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Hi,
I need to read CellID and RxLev by my program. I have no idea how to do this. Could anyone to help me? Thanks
Unfortunately it's not been implemented by HTC, so the simple answer is no. You could try and use the SMS system directly through RIL, although because Cell based positioning is quite a hot topic and nobody has yet done it, I'd guess it't not possible.
Anybody know if XDAII has a working API for this?
Just use tracelogger, pwd is htc, choose MMI + Event then run the tracelogviewer provided by the XDA developers site you'll get your CID and rx Level
andyclap said:
Unfortunately it's not been implemented by HTC, so the simple answer is no.
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This is I would guess why RIL_GetCellTowerInfo always returns 0x80004001, which I belive means not implemented. (XDA I) But I might be using the wrong call... ??
If this information is available on the XDA II, then there must be programmatically a way through RIL, so either I am using the wrong call, or RIL has been fixed, or something else I haven't thought of... Any ideas?
Ben.
Yeah, it would be great if the XDAII supported this (Cell based min-GPS!), so does anybody know for definite the scope of the new RIL on the XDAII?
andyclap said:
Cell based min-GPS
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Click to collapse
You read my mind!
I think this might be why this information is so hard to find. This data, once calibrated (which using, say, TomTom, would not be hard) is a considerable asset, to which the various phone companies are trying to protect. Which sounds like a challange to me...
Ben
Yeah - O2 at least are marketing this info as a developer program, with a lookup charge "from 5p per lookup". What a bargain, considering the device already has the information (though it really applies to mobile phones that don't have SDK access).
Don't they realise that if they helped us create an app for them to do this and, say, link to multimap.com, it'd be a killer app and they'd sell hundreds more XDAs.
Good idea. They would get the GPRS service charge for the multimap lookup as well. Although I think the cell id is too course. But some part of the phone knows far more accuratelly where it is, so that it knows when to change cell. Although this is not yet an area I know much about.
I belive, if you jump through enough hoops, O2 gives grants for programms which enhance the XDA, there's a project for somebody.... If anybody can work out how to get the s***ding cell id out of the XDA
ben
Yeah - O2 at least are marketing this info as a developer program, with a lookup charge "from 5p per lookup". What a bargain, considering the device already has the information (though it really applies to mobile phones that don't have SDK access).
Don't they realise that if they helped us create an app for them to do this and, say, link to multimap.com, it'd be a killer app and they'd sell hundreds more XDAs.
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Click to collapse
The idea of the Location APi is not as good as what we want. The idea is that an office queries O2 servers for the cell location of the target unit, for which they charge the office (end-user). O2 are looking for software solutions that draw on this to provide added content so that some poor sap carries on paying 5p a hit to get back the rough cell based location of a unit. Bloody expensive as a tracker or SatNav. Might as well just stick a GPS unit on the back & send that data back via GPRS - cheaper!
O2 actually have a website with the info on their cell sites on it BUT they have 8500 of them at least, so getting all that info out is a hard task.
Site is Here
We need to crack getting Cell ID, Signal Strength, Nearest Other Towers, Nearest OT Signal Strength + I daresay a few more before applying that to a database, after which we could probably have a device that told us our position to within 100m, which we could then send back via GPRS, thus not allowing the network to charge 5p a hit.
That's why the Cell Location database is not available - they stand to make/lose too much revenue.
Wonder how much the database is worth?
It wouldn't be too difficult to scrape the site - while it gives no true positional information, it can return a list of cell towers within a radius (upto 5km ish) of a known tower, with their distance: we could triangulate three sets of this information to get the real locations of towers. Once these locations are known, we can recursively triangulate from them to eventually get all the data for the UK at least.
But, the main thing to do, as you say, is to find a programmatic way of getting the current cellId, signal strength, and preferably as much information about other local towers too to further refine the result.
Hmmm, just thought - as the XDA developers here are "jolly nice and clever people", they have supplied the source to tracelogview. It wouldn't be too difficult to modify this to scan for tower information messages and do the appropriate things. It just means that the users have to enable tracelog manually, though perhaps we could send some keyboard messages to start it up and enter the password. It's hacky, but it just might work!
Might have a go at this tomorrow!
Overview of Location APi as offered by O2 - taken from Source02 website
The first of our APIs to be delivered is the Location API which has been developed by our partner Redknee.
The service enables you to create and sell innovative new applications and services based on a mobile phone user's location.
The O2 service is charged from 5p a lookup and provides the longitude and latitude co-ordinates of the centre of the cell site sector the phone is located within. Cell sites are typically split into three sectors and range in size from several hundred metres in urban areas up to 15 kilometres in more remote regions.
Third parties are able to develop location-enabled applications utilising real time location data from the O2 UK network. Application owners will have the opportunity to validate their applications in a test environment prior to connecting to the live O2 UK network. Location information will only be passed to third parties who have a contract with O2 and have the consent of the end user to determine his/her location.
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I may be wrong, but...
I belive the telco and the phone have a different idea of where the device is, as they plot the position of the device using different mechanisms and for different uses. They use this when they have to contact a phone to send an incomming call. This application is making use of the telco's permanent database of the location of all their devices. This is easy money for the telco.
We do not have access to this data, and the positional information we can get will be in a different format, accept for the Cell ID. We will have to infer the position of the XDA from RIL, TAPI, AT, using the data listed in previous postings. As was suggested, getting an idea of the strength of local transmitters, and calculating a position. Which in it's self may be a real challange, as there is not likelly to be a linear relationship between the strength of the transmitter and the distance to it.
It may be likelly that the cell size (~200m, -> ~15km) is the nearest we'll ever get. I note that people in Dover very often get routed through transmitters in France due to the cliffs on the coast of England. In this case, any meaningful positional data is getting more unlikelly.
PS, can any kind person with an XDAII tell me whether the RILL call:
HRESULT RIL_GetCellTowerInfo(HRIL hRil);
Returns something other than 80004001?
Ben
PS, can any kind person with an XDAII tell me whether the RILL call:
HRESULT RIL_GetCellTowerInfo(HRIL hRil);
Returns something other than 80004001?
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Click to collapse
Unfortunatelly this still returns '80004001 Unsupported' on XDA II.
But the RIL_GetSignalQuality does return valid data when connected to GPRS, unlike XDA I, so some things are getting better...
Ben
Hi all,
i just saw a programm that uses the cell ID and convert this one °, but it just works with received data from any handy via Irda or cable.
So if u want to take a look visit (german site):
http://www.wolfgang-back.com/navigauss.php
That works but it would be the first way, to use the XDA cellID instead of external data...perhaps any idea on this?
With greetings from germany
Harry
Cell ID
Guys u can get the cell id using java.
The cell ID is memorized in the sim card and the mobile phone compares always whether the CID he is receiving from the signal, is the same one memorized in the sim card.
If yes the mobile does nothing. If not the mobile phone updates the CID in the sim card. this is done almost every 5 seconds.
Now we need the API !!! and maybe the AID of the sim applet. :roll:
Once more,
could the following be a walkable way?:
1. cell-Id could be shown (tracelog and traceview says how)
2. If that is fact, then it is with calculating gauss-to- longitude/latidude (visit www.nobbi.com) makable to view the actually position.
3. The last step it would be, to bring Information like longitude/latidude in ° to the standard gps-format (it is known or free i think) and send it via comm1 to all navigation-software.
4. So if this all is nonsens tell me because i am not really a programmer ( my code would be as fine as my english is :-((
bye Harry
Hiwi said:
1. cell-Id could be shown (tracelog and traceview says how)
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Click to collapse
That's right, but cell id says nothing about position.
2. If that is fact, then it is with calculating gauss-to- longitude/latidude (visit www.nobbi.com) makable to view the actually position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
see comment 1. Only O2 Germany transmits GK/coordinates over Cell Broadcast....
3. The last step it would be, to bring Information like longitude/latidude in ° to the standard gps-format (it is known or free i think) and send it via comm1 to all navigation-software.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If 1. and 2. would be possible this is still a problem since most (all) GPS-Software only accept input from COM-Port (you have to emulate a COM-Port ... not trivial)
4. So if this all is nonsens tell me because i am not really a programmer ( my code would be as fine as my english is :-((
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
:wink:
John
Having written a DLL to get the CellID from the XDA, and then comparing the result with the O2 cell tower map info as described by 'Puff the Magic Wagon' on Nov 4, I find there is a discrepancy of 10000
e.g. in a clients office in Blackburn
Cell ID returned = 3AAF( Hex) = 15023 (Dec)
From www.webmap.o2.co.uk Higher Audley Cell = 5023
This seems to be the case for all cells I have tried.
There also seems to be some Cell ID's which I cannot reconcile with the o2 map results.
mjgermain
The problem you've encountered arrises from the fact that there are more than 9999 CSR (Cell Site References) that are registered with the RA.
O2 identify cells in the following way.
AXXXX
Where A = the direction the transmitter is facing (directional transmitters)
(roughly)
1=North
2=South East
3=West
then 4, 5, 6 & sometimes 7, 8, 9 depending on how many transmitters on the aerial - always in 3s
So in your example 1XXXX, the transmitter is facing north (so should be to the south of you) but depending on that aerial (yours only has 3)
We then get to the XXXX
I believe that CSRs are allocated by the government and are a 5 figure number. Therefore CSRs upto 9999 are able to be placed quite simply.
15023 is correct.
However, what happens when transmitter number 10001 comes along? According to O2 numbering system, that 0001 number is already allocated. So they have to use another method of identifying cells.
Somewhere else in the country there might be transmitter that IDs as 15023 :shock: :?
So having a database of CellIDs and transmitter numbers is not all that is needed, the additional "identifier" is required and together that gives the CSR which has a lat/long applied to it.
The identifier is the LAC or Local Area Code
So AXXXX + LAC = CSR
There are still a few anomolies in this as well it would seem. Fill-in transmitters and "private" or "mini" transmitters the likely cause.
I had access to the O2 CellID db when I was last working & we were able to create a basic Cell tracking system, but the company went titsup.com before we were able to factor in LAC and signal strength etc.
Does your program work on XDA2?
I was watching the idiot box the other day and it indicated that due to the 911 phone issue and requirement, all mobile phones were required to be able to be located to an address when calling 911, and thus all phones were required to have GPS unit installed, is this correct?
If that is so, are these phones illegal in the US as they dont have one, or do they have one and we dont know about it?
In the UK it is possible to track a mobile phone, and is done with 999 call in certain circumstances a number of ways. But I don't believe they use GPS in any of them yet. the main way is to tri-anglated (spelt sommit like that!) where the signal came from, which pin-points it to a faily small, but not perfect, radius.
The US are normally slightly more advanced with that sort of thing, but probably use a similar system.
Sorry, I just read your post again, the located to an address might be what we in UK do as a Subscriber Check, which is how we locate the owners of mobile phones in the police in UK. It can only be done in certain circumstances again, due to human rights, data protections, etc etc. But does not locate where the phone is when the signal was made, instead informs us who owns and registered the phone, and to what address.
Great if the phone is a contract phone.... But with PAYG it's not always that simple... you can pick these up anywhere now, and some people don't bother registering them...
When you use your mobile phone it can usually communicate with more than 1 base station & pick the nearest, it will also identify which transmitter on the base station has the strongest signal. You may also move between base stations as signal strength varies.
This information along with the amount of time to send & receive a signal can be used to identify the location of the mobile.
If the mobile can only see 1 base station it can be used to identify the location of the mobile in relation to the base station along with the distance.
If it can see 2 or more base stations it can be used to triangulate location.
Hope this helps.
Mike
Operators are required to upgrade their networks to support E911 service and have (I seem to remember) until November 2006 to complete said upgrade. There is presently no provision requiring individual handsets to provide GPS coordinates - or any other location-indicating function. There are several initiatives being explored that, if they come to fruition, would require location-reporting functions to be an integral part of new handsets.
Many of the dumb phones (Motorola etc) do already have some kind of GPS receiver, mostly AGPS (Assisted GPS) where the mobile network provides time, ephemeris and almanach, and the receiver only needs to listen to the sat time.
But only the HP iPAQ 6515 and 6915 have a similar chip at the moment, other smartphones or Pocket PC phones (like the Universal) don't have it. With all the hype around LBS it won't take long, maybe two or three generations of devices, until this is standard anyhow.
The E911 compliance has been delayed over and over again, and will be delayed through november. To cite the late Douglas Adams "I like deadlines, especially the swooshing sound they make when they pass by."
Hi,
I would like to know if there are any registry value to change or modify interval time to refresh the cell-id searching procedure more often.
I need to grab cell-id with my HTC and when I travel in a big town with a hight density of BTS antenna I can found some cell id but I think there are missing a lot of BTS because numbers of Cell-id is low.
For example in France on a highway, coverage is one BTS every 2-3 kilometers and in a big town I think it is more depending of the GSM traffic (maybe between 800meters and 2000meters)
Regards
Richard
Richard, your mobile checks a certain number of cells (towers not handset) in the millisecond internal range (GSM Standard); this is true for when your phone is idle as well as in dedicated mode (during call/data transfer). Number of cells it looks for it decided by the operator and depends on the cell plan. you cannot control how often this happens no matter what, you can however control what frequencies to check but you need special software and hardware for this.
I hope this explains it sufficiently as if tried to not be too technical in the details.
Hi Guys,
I just did a quick search for GPS and found nothing on the threads.
Is there anything that could be considered a software GPS package for a T-Mobile (USA) MDA? I know that other providers have this type of thing but I am wondering specifically about T-Mobile. Now that I've updated the ROMs, etc, its the only thing missing from my MDA's second life.
Thanks in advance.
what do you mean software gps ?
as in software which just guess where you are?
software which by getting location info from the gsm antenna one is connected to where ones rough location is (pretty rough dont wanna use it for driving directions)
or just software to comm with an bluetooth gps device
I think he is refering to the 'assisted gps' thing which uses multiple towers to locate your location. You have that in iPhone, but I never heard of it for WM5/6. And, probably not in UK.
I was asking about something that does not require any additional hardware. I dont think a guess would work...
Thanks for the reply.
Thanks Hanmin. Exactly what I was asking.
I'm actually based in the USA so any suggestions would be great.
You have a higher chances of finding something, since you are in US (i.e. with tower databases etc). You may want to do research on the iPhone software and see if there are any PPC port of it... or is the software from Google?
many GPS software !
google maps, Yahoo to go!
Pocket Street.
all are working fine on MDA.
my TomTom works great!
I'm not sure if you got his question correctly, he doesn't want an additional hardware GPS 'mouse' for his phone. He wants assisted GPS
Even when your phone service provider has LBS service, depending on architecture of their system, there should be no universal software that is suitable for all types (Some use web-based query, other uses SMS query, or even Java SIM Toolkit, etc.)
Navizon is $20, but has a free 15 day trial period.
I have read that it is not consistently accurate, so I strongly recommend you try it in most of the places you plan to use it before buying.
This kind of software is particularly susceptible to errors cause by multi-path reception resulting from cellular signals bouncing off of large, flat surfaces, such as building exteriors. This can result in dramatic inaccuracies in positioning.
If you plan to use this from a vehicle, I'd recommend a hardware GPS dongle, or "mouse" over this software or anything like it.
Just my 2¢.
Thanks very much guys.
Just a quick follow up. I downloaded and installed Navizon and Myrddin is absolutely correct.
I thought "how bad could it be?" and honestly, its bad. While I was playing with it last night, it puts me about 5 miles away from my actual position so its not a realistic thing to use.
I'll save my $20. It seems like someones 2¢ is worth a few dollars after all.
Thanks.
Well, was talking to a friend earlier, and she told me government started to ask phone companies to put in GPS chips into cell phones and 99% phones after 2005 have GPS chip build in, so when we call 911, the government can know where we are... at first I though it's not possible, because if is it so, then there won't be phones that actually said "Build in GPS" ? so she said the phone companies just want to earn more$... and yeah I knew how cheap a GPS chips are nowadays... anyway even I though it was a joke or something, I look into it more, and GPS chips build into a cell phone by factory, required by law, seems to be true...
Read it on few other web page saying "Cell phone companies didn't originally want to put GPS receivers into cell phones. But several years ago, the Federal Communications Commission required them to come up with a way to locate their customers for rescue workers and 911 calls."
and "There is a small GPS unit built into the phone, This unit uses the GPS system to determine you location. When you call the cellular 911 operator this information is sent to the 911 system. Below is an Excerpt from the Nov 19th 2005 Milwaukee Journal that dedscribes the system and it's limitations.
Even in counties that will be able to locate cell phone callers to 911, a variety of factors, including the location of wireless towers, tall buildings, bad weather and even sunspots, can affect the system's accuracy, said Richard Tuma, director of emergency preparedness for Waukesha County, the first county in the state to implement the technology.
Two technologies, which work together in most areas, are used to notify 911 call centers of the location of cell phone callers.
One uses global positioning system technology, in which GPS-equipped phones receive satellite signals and relay the location coordinates to the 911 center receiving the call.
The other technology uses three cell towers to "triangulate" the coordinates of the 911 caller.
The GPS system is more accurate, Tuma said, and is capable of locating a caller within 50 meters (about 165 feet) 67% of the time. The triangulation technology can locate a caller within 150 meters 67% of the time, he said. Those standards have been mandated by the Federal Communications Commission.
But each system has its flaws, Tuma said.
To get an accurate GPS location, a caller needs to have a properly equipped cell phone and be standing outside. Being inside any structure, to some degree even a car, can skew the coordinates being picked up from the satellites, he said.
"The GPS system needs a line of sight to the satellites," he said.
Cloudy, rainy and snowy weather also can interfere with both technologies, and nearby tall buildings can throw off the triangulation system, Tuma said."
And I also see this software mologogo can unlock some of the GPS in phones in order to use it as a tracking device...
But since the Universal is made in the middle of 2005, it doesn't have the hidden GPS build in Chip, right?
Thanks
I think the triangulation method is more common for locating callers. The Uni doesn't have built in GPS, if it did they'd certainly advertise it as an additional feature!
Bad news for you - your parents fooled you when they told you Santa is bringing the gifts on xmas.
Don't believe in anything what's written in the web.
there is a slot but no radio rom
Hi SOG,
the Universal hardware has a slot free were you could solder in a GPS chip. The missing chip is a RFR6250. This builds up the GPS backend for MSM6250 chipset.
But there will be no chance to use it, even with the chip soldered.
What is missing, is an ugly hacked radio rom to access the hardware in a proper way.
Regards
Highc
I see! thanks for all the input guys~ I am gonna try to install trackme and see how it goes with my Universal and BT GPS
I use Google Maps
on a few devices. Universal is the only one that does not provide the current location, reads 'feature is unavailable for your device' or something along those lines. So current location has to be entered manually if one wants to get directions to and fro.
enigma1nz said:
on a few devices. Universal is the only one that does not provide the current location, reads 'feature is unavailable for your device' or something along those lines. So current location has to be entered manually if one wants to get directions to and fro.
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I have no problem with google maps and my GPS (although I have sto set manually)
I have no complaints with my gps. I have tomtom. I only need to start my tomtom software and take out my gps device out of my glovebox and press on. They connect automaticly with each other (eg turning on bt and connecting). Im only using gps in my car. So really i maybe only waste 10 seconds out of my life with my jasjar not having gps...