7 8GB model that has totally different performance characteristics than the later revisions of the same 8GB model, and then the 16GB and 32GB models are even different on another level because they use faster Flash-RAM onboard than the 8GB models ever did.
So again, it's a great idea and I figured if nobody else ever created one I'd do it myself, but in the long run every device is going to perform differently. Even if you had two Nexus 7s that came off the production line one right after the other and you tested them with the exact same ROMs, kernels, and tweaks, you'd get different results from each one. I'm not being facetious when I say that, I'm being totally absolutely dead serious.
Also, there is no really good overall benchmark for Android, probably never will be. You have to use different ones geared towards specific purposes to get any useful data, like AndroBench which tests the storage specifically and Vellamo which can test the HTML/surfing performance specifically. Antutu is probably the best actually useful overall system benchmark but unfortunately more people use Quadrant which is a shame because that one is so useless the results can vary rather dramatically even if you run it several times in a row.
Believe me, I've been tweaking for decades, so there's nothing I can say or do that'll stop anyone from doing it - I know the bug of "Upgraditis" quite well and have suffered from it forever, right alongside the companion condition known as being a Tweakaholic...
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Blah Blah Blah
I mean seriously dude, that is a lot of words for saying absolutely nothing.
I am a developer on other devices, and I will be releasing roms for this one as well. I was looking for personal experience, not an opinion from someone who has absolutely nothing to add. I have been a member of this site for over six months, and I am just now hitting the "10 post requirement" to post in the developer forums. Why?? Because I am not out to make a name for myself on this website, I already have a reputation - a good one - on others, places where post counts and titles mean nothing unless you have actually developed something.
I work and have a family so I don't have tons of time to test out schedulers and governors so I was looking for some info from others and gave some of my own in return. I am not a tweakaholic, but you will thank me when I release an optimized ROM with extended battery life and a fluid and smooth user experience.
This site is great in a lot of ways, but I have noticed there are a lot of egotistical holier than thou people on the forums who like nothing better than to put other people down and be (for lack of a better word) ***holes. If your hobby is to crap on other peoples threads then it is time for a life change, get out and find a girl-friend, or friends in general.
You're a ROM developer and a member at the biggest most popular site on the entire Internet for ROM development for mobile devices and it took you six months to get to 10 posts? Guess I'm missing something but whatever, you go right on going on, son, I'll keep an eye out for your progress.
As for thanking you for ROMs, no, that won't happen since you're too far behind the curve now and anything you come up with will basically be copied work that others before you have long since created and improved upon (even if you don't realize it). If you're that busy with 'real life' and whatever - which always seems to be the reason, go figure - then perhaps you don't have the time to focus on such tasks in the first place. Priorities, man, priorities.
Ad hominem sure seems to be the norm for people online these days, wonder why.
Fact - 95% of the battery tweaks are placebo at best.
The remaining come from kernel developers who have a firm grasp on undervolting and can actually get a little longer battery life out of your device.
The best blanket solution to increasing your battery.. Turn off Location Access and Google Now.
Yes my job and family are my priority. As they should be. Also my point was I am not trying to boosty my post count to show how "cool" I am, I could care less. As it should be.
And no battery tweaks are not placebo, unless you are using placebo battery tweaks of course. There are Build.prop, init.d and sysctl.conf tweaks that can boost battery life 20-30% easy, and it can be proven. No placebo. If you choose to believe that then I have no problem with it.
I thank both of you for littering this thread with crap. I will not bother with this one I have much better things going on other forums. I truly wish I knew as much as you guys, It must suck to know everything because life must be truly boring for you.
I was wondering if anyone has done any actual testing between the different popular kernels available for the N4, or even a spread speed with a feature comparison.
With so man different options it hard to tell how they stack up, which have what fixes or what additions applied. I feel like someone should make a sticky that compares the kernels side by side so that newbies/people who are just not technical or great on following what has recently updated, can tell what each option offers.
I know that on the Nexus 7 forum there is a thread where a person applies the same device, ROM and settings to multiple kernels and test battery life in a few separate situations. I'd love to see someone do that for the Nexus 4 as well. I know there are many variables in play, but it can give people an idea of what each kernel provides.
That way people can more easily narrow down what kernels fit their needs/feature desires.
the problem is that different devices react differently to each kernel. one devices great, can be another devices horrible. i do understand your idea though, im not saying its bad, because it is a good idea. its just the results would be accurate(maybe, depends on how tested, for the tester. but could be very inaccurate for another device.
I know that, but at least a tracking spread sheet would be handy for comparisons, and the testing would let people know somewhat what what to expect.
knitler said:
I know that, but at least a tracking spread sheet would be handy for comparisons, and the testing would let people know somewhat what what to expect.
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What do you want the most out of a kernel? Battery life, speed, or oc?
I know im repeating another fellow member but not all chips are created equal. It all depends what kinda of use. You could try a kernel and run your tests on it. Then save pictures of the graphs if you can. Then flash a different kernel and make comparisons on them. A good place to start is Faux123 or Franco kernel. Both kernels are developed very well.
I don't think you are following me.
If you want to know what Kernels allow:
Color calibration
Ennhanced audio
built-in wifi fix
underclock to 192mhz
Would you rather read 12-15 threads or just look at a spreadsheet in a sticky on top of the forum, and know what 2-3 to choose from instead of reading all the descriptions and notes?
knitler said:
I don't think you are following me.
If you want to know what Kernels allow:
Color calibration
Ennhanced audio
built-in wifi fix
underclock to 192mhz
Would you rather read 12-15 threads or just look at a spreadsheet in a sticky on top of the forum, and know what 2-3 to choose from instead of reading all the descriptions and notes?
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Just try some kernel`s out and keep the one you like most, is this again one of those disguised `best of` threads? Each user has a different setup (apps, widgets, syncing, roms, mods) so this would not be a test under similar conditions.
knitler said:
I don't think you are following me.
If you want to know what Kernels allow:
Color calibration
Ennhanced audio
built-in wifi fix
underclock to 192mhz
Would you rather read 12-15 threads or just look at a spreadsheet in a sticky on top of the forum, and know what 2-3 to choose from instead of reading all the descriptions and notes?
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If it bugs you so much why don't you make the spreadsheet? It's not like you'd have to learn code or something. Just saying..
knitler said:
Would you rather read 12-15 threads or just look at a spreadsheet in a sticky on top of the forum, and know what 2-3 to choose from instead of reading all the descriptions and notes?
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When I chose a kernel, I used to manually look through each kernel thread and then just try the kernel myself. Didn't need any fancy spreadsheet or comparison charts.
Plus I have a feeling it would... deter newer kernel developers and misguide newer users. A user sees "X" kernel not having a feature, when 5 other kernels have every feature, and they'll skip right over that kernel, regardless of what benefits it may offer.
espionage724 said:
When I chose a kernel, I used to manually look through each kernel thread and then just try the kernel myself. Didn't need any fancy spreadsheet or comparison charts.
Plus I have a feeling it would... deter newer kernel developers and misguide newer users. A user sees "X" kernel not having a feature, when 5 other kernels have every feature, and they'll skip right over that kernel, regardless of what benefits it may offer.
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If the kernel has benefits then they would just be listed. You're example doesn't make much sense to me, if a person wants a feature, they yes, they will use a kernel that has that feature. If a person wants to tune the color on their screen why would they NOT get a kernel with that control feature?
knitler said:
If the kernel has benefits then they would just be listed. You're example doesn't make much sense to me, if a person wants a feature, they yes, they will use a kernel that has that feature. If a person wants to tune the color on their screen why would they NOT get a kernel with that control feature?
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a few good kernels dont list "features". and some kernels make up names for features to make them sound more then they are, and make it a point to list "features" that really arent. really, its best to try a kernel, as these "feature" lists can be very misleading.
Hi everyone, so I've recently entered the android world, I've had iOS basically for ever. I've been reading a little into this and on the features but can anyone explain me properly what are ROMs, Kernels? And why are they useful? If I'm satisfied with the looks of my s7e and with the functionalities, should I install another kernel/ROM? As far as I understand, should I be satisfied with both, the only thing that ROMs and kernel can do better is make it faster and use less battery? This is what I managed to gather from what I read but please do correct me if it's not so.
Thanks!
So there are really complex answers (Google those) and a really simple answers. Here they go.
ROMs are operating systems. Custom ROMs are created by other users, as opposed to stock ROMs which are created by the manufacturer of the phone. They replace the operating system on the phone with one with custom functionality. The custom functionality can be as simple as modified cosmetic stuff (themes, fonts), to highly modified functionality with added/removed functionality.
A kernel is a critical part of a ROM. Technically it provides the interface between the hardware and software -- it's the heart of the operating system. Modified kernels let you change things about how the hardware operates (overclocking, etc) that you simply can't do in software.
As you may have guessed, there are advantages and disadvantages to custom ROMs. You can modify functionality of your phone, possibly make it operate more to your liking, but you can also irreparably damage the phone if you don't do it properly.
Long story short, if you're happy with your phone, and you don't have any desire to get into the customization game, then don't worry about custom stuff. Leave that to the tinkerers.
Cinco5 said:
So there are really complex answers (Google those) and a really simple answers. Here they go.
ROMs are operating systems. Custom ROMs are created by other users, as opposed to stock ROMs which are created by the manufacturer of the phone. They replace the operating system on the phone with one with custom functionality. The custom functionality can be as simple as modified cosmetic stuff (themes, fonts), to highly modified functionality with added/removed functionality.
A kernel is a critical part of a ROM. Technically it provides the interface between the hardware and software -- it's the heart of the operating system. Modified kernels let you change things about how the hardware operates (overclocking, etc) that you simply can't do in software.
As you may have guessed, there are advantages and disadvantages to custom ROMs. You can modify functionality of your phone, possibly make it operate more to your liking, but you can also irreparably damage the phone if you don't do it properly.
Long story short, if you're happy with your phone, and you don't have any desire to get into the customization game, then don't worry about custom stuff. Leave that to the tinkerers.
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Well I actually enjoy the customisation game, I did download quite a few apps for that and I really like it right now. So in your opinion I should browse all of them being on the lookout for something, for some functionality that I'd like? Would you say that it'd be worth to download one just for the speed and better battery life?
I apologise for the specific questions but as I understand installing one does trip KNOX, the warranty is probably never going to actually be useful but better safe than sorry I guess thanks !
I am a bit of a noob in the android development scene. The last android phone i used was a HTC One M7. I rooted it and flashed multiple roms on it like Viper, MIUI, CM etc. It was quite a simple process once i watched all tutorials etc.
My query is why we havent seen any AOSP based rom developmwnt for s7 like a CM or a MIUI? Thank you for the reply.
A custom ROM on the S7 is basically the original operating system with extra features, they are all based on the "stock" firmware. If you take a look in the development section you'll notice some ROMs with heavier modifications, like debloated versions (with a lot of the system apps removed) or some with a lot of extras, like king ROM. The likes of renovate or superman are like the original ROM but with very few changes, and they might have some optimizations. If you're new to this stuff, and especially on the S7, it's not worth flashing a custom ROM. Stick with the stock firmware and root access if you wish it.