I have an original ROM O2 (UK) XDA2. Last night, for the first time, I tried the poxy MMS thing. Someone sent me one which worked fine (eventually) and his number came through in the international format, i.e. +447123456789. I clicked reply and sent him a video back. It didn't arrive. (But I bet I still got charged for it :roll: )
When I clicked to reply to the incoming MMS, the number that was in the 'To:' box was 447123456789, in international format, but without the +, similar to what happens when selecting contacts for the SMS 'To:' field. So, I did some experimentation.
I discovered that MMS don't get sent if the phone number doesn't have the leading zero (for the UK market). International-number formats don't work, even if the number has the + at the beginning. So, if someone sends you an MMS and their number comes through in international format, you can't simply reply to it without editing the number to UK format.
Does anyone know whether any work has been done on this issue for the new official ROM update? Either to rework the number so it's correct to the international format, or to allow incorrect numbers to get through the system to the recipient even if it's in international format but without the +?
As far as I recall, numbers sent to sms recipients, keep the + bit in them (this is under the NEW ROM - for the older ROM you have to enter the plus yourself, depending on how you searched and entered the contact).
But for MMS, the + sign seems to be truncated when sending a message (again, this is under the new rom, but I recall this is the case from the older rom too???).
Nevertheless, the message still gets sent with it truncated though.
So if it was still in your Outbox, then the number format is NOT the problem, but a network one instead.
This is confirmable by the fact that if the + sign WAS the problem, the message would STILL have attempted to send, but you would have then got an error message instead.
This strongly leads me to believe that your problem, is a Network or GPRS one.
Certainly NOT a number format issue.
If the numbers are not of the right format, the symptom would manifest itself in the message trying to send, then an error message being shown.
Not what you have.
i did have this problem when replying or selecting a number from contacts to send a message too, it always don't include + sign even if its included in the contacts, the only 2 work arounds i found to solve this problem is either add 00 instead of + for me it was a night mare since all my numbers are stored in international format even local ones for raoming needs so the other option to avoid it is the type the name in the TO field & an auto continue will show you a list of contacts with the matching letters then choose it from their, only then it will send it correctly even it it has +, i think its an RSU issue or maybe Rom country selection issue because i noticed when it fails to send a message it reputs the contry code like the following +44207 wil be something like 44244207 & no matter where i searched to find where the hell it brings this original country code i couldn't find it
Rabia.
The + sign being omitted is a known bug on earlier ROM versions.
The latest ROM fixes this.
But this doesn't have any bearing on the OP's problem, in that for MMS, the software seems to drop the + in the address field anyway, but still manages to get through fine.
And if the problem WAS one of the number format, this would be shown in the form of an error message saying the message could not be delivered.
As the OP is not getting this, and the message seems to be just sitting in his Outbox, I suspect a completely different problem perhaps.
i have worked with operators because of my business nature & from my understanding also that someoperators will recognize the international codes without even 00 or + & some will not so here you go i got multiple problems to contibute in this :shock:
Shadamehr said:
As the OP is not getting this, and the message seems to be just sitting in his Outbox, I suspect a completely different problem perhaps.
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Click to collapse
No no, perhaps I didn't explain properly. As far as the XDA2 is concerned, the message has gone, but it never arrives at the destination. So the network is losing the MMS because it's not properly addressed, but it's only incorrectly addressed because of the MMS software on the XDA2.
Hope that clarifies it.
It would have done mate, were it not for the fact that as far as SMS at least are concerned, if you send a text to a number that is not valid, or incorrectly formed or laid out, you get an error message to tell you, and you say you are not getting an error message.
So let me test this with MMS and get back to you. If it generates an error message, then it shows it is not a number issue.
Er I CAN'T test it as such mate...
Becuase just as I thought, and mentioned in my posts, when I go into the contacts list to choose a recipient for an MMS, they ALL have the + sign removed from them.
My own number shows (changed slightly of course) as:
447866123456;
In the "To Phone" field.
But if I send, it gets through fine. As it does with other numbers.
Which was exactly my point - that with the MMS Software (and this does NOT apply to the SMS application, which is very different), the numbers always have the + sign stripped out of them, but they still send.
So if your numbers appear as 447899123456 etc then if you are in the UK there is no reason why they should not get sent, as I already said based on number format, as this is exactly what happens anyway.
The only thing I can then offer, if you are in the UK, is that you check your regional settings etc on the xda.
Failing that, then maybe its time for that ROM upgrade?
Strange one.
I figured it was a network problem, but wondered whether the source of the problem (i.e. the fact that the MMS Composer application screws up the number for me) had been fixed in the ROM update.
MMS msgs which don't have the + in front of the international code don't get through for me, and I can't send them with the + in front because the MMS Composer app strips it off, even when I add it manually to the number to which I'm replying. So all numbers must be of the national format, i.e. 07123456789 and I can't send MMS abroad.
So, has this 'bug' been fixed in the new ROM update?
sublimatica said:
I figured it was a network problem, but wondered whether the source of the problem (i.e. the fact that the MMS Composer application screws up the number for me) had been fixed in the ROM update.
MMS msgs which don't have the + in front of the international code don't get through for me, and I can't send them with the + in front because the MMS Composer app strips it off, even when I add it manually to the number to which I'm replying. So all numbers must be of the national format, i.e. 07123456789 and I can't send MMS abroad.
So, has this 'bug' been fixed in the new ROM update?
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Click to collapse
NO mate - because as I indicated, it is NOT a bug.
Whilst the MMS Software strips the + sign on the display, it must still SEND to the number with the + in, becuase all of mine get through, whereas, an SMS without the plus, as seen by the bug in SMS software that IS fixed in the new ROM, does NOT get through.
Let me make it clear, as I have obviously not in my last three posts...
There MUST be something else giving you trouble.
Becuase for me, saying it for the third time, with the + sign not shown, it STILL works. And I am in the UK just like you.
Shadamehr said:
...as I indicated, it is NOT a bug.
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Please put your arrogance to one side for a moment, and stop SHOUTING certain words at me. There is a bug. The MMS software removes the + from the number for international-format numbers, even if I type it in manually to the number before sending. This is a bug. OK? :roll:
Shadamehr said:
Whilst the MMS Software strips the + sign on the display, it must still SEND to the number with the + in, becuase all of mine get through, whereas, an SMS without the plus, as seen by the bug in SMS software that IS fixed in the new ROM, does NOT get through.
Let me make it clear, as I have obviously not in my last three posts...
There MUST be something else giving you trouble.
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Click to collapse
I don't care about this. My testing has revealed one simple fact, as I keep trying to explain: when the phone number is in UK-format, with a leading zero, my MMS get through. When it's in a broken international number format, they don't. I want the software to send them with a correct international-format number so that they work. Thus, my question is: has the bug in the MMS Composer software which strips the + from international numbers been fixed with the new ROM update? (If you read above, you'll notice that this was the question I first asked... :roll: )
Shadamehr said:
Becuase for me, saying it for the third time, with the + sign not shown, it STILL works. And I am in the UK just like you.
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Yes, but according to your profile, you're with Orange. I'm with O2, and they don't work. No error messages, no failure reports, nothing. Just silence. Can you please just believe me, or do you want to come to my house and I'll demonstrate to you?
I appreciate your attempts to help, but if I had wanted someone to treat me like an idiot I'd have asked for that. OK?
sublimatica said:
Shadamehr said:
...as I indicated, it is NOT a bug.
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Click to collapse
Please put your arrogance to one side for a moment, and stop SHOUTING certain words at me. There is a bug. The MMS software removes the + from the number for international-format numbers, even if I type it in manually to the number before sending. This is a bug. OK? :roll:
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I'm SHOUTING cos you keep missing it. And now for the FOURTH time - it is NOT a BUG per se - got that - I'll say it again - NOT a bug per se, because having looked on a friend's XDA2, it does this for ALL, and yet works on his too. I'm sorry for shouting. If you LISTEN however, I can refrain from shouting. Let me be absolutely utterly and abundantly clear - I have no doubt you have a clear issue. What I am SHOUTING, and yet you keep ignoring, is that I am trying to tell you that the MMS Composer stripping the + sign out, is NOT the answer to your problems alone. Can I make that any clearer?
Shadamehr said:
Whilst the MMS Software strips the + sign on the display, it must still SEND to the number with the + in, becuase all of mine get through, whereas, an SMS without the plus, as seen by the bug in SMS software that IS fixed in the new ROM, does NOT get through.
Let me make it clear, as I have obviously not in my last three posts...
There MUST be something else giving you trouble.
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Click to collapse
sublimatica said:
I don't care about this. My testing has revealed one simple fact, as I keep trying to explain: when the phone number is in UK-format, with a leading zero, my MMS get through. When it's in a broken international number format, they don't. I want the software to send them with a correct international-format number so that they work. Thus, my question is: has the bug in the MMS Composer software which strips the + from international numbers been fixed with the new ROM update? (If you read above, you'll notice that this was the question I first asked... :roll: )
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I DID notice it first time. You just didn't seem to see my answer for the THIRD time. Let me go one bette for you, I cannot answer the question as you phrase it, because, as I have said, it is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a bug, so how can I say if a bug has been fixed, if it is not a bug? Moreover, never mind the ROM update, I have downloaded and installed version 1.6.0.9 of the Arcsoft MMS software, and this is still there BY DESIGN - the ROM Update version is only to 1.6.0.8 - so TWO version updates do not alter this behaviour - which I would have expected if this was a bug.
(And as an aside, if you want me to send you a copy of the latest version, even newer that the ROM Update one, I happily will)
Shadamehr said:
Becuase for me, saying it for the third time, with the + sign not shown, it STILL works. And I am in the UK just like you.
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Click to collapse
sublimatica said:
Yes, but according to your profile, you're with Orange. I'm with O2, and they don't work. No error messages, no failure reports, nothing. Just silence. Can you please just believe me, or do you want to come to my house and I'll demonstrate to you?
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Click to collapse
I have an O2 SIM too, or in between your attempts to keep correcting me, did you not think I would try it? And as I also indicated, my mate has an O2 XDA2, and his works too. Not sure his ROM version though.
sublimatica said:
I appreciate your attempts to help, but if I had wanted someone to treat me like an idiot I'd have asked for that. OK?
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When people keep constantly ignoring what people are pointing out to them, and better yet, even criticising them for SHOUTING becuase they are still being ignored, I COULD offer that tis is indeed exactly what you have asked for.
But in actual fact, i am very keen to try and help you, so I won't stoop down.
Once again, not knowing if you have already checked or not, can I suggest you check your regional settings.
Also, something else I noticed, is that using Outlook 2003, if I enter a number on the phone, the way I used to do it was like:
+44 191 460 1234 (for landline numbers with the gaps in just as you see them)
And +44 7899 123 456 for mobile numbers, again with the gaps just as you see them.
This nevertheless, still worked fine for SMS, and MMS.
Now that my trial of Outlook 2003 has ended, and I have re-installed Outlook XP, the earlier version, I now find, no matter what I do, that if I enter a number in the manner I prefer as above, onto the phone, when it syncs with Outlook, they appear as 44 (191) 460 1234 or 44 7899 123 456 in Outlook, and the same when sync'ed back to the phone, yet they still work.
Let me be absolutely clear however, the single only purpose for my post, which, in effect I am now saying for the fifth time, is that to the very best of my knowledge, and despite what you repeatedly think, and as backed up by testing with my O2 sim, and on a friend's phone, that as far as ArcSoft MMS composer is concerned, the appearance of numbers in the program's contacts list with the leading + stripped, whilst looking problematic, is actually NOT a bug, and for the rest of us, seems to work fine regardless.
I say nothing more than that.
Forget it. Can't even be bothered to read all that arrogance.
Do these forums have an ignore function?
Right then. Let me summarise, if only to give you an opportunity to shout at me again (even though I've been listening carefully all the way through this painful process). (I hope you're not a teacher.)
When I create an MMS using a number in the international format with a + at the beginning, the MMS Composer helpfully removes the + from the front of the number when I click to send it.
This 'special behaviour' of MMS Composer in stripping out the + symbol is not a bug. I'm not sure what one should call this, but you are absolutely clear that it's not a bug. It must be by design, huh? (Why would they design it this way, I wonder?)
Anyway, MMS messages sent by me in this way don't arrive at the destination. I get no error messages. As far as my machine is concerned, they have gone.
When you do the same thing, your messages get through.
You can't tell me why, or offer any useful suggestions for circumventing this problem. You can only keep repeating that I don't have a problem, this is a network feature, and that you're bored of telling me this.
Well thanks for your contributions.
Can anyone else help me with something useful?
(Shadamehr - keep quiet here. I don't need any more input from you right now.)
sublimatica said:
Right then. Let me summarise, if only to give you an opportunity to shout at me again (even though I've been listening carefully all the way through this painful process). (I hope you're not a teacher.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You may have been listening - it's hellish clear you haven't been taking it in though.
sublimatica said:
When I create an MMS using a number in the international format with a + at the beginning, the MMS Composer helpfully removes the + from the front of the number when I click to send it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes
sublimatica said:
This 'special behaviour' of MMS Composer in stripping out the + symbol is not a bug. I'm not sure what one should call this, but you are absolutely clear that it's not a bug. It must be by design, huh? (Why would they design it this way, I wonder?)
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Click to collapse
No idea, and I fully concur its daft - never once argued with you there.
sublimatica said:
Anyway, MMS messages sent by me in this way don't arrive at the destination. I get no error messages. As far as my machine is concerned, they have gone.
When you do the same thing, your messages get through.
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Click to collapse
Yes - exactly so.
sublimatica said:
You can't tell me why, or offer any useful suggestions for circumventing this problem. You can only keep repeating that I don't have a problem, this is a network feature, and that you're bored of telling me this.
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Click to collapse
Completely untrue you arrogant idiot - if nothing else I have indicated regional settings on the xda2 as one area to investigate, and written at length about the strange behaviour different from Outlook 2002/XP to Outlook 2003 - your arrogance and sheer falsitudes seem to know no bounds. It might not have been much, but it was a clear attempt to try to help. For Christ's sake, you'd think I was getting PAID for trying to help you, and not giving up of my time and effort for free to seek to help a fellow user.
Like I said, you arrogant swine - are you for real? And where the hell did I say you don't have a problem? You have an absolutely genuine one. All I ever said was that the MMS software stripping the + out is not the be all and end all cause of your problems. A fact which still holds true, and in its very own right is a VERY helpful piece of advice or information for you.
I am trying to tell you that what you see happen in terms of the MMS software stripping out the + sign is a situation that seems inherint for all UK users, and yet doesn't stop other people sending.
How the hell can you overlook that key fact, and tell me it's not an important piece of information for you or again overlook the fact that I am TRYING to help you?
On the contrary, I mentioned this way back in my first attempt to help you, but you completely overlooked it, and now have dug a fairly large hole for yourself, now that this fact is starting to sink in with you.
But instead of letting me take the shovel off you, and instead give you a (freely profered) helping hand out of the hole, you can do nothing but attack me, for trying to help you, and dig that hole much deeper for yourself.
I have done nothing but try and help, came out with a key piece of information, and came back time and time again to try and help more, and all you can do is treat me like cr*p. ? ? ? ! ! !
Well bonny lad, frankly, you are the biggest t*sser I have had the misfortune to come across, and if you think I'll hang around here for you to attack me more when I repeatedly give up my time to try and HELP you, you really do have another thing coming.
You can well and truly go to hell mate.
You sad sad soul
sublimatica said:
Well thanks for your contributions.
Can anyone else help me with something useful?
(Shadamehr - keep quiet here. I don't need any more input from you right now.)
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Click to collapse
Who the hell do you thnk you are to tell me that?
My advice to any would be helper to you now would be:
"Don't bother - you'll make time and effort to try and help him, and he'll treat you like a piece of cr*p for your reward"
Honestly - what colour is the sky on the planet where you live?
Get a life, and then look back at this event in embarresment. You should hang your head in shame.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Like I said, I didn't actually need any more input from you, Shademehr, but thanks for the laugh anyway.
Sensible suggestions from knowledgeable users on ways to solve my MMS problems (as opposed to just telling me the problem is unique and vaguely waving me in the direction of regional settings :roll: ) are still welcome - thanks in advance.
sublimatica said:
:lol: :lol: :lol: Like I said, I didn't actually need any more input from you, Shademehr, but thanks for the laugh anyway.
Sensible suggestions from knowledgeable users on ways to solve my MMS problems (as opposed to just telling me the problem is unique and vaguely waving me in the direction of regional settings :roll: ) are still welcome - thanks in advance.
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Click to collapse
You utterly arrogant moronic b*stard.
I've spent god only knows how long trying to help you, and offering to send you updated versions of the software to try out and see if that helps, and all you can do is take the p*ss and find it funny and say what a LAUGH it has been for you?
And then ask if ANYONE ELSE wants to try and help you too?
You think they want the p*ss taken out of them once they have spent ages trying to help you too?
Your not of this planet sunshine.
Thanks for the message saying "thanks for all the time you spent trying to help me shadamehr".
As if.
You f*cking d*ckhead - what an ungrateful arrogant b*stard.
Good luck. You're gonna need it.
mms problems
i am frightened to say this now, but..... i appear to have the same problem, the msg appears to leave me ok, it just never arrives. i havent managed to send any mms for the past month - 6 weeks since i changed from Nokia 6600 to XDA II.
Please don't be frightened, David - I'm not that bad, honest! :lol:
I discovered while testing again the other day that SMS messages don't get through for me either unless the number is perfectly correct (i.e. with the + included if in international format), so what I'm experiencing isn't limited to MMS. I guess it must be a network limitation.
I'm sure that other people reported that SMS do get through without the + attached when this bug first came to light last year. At least with SMS I get a warning that the message couldn't be sent.
I rarely close threads, but this one is closed.
I'm very busy this weekend, and have no time to read this whole thread to see who did what to whom.
Past experience has shown that text-based forums are not a good place to express feelings of anger and frustration. Please all realise that no matter how well we're doing presently, a community such as this is always more brittle and fragile than you'd expect.
Love, Peace & Happyness,
Peter
( dig it! dig it! )
hi, could someone confirm if they are able to receive and read html emails ok on WM5 with a universal? Do you get a blank email body or is it converted to text? I am running a BA with WM5 and seem to have a problem viewing html emails, cant see the body of the email. I checked on my pc and the problem emails all seem to be html. Plain text displays ok. Just wanted to check if they display ok with a final WM5 rom or if its due to the fact that the BA rom is beta. Thanks
HTML mails are still not supportet.
Yes i know they are not supported. But under WM2003SE if there is text in the email it will display the text only, under WM5 the whole body of the enail is blank on my BA. That is what im asking.
Hmmm. I received HTML mail, but it's usually junk so I never really checked to see what it does.
But I have to say, except for the persistant memory, I really like to know what MS improved in Windows Mobile other than break a lot of existing apps :roll:
The email app hasn't changed, the Word and Excel programs don't seem to work any better at reading native documents, Activesync is worse and less featured and the Microsoft bluetooth stack is still no better than it was before (still doesn't support advanced audio). Oh yeah, they added a Powerpoint reader. Oh boy :evil:
I can see the alternative text. I think thats the text part of the multimime message.
Hey Americano.
Try adjusting your manners when one of our european colleagues tries to offer you some assistance. That is what you were hoping for when you posted, was it not, ..assistance? Maybe then someone else will answer your question correctly.
Just a tip from someone who appreciates the time others can give to help when in need.
That last post of mine was not aimed at you DaleReek, but your fellow american brethren with an attitude.
efjay said:
Yes i know they are not supported. But under WM2003SE if there is text in the email it will display the text only, under WM5 the whole body of the enail is blank on my BA. That is what im asking.
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Click to collapse
I have JasJar and I can read HTML mails in Text Only...
DaleReeck said:
Hmmm. I received HTML mail, but it's usually junk so I never really checked to see what it does.
But I have to say, except for the persistant memory, I really like to know what MS improved in Windows Mobile other than break a lot of existing apps :roll:
The email app hasn't changed, the Word and Excel programs don't seem to work any better at reading native documents, Activesync is worse and less featured and the Microsoft bluetooth stack is still no better than it was before (still doesn't support advanced audio). Oh yeah, they added a Powerpoint reader. Oh boy :evil:
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Click to collapse
I quote u
mackaby007 said:
Hey Americano.
Try adjusting your manners when one of our european colleagues tries to offer you some assistance. That is what you were hoping for when you posted, was it not, ..assistance? Maybe then someone else will answer your question correctly.
Just a tip from someone who appreciates the time others can give to help when in need.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is this directed at me? Where in my comments am i rude? Please point out where my manners need adjusting. I merely restated my question as the response did not answer my question. If you havent got anything substantial to add why post?
If you would care to look at my previous posts you would see i have helped as well as asked others for help previously without any problems.
And for you information i am british now living in america.
@ everyone else. It seems my question is being misunderstood. Let me rephrase:
I am posting this here because JasJar users have a commercial rom which would be a good benchmark to determine whether my problem is due to the unfinished nature of the BA WM5 rom or a limitation of the email app itself. I KNOW html email viewing is not supported in WM5 nor in WM2003SE. But this is my scenario:
When i was running WM2003SE and i received an html email containing only text i would see the text no problem. When i receive html with images these are stripped away leaving only the text. This is to be expected.
Under WM5 receiving an html email containing only text the email shows a blank email message. There is no text displayed. As others have pointed out you should still see the text. I was merely asking what JasJar owners were experiencing on their devices.
I am fully aware that html email is not supported. I am fully aware that the BA WM5 rom is not final. I was just trying to ascertain where the fault may lie, with the BA rom or with WM5 in general. To all that have tried to answer thanks. At the moment i think i have my answer. Thanks to cchris and MBastian
To Efjay:
Let's end this, as it's not productive and as you rightly state. I'm not exactly posting anything helpful at the moment. But remember; everyones writing style may be deemed ambiguous and is therefore perceived differently. From your justification for your writing style, I accept that I MAY have been mistaken about your attitude and therefore should not have posted my opinion. It just read that way to me. If I have caused you offense...I apologise.
Now we've got that out of the way....let's get back to problems and solutions. Funny that, as I don't have any solutions for your problem at the moment. But I will post any useful info, as i learn it. Best of luck.
HI,
On my iphone I had an app for my O2 that allowed to me see how many messages and how much call time I had used, and how much was remaining. Is there something similar for the HD2?
Cheers
snerkler said:
HI,
On my iphone I had an app for my O2 that allowed to me see how many messages and how much call time I had used, and how much was remaining. Is there something similar for the HD2?
Cheers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This would be something that O2 would need to develop as it would be accessing secure servers on their part to look at your account.
For this reason you may be better of directing the question to them, on their forums.
As far as I'm aware not a single operator has this kind of application on WM (feel free to prove me wrong).
jrrigney said:
As far as I'm aware not a single operator has this kind of application on WM (feel free to prove me wrong).
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Not an application as such, but Orange do offer this as part of their 'Orange World' website, where you can access your account details including usage and call data. Not always as up to date as it might be though!
NeilM said:
Not an application as such, but Orange do offer this as part of their 'Orange World' website, where you can access your account details including usage and call data. Not always as up to date as it might be though!
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Click to collapse
Sorry I forgot that this is true, in fact i beleive all operators have similar websites where you can check your balance. However as for a seperate application (as specified) i don't think you'll find it.
I would hypothesize that it would be because of security implications and the fact that anyone can install anything on their WM phone making it very suseptable to attacks.
I agree The Orange World thing is linked to the SIM card I think, because putting my SIM in another device still allowed me to access my account details though the OW link that gets created automatically in PIE.
[Sorry Toby- OT ]
jrrigney said:
.
I would hypothesize that it would be because of security implications and the fact that anyone can install anything on their WM phone making it very suseptable to attacks.
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Ok, I didn't realise that. I'm guessing that accessing my online banking from my HD2 is not a good idea then?
It should be OK as long as it's still using https to connect. There have been a few questions about browsers like Opera, Skyfire etc that use intermediate servers to deliver your content, and whether they pose any security threat, but they've not been answered with any great conviction.
In general terms however, the WM platform is currently not susceptible to trojans and malware that can log your keystrokes so is inherently safer than mainstream PCs
Just send a blank text message to 21202
Neville.Holland said:
Just send a blank text message to 21202
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Click to collapse
Thanks, is that a free service?
It is free however it's only updated once a day so if you had 50 text's left at the beginning of the day you can't try keep track through the day you'll just have to keep an eye on it yourself till the next day. Not sure what time it's updated but guess around midnight so it can log all of your sent messages that day.
AvRS said:
It is free however it's only updated once a day so if you had 50 text's left at the beginning of the day you can't try keep track through the day you'll just have to keep an eye on it yourself till the next day. Not sure what time it's updated but guess around midnight so it can log all of your sent messages that day.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, thanks