Related
This community is so damn innovative and cooperative, it amazes me what software/ROMS get cooked here which really add a lot of productivity value to me, transforming a tedious, hard-to-read Windows Mobile User Interface into a tool that really works on the go. And I've been equally impressed by the collaborative spirit of this community in problem solving and feature tweeks.
Thus I am curious if there is an organized policy here that helps us end-users deter the scammers who grab software from XDA-developers, bundle it, and sell it across the web. I'm speaking of a prominent spot on the home page and within the information design of these forums that, just like the "Missing Kids" alerts on milk cartons, highlights prominently the latest scammers stealing work here.
I understand this forum is for actual development, but truth is this issue gets lost in "General" forums. Because it's the people who hack here who are the people being hurt directly.
Though I signed onto XDA over a year ago, and have read volumes re my T-mobile MDA and software upgrades here, I ended up being nonetheless too nervous to follow the very clear instructions posted last year with all if the various WM 6 roms developed here. And I never did upgrade.
But I have a WING now, and I wanted an iphone theme and user interface. Again I read all the sticky threads for the Herald, as well as the links from the wiki for that specific phone. After several days of trying to figure out "should I be first flashing my T-mobile ROM to a more efficient one, before then seeking to install one of the iphone themes and apps like A_C's S2U2 etc. I then did a dumb consumer thing: when searching this site using Google, I followed the links to one or two of the GOOGLE AD-WORDS hawking an iPhone theme on your PocketPC.
Long story short, I got scammed of $10 for something that was outdated and didn't even install properly on my WING... But I'd been "comforted" by the presentation on their website, http://iphonethemeforpocketpc.com , thinking I would get my head cleared of the confusion that mounts when I'd dig down deep into the many discussions of so many ROMs & themes & apps here. I got burned, that was bad enough. But it then pissed me off doubly that superior software would be found here at XDA -- and more than likely some of that guy's component cab files were simply stolen from developers right here.
I ended up back here and successfully installed the ifonz theme, A_C's S2U2 (the scam site had an old slide2unlock version... bit as everyone here knows, A_C's app is superb. I also installed Contact Manager (amazing!), PCM keyboard (what an improvement over windows), and MortPlayer (fantastic). I intend to donate to each program author.
But the purpose of this post is this: I filed a dispute with PayPal (requires login) over this scammer's non-working product and absolute refusal to even reply to my early "friendly" emails seeking install help. Went through PayPal's Resolution Center "escalation process" -- after no reply from the seller to PayPal -- and my dispute became a CLAIM for Paypal to determine outcome. PayPal's reply, denying the claim, states that they reviewed all communications and investigated the issue fully (totally not true).
I could have stopped there -- afterall i'd long ago expended way more than $10 worth of my time -- but it was for the principle of it. So I called PayPal, went through all the menu-options, screenings, and hold queues, and finally spoke to an actual Resolution Agent -- who was very nice, & actually very helpful.
However: I learned then, from her, what many of you may already know -- but I wonder DOES everyone know?, because I sure didn't... She told me that anything digital or downloadable is not even covered with any Buyer Protection as disclosed in PayPal's terms of service. So the claim got closed automatically because it didn't qualify for any dispute resolution. I was really surprised by this, that no downloadable software is subject to dispute/resolution policies -- and that's why I am writing this thread, as a service (I *hope*) to all you developers.
I first did a search here on the boards for "scams", because I wanted to find a place on this site to DISPLAY CLEARLY---> Here is a scamsite --> make sure your stuff is not being sold there. That's when I saw this sampling of threads, below, and had to wonder, is there a policy here that is clear and easy to find (NO! not that I can see!) that helps developers here by giving us end-users a place to post the hit-list of scammers on ebay, on iphonetheme websites, etc. ?
If so, I missed it in the information design here. If not, I recommend it. I know it burns you guys who are being ripped off -- but it also ticks off less-sophisticated community members like me (end-users of your hard work) to see your works exploited -- given especially their innovation and performance tweeks.
Here are just a few of the threads I found from this year, from March 08, where people reported being ripped off by people selling their works. In my view, I don't think that's enough or sufficient to just have someone start a thread saying "beware of X, Y or Z". And that's why I posted this. Thanks to all of you who make the lives of end-users more productive with your great work.
q/s
Name And Shame Ebayer Stealing Xdev Material
Bastards selling my Unlocker
Thief On The Loose At Hofo and possibly xda!
wow.. no reply. well i know i'm verbose, but i thought this would at least get a reply that explained yes/no if the site has designated a specific area to broadcast who are the current scammers operating out on he internets...
Should I be posting this into a different forum? if so, which one please/ thanks
As far as I know, there is no area warning about potential scams. There have been issues with people selling cooked roms on ebay that i'm aware of, but that normally comes up in model-specific forums.
it definitely could be helpful to have such an area on the forum, but at the same time, there have been many stickies informing people NOT to go out and sell other peoples work, and advising people against using warez and cracked programs.
Most people that have come to this forum realize there is no reason to pay for most software, as there's probably an excellent free or open source alternative. if there's not yet, someone's working on one. this forum is a mix of entusiasts, programmers, hackers, and people who just love to tweak their devices. once you come here and see the vast amounts of information, there's really no need to go anywhere else. i check the xda forums rather regularly, and pocketpcfreeware every now and again.
i don't think a scams section on the forum would help keep from people getting scammed elsewhere... they usually find this site after they've already been scammed. many of us have already taken it into our own hands, by trying to point as many people as we can here, so they can learn the beauty of free, well maintained software and roms made by people who just want to help others enjoy their devices more and more.
scammers are more like a disease... and prevention is the best medicine.
alongenemylines said:
As far as I know, there is no area warning about potential scams. There have been issues with people selling cooked roms on ebay that i'm aware of, but that normally comes up in model-specific forums.
it definitely could be helpful to have such an area on the forum, but at the same time, there have been many stickies informing people NOT to go out and sell other peoples work, and advising people against using warez and cracked programs.
Most people that have come to this forum realize there is no reason to pay for most software, as there's probably an excellent free or open source alternative. if there's not yet, someone's working on one. this forum is a mix of entusiasts, programmers, hackers, and people who just love to tweak their devices. once you come here and see the vast amounts of information, there's really no need to go anywhere else. i check the xda forums rather regularly, and pocketpcfreeware every now and again.
i don't think a scams section on the forum would help keep from people getting scammed elsewhere... they usually find this site after they've already been scammed. many of us have already taken it into our own hands, by trying to point as many people as we can here, so they can learn the beauty of free, well maintained software and roms made by people who just want to help others enjoy their devices more and more.
scammers are more like a disease... and prevention is the best medicine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There have been instances where its come to the attention of the community here and the developers of ROMS and programs that their work is being packaged and sold on ebay and the like. Obviously this behavior is viewed very negatively. While there is no policy or "organized" efforts to monitor and react, when someone does point out an instance, the community members rally around and do what they can to call the guy out, and warn potential scammees of it. Ebay is often notified directly, and also comments on the sellers postings on ebay are made to warn.
And yes, your post is verbose
I have come to a point where I can no longer sit back and watch our system be bombarded with spam apps. It hurts android as a system and will be its downfall, open or not.
I sent tips to Gizmodo, Engadget, BGR, and all others that have can reach a large audience.
I for one am sick and tired of all the bull**** I see in the market. Open system or not, its getting out of hand. I can't be the only one fed up with the situation. To all android users please voice your hatred of people abusing the rules. Just because its not illegal does not make it ethical or allowable
These are a few links to help people realize how bad this problem is and how bad it will become.
Who cares if we have 50,000 apps and upwards of 15,000 are complete crap. There are 20 real offenders with about 1,000 apps each. 1,000!! each. Thats ridiculous.
Almost 50% of our applications do nothing. Absolutely nothing. I love my N! and have been an Android user since the G1. I have watched our open system is being abused and ransacked by idiots.
Anyone else fed up with this do something to fix it rather than sit back.
I know this is not so much about the N1 than it is Android in general, but I wanted people to see it and spread the word.
These are some websites to look at
http://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/bwemj/pocket_empires_spamming_android_market/
http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Android+Market/thread?tid=511e1703b32ce3a5&hl=en
http://www.eurodroid.com/2010/02/an...he-day-zeitmann-and-its-deluxe-clock-widgets/
http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Android+Market/thread?tid=608e9ca3fc7a80fb&hl=en
http://forum.xda-developers.com/archive/index.php/t-635400.html
I'd noticed a lot of reviews mentioning Pocket Empire, all across the Market, earlier today, it's a pain in the arse, and highlights the fact that you really can't read just a few comments left, and assume they'll be accurate.
Yes it is totally our of hand. The Pocket Empire developers have been encouraging their users to go to the market and download any and all Free apps they dont have to pay for. Then to leave feedback score of 5 for the unrelated app with a comment promoting their Pocket Empires and a referral code. So as well as the comments being BS so are the star ratings they are leaving, which do not reflect the underlying application.
Here are some threads discussing it.
Nexusone Stop spamming the Android Market Pocket Empire players
People advertise everywhere for "pocket empires"- can this spam be curtailed somehow?
How about all the people who were getting their knickers in a knot about the sentence "this message was not sent by tapatalk" sink their teeth into this one.
It is of far greater significance and has the potential to undermine the android market. The lack of action by google to date on this issue (ie not banning PE) suggests to me that they want the market to self regulate.
So lets get together and do something about this Pocket Empire mob.
Yeah the stupid spam comments about "join pocket empires and receive 100 credits" is really getting annoying, not to mention the complete random and totally useless apps that have been coming onto the market lately.
You can at least use appbrain as an alternative, because it filters out the vast majority of Spam apps. But it cannot filter all the PE Spam comments.
Well yesterday, the dev of Pocket Empires sent an ingame message out saying the following:
Hey everyone. We are laying down a new "dont spam other games" policy due to the amount of spame that's been being spread around. Starting May 1st any comments past that date will have their referral code banned for a week. Thanks for your assumed cooperation and enjoy!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seems like the dev is trying to put a stop to it at least for now.
Sistum Id said:
Well yesterday, the dev of Pocket Empires sent an ingame message.....
Seems like the dev is trying to put a stop to it at least for now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes but they are just going through the motions of saying the right thing. Crying Crocodile Tears. How do you honestly think they are going to police their threat of one week bans?
If they were serious about it, they would
1) be telling their users to go back and undo the damage they have done. Which would involve removing spam comments left for other apps AND setting ratings stars to average.
2) removing the referral code system altogether, so that once they no longer can Spam the market they do not just move to every other forum know to man. Such as some smart arse adding a PE referral in this very thread which will no doubt happen soon enough.
I would really like to see Google pull PE from the market altogether for some time as a penalty. But probably wont happen as they want the market to self regulate.
POCKET EMPIRES = POX it must be eradicated
Quick add me on pocket empire!
My code is [email protected]
I'll pay that one ;-)
KnightMAREcrow said:
These are some websites to look at
http://forum.xda-developers.com/archive/index.php/t-635400.html
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I opened that thread over there. What bothers me the most is how easy it would it be for google to give us the tools to crush spam.
From where I see it, there are two distinct problems right now:
1) the spam apps (those by Michael Quach, Zeittman, etc).
The easy solution: allow the users to filter out specific words and developers. Then, if a given number of users filter out a developer, consider him "uninteresting" and relegate his apps to the bottom.
2) the PE spam in other apps and games.
The easy solution: if a given number of users report a given number of posts as spam (e.g. 50 individual users report 50 individual messages) consider them spam and filter out every message that is 90% similar to them (e.g. they have mostly the same words but the referral code changes).
These would be completely automatic and would require absolutely no human interaction on part of Google. It's so easy it makes me want to go to their offices and slap the person in charge in the neck.
I reckon a simpler solution to the PE SPAM with referral codes is as follows:
Restrict feedback entries to known words. So if a user enters anything that is not a word, such as a referral code, serial number or email, then it would get rejected. There is absolutely no reason for legitimate feedback to contain any word or string of characters that is not in a dictionary.
logger said:
There is absolutely no reason for legitimate feedback to contain any word or string of characters that is not in a dictionary.
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Click to collapse
What about diminutives, etc? Also, What if I want to point to a related app that is better in my opinion? I have done that in the past.
Fair point.
However, for simplicity, blocking non words would go a long way to fixing the referral code issue, while allowing most feedback. It may be better to point out the shortcomings of an application, than to refer readers to an alternative. I know if I was a developer, I would be annoyed if feedback pointed to a competitors product. I trust I got my point across here, using only common words and no diminutives. Common diminutives could be added to the dictionary in any case.
logger said:
However, for simplicity, blocking non words would go a long way to fixing the referral code issue, while allowing most feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The operative word here being "most". I get your point, but I think self-regulation would be better on the long run. I don't think the best way to fix an annoying situation is to introduce another annoying situation, even if it's less annoying than the first one; and I sure would be pissed if I was writing a comment and the Market rejected it because one of the words I used was not in the dictionary.
logger said:
It may be better to point out the shortcomings of an application, than to refer readers to an alternative. I know if I was a developer, I would be annoyed if feedback pointed to a competitors product
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would be too, but honestly: I don't write comments to please developers, I do it to give other users good advice. Isn't that precisely the point of the comments system?
http://www.appbrain.com/
If you refuse to use it after I've showed you this, or knew about it already and didn't use it, then don't start another thread like this. You have your out.
And please don't use the "we shouldn't have to use a 3rd party app." This is mother####### XDA, we use what we have to in order to get things done quickly and smoothly.
ATnTdude said:
And please don't use the "we shouldn't have to use a 3rd party app." This is mother####### XDA, we use what we have to in order to get things done quickly and smoothly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, let's leave the rest of Android users on their own. We're mother####### XDA, we don't care about things working right or not if we can make them work for US!
Who cares about the health of the Market? Who cares if it deters people from using Android? We're mother####### XDA!
ATnTdude said:
http://www.appbrain.com/
If you refuse to use it after I've showed you this, or knew about it already and didn't use it, then don't start another thread like this. You have your out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course we know about appbrain. Before you go sprouting off, Just read some the feedback comments in http://www.appbrain.com/browse/apps/?apps=free for example Shazam and you will immediately see they are not filtered and that the SPAM comments we have been discussing reside there as well.
Any yes I have asked appbrain if they would consider filtering the SPAM comments from their site. Hopefully they will.
In this instance, I believe the market should regulate itself. There has been enormous growth and with it comes the BS. I'm of the mind to believe this will be addressed.
Legalize it. Don't criticize it.
1) the spam apps (those by Michael Quach, Zeittman, etc).
The easy solution: allow the users to filter out specific words and developers. Then, if a given number of users filter out a developer, consider him "uninteresting" and relegate his apps to the bottom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i agree.. i think the user should be able add any developer to their personal 'blacklist' that will just simply hide them from view in the market.
also, a more in depth search is needed. filter by keywords you want, keywords you dont want, categories, rating, total downloads, active installs, developers country, downloads to time in market ratio, etc, etc... i mean come on how hard is this to implement when your the top search provider in the entire world.
edit: also, this spam crap is hurting the legit devs. without proper filters or search, it is an uphill battle to not fail. i mean, how will the casual user even know your app exists when 50 apps above it and 50 apps below it are all spam.
I really hope the mods dont close cause this needs to be out there....
I am starting this thread to try to help protect the developers work from scammers....
I ask that if you see someone trying to sell the work of the devs. via ebay craigslist or any other site that you report it in this thread to help stop them in there track.... Hopefully if they see there ads listed here when they come to steal the work they will stop trying to sell it....
This money belong to all the people that has made this all possible....
This is the latest ad I have found which is just wrong.....
Android on your HD2 - $75 (arlington)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2010-07-27, 11:33AM CDT
Reply to: [email protected] [Errors when replying to ads?]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i can make ur hd2 phone dual boot to have winmo and android on your phone both in working order i do have everything on a laptop and can meet to show you my working device and mod your device to match it...plz text (469)-684-8218 or reply to this email for questions !! price depends on your location and how far i have to drive
•Location: arlington
•it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
PostingID: 1865976865
damn that is just wrong....and they even left their phone number...
http://cgi.ebay.com/HTC-HD2-Android...d=ViewItem&pt=Cell_Phones&hash=item3caf4d42c1
HTC HD2 Android 2.1 Installation Instructions
I am selling installation instructions for how to put Android 2.1on your HD2. I will give you step by step instructions on how to put a functioning Android ROM on your HTC HD2.
Android is what your HD2 has been waiting for. The current ROM's available are very stable and everything works-bluetooth, calling, email, text, data, Android Market--you just need to know how to do it!!
You are purchasing many hours of research condensed and compiled into easy to read instructions on three pieces of paper. i own the copyright to the instructions, and they are solely my research. I tell you where to go to get the files and then what to do with them to get it running on your HD2. Not breaking your phone and doing it right the first time is what this is about. I have created step by step instructions for you to read and follow, the rest is up to you.You should be up and running within an hour of receiving your instructions.
Please call text or email me with any questions you may have!!!
586-665-6669
I can also update you to the latest version of 2.2 Froyo upon request.
Other sellers may promise you Android on your HD2 which is only partially usable and experimental, but I will tell you how to install a fully functional, stable Android build.
If you are a seller and want to increase your HD2 selling price, let me help you sell for over $100 more per item with this advanced ROM.
We shall flood him with texts asking him to drive anywhere to install android. He ll loose his time and money
Sent from my Androihd2
that is just horrible! if anyone asked me, id do it for free and DEFINITELY tell them i didnt come up with this and give credit to those who did.
What these devs did is amazing and they seriously deserve the credit!
LAAAAAMEEEE!
I have had seen that on craislist add to, not to long ago but I have post tell all the craigslist shoper said that a guy who posted claiming that he could get android to run on HD2 for 40 dollar is a scammer, Cause I know it should be free and I have link the website to here xda-developer.
I don't think it right making money from other people work!!!
i suppose its fair to ask for money to drive to someone and give them a personal tuition on installing android and how to use it on your hd2.
i like to find information and figure things out by myself to do stuff.
some people arent very good at rooting out what they need to do but they are still capable of understanding something if someone sits down and explains it to them.
maybe it will bring some new people into the xda world. loads of people have an hd2 as an upgrade and dont know anything about it.
I feel that if credit is given freely where it is due, the *service* should be allowed.
Most people won't go put replacement parts on their car, and mechanics don't (generally) create their own parts from molten metal. That said, most mechanics also won't say that they DID create the parts from molten metal.
I haven't offered my services as a "phone mechanic" but if I did, AND posted links to the original works, AND made it clear that I was simply selling a service, would I be villified by the development community?
xfinrodx said:
I feel that if credit is given freely where it is due, the *service* should be allowed.
Most people won't go put replacement parts on their car, and mechanics don't (generally) create their own parts from molten metal. That said, most mechanics also won't say that they DID create the parts from molten metal.
I haven't offered my services as a "phone mechanic" but if I did, AND posted links to the original works, AND made it clear that I was simply selling a service, would I be villified by the development community?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's because people with no knowledge about cars should not tamper with their cars or they may cause some serious damage. Putting Android on the HD2 has no ill effects at all and does not warrant a $75 service charge or any at all. Something like this is as stupid as those idiots out there you see selling iPhone jailbreaks and unlocks when those are ridiculously easy as well and again cause no damage to the phone (except warranty voiding but that's to be expected).
hmm?
xfinrodx said:
I feel that if credit is given freely where it is due, the *service* should be allowed.
Most people won't go put replacement parts on their car, and mechanics don't (generally) create their own parts from molten metal. That said, most mechanics also won't say that they DID create the parts from molten metal.
I haven't offered my services as a "phone mechanic" but if I did, AND posted links to the original works, AND made it clear that I was simply selling a service, would I be villified by the development community?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please explain this to me - what kind of "service" would you offer? Downloading a rom build by someone else and extracting the file to a sd-card? And making false promises by telling your "customer" that android would be "fully functional" (there's no "fully functional" build out there!)? Wow very very impressive!!
And despite the fact that "your service" is based on the hard work of someone other than you (who really deserves the money), I am sure that this kind of "phone mechanic" wouldn't spend one single Dollar/Euro on a donation to the developers who made this possible.
This makes me sad. This makes me sick. This makes me very very angry!
My advice to the developers: Cook in a message displayed when Android is started making it clear that their piece of software is experimental, free and can freely be downloaded at xda-developers.com.
I fully second thread starter's posting - DON'T STEAL FROM THE COMMUNITY! DON'T STEAL FROM THE DEVELOPERS! And last but not least: DONATE DAMMIT!
ironheart said:
Please explain this to me - what kind of "service" would you offer? Downloading a rom build by someone else and extracting the file to a sd-card?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, that's a service. There are many people out there who need a helping hand even for the easiest things. (Ganz besonders die Amis ;-) )
problem solved
nevermind...
Damn, already?? You what guys you can't stop this, you'll always have these punks tryin to make money off someones elses back..
My suggestion: (if possible)
I'm just an simple 1st line IT-engineer, so i wont exactly know how to do this but there must be a way to find out under which ip-adress the person is posting from on these sites.. The chance he's a member here is probably very high..
What if we get this ip, and ask the mods to permantly ban this person... ??
Anyone know if this is possible???
I think that will send a message to some people.. But I think this is unstoppable. Damn the Pirates! Shoot them all!
Selling the instructions and packages to someone is wrong but charging someone to set it up on the phone for them because the owner isn't capable of it themselves is fine IMO.
It's no different to somewhere giving away free car batteries and charging $10 if you wanted them to install it. You aren't paying for the batteries (in this case the software), your paying for someone's time to set it up.
Regardless of how easy it is or how freely available the instructions are, if someone wants someone else to do it, it's fair enough that person charge for their time to set it up for them. The value of that time is up to the person paying it.
MMAwarrior said:
What if we get this ip, and ask the mods to permantly ban this person... ??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One of this guys is a member but as long as there are no personal and static IP's for everyone on the planet, ip bans are not working. You can block his region or his ISP but this will block not only him...
Hmmmm, ok so Ip bans are out! only one thing left to do!
Call / mail them meet them, beat em up!
Sounds like a plan to me! I could use the workout!
ironheart said:
Please explain this to me - what kind of "service" would you offer? Downloading a rom build by someone else and extracting the file to a sd-card? And making false promises by telling your "customer" that android would be "fully functional" (there's no "fully functional" build out there!)? Wow very very impressive!!
And despite the fact that "your service" is based on the hard work of someone other than you (who really deserves the money), I am sure that this kind of "phone mechanic" wouldn't spend one single Dollar/Euro on a donation to the developers who made this possible.
This makes me sad. This makes me sick. This makes me very very angry!
My advice to the developers: Cook in a message displayed when Android is started making it clear that their piece of software is experimental, free and can freely be downloaded at xda-developers.com.
I fully second thread starter's posting - DON'T STEAL FROM THE COMMUNITY! DON'T STEAL FROM THE DEVELOPERS! And last but not least: DONATE DAMMIT!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I could see this coming from a mile away. All this thread is going to cause heated debates and eventually name calling. There are always going to be people on both sides of the issue. XDA is place place to develop and share. Its not a place to combat warez or what ever you want to call "selling other people's work". Obviously XDA is against it... if you read the rules.
I totally agree with you on not selling other peoples work and not charging for "your time" but this thread is unnecessary. Its contrary to the goal of this section. Not to mention the already mentioned threats of spamming these sellers. Depending on where you are at this could be considered illegal.
mmafighter077 said:
I could see this coming from a mile away. All this thread is going to cause heated debates and eventually name calling. There are always going to be people on both sides of the issue. XDA is place place to develop and share. Its not a place to combat warez or what ever you want to call "selling other people's work". Obviously XDA is against it... if you read the rules.
I totally agree with you on not selling other peoples work and not charging for "your time" but this thread is unnecessary. Its contrary to the goal of this section. Not to mention the already mentioned threats of spamming these sellers. Depending in where you are at this could be considered illegal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you got a point, it's just that we are real appriciative towards the devs, and can't stand these guys making money off em..
MMAwarrior said:
you got a point, it's just that we are real appriciative towards the devs, and can't stand these guys making money off em..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I get you you... but I just feel if I want flame wars I could go to sherdog. haha.
ironheart said:
Please explain this to me - what kind of "service" would you offer? Downloading a rom build by someone else and extracting the file to a sd-card? And making false promises by telling your "customer" that android would be "fully functional" (there's no "fully functional" build out there!)? Wow very very impressive!!
And despite the fact that "your service" is based on the hard work of someone other than you (who really deserves the money), I am sure that this kind of "phone mechanic" wouldn't spend one single Dollar/Euro on a donation to the developers who made this possible.
This makes me sad. This makes me sick. This makes me very very angry!
My advice to the developers: Cook in a message displayed when Android is started making it clear that their piece of software is experimental, free and can freely be downloaded at xda-developers.com.
I fully second thread starter's posting - DON'T STEAL FROM THE COMMUNITY! DON'T STEAL FROM THE DEVELOPERS! And last but not least: DONATE DAMMIT!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you completely misunderstood what I was saying! Let me go through and disagree with your impression of me, one paragraph at a time:
"Please explain this to me - what kind of "service" would you offer? Downloading a rom build by someone else and extracting the file to a sd-card?"
-Answer- Absolutely. As well as educating the person and ensuring that any additional HSPL, radio, or WinMo rom was installed correctly and was appropriate for their hardware.
"And making false promises by telling your "customer" that android would be "fully functional" (there's no "fully functional" build out there!)? Wow very very impressive!!"
-Answer- Absolutely not, and if you would have taken the time to read my original post, that you quoted, you would have seen that I made provisions for informing people of the community and where they should go for more information on Android on the HD2.
"And despite the fact that "your service" is based on the hard work of someone other than you (who really deserves the money)"
-Answer- Back to the mechanic, I think this one has been cleared up with a battery analogy. Perfectly clear. If you need more explanation than that, I am willing to delve into more comparisons.
"I am sure that this kind of "phone mechanic" wouldn't spend one single Dollar/Euro on a donation to the developers who made this possible."
-Answer- I would be happy to donate to the devs if I were to profit from a service based on their work, out of appreciation AND out of capitalistic interest in potentially further motivating them to continue developing and improving.
"This makes me sad. This makes me sick. This makes me very very angry!"
-Answer- Think about it from a more objective basis and perhaps you can feel less queasy.
"My advice to the developers: Cook in a message displayed when Android is started making it clear that their piece of software is experimental, free and can freely be downloaded at xda-developers.com."
-Answer (even though I am not a dev)- That would be fine with me, possibly even beneficial, especially if the "experimental" part was emphasized to imply that there is some kind of risk or knowledge that should be had prior to going out and just diving into Android.
"I fully second thread starter's posting - DON'T STEAL FROM THE COMMUNITY! DON'T STEAL FROM THE DEVELOPERS! And last but not least: DONATE DAMMIT!"
-Answer- Again, I do not condone stealing intellectual property. However, I believe that distributing the intellectual property of others is not stealing. Ever written a paper? You quote your sources, but YOU get the grade. Your sources never (or extremely rarely) reap any benefit from your work of putting research and experience together to put out a clean, finished product. And donating is fine and good and should be done if you find the software useful.
RANT ON:
While happily chugging along on some of the stuff that I hope to release to you all, I've made a very disturbing discovery, which makes me feel almost like the Big Man turning green. Angry. Pissed. Greatly disappointed!
First some background.
Everyone worth their 'droid knows about the Cease & Desist letter sent to Cyanogen.
Many of us know the same happened to Conflipper from Shipped ROMs.
Rumor has it the same happened to samsung-firmwares.com
Yet it appears there are still people around who like poking at the beehive (yes, killer bees!) that is the phone industry and their armies of lawyers. Things that are GUARANTEED to piss them off BigTime.
I'm not going to drop list of names here, I hope their conscience will speak to them on a quiet night or something.
The morale?
STOP CHARGING MONEY FOR THINGS THAT AREN'T YOURS TO SELL!
HELP PEOPLE GET WHAT THEY CAN ALREADY GET FOR FREE!
Besides being against the rules of most mod/tweak/hack forums out there, charging for someone else's stuff is probably the biggest reason for lawyers to go after websites hosting 'official', 'unofficial', 'leaked' etc. ROMs: lawyers merely have to google for "premium membership", "costs", "donations" etcetera.
Please people, stop doing this, or there will be a time when Samsung, Sony, HTC, LG, Motorola, Nokia and whoever else will simply pull the plug on online firmware updates and start telling people to take their phones to the shop for updating, eFuse and all. Needless to say, the vibe of the modding community will suffer with it.
I was the first (as far as I can tell) to post about Kies test mode, I'm willing to put time and effort in making a tool to allow people to update to and backup ANY firmware using just Kies (no need even for a registry hack), maybe even use Kies update module on non-Windows OSes (well, those that support Wine), help with developing Heimdall, fixing the FM radio, etcetera. Please allow others and me to go on doing this.
So:
- Don't steal others' work only to lock it up and start charging money for using it.
- Be honest and open about your discoveries.
- Be respectful of the services you use, don't hammer them needlessly.
...and the list goes on.
RANT OFF
What's this all about? No need to pay for firmware update requests, use Kies and one or two simple, free tools (coming soon) to get them. Less noise in the forums about the inner workings, which could attract angry lawyers from far away.
That's all.
Well said mista, lets hope some take note.
i mean really?
I thought samsung-firmwares.com got a cease and desist because of having Samsung in the name and make people assume they own and are responsible for the site...thats why Samsung-firmwares made a new site with a different name..
Hmm, why mention Cyanogen's cease and desist letter in a post that has nothing to do with him whatsoever? It's not like Cyanogen was asking money for anything and the reason behind his C&D was entirely different.
As for Samsung-firmwares.com, they had it coming and got what they deserved (and obviously didn't get it at all, looking at their current activities...)
Case_ said:
Hmm, why mention Cyanogen's cease and desist letter in a post that has nothing to do with him whatsoever? It's not like Cyanogen was asking money for anything and the reason behind his C&D was entirely different.
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True, he wasn't asking money. I added him to show that lawyers can be set off barking at anyone involved in hosting OR selling someone elses intellectual property. I should have been more clear about that.
As much as I think that IP is just imaginary property, I cherish the modding community and their great work too much. I'd hate to see the same happening to us.
Hah! Just seen the new Samsung firmwares temporary page. This is just priceless. For those who don't understand Czech, they say there that everyone from Czech republic is blocked from the site and can't even register for their "premium services", because, apparently, "Czech people were spreading our firmwares illegally".
Edit: Sorry. As it was just explained to me by the owner of Samsung firmwares, the site on that URL has nothing to do with them anymore and apparently is someone's idea of a great joke...
Rule 8: donations up front are not allowed
to quote the mod "asking for donations up-front"
The phrase "if you donate you can have this rom" was never said Someone asked the dev what the public release date would be and he stated 3-4 days. I guess they always have to keep a secret when the releases are.
Seems pretty straight forward. However I fail to see how "established developer with lengthy public release list and contibutions to the scene, rewards the people who, with no pre-knowledege that something might come of it or with any purpose except to say thanks for the work you have already done it is great, helped him with donations so he layed out a beta release for them a few days early."
Maybe we need to change the official XDA rules or make an amendment or something that says. "If at any point ever you release something that does not leave every person with an equal opportunity to download it, barring complications due to persons being on differing Internet Providers, any threads pertaining to this download or the children of this download will be closed and will be looked into to determine if banning is necessary.
That way if any developer feels especially close to his biggest fans and wants to throw them a bonus to really show his appreciation he wont even think of doing any kind or pre release.
Edit: Can someone please post what rule the dev broke? Someone has already posted that he is well with the GPL and I am saying he is well within rule 8
EDIT2: I WOULD LOVE A MOD TO COME HERE AND TRY TO CLARIFY/JUSTIFY THEIR ACTIONS
damn that thread was closed ima wait to install it till its reopened
do not bar this awesome rom
lately i see that the xda team are coming down hard on epic developers. i wonder if there is something else going on...oops, i hope that no one banes me
BRING EPIC EXPERIENCE BACK
ericizzy1 said:
lately i see that the xda team are coming down hard on epic developers. i wonder if there is something else going on...oops, i hope that no one banes me
BRING EPIC EXPERIENCE BACK
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I don't think it is the only one. I thought I remember reading that if Hero's backedsnack had a public releases the thread would be opened here however there is definitely a great 1.3 public release, Rom and Kernel with many things other roms don't have and the thread here is definitely not open.
Wow. I almost mentioned this to him yesterday but figured it must've been within the rules. I know there are lots of different apps/roms on here that go out early to donators, so what's the difference? I assume it's based on him stating publicly that it will go out early to donators?
Glad I got my donation in and download link in my mailbox! Epic Experience is really the only ROM worth running on the Epic right now.
Funny how when I was in the Hero forum this was common practice, and even exposed to the staff here and nothing was done.
If you did not donate, you did not get the ROM until the public release was announced. I don't see why this is a big problem? People develop and take time from their busy lives to make roms, why not ask for donations, and give the people who donate special perks?
Because it's not a donation if you have to pay for it to get it.
Let's say you go to one of those car washes...you know, with the 16 year old girls in skimpy bathing suits with the sign, Donations Only. Now, you pull up there and expect a car wash, but they tell you that you have to pay before they'll even start anything. Not knowing how good a job they'll do, you have no idea how much you'd want to pay them so, because you don't want to pay until it's done, they send you to the back of the line until they make enough money to open it to everyone.
Say one guy pays $15 to that donation and, although the view of their supple, tight breasts smashed against his windshield is highly stimulating, they do little to the car but smear mud all over and leave streaks on the window. They're done now. Great show, but that's not why he came to the car wash. He regrets giving that money now because he drives away with blue balls and a dirty car. Not worth the "donation".
Donations are something given for products/services received up front, otherwise, it's called a charge.
Now take that car wash, ask for a $5 donation up front to have your cash washed now, or wait a week and have to deal with the lines (low bandwith) of being able to have your car washed for free.
Same concept. Its not a charge, its a donation. Because you don't HAVE to donate to be able to download it. The public will be able to download it, just a few days down the road.
I am not to familiar with whats going on as I don't use that rom..but from my understanding he does make the rom publicly available...the only advantage donators get are support and early access to the beta.
I do not see an issue with that in itself...as you can try the rom and everyone has access to it..but with "betas" its up to the author how to handle distribution of it...
THE GPL states
"When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price. Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for this service if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs; and that you know you can do these things."
Aka he has the right to charge for distribution according to the GPL..but once obtained a person is free to share the beta to everyone else if they choose.
I personally do not see a problem in that respect..of course if its a violation os a different rule thats another story.
scriz said:
Now take that car wash, ask for a $5 donation up front to have your cash washed now, or wait a week and have to deal with the lines (low bandwith) of being able to have your car washed for free.
Same concept. Its not a charge, its a donation. Because you don't HAVE to donate to be able to download it. The public will be able to download it, just a few days down the road.
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Again. It's not a donation, you're saying "This car wash costs $5."
We have a vending machine at work. It costs 60 cents for a candy bar. But if we wait a month or so, they'll be placed on the kitchen table for free. Is that 60 cents a donation or a cost?
Just because it will be free later does not mean it's not a cost now.
This is okay with me: "Hey, I'm charging whatever you want to pay to get my ROM before anyone else! After I release it to the general public, they can feel free to donate what they feel it's worth."
That is apparently not okay with XDA which is the whole point of the thread. I didn't want to get too far off topic with semantics and my personal feelings.
Grow up xda
Want my advice, of course not but I will post it anyway cause I am waiting for a 30 minute rip file and dont need to read on the can.
Slap him on the wrist, remind him of the rule and move the hell on. This is a DEV doing good things. I dont agree with your rule, all he did was post a day or two early for his supporters, its not like a public release was not coming at all. But I do agree that if you have a rule you then need to enforce it or think about changing the stupid thing.
Seems to me like XDA is becoming a little too militant. Thats all right, these forum sites come and go with change.
Last thing.
I hate criticizing or supporting rules without exposing loopholes (Lawful Neutral with evil tendencies). Here's what I would do as the dev.
1. Follow the friggin' rules.
2. Make a post such as "Having troubles with the newest Beta for XXX ROM"
3. Ardent followers will recognize that ROM and ask why they don't have it
4. The OP (secondary account for the dev or a friend) will explain it's a paid beta (or "required donation" beta if you prefer) of XXXX user's ROM and can contact him here: [email protected] or however you guys do it.
5. "BUT I DON'T WANNA PAY!!!" Well, I think the dev mentioned it will be open to all on XX/XX/XXXX and he'll make a post when it's freely available as per the rules.
Ta-da. Totally within the rules to ask for assistance on ROMs even when others may or may not have them.
And don't lie. Ever. There is never a reason to lie. Dev, put a small, easily noticed and easily fixed bug in your ROM so it's a legitimate post.
People willing to buy an early beta are happy. XDA is happy. Moderators are happy.
othan1 said:
Again. It's not a donation, you're saying "This car wash costs $5."
We have a vending machine at work. It costs 60 cents for a candy bar. But if we wait a month or so, they'll be placed on the kitchen table for free. Is that 60 cents a donation or a cost?
Just because it will be free later does not mean it's not a cost now.
This is okay with me: "Hey, I'm charging whatever you want to pay to get my ROM before anyone else! After I release it to the general public, they can feel free to donate what they feel it's worth."
That is apparently not okay with XDA which is the whole point of the thread. I didn't want to get too far off topic with semantics and my personal feelings.
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Hi will i normally agree with you and take a pretty strict stance on the line between donation and cost. In this rom situation I do not agree. First off yes you are paying for that candy bar. However most car washes like that call it a donation because the driver picks the amount. So the only important thing we can take from that example is that for it to be a donation the donator has to have full control over the amount he wants to give.
Also the car wash is a pretty poor analogy with way to many holes to be meaningful. That car wash doesn't have a previous track record of being free but just for this one superwash you get it a little early. In addition, the car wash doesn't have a set release schedule for a stated timetable. Also another reason for the carwash it is called a donation is becuase you are directly giving money to some "charity" whether it be a real charity or a made up one like giving money so we can go to volleyball state championship. Either way you are donating money to that "charity" then they are washing your car sexily. Lastly the solicit the car wash "cost" of a donation up front.
The most important thing though is to look at the situation. Go back anytime last month and look at the state of things. The first thing the dev did was release a rom to the forums, it started gaining in popularity. Then he released some updates, bugfixes and general tweaks. The rom kept getting better and better and faithful users decided that they wanted to inspire the dev to keep up his good work so numurous people, me included, donated. Now I have only been moved to donated 3 times before, to the xda site, and since I was on a touchpro2 to NRG and MightyMike. In every instance I have donated because the people have provided with a very good product that has greatly improved my experience on my phone. Back to the story, We all donated, the dev never asked for it as payment to the rom, the roms were always available, heck there is nearly a 2 month back catalog, and I am sure there are people out there that will swear that each and every release has the best battery, or the best that, etc. So now the dev has a huge update, He has never publicly stated that he is releasing the rom as an early release and an awesome email ends up in my inbox, which can be considered nothing more than a thank you for your support. He has never stated that he is going to continue releasing roms early to donators or if it is a one time deal. Unless the dev makes a statement about it the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that he will continue to release his rom normally but if he has a huge .1 update then maybe those "benchmark" roms will be release a little early. Since that is the current case.
If someone was to put up a phantom thread with no downloads and start asking for donations for proposed things, get rid of them. That is clearly not the case here.
I don't agree with xda in this.. schizo is a great dev with a great rom and it is fully available to the public for free. Schizo never even brought up the new release in his thread until the donators thanked him for it. Bad move xda for coming down on a dev that's just taking care of his loyal supporters.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
I have no prob with early releases, but him posting in his thread about the features of an unreleased public rom is considered a teaser and that is why the mods shut him down.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
othan1 said:
Last thing.
I hate criticizing or supporting rules without exposing loopholes (Lawful Neutral with evil tendencies). Here's what I would do as the dev.
1. Follow the friggin' rules.
2. Make a post such as "Having troubles with the newest Beta for XXX ROM"
3. Ardent followers will recognize that ROM and ask why they don't have it
4. The OP (secondary account for the dev or a friend) will explain it's a paid beta (or "required donation" beta if you prefer) of XXXX user's ROM and can contact him here: [email protected] or however you guys do it.
5. "BUT I DON'T WANNA PAY!!!" Well, I think the dev mentioned it will be open to all on XX/XX/XXXX and he'll make a post when it's freely available as per the rules.
Ta-da. Totally within the rules to ask for assistance on ROMs even when others may or may not have them.
And don't lie. Ever. There is never a reason to lie. Dev, put a small, easily noticed and easily fixed bug in your ROM so it's a legitimate post.
People willing to buy an early beta are happy. XDA is happy. Moderators are happy.
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Thats exactly what happened in the thread, and exactly the point I was trying to get across.
He never said 'donate and you'll get the early releases!!'
The mods on here are independent people and pretty much do whatever the hell they want, so the mod in the Epic forum might be more tight-holed than the one in say, the Hero forum. Where donate-to-get early is the norm.
Well I truly hope the rules at xda are changed or reworded becuase if things are continually enforced that are not in the rules that sounds like a military state.
Man! Speaking of rules I hope ur like 16-17 yourself. Otherwise those are some pedophile type hypotheticals.... lol!
othan1 said:
Because it's not a donation if you have to pay for it to get it.
Let's say you go to one of those car washes...you know, with the 16 year old girls in skimpy bathing suits with the sign, Donations Only. Now, you pull up there and expect a car wash, but they tell you that you have to pay before they'll even start anything. Not knowing how good a job they'll do, you have no idea how much you'd want to pay them so, because you don't want to pay until it's done, they send you to the back of the line until they make enough money to open it to everyone.
Say one guy pays $15 to that donation and, although the view of their supple, tight breasts smashed against his windshield is highly stimulating, they do little to the car but smear mud all over and leave streaks on the window. They're done now. Great show, but that's not why he came to the car wash. He regrets giving that money now because he drives away with blue balls and a dirty car. Not worth the "donation".
Donations are something given for products/services received up front, otherwise, it's called a charge.
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Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Rather then changing the rules..I think they should set a presidents on what way it would be considered ok to do this.
One comment on something that was said in the thread that got closed. A few posters there complained about charging for something that's GPL'ed. Actually, it's totally, unambiguously, and 100% legal to charge for things that are GPL'ed. It's also totally, unambiguously, and 100% legal for anyone who acquires a copy of it to turn around and redistribute it -- for free, or for money.
The GPL2 requires that Schiz license his changes under the same terms. So, anybody who donates and downloads the beta release acquires a license to use it under the GPL2. Likewise, the GPL2 requires that Schiz make the source available to those specific users. The GPL2 does NOT require that Schiz bend over backwards to immediately make his changes instantly available for free to the general public. Or ever make them available for free to the general public at all. Officially, you don't become a licensee of Schiz' changes until you either a) donate, and download it from him, or b) he posts it publicly and you download it from wherever he puts it. HOWEVER, the GPL2 also entitles anyone who acquires a copy of Schiz's changes to redistribute them independently of Schiz.
That's the check and balance. If 10 users feel poor/stingy and want to split the cost of a donation so one can grab it and give copies to everyone else, it's 100% legit and legal under the GPL. It would be equally legal for Schiz to get mad and refuse to answer questions from anyone he caught doing that, because the GPL only conveys the right to obtain the source and redistribute it. The GPL conveys no right to tech support. The fact that something is legal doesn't necessarily mean others have to regard it as good and morally acceptable. You have every right to regard someone as an immoral asshole for doing something that's nevertheless completely legal. Big corporations do things that are technically legal every day, and get excoriated for it by Slashdot users on a regular basis
Suppose I use GPL'ed source to develop an internal app used by a major corporation. There's NO requirement that the source to that internal app ever be made available to anyone outside the company, since only the company is the licensee of the modified code. The only time the source has to be made available to anyone outside the company is if the app ends up getting used in an app used by the company's own customers. That's where lots of big companies get into trouble... they'll use GPL'ed code for years for internal vertical-market apps, then slip it into a publicly-released client app without realizing the licensing implications of doing so until it's too late.
Giving another example, it would be absolutely 100% legal for Tivo to charge customers $100 to upgrade to a newer version of their software. However, under GPL2, it would be 100% legal for anyone who paid $100 for it to redistribute it to others -- Tivo-owning or not. Where the GPL2 and GPL3 differ is that under the GPL2, it's entirely legal for Tivo to respond by making their hardware refuse to allow the upgrade unless you also present it with a valid license code. However, even in the case of the GPL3, the intent of the GPL isn't necessarily to enable anyone to take Tivo's software and build his own Tivo from scratch -- it's to guarantee Tivo owners the freedom to hack and modify their own Tivo to better meet their own individual needs and improve it beyond what Tivo itself is willing/able to do.
The point is that the GPL doesn't quite mean what many people believe it does, and in some contexts the distinction between GPL2 and GPL3 are very important. Android is actually Apache-licensed, but because it's inextricably bundled with Linux, it's effectively governed by the GPL2 as well (for the most part).